Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

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calimero
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Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

I changed employer and face now the question on what to do with old 401k. I guess my options are to keep as is or move it to new employer.
Are there any gotchas to consider?

I guess, the answer I will get is to compare investment options and costs. My old plan was with Alight. My new with Fidelity
Is there a tool/database that compares 401k's? My alight options are generic (don't know the actual fund)
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Duckie
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Re: Cahnged employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:45 am I changed employer and face now the question on what to do with old 401k. I guess my options are to keep as is or move it to new employer.
The third option is to roll the old 401k into a Rollover IRA.
Are there any gotchas to consider?
Although most employer plans allow incoming rollovers, not all do. Check with your new employer plan to make sure.
A Rollover IRA will get in the way of the backdoor Roth method.
I guess, the answer I will get is to compare investment options and costs. My old plan was with Alight. My new with Fidelity
Is there a tool/database that compares 401k's?
No. You will need to manually compare the options at the old plan with the options at the new plan. You really only need two or three decent low-cost options even if everything else is crazy expensive. You need especially to know the plan expense ratios and if there are any maintenance fees. Sometimes fees are covered for current employees but not for former employees.
My alight options are generic (don't know the actual fund)
On your former employer's Alight retirement plan website there must be some type of fact sheet for each fund that details what type of assets the fund holds and probably what the benchmarks are.
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calimero
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Re: Cahnged employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

thanks!

After some more searching I came across this site: https://www.myplaniq.com
I don't know how accurate it is. But they have info for both of my employers.

Here is for my old employer: I am not sure whether they really invested into those funds. e.g. VEIEX for diversified emerging. That is the info alight didn't disclose. So, I don't know whether myplaniq is correct.


Asset Class Ticker Description
Emerging Market
DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS VEIEX Non-U.S.Emerging Markets Stock
INTERNATIONAL EQUITY
Foreign Large Value ADRD Non-U.S.Developed Markets Stock
US EQUITY
US Large Cap VFINX U.S.Large Cap Stock
SMALL BLEND LZSCX U.S.Small-Mid Cap Stock
FIXED INCOME
SHORT GOVERNMENT STABLEVALUE Stable Value
Intermediate-Term Bond VBMFX Core Bond
High Yield Bond VWEHX High-Yield Bond
Other
Retirement Income TLRIX LifeCycle Retirement
Target Date 2016-2020 TCWIX LifeCycle 2020
Target Date 2026-2030 TCRIX LifeCycle 2030
Target Date 2036-2040 TCOIX LifeCycle 2040
Target Date 2046-2050 TFTIX LifeCycle 2050





