Semi-retiring in your 30's

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mathwhiz
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Semi-retiring in your 30's

Post by mathwhiz »

Anybody done it? How much money do you need saved up?

Transitioning from full-time employment to a consulting/temp/freelance type work would be interesting. I could be my own LLC. I'd work on projects and then not work and travel, volunteer, pursue my own interests in between projects. A few months on, a few months off. Sometimes a year on and a year off.

$1 million at 35 using a conservative 2.5% withdrawl rate would give about $25,000/year. If you can get that much in income with the part-time work, that's $50k. Plenty of money to live on if you have no mortgage and move to a low cost of living part of the country.

The big problem would be the cost health care coverage. Not to get political but hopefully there will be some improvements on that front in the near future.
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tc101
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Post by tc101 »

I only worked full time about a total of 5 years in my life. I mostly worked part time writing software. If you live in the USA you are rich by world standards. You don't need to buy a bunch of stuff to be happy. Life is short. Do what you want.
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biasion
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Post by biasion »

This is coming from someone your own age who feels everyone should work until they either become disabled or die, whichever comes first, but....

Whatever you did, if you have 1m by the time you are only 35, especially given the dismal rates of return for most investments the last 10 years (basically your accumulation phase thus far), you probably have something very lucrative going on. Do you really want to give that up? Something that good doesn't just happen to you 97% of the time, you probably spent a lot of time studying, refining, learning. You just want to give it up like that?

What happens if both stock and bond returns really suck the next 20 years? What happens if hyperinflation sets in? There is no easy answer to AA either: conservative will not last, and aggressive risks volatility. The withdrawal rate and returns of early retirement play the biggest role on whether you will outlive your savings. Do you want to take on that risk? Imagine how much bigger a cushion you could have if you worked another 5-10 years, socking away like crazy.

What would you do with all that spare time at 35? This is the thinking of someone who is single and unlikely to be married, but what if you change your mind, have a mid-life crisis at 40 and decide you must have kids? You have a lot of energy at this point in your life, is your job REALLY that boring? Maybe spend the time semi-retired or that 1m finding another vocation that gives you better passion.

IMO best case scenario is find a job that is secure and highly lucrative, but that you also enjoy to the point where you consider most days are fun. Then you don't need to retire. Sounds like you have the wherewithal and resources to find it, probably would be better served by such a course than backing off so early just because of the risk you are taking.

And don't be hopeful for socialized medicine. Anything short of a life threatening illness in Europe requires copays, sometimes steep copays in excess of 20-30 Euros a pop, and the exemption, at least in Italy, is only if you make less than 6,000 Euros a year....

Lots of risk here. If it goes well you may gain and have fun, but don't give up your day job. Good idea to keep it so if things go sour and you get wind that you'll outlive your savings, you can always go back to full time.
UKbloke
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Post by UKbloke »

Posters above want to semi-retire early while not giving up the lucrative thing they have going on.

The way to achieve both is to become very good at things that build passive income: write books or guides, automated websites and businesses that are big enough so you can afford professional management.

Now find something you love that fits those criteria and you can not only retire early, you will never have the feeling you work too hard.
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Post by livesoft »

You have checked out www.retireearlyhomepage.com and
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/index.php , right?

It boils down to health care, spouse, and kids. Some folks don't care about any of those however. At the risk of being incendiary, some spouses are semi-retired and live off the income of the other spouse. That's a pretty good gig.

Also note that if you don't contribute enough to Social Security/FICA that may present problems later in life.

There are lots of folks with some kind of "angle" going where they don't have to work much. I know some tradesmen that only do floor refinishing outside of fishing and hunting seasons.

And I know others that wrote software, started a company to sell the software, hired others maintain the software, hired others sell the software, and they now go fishing alot while collecting moolah and thinking about the next bit of software they are going to write.
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johnoutk
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Post by johnoutk »

tc101 wrote:I only worked full time about a total of 5 years in my life. I mostly worked part time writing software. If you live in the USA you are rich by world standards. You don't need to buy a bunch of stuff to be happy. Life is short. Do what you want.
I really like your last three sentences and wholeheartedly agree. In the end, you should do what makes YOU happy. If you can live with your decision(s) then you shouldn't care what others think. Life IS too short. As Warren Zevon said, "Enjoy every sandwich."
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Re: Semi-retiring in your 30's

Post by neverknow »

..
Last edited by neverknow on Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Semi-retiring in your 30's

Post by VictoriaF »

neverknow wrote:
mathwhiz wrote:Anybody done it? How much money do you need saved up?

