How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

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artgerst
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How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

Today my wife gets an alert from Schwab saying that her debit card may be compromised. I assume we all are dealing with things like this constantly. I believe on average every 6 months to a year I need to deal with some security issue.

She calls Schwab and their system was smart enough to figure out that it wasn't her using the debit card (in Texas, we are on the east coast). Typically I assume that a card number was taken by one of the following ways:
  • Stolen from person (or at least viewed temporarily to get the numbers)
  • Stolen from a merchant website where the card was used
  • Stolen from the mailbox when it arrived
  • Stolen from the bank website because of a poor password
My wife had this debit card for over a year. Although it's possible someone temporarily took her wallet to look at the numbers, that is not likely and they would have had other card numbers too. She had never used the card before. She had it for emergencies. As mentioned it's been over a year so I few the likelihood of someone looking at our mailbox over a year ago to look at her card (and not mine since they typically arrive together) is small. We generate our passwords so someone else viewing the card number via the Schwab website is something also not likely.

How then do the bad guys get her debit card number?
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anon_investor
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by anon_investor »

artgerst wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:30 pm Today my wife gets an alert from Schwab saying that her debit card may be compromised. I assume we all are dealing with things like this constantly. I believe on average every 6 months to a year I need to deal with some security issue.

She calls Schwab and their system was smart enough to figure out that it wasn't her using the debit card (in Texas, we are on the east coast). Typically I assume that a card number was taken by one of the following ways:
  • Stolen from person (or at least viewed temporarily to get the numbers)
  • Stolen from a merchant website where the card was used
  • Stolen from the mailbox when it arrived
  • Stolen from the bank website because of a poor password
My wife had this debit card for over a year. Although it's possible someone temporarily took her wallet to look at the numbers, that is not likely and they would have had other card numbers too. She had never used the card before. She had it for emergencies. As mentioned it's been over a year so I few the likelihood of someone looking at our mailbox over a year ago to look at her card (and not mine since they typically arrive together) is small. We generate our passwords so someone else viewing the card number via the Schwab website is something also not likely.

How then do the bad guys get her debit card number?
Probably some hacking. I had 2 debit cards (different banks) that have never left my safe since being activated. Luckily both were "locked" but I was notified of attempted purchases. Both were replaced with new numbers, and the new cards remain "locked" and in my safe.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:33 pm
Probably some hacking. I had 2 debit cards (different banks) that have never left my safe since being activated. Luckily both were "locked" but I was notified of attempted purchases. Both were replaced with new numbers, and the new cards remain "locked" and in my safe.
What do you mean by "hacking"? Hacking into Schwab's site? I would think we would hear about that.
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tennisplyr
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by tennisplyr »

Personally I rarely use a debit card unless it’s an absolute must…usually I only use it at my bank for ID purposes or to get cash. Reason: if someone gets my card # they have access to my bank accounts/cash. I always use a credit card because I basically have no liability…the bank does. I don’t spend time trying to figure out how the “bad guys” do it.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

tennisplyr wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:41 pm Personally I rarely use a debit card unless it’s an absolute must…usually I only use it at my bank for ID purposes or to get cash. Reason: if someone gets my card # they have access to my bank accounts/cash. I always use a credit card because I basically have no liability…the bank does. I don’t spend time trying to figure out how the “bad guys” do it.
I'm actually the same but we have a Schwab debit card just for the purpose of getting money out of an ATM internationally for free. We only use it when traveling abroad which we do often and don't keep much money in there. As someone who likes to know the details, I'm just very curious of how they do it with debit and credit cards because mostly our credit cards get stolen and as you know it's a pain even just to wait the 30 minutes on the phone to get your info, validate the charges, discuss the replacement card, explain where you want it set, change all of the recurring charges, etc...
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by jebmke »

tennisplyr wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:41 pm Personally I rarely use a debit card unless it’s an absolute must…usually I only use it at my bank for ID purposes or to get cash. Reason: if someone gets my card # they have access to my bank accounts/cash. I always use a credit card because I basically have no liability…the bank does. I don’t spend time trying to figure out how the “bad guys” do it.
The last time I used mine was in early March, 2020 at an ATM. I still have almost all that cash. The card stays in my lock box at home now.