New
Asset Class Ticker Description
INTERNATIONAL EQUITY
Foreign Large Blend EFA BlackRock EAFE Equity Index
Foreign Large Blend DODFX Dodge & Cox International Stock
Foreign Large Blend VWILX The International Growth Fund
FIXED INCOME
Intermediate-Term Bond VBMPX BlackRock US Debt Index
Intermediate-Term Bond FTBFX Fixed Income (Managed by Fidelity)
High Yield Bond MWHIX Metropolitan West High Yield Bond Class Institutional
WORLD BOND TGBAX Templeton Global Bond Fund Advisor Class
US EQUITY
LARGE BLEND PNIEX BlackRock Equity Index
Mid-Cap Growth CMGIX BlackRock MidCap Equity Index
MID-CAP BLEND FLPSX Fidelity® Low-Priced Stock
LARGE VALUE GSLIX Goldman Sachs Large Cap Value Institutional Class
SMALL BLEND SMEIX Invesco Small Cap Growth Institutional Class
MID-CAP VALUE FLMVX JPMorgan Mid Cap Value Institutional Class
Mid-Cap Growth VMGRX Mid-Cap Growth
SMALL VALUE VISVX Small Cap Value
LARGE GROWTH VPMCX Vanguard PRIMECAP Admiral Shares
Other
Money Market-Taxable FRTXX Fidelity Money Market Trust Retirement Government Money Market Portfolio
Aggressive Allocation RLY SSgA Real Asset Non-Lending Series Class C7
Retirement Income STLAX BlackRock LifePath Retirement
Retirement Income LPSAX BlackRock LifePath 2015 K
Target Date 2016-2020 LPSCX BlackRock LifePath 2020 K
Target Date 2021-2025 LPBKX BlackRock LifePath 2025 K
Target Date 2026-2030 LPSDX BlackRock LifePath 2030 K
Target Date 2031-2035 LPJKX BlackRock LifePath 2035 K
Target Date 2036-2040 LPSFX BlackRock LifePath 2040 K
Target Date 2041-2045 LPHKX BlackRock LifePath 2045 K
Target Date 2046-2050 LPSGX BlackRock LifePath 2050 K
Target Date 2051+ LPVKX BlackRock LifePath 2055 K
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Duckie
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Re: Changed employer - rollover 401k? - how to compare 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:18 pm After some more searching I came across this site: https://www.myplaniq.com
I don't know how accurate it is. But they have info for both of my employers.
Do you not have online access to your own account? Do you not know what you've been contributing to for years?
Here is for my old employer: I am not sure whether they really invested into those funds. e.g. VEIEX for diversified emerging. That is the info alight didn't disclose.
Does that mean at Alight you don't get to choose what you hold in the 401k? What is currently in your old account? Not what you could have but what you actually own?
Asset Class Ticker Description
You left out your old plan expense ratios. Those numbers are critical. However, I see two funds that, depending on plan expense ratios, would be suitable:
  • VFINX-US Large Cap
  • VBMFX-Intermediate-Term Bond
New
Asset Class Ticker Description
Have you verified these options are available at your new plan? What are the plan expense ratios? There are some decent index funds here:
  • PNIEX-BlackRock Equity Index
  • EFA-BlackRock EAFE Equity Index
  • VBMPX-BlackRock US Debt Index
Always look for the word "index" when first surveying your options. They are usually the best and the cheapest offerings.
Topic Author
calimero
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Re: Cahnged employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

My main point about alight (and new employer Fidelity):
I can choose "US Large Cap" - but I don't know the actual fund. e,g, if it is VFINX or not
fyre4ce
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Re: Cahnged employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by fyre4ce »

You really only need 2 or 3 good low-cost funds for a 401k to be good. If you have assets other places, even one good fund could be enough.

If both 401k’s are good, and the new one is equal or better than the old one, roll the money into the new one for simplicity.

If both 401k’s are good and the old 401k is better, leave the money in the old one.

If neither 401k is good, you should probably roll the money out into an IRA. Beware that this will interfere with the Backdoor Roth IRA, if that’s something valuable to you.

Here is a general comparison between IRAs and employer plans: https://www.bogleheads.org/w/index.php? ... r_accounts
Topic Author
calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

I started digging into the fees.

Old plan:
So, it appears that my old plan has "asset" fees ranging 0.03% to 0.38% (and lifecycle 0.11% to 0.15%).
Up $6 a month in record keeping/admin

Question: I am assuming asset fee is the same as the fund mgt cost?

My new plan:
record/admin: $35 annually
asset fees range 0.022% (e.g. SP500) to 0.554% for international or Russel midcap. I think the highest is Small Cap Equity - Growth Fund S&P 500 at 0.712% - Lyfecycles are 0.052%

Question:
- so, asset fee is the same as the fund cost?
- anything else I need to look out for?

It seems that the newer plan has more choices. Costs really depends on choices.

e.g. old core bond is 0.03% - new plan: short term bond 0.052% - us bond 0.026% - money market 0.041%
Gnick
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by Gnick »

I'm going through this right now.

you also need to consider what the 401k management fees are for both plans. I don't think you have that included here. it's usually somewhere between .05% and 1%. Some companies are transparent about it, some make you work for it. With that being said, I doubt its just $35 annually.
homebuyer6426
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Re: Cahnged employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

Duckie wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:06 pm
calimero wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:45 am I changed employer and face now the question on what to do with old 401k. I guess my options are to keep as is or move it to new employer.
The third option is to roll the old 401k into a Rollover IRA.
This is what I did recently. I had an old 401k with Fidelity, as well as a brokerage account with Fidelity. I created a Rollover IRA there (which is basically a Traditional IRA) and was able to move the old 401k into that. I did it in-kind so no funds were sold. It required a 10-15 minute phone call with a Fidelity representative which went very well. I would recommend it.