Transitioning from full-time employment to a consulting/temp/freelance type work would be interesting. I could be my own LLC. I'd work on projects and then not work and travel, volunteer, pursue my own interests in between projects. A few months on, a few months off. Sometimes a year on and a year off.
I did it. I was 41 (I was 27 when I set my eyes on the target). It was 1996. My magic number was $250,000. For the next 10 years my LLC was a bucket where I reported all income that wasn't W2 income. I pursued a variety of pursuits. I was profitable every year. I eventually lost interest. I guess, I finally had a big enough number to never have to put up with a lousy customer again. I wrote up my first business plan - it is notable because it is naive and very funny "Find customers". One day I was torn between finding a fax machine to fax off a bid (hey, this was 1996 and we didn't have fax machines in our homes, yet) and going to that job. That fax machine won. I was all done being someones employee. I had no previous notion I wanted to be an entrepreneur. By far, it is the best way to go.

Best of luck. The adventure is everything.
neverknow
neverknow,

I decided to use your last statement in my signature. Is this ok with you?

Victoria
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Re: Semi-retiring in your 30's

Post by UKbloke »

neverknow wrote:I wrote up my first business plan - it is notable because it is naive and very funny "Find customers".
neverknow
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Post by isleep »

I agree with tc101. Life is too short to spend most of it working at boring or stressful jobs and doing the rat race thing. I expect that a lot of americans are starting to realize this now, given recent history...

I have almost $100K, and that's not "enough" according to conventional wisdom, but I don't need a house or lots of stuff to tie me down. I live in a 1-bedroom apartment right now that's already too big for me, and I haven't even started selling/giving away the things I don't need... I'm confident I can easily fit the essentials into a van or small travel trailer, and off I go, never to pay rent again or enrich bankers via mortgage payments.

The health care situation is insane in this country, and unless you have great insurance and lots of money, there's a good chance you'll just get some standard procedure and put on some medication, then it's "next patient please!" I don't know who is to blame for this, and really don't care because I'm not into blaming, only finding solutions. So I try to practice prevention by taking care of myself, and if something drastic should come up where I need major surgery, it's off to Mexico, or taking a nice vacation cruise to Cuba...
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Post by MossySF »

Overseas, it's pretty easy to retire on less than 1M. I've in in China for the past few weeks looking around (southeast area 50 miles outside of Guangzhou) and it's pretty damn cheap. I could see myself easily retired/semi-retired here.

Some sample costs:
New 1500sf unit in upscale condo community - $60K
Simple Breakfast - 35 cents
Simple Lunch - 70 cents
Simple Dinner - $1.50
Expensive lunch (per person) - $10
Expensive dinner (per person) - $15
Clothes - $2-$5
Doctor Visit - $2.65
Physical + Blood Test - $7
CT Scan - $65
1 semester's kindergarten - $220

(I bumped my head and decided to get a CT scan to make sure I didn't have a concussion.)
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Post by socca »

livesoft wrote:...some spouses are semi-retired and live off the income of the other spouse. That's a pretty good gig.
Recipe for an interesting life:
1. Find a wealthy woman
2. Seduce her
3. Marry her
4. 'Manage' her money until it's all gone
5. Divorce her
6. Go to step 1
8)
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Post by livesoft »

I agree with MossySF about China. I am told a live-in maid is less than $1000 a year. A live-in cook is about the same, but it's cheaper to eat out all the time. I personally know it is cheaper to buy new underwear every day than to have the hotel wash your underwear for you.
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Post by Ron »

isleep wrote:I agree with tc101. Life is too short to spend most of it working at boring or stressful jobs and doing the rat race thing. I expect that a lot of americans are starting to realize this now, given recent history...

I have almost $100K, and that's not "enough" according to conventional wisdom, but I don't need a house or lots of stuff to tie me down. I live in a 1-bedroom apartment right now that's already too big for me, and I haven't even started selling/giving away the things I don't need... I'm confident I can easily fit the essentials into a van or small travel trailer, and off I go, never to pay rent again or enrich bankers via mortgage payments.