What prompted the move was the high management fee the 401k started charging.
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Having gone through this with DW's old 401k and my own......

The down side of moving the old 401k to an IRA is that to convert it later to a Roth means paying income tax.

Your present, new employer uses Fidelity now. You have no control over them switching to someone else who could have enormous fees on all available funds. My last employer switched from one bad 401k provider to another 401k provider.

Fidelity can be the provider for the 401k but it does not necessarily provide the same funds to all 401k plans. DW had a great Fidelity plan where the employer picked up all management fees and she held a Vanguard bond fund at an ER LESS than an admiral fund in Vanguard itself. She left the company but left the 401k in place. I kept an eye on it and at the turn of a year, the management fee was added to the account of 0.5%. She then transferred it to an IRA.

I currently have a Fidelity 401k. The employer pays the management fee. Every fund except one is high priced garbage. But that one fund, an S&P 500 fund is great at 0.015% ER. So 100% of my contributions go into that fund. I do have a very large tIRA with 2 commas in it. It's where I have all funds in my allocation and where I rebalance.
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Topic Author
calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

Gnick wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:24 am I'm going through this right now.

you also need to consider what the 401k management fees are for both plans. I don't think you have that included here. it's usually somewhere between .05% and 1%. Some companies are transparent about it, some make you work for it. With that being said, I doubt its just $35 annually.
Both plans have a fee document but could not find a management fee. I did not list other fees such as loan fees, etc. (that do not apply)
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by rob »

Some things IMO to check....
- Does the old plan have a good stable values fund? These are not available in IRA's etc and might be work keeping access to.
- Are you able to get early access to the funds via a rule of 55 or alike? In which case it might be worth preserving that option if you want to get the money earlier (yes I know you can always do a SEPP).
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
Topic Author
calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

just confirmed by phone with both plans. Neither have additional fees.
Topic Author
calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

rob wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:38 am Some things IMO to check....
- Does the old plan have a good stable values fund? These are not available in IRA's etc and might be work keeping access to.
- Are you able to get early access to the funds via a rule of 55 or alike? In which case it might be worth preserving that option if you want to get the money earlier (yes I know you can always do a SEPP).
the old plan has:
SHORT GOVERNMENT STABLEVALUE Stable Value

the new one has a money market and bonds
Money Market-Taxable FRTXX Fidelity Money Market Trust Retirement Government Money Market Portfolio
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Duckie
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:59 am I started digging into the fees.

Old plan:
So, it appears that my old plan has "asset" fees ranging 0.03% to 0.38% (and lifecycle 0.11% to 0.15%).
Up $6 a month in record keeping/admin

Question: I am assuming asset fee is the same as the fund mgt cost?
Normally no, an asset fee is usually something else. But in this case what you are describing as "asset" fees are fund expense ratios. They may be what the actual fund costs to run or the retirement plan may tack on some extra cost (although your above expense ratios are good).
My new plan:
record/admin: $35 annually
asset fees range 0.022% (e.g. SP500) to 0.554% for international or Russel midcap. I think the highest is Small Cap Equity - Growth Fund S&P 500 at 0.712% - Lyfecycles are 0.052%
Some of these option/costs are excellent. And the admin fees are half that of the old plan.
It seems that the newer plan has more choices. Costs really depends on choices.