The health care situation is insane in this country, and unless you have great insurance and lots of money, there's a good chance you'll just get some standard procedure and put on some medication, then it's "next patient please!" I don't know who is to blame for this, and really don't care because I'm not into blaming, only finding solutions. So I try to practice prevention by taking care of myself, and if something drastic should come up where I need major surgery, it's off to Mexico, or taking a nice vacation cruise to Cuba...
Interesting thread, but this response stood out (but many others have the same tilt).

Have you counted the number of times you (and others) used the word "I".

It is truly a different life if you live for yourself. Once you have a partner (and possibly a family), you will see that being "self-centered" is not necessarily what life's all about.

When you start worring about others (whom you are responsible for), it's an entirely different "game".

Respectfully,

- Ron
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House Blend
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Post by House Blend »

livesoft wrote:I personally know it is cheaper to buy new underwear every day than to have the hotel wash your underwear for you.
That's probably true in New York City too.

(At least for men.)

:)
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Post by Ron »

House Blend wrote:
livesoft wrote:I personally know it is cheaper to buy new underwear every day than to have the hotel wash your underwear for you.
That's probably true in New York City too.

(At least for men.)

:)
Actually, we just did this on our trip "down under", last month.

We were limited to 20kg (e.g. 44 lbs) in the weight of our luggage/contents. This was not the airline portion, but the train portion of the trip (yes, they did weigh it, and those that were above the limit had to "carry on" their excess).

We purchased a bunch of "trash clothes" from K/W Mart, and as the trip progressed, we just threw away the clothes. Of course, the reduced weight was taken up by purchases we made along the way.

Having the advantage of being old, retired, and not bothering about what is "in fashion". I've traveled enough over the years to understand that I'll never meet, nor form relationships with my "travel mates" (much different than when I was still employed, in the business world).

Sometimes is makes sense not to buy the best, but rather buy for the occasion.

- Ron
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Post by MossySF »

livesoft wrote:I agree with MossySF about China. I am told a live-in maid is less than $1000 a year. A live-in cook is about the same, but it's cheaper to eat out all the time. I personally know it is cheaper to buy new underwear every day than to have the hotel wash your underwear for you.
Some areas of China are more prosperous than others but in general, you're in the right range. In this area (near Guangzhou where economic activity is booming), it's $125/mo ($1500/yr) for a 9-to-5 combo cook & maid. For live-in service (good if you have babies who need night feeding), increase by 50%. While it is cheaper for the wallet to eat out all the time, it's better for your health to have a local cook for you 5 days a week.

I'm working remotely using VPN + unlimited US/China Skype service ($130/yr) and it feels like a retired lifestyle. Work a few hours in the afternoon (too hot to go outside) ... then I go out at night for shopping, dinner, nightlife ... then come back and check in with the office (midnight China = 9AM San Francisco). It's a far cry from the daily 9-to-5 grind in the US. I am definitely liking this routine.
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Post by isleep »

Ron wrote: It is truly a different life if you live for yourself. Once you have a partner (and possibly a family), you will see that being "self-centered" is not necessarily what life's all about.
Are you saying it's better (more socially acceptable) to raise a family? Or is your point that if that should happen then the nomadic life becomes less feasible?

In the first case, I disagree because the high rate of divorce in this society tells me that marriage and family is a losing proposition. It's a gamble with a high chance of failure, which as a man you don't have much control over. I can buy a lottery ticket for $1 and I know my chances are slim, but even so I'm just out one dollar. It's not a big deal. But with mariage, the stakes and time commitment are extremely high, and yet the chances of failure are also very high. When you think about it, the whole game is rigged, as women have the upper hand from the start (dating), all the way through the relationship, and also at the end (divorce courts highly favor women). Now my life isn't about hating women, and it would be a complete waste of energy to actively engage in any kind of hate like that, but I'm highly aware of these things and so can't simply "fall in love" when I know very well in the back of my mind what the reality of the situation is.

There is also the matter of overpopulation. It seems that everyody wants to have kids, and I guess that's a great experience, but something tells me this isn't very sustainable. Some countries (frex china) have already started to address this by attempting to limit how many children a couple can have. In those places, a childless yet productive individual is well-respected, or at least not looked down upon.