e.g. old core bond is 0.03% - new plan: short term bond 0.052% - us bond 0.026% - money market 0.041%
Given that you list an S&P 500 Index fund for 0.022%, a US bond fund for 0.026%, and a lifecycle fund for 0.052% at the new plan I recommend you roll your old 401k into the new plan.
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calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

thanks duckie for reviewing.
I will make the switch. Now it is a good time to think about allocating funds into the new funds.
With all the choices what would be a good strategy to choose? e.g. large blend vs value or mid-cap growth value etc. I believe I even have two mid-cap Growth choices...
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by dboeger1 »

One thing to be aware of, both now and in the future, is whether the old plan will charge any fees for maintaining accounts of ex-employees. This is fairly common as these plans often cost employers money and they don't really want to be providing free services to ex-employees in perpetuity. My current employer didn't have any such fees when I joined, but a few years in, they decided to start charging $50 annually to keep old accounts open. To be fair, $50 annually is pretty negligible, especially in cases where 401k accounts have access to institutional fund variants with lower expense ratios, but you just want to make sure they're not doing anything crazy like charging 1% AUM for ex-employees. For simplicity, I'd lean toward just consolidating everything in the new account, unless the offerings were just really awful.
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calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

one more thing to compare. My old plan allowed self directed. I never did it....
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Duckie
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Re: Changed employer - rollover 401k? - how to compare 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:06 pm With all the choices what would be a good strategy to choose? e.g. large blend vs value or mid-cap growth value etc. I believe I even have two mid-cap Growth choices...
If you go with individual funds go with the S&P 500 Index fund (0.022%) for US stocks and the US bond fund (0.026%) for bonds. If 0.554% is the cheapest international fund offered put international in an IRA.

Or you could choose one of the Lifecycle funds (0.052%) instead of the individual funds. You pick a target-date fund by the AA inside, not the date in the title.
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calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

I reviewed my choices directly in the plan, I have below (added cost at the end)

how should I allocate investments? There are several sub choices such as for mid-cap. Also, trying to figure out right international mix (developed, emerging,..)

Name/Inception Date Asset Class Category Index Plan-specific option All tooltip content. 1 Year 3 Year 5 Year 10 Year/LOF* Returns As Of Bench- mark Cost

Company Stock Stock Investments Company Stock Yes 7/31/2022 Show
LG CAP EQ S&P500 IDX 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Large Cap Yes -4.65% 13.38% 12.86% 13.10% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0220%
MID CAP EQ GROWTH 02/20/2009  Stock Investments Mid-Cap Yes -27.56% 9.00% 12.44% 13.11% 7/31/2022 Show 0.5590%
MID CAP EQUITY INDEX 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Mid-Cap Yes -5.76% 10.10% 9.02% 8.99% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0350%
MID CAP EQUITY VALUE 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Mid-Cap Yes 0.66% 9.88% 7.99% 8.34% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0720%
SMALL CAP EQ GROWTH 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Small Cap Yes -31.44% 6.15% 8.41% 8.63% 7/31/2022 Show 0.7120%
SMALL CAP EQ VALUE 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Small Cap Yes -4.89% 9.41% 6.75% 6.62% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0620%
SMALL CAP EQUITY IDX 04/28/2017  Stock Investments Small Cap Yes -11.06% 8.54% 8.83% 8.84% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0420%
INTERNATIONAL EQ VAL 04/28/2017  Stock Investments International MSCI EAFE (N) Yes -7.45% 5.10% 1.60% 2.78% 7/31/2022 Show 0.6317%
INTERNATIONAL EQUITY 04/28/2017  Stock Investments International MSCI EAFE (Net MA) -developped? Yes -13.84% 3.71% 2.82% 3.96% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0368%
INTL EQUITY GROWTH 12/15/2014  Stock Investments International MSCI AC Wld ex US Yes -14.48% 5.80% 6.45% 7.69% 7/31/2022 Show 0.5540%
SUST PASSIVE GLB EQ 01/03/2022  Stock Investments International Yes N/A N/A N/A -15.00% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0900%
REAL ASSETS FUND 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes 11.31% 11.03% 7.90% 7.97% 7/31/2022 Show 0.2220%
TARGET RET 2025 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -8.64% 5.09% 5.43% 5.78% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2030 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -8.93% 6.03% 6.16% 6.58% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2035 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -9.21% 6.93% 6.84% 7.32% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2040 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -9.56% 7.69% 7.42% 7.96% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2045 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -9.90% 8.29% 7.87% 8.42% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2050 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -10.18% 8.58% 8.06% 8.63% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2055 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -10.28% 8.64% 8.07% 8.64% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET 2060 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -10.28% 8.61% 8.06% 8.63% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
TARGET RET INCOME 04/28/2017  Blended Fund Investments* N/A Yes -8.57% 4.24% 4.62% 4.83% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0510%
FIXED INC SH TERM BD 04/28/2017  Bond/Managed Income Income Yes -4.66% 0.41% 1.17% 1.21% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0520%
FIXED INCOME US BOND 04/28/2017  Bond/Managed Income Income Yes -9.09% -0.15% 1.33% 1.48% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0260%
SUST ACTIVE US BOND 01/03/2022  Bond/Managed Income Income Yes N/A N/A N/A -10.00% 7/31/2022 Show 0.5330%
MONEY MARKET FUND 04/28/2017  Short-Term Investments Other Yes 0.29% 0.54% 1.04% 1.03% 7/31/2022 Show 0.0410%


p.s. is there a way to post images or add attachments?
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Duckie
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:58 pm how should I allocate investments?
The best options are:
  • LG CAP EQUITY S&P500 INDEX 0.0220% -- Large caps, 73% of US stocks
  • MID CAP EQUITY INDEX 0.0350% -- Mid caps, 19% of US stocks
  • SMALL CAP EQUITY INDEX 0.0420% -- Small caps, 8% of US stocks
  • INTERNATIONAL EQUITY 0.0368% -- Developed markets, 75% of international stocks
  • FIXED INCOME US BOND 0.0260% -- US bonds
    Or
  • Pick one of the Target Retirement funds 0.052%
(The large/mid/small cap percentages come from here.)
There are several sub choices such as for mid-cap.
You could split your US stocks among the three cap sizes but if you compare on a chart a total US stock fund like VTSAX with a 500 Index fund like VFIAX you would see they have had practically the same results for years. I'd go with just 500 Index for US in this account.
Also, trying to figure out right international mix (developed, emerging,..)
It's about 75% developed, 20% emerging, and 5% Canada, but you don't have emerging and Canada here so just use developed.
p.s. is there a way to post images or add attachments?
Yes. Posting images in the Bogleheads forum
______________________

As an example let's say you want an Asset allocation of 80% stocks, 20% bonds with 25% of stocks in international. Also that you have no other accounts earmarked for retirement. It's just your 401k. You could have:

401k plan <-- Including rollover from old plan
60% Large Cap Equity S&P500 Index (0.022%)
20% International Equity (0.0368%)
20% Fixed Income US Bond (0.026%)

OR

100% Target Retirement (0.052%) -- the one closest to 20% bonds

If you have an IRA or a taxable account earmarked for retirement that would change the above percentages.
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calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to comapre 401k?

Post by calimero »

thank you Duckie for taking the time to review and making the recommendation.

I would like the idea of some MSCI Emerging Markets exposure. Too bad I don't have a fund in the new plan
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Duckie
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to compare 401k?

Post by Duckie »

calimero wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:13 pm I would like the idea of some MSCI Emerging Markets exposure. Too bad I don't have a fund in the new plan
If you have an IRA you could put emerging markets there. Vanguard has VEMAX or VWO; Fidelity has FPADX; iShares has EEM.
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calimero
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Re: Change employer - rollover 401k? - how to compare 401k?

Post by calimero »

Duckie wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:47 pm
calimero wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:13 pm I would like the idea of some MSCI Emerging Markets exposure. Too bad I don't have a fund in the new plan
If you have an IRA you could put emerging markets there. Vanguard has VEMAX or VWO; Fidelity has FPADX; iShares has EEM.
I don't have an IRA (expect backdoor). But yes, I have some other investments that I could prioritize
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