Also don't forget that one of the tenets for our own country was "the pursuit of happiness". We're all different individuals, each responsible for our own life journey. For some that will mean marriage and kids, but for others it won't.
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Post by Opponent Process »

being childfree is one of the most unselfish things you can do, from the genetic perspective. you're still supporting the safety and transmission of the species's genetic material by your everyday contributions to society. you're just not passing on your own genetic material, thereby maximizing the success of others'.
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Post by Ron »

isleep wrote:Are you saying it's better (more socially acceptable) to raise a family? Or is your point that if that should happen then the nomadic life becomes less feasible?
Neither. My point is that is if one decides to live their life without any "attachments" to another human being for the rest of their life, then the "I" mode is perfectly acceptable. Being a hermit may be your goal but even a hermit must make plans for the future.

However, it seems that for the majority of folks (both young and old), somewhere along the way "I" gets replaced by "we", regardless of the social family arrangement. If so, then your decisions are (or at least should be) done understanding the impact/requirements of more than just yourself, regardless of current living arrangements.

To make any life decision (especially at an early age) without considering "possibilities" are a bit foolish, IMHO.

BTW, we're marred 40 years (didn't plan on that, but the possibility was in our plan :lol: ). Having divorced parents did open my eyes to many possibilities, and we followed a path that was not set in stone from the previous generation.

- Ron
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Post by 3CT_Paddler »

isleep wrote:
Ron wrote: It is truly a different life if you live for yourself. Once you have a partner (and possibly a family), you will see that being "self-centered" is not necessarily what life's all about.
Are you saying it's better (more socially acceptable) to raise a family? Or is your point that if that should happen then the nomadic life becomes less feasible?

In the first case, I disagree because the high rate of divorce in this society tells me that marriage and family is a losing proposition. It's a gamble with a high chance of failure, which as a man you don't have much control over. I can buy a lottery ticket for $1 and I know my chances are slim, but even so I'm just out one dollar. It's not a big deal. But with mariage, the stakes and time commitment are extremely high, and yet the chances of failure are also very high. When you think about it, the whole game is rigged, as women have the upper hand from the start (dating), all the way through the relationship, and also at the end (divorce courts highly favor women). Now my life isn't about hating women, and it would be a complete waste of energy to actively engage in any kind of hate like that, but I'm highly aware of these things and so can't simply "fall in love" when I know very well in the back of my mind what the reality of the situation is.

There is also the matter of overpopulation. It seems that everyody wants to have kids, and I guess that's a great experience, but something tells me this isn't very sustainable. Some countries (frex china) have already started to address this by attempting to limit how many children a couple can have. In those places, a childless yet productive individual is well-respected, or at least not looked down upon.

Also don't forget that one of the tenets for our own country was "the pursuit of happiness". We're all different individuals, each responsible for our own life journey. For some that will mean marriage and kids, but for others it won't.
Everybody has a right to their own opinion, but that does not mean I have to agree with you. I think those of you who are holding up China as an example to follow are sorely mistaken when it comes to a good way to go about limiting the population. The one child thing is not only a severe restriction on personal freedom, something not too uncommon in China, but it also creates some demographic issues for its people. If you are a poor Chinese person only limited to one child what are the consequences of such insiduous government intervention? I can tell you from experiences of friends who have been there... one consequence is that a lot of parents only want a baby boy because he is more likely to be able to support the family. So if you are born a girl or have any kind of minor defect there is a decent chance you will either be left for dead or end up in an orphanage. That also leaves you with a lot more men than women.

China may have some great things going for it, but it is still a communist country. If you want to speak your peace in a public square without recourse don't go to China. If you want to worship in a way that the state does not approve of don't go to China... or hide it very well. Chinese people in general are I am sure courteous and nice, but they are ruled by a very controlling power.

Now on to marriage and kids... it is not for everyone... so if you don't want the commitment don't make it. Don't make the overpopulation excuse, because it is not this part of the world that is in danger of being overpopulated. Europe's native population is decreasing in many areas, and the US is not expanding big time either. Just remember most of us would not be here if it were not for our parent's marriage... and though those marriage's were probably not perfect they were a lot better than the alternative. If you don't want the joy's of being a grandfather and having a family that cherishes you, I won't sweat it... but in my opinion you are missing out on what matters in life.
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Post by 3CT_Paddler »

Opponent Process wrote:being childfree is one of the most unselfish things you can do, from the genetic perspective. you're still supporting the safety and transmission of the species's genetic material by your everyday contributions to society. you're just not passing on your own genetic material, thereby maximizing the success of others'.
Your joking right? How does you not passing on your own genetic material maximize other's success? While you are not passing your values on to the next generation, some much more unenlightened fella is passing on his values to several in the next generation... who do you think is going to win that one over the long term?
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Re: Semi-retiring in your 30's

Post by danbek »

As everyone else has said, the wildcard is whether/when you will meet someone and decide to start a family. Of course, if this lifestyle is truly your dream, you want to make sure that the someone you meet is cool with it, and the only way to ensure that is to be living the lifestyle when you meet them.

If this is your current savings at age 35 (not a goal for 10 years out or something), then why not try it for a year or two? You are running a risk that if you decide you don't like it, or it doesn't work you, that the time away from a "normal" job will hurt your attempt to find a new one. If you've kept up good relationships (not as in lots of contact, but as in not burning any bridges) with current/former employers, then this risk is probably pretty small, but I'd want to keep it in mind.

Another wildcard is whether this is a good time economically to try this. Better to wait for economy to pick up? Or better to do it now, and figure that if you can suceed in a downturn you will be set once things get better?
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Post by VictoriaF »

isleep wrote:When you think about it, the whole game is rigged, as women have the upper hand from the start (dating), all the way through the relationship, and also at the end (divorce courts highly favor women). Now my life isn't about hating women, and it would be a complete waste of energy to actively engage in any kind of hate like that, but I'm highly aware of these things and so can't simply "fall in love" when I know very well in the back of my mind what the reality of the situation is.
Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:

Victoria
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Post by Ron »

VictoriaF wrote:Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:

Victoria
Darn. is that what happened (I don't remember) :lol: ...

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Post by 64415 »

Hi Ron,

I disagree that such early, semiretirement isn't feasible for people with families. The "we" in my scenario consists of a wife and three young children. We are in the process of planning just such a lifestyle, involving working 6 months per year in the US and travelling the rest of the year globally in a non-bourgeois fashion. We obviously will be homeschooling during this time with a clear emphasis on foreign languages, our goal is to have the children fluent in Chinese, Spanish, and German prior to entering a traditional high school.

Why work so hard for 30-40 years under the assumption that a retirement at 65 years of age will be enjoyed in good physical health? My wife and I have worked harder than 99% of the population over the last 22 years of our adult life to acquire our skillsets and have saved 30-40% of our gross income in most years. The nest egg we have now will be enough for our future traditional senile retirement. When I say enough, I'm speaking from the perspective of our commitment to cut spending in nonessential categories. We plan to cut our workload, income and savings rate in half and enjoy our children, youth and health while we have them.

Ron, Have you been to NZ? If so, what did you think of the country?
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Post by Opponent Process »

3CT_Paddler wrote:
Opponent Process wrote:being childfree is one of the most unselfish things you can do, from the genetic perspective. you're still supporting the safety and transmission of the species's genetic material by your everyday contributions to society. you're just not passing on your own genetic material, thereby maximizing the success of others'.
Your joking right? How does you not passing on your own genetic material maximize other's success? While you are not passing your values on to the next generation, some much more unenlightened fella is passing on his values to several in the next generation... who do you think is going to win that one over the long term?
I'm talking genetic material, not values. Not passing on my genetic material reduces competition for yours. It's a genetic competition, not a value competition. Or maybe I should say the genes take care of the expression of the values, and the highest value they code for is further reproduction.
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Post by isleep »

3CT_Paddler wrote: I think those of you who are holding up China as an example to follow are sorely mistaken when it comes to a good way to go about limiting the population.
Don't read too much into my example, it was simply an example. You can also find many dead children on the side of the road in india and other countries, it's not simply a result of a particular political regime.
Don't make the overpopulation excuse, because it is not this part of the world that is in danger of being overpopulated. Europe's native population is decreasing in many areas, and the US is not expanding big time either.
You have an odd way of separating this part of the world from the whole, as if such abstract boundaries could be erected in a permanent fashion. In europe, the arab/muslim population is working hard to more than make up for the decreasing white/caucasian slack. In the US, the latin american immigrants are doing the same. I don't have any animosity towards them though. I'm not attached to any particular race or religion being on top.

You might also find it interesting to learn what condiditions and suffering the animals you eat go through in order to support what you consider to be not such a large population:
http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/rese ... rview.html
This is a far cry from the pastoral and country life of ye olde days, and the situation is only getting worse every day. At some point, humans are going to have to realize that the way we're living is unsustainable. The question is how many disasters will there need to be before that happens. I choose to eat a mostly vegetarian diet not only because it's healthier for me, but also because it eases up a little on the environment. Not having kids helps a little too. Understand also that I have no attachment to this life, I'm just passing through. I have no need to leave any legacy behind me or be remembered in any way.
Just remember most of us would not be here if it were not for our parent's marriage... and though those marriage's were probably not perfect they were a lot better than the alternative.
Well since you never experienced the alternative (non-existence? another form of existence?) then how can you make such a statement?
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Post by isleep »

VictoriaF wrote: Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:
You joke but this basically happened to a friend twice in a row (minus the drink-spiking). In both cases, the woman left soon after the first child was born.

I've also seen "family guys" with several children and 10+ years of marriage quake in fear of losing their job (which might lead to divorce) or having to work long/weird hours due to crunch time (commonplace in the IT biz) and hardly ever getting to see their family for months on end. This also leads to divorce.

There is already too much stres in modern life without adding any unecessary shenanigans on top.
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Post by isleep »

isleep wrote:
VictoriaF wrote: Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:
You joke but this basically happened to a friend twice in a row (minus the drink-spiking). In both cases, the woman left soon after the first child was born.

I've also seen "family guys" with several children and 10+ years of marriage quake in fear of losing their job (which might lead to divorce) or having to work long/weird hours due to crunch time (commonplace in the IT biz) and hardly ever getting to see their family for months on end. This also leads to divorce. In many cases, they have specifically told me they were worried about trying to save their family (i.e. avoid a divorce).

There is already too much stress in modern life without adding any unecessary shenanigans on top.
Edit: sorry about the double-post. I meant to edit, not post again. I think it's a browser cache problem.
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Pres
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Post by Pres »

VictoriaF wrote:Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:
Aha! Now we all know what so-called "Adventure" you're referring to in your signature. :wink:
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Post by Ron »

64415 wrote:Ron, Have you been to NZ? If so, what did you think of the country?
My personal travel agent (e.g. my wife 8) ) did not schedule a trip to NZ.

Since she still chooses to work (was to retire at the same time I did back in early 2007, but still is not emotionally ready to do so) she is limited by her vacation time.

We had to limit our time to Australia only, this time around.

Don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

- Ron
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Post by 3CT_Paddler »

isleep wrote: You have an odd way of separating this part of the world from the whole, as if such abstract boundaries could be erected in a permanent fashion. In europe, the arab/muslim population is working hard to more than make up for the decreasing white/caucasian slack. In the US, the latin american immigrants are doing the same. I don't have any animosity towards them though. I'm not attached to any particular race or religion being on top.
Most of the world does not have the advantage of living in democracies that value human rights. The race of a person has nothing to do with this argument. If you see no value in a somewhat free society versus a totalitarian society, then try living in one of those places.
You might also find it interesting to learn what condiditions and suffering the animals you eat go through in order to support what you consider to be not such a large population:
http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/rese ... rview.html
This is a far cry from the pastoral and country life of ye olde days, and the situation is only getting worse every day. At some point, humans are going to have to realize that the way we're living is unsustainable. The question is how many disasters will there need to be before that happens. I choose to eat a mostly vegetarian diet not only because it's healthier for me, but also because it eases up a little on the environment. Not having kids helps a little too. Understand also that I have no attachment to this life, I'm just passing through. I have no need to leave any legacy behind me or be remembered in any way.
Obviously you have a personal conviction about eating meat, and not wanting to harm the environment. I don't want to attack your religion so I will leave it be, and just say that we all alter the environment just by living and breathing. Good luck with your quest to fix that one.
3CT_Paddler wrote: Just remember most of us would not be here if it were not for our parent's marriage... and though those marriage's were probably not perfect they were a lot better than the alternative.
Well since you never experienced the alternative (non-existence? another form of existence?) then how can you make such a statement?
The alternative I am referring to is growing up without both parents. As in people having children without getting married. Not to say that single parents are in any way bad parents, but to say that raising kids is tough and doing it alone is that much tougher.
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VictoriaF
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Post by VictoriaF »

Pres wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:Oh, these evil fertile women! They hunt for innocent single guys with stable jobs, spike their beer, and get pregnant on the first attempt. A poor guy is then on the hook for 18 years and 9 months, or worse. You cannot be too careful. :twisted:
Aha! Now we all know what so-called "Adventure" you're referring to in your signature. :wink:
Where I grew up, people used to say that you have to live your life leaving mounds of empty liquor bottles, crowds of abandoned women and in a way that every neighborhood child could greet you 'Hello, daddy!' (*)

However, I don't qualify for this adventure.

Victoria

(*) This was a parody on a famous quote from Как закалялась сталь:
Островский wrote:Самое дорогое у человека — это жизнь. Она дается ему один раз, и прожить ее надо так, чтобы не было мучительно стыдно за бесцельно прожитые годы, чтобы не жег позор за подленькое и мелочное прошлое и чтобы, умирая, мог сказать: вся жизнь и все силы отданы самому главному в мире: борьбе за освобождение человечества.
Last edited by VictoriaF on Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mathwhiz
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Post by mathwhiz »

This discussion about whether or not to have a family is interesting.

My father did not get married until his late 50's when I came along. For the 30 or so years before that he was single and basically worked 7-8 months a year running his business and then traveled the other 4-5 months out of the year. Like clockwork. Every year. He spent at least a couple months in Europe and the rest of the travel time was split up around the world. His favorites were the caribbean (before it became destroyed with tourism), as well as Central and South America.

This was the time during the 50's-70's where an American could go to a bar in an eastern european communist country and have the most beautiful women imaginable throw themselves at them hoping they would rescue them from the hell they were living by marrying them and taking them to America. And when he was ready, he did just that. But man did he have one hell of a life as a bachelor before he was ready to settle down.
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Post by livesoft »

So you have lots of older siblings who(m?) you haven't met?

яблочко от яблоньки недалеко падает
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mathwhiz
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Post by mathwhiz »

It wouldn't surprise me but my dad never told me about any. If there were any, it's doubtful he knew about them. If he did, he kept those secrets to the grave.
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Post by fluffyistaken »

VictoriaF wrote: (*) This was a parody on a famous quote from Как закалялась сталь:
Островский wrote:Самое дорогое у человека — это жизнь. Она дается ему один раз, и прожить ее надо так, чтобы не было мучительно стыдно за бесцельно прожитые годы, чтобы не жег позор за подленькое и мелочное прошлое и чтобы, умирая, мог сказать: вся жизнь и все силы отданы самому главному в мире: борьбе за освобождение человечества.
Now I've seen everything on this site. Wait, no, still need a good discussion of the asset allocation recommended in Das Kapital.

Back to OP, sounds like a great plan! Just need that $1M by age 35 :)
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Post by isleep »

3CT_Paddler wrote: Most of the world does not have the advantage of living in democracies that value human rights. The race of a person has nothing to do with this argument. If you see no value in a somewhat free society versus a totalitarian society, then try living in one of those places.
I don't want to get into a political discussion so I'll simply mention that the USA of today and its citizens are not at all the same as those from 1776.

Now regardless of all that, I think it's silly to believe that what happens in the rest of the world doesn't affect those in the US. Even if we were in a population stasis, the rest of the world's tremendous growth would more than make up for our slack. Every human alive consumes resources to some degree, and those in modern industrial societies consume an incredible amount (wasteful even). Problem: some of the resources we depend on are limited. For example, we know that pretty soon it's going to be very difficult to extract oil from the earth. When that time comes, you better hope that either you're long gone, or that we figured out some alternative energy source, because otherwise the results aren't going to be very pretty.
Obviously you have a personal conviction about eating meat, and not wanting to harm the environment. I don't want to attack your religion so I will leave it be, and just say that we all alter the environment just by living and breathing. Good luck with your quest to fix that one.
Oh I do eat meat, just in very limited quantities (and not every day). For many tens of thousands of years before agriculture, our ancestors were omnivores. I consider it natural to eat meat, but the stuff that's sold on the market these days isn't at all the same as wild meat. It's not very healthy for you and it's not good for the animals. I don't follow any religion, and consider only what's natural, healthy and sustainable.

But don't focus so much on my personal preferences because you'll miss the gist of my message. Read the white paper I linked to, and think about how absurd the present food situation is, and then try to imagine how much worse it will get if our population grows to any great degree, unless we change our ways.
The alternative I am referring to is growing up without both parents. As in people having children without getting married. Not to say that single parents are in any way bad parents, but to say that raising kids is tough and doing it alone is that much tougher.
What did humans do before institutions like marriage and religions came about? I very much doubt there were nearly as many single parents as today, because there was no system in place to reward women who chose to go off on their own.
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Post by Quasimodo »

I used to daydream about being really wealthy, and helping many worthy causes. As I've gotten older, I've come to believe me being rich with time on my hands would more likely involve a lot of empty liquor bottles and regrets.

It's a terrifying thought, but having something useful to do or at least a job to go to might be the only thing keeping me sane. My wife can probably handle retirement in a happy, positive way. I have my doubts that I could.

John
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Karl
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Post by Karl »

Maybe women would find me much more fascinating if I were retired at 36.

Would sound better than the reality of so screwed up by anxiety that there's no way I could work. They'd just have be really stupid to not figure out that reality real fast.

I have near $1.2M, which isn't much money. I hear talk about deflation, but can never find these falling prices when I shop.
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Post by mathwhiz »

$1.2 million is a lot of money, especially if you are single.

It's about $30,000 a year at 2.5% withdrawal rate and if you are single and don't care about leaving anything behind you could take more out as needed.

The key is minimizing expenses. Owning a small home or condo free and clear with low maintenance charges. Living in a no state income tax state and low cost of living area. That makes the $30,000/year feel like a lot more.
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Post by livesoft »

It's been many years since I lived on the south side of $30K.

Also paying for your own health insurance/care makes $30K feel like a lot less. I have $20K in medical bills from playing basketball of which I only have to pay the $20 co-pay.

Of course, you can go without health insurance. "You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
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Post by mathwhiz »

Of course, you can go without health insurance. "You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
There are options if you don't have health insurance. The medical tourist hospitals in Thailand cost you one tenth of what a comparable facility would cost in the U.S. and according to many reviews the care is just as good if not better.
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Post by livesoft »

I have gotten free health care in Germany and France. I have seen medical tourists in South Africa. I am not too concerned about breast enhancement and a nose job.

To me health care is when you are dying of influenza and don't have time to fly to Thailand (even if they would allow it). Or maybe someone knocked you over in a basketball game and broke a few of your bones. I've played basketball in Beijing, but mostly I played in the US.

Of course, maybe I could move to Massachusetts the day after I get sick and then get treated. Apparently, this happens. See this article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124726287099225209.html
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Post by mathwhiz »

Then get a catastrophic plan with surgical and hospital coverage only.
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Post by Arby »

tc101 wrote:You don't need to buy a bunch of stuff to be happy. Life is short. Do what you want.
That's my philosophy too! :D
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Post by jh »

...
Last edited by jh on Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by VictoriaF »

jh wrote:If you have the money, retiring now will may work out well. My opinion is that the standard of living in the US is going to be on a steady permanent decline until it reaches parity with poorer countries. So, you may find your assets appreciating a great deal in relation to the cost of living as time goes on.
jh,

This is an interesting point. I also think that globalization ("flat world") will eventually remove extreme differences between countries, e.g., not only jobs are moving abroad but also essential services such as health care ("medical tourism").

But what you are saying seems to go farther. Do you mean that with passing years U.S. housing, local services, items for sale, etc., will be getting cheaper? Is that equivalent to a long-term deflation or just affordability?

Victoria
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Post by Paladin »

livesoft wrote:It's been many years since I lived on the south side of $30K.

Also paying for your own health insurance/care makes $30K feel like a lot less. I have $20K in medical bills from playing basketball of which I only have to pay the $20 co-pay.

Of course, you can go without health insurance. "You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
Or not play basketball and run up $20K in medical bills!
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