CC and increasingly, Apple Pay. I haven’t had a bad charge on my CC in many years and we use it for everything.
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by HMSVictory »

I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
Stay the course!
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snackdog
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by snackdog »

Any time you use your card the details can be intercepted. Aside from never using it, there aren’t many options for security besides obviously never letting it out of your sight.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
Thanks for the response and I totally agree that human involvement is the most likely scenario but currently perplexed with this one since she never used it and Schwab confirmed that. I shudder to think that someone went through her wallet at some point, but to me that's the only explanation.
livesoft
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by livesoft »

I've had cards hacked before I even received them in the mail for the first time. Inside job was the likely culprit.
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anon_investor
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by anon_investor »

artgerst wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:35 pm
anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:33 pm
Probably some hacking. I had 2 debit cards (different banks) that have never left my safe since being activated. Luckily both were "locked" but I was notified of attempted purchases. Both were replaced with new numbers, and the new cards remain "locked" and in my safe.
What do you mean by "hacking"? Hacking into Schwab's site? I would think we would hear about that.
Probably some 3rd party database that has the card info. The debit cards for Schwab are probably not serviced by Schwab, likely instead a 3rd party. There may be some other intermediary companies involved.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

livesoft wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:00 pm I've had cards hacked before I even received them in the mail for the first time. Inside job was the likely culprit.
I guess so...makes sense, but you try to hope that this is not the case at financial companies.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:00 pm
Probably some 3rd party database that has the card info. The debit cards for Schwab are probably not serviced by Schwab, likely instead a 3rd party. There may be some other intermediary companies involved.
Could be and good point. You would assume if this is happening a lot, Schwab would be following up on it, but I do see that it's "BNY Mellon Investment Servicing Trust Company" that issues the card as per: https://www.schwab.com/legal/schwab-one ... -agreement
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22twain
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by 22twain »

artgerst wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:30 pm I assume we all are dealing with things like this constantly. I believe on average every 6 months to a year I need to deal with some security issue.
The last time we had to deal with it was five years ago. One of my credit cards was hacked, presumably at a company in the UK where I had sent an order by snail mail, with credit card info, including of course the security code.

Previously, during the 10-15 years before that, we had one case where a vendor that I had dealt with on line frequently was hacked (and acknowledged it), and one or two cases that were probably due to "skimming" devices at gas-station pumps.

Nowadays I use only gas stations that have contactless payment at the pump. Normally I eat out at places where I pay at the counter on the way out. On the rare occasions when I have to give my card to the server (twice last month, first times in a long time), I use my Apple Card which displays only my name.

I've only ever used debit/ATM cards to get cash from an ATM. Nowadays I keep them locked, and unlock them in the bank's app only when I need to get cash.
It's "IRMAA" (Income Related Monthly Adjustment Amount), not "IIRMA" or "IRRMA" or "IRMMA".
JCH10400
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by JCH10400 »

Several years ago I got a call from my card's fraud people asking if I was trying to use my card to make online purchases in Australia (I live in So Cal). Told them no. This one was flagged as they kept entering the wrong expiration month / year for the card, so I don't think the crooks ever saw the card. I asked how they thought my card number got out and they said crooks start with the prefix that ID's the type of card, then use a random number generator to fill in the rest.
DivesEtPauper
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by DivesEtPauper »

I've had two cards compromised in my decades of having credit cards (I've never used a debit card linked to my bank account, and will never as long as I have a choice). One time (years ago) the bank called me. The other (just a week ago) I called them because I received a handful of texts for purchases that I didn't make.

In both cases, I really didn't worry too much. I just told the bank that the purchases weren't mine, they cancelled them, and sent me a new card. Slight hassle, but no big deal to me. For this recent time, the bank even told me my recurring payments would automatically get updated. Same for my (different) bank where I pay my bills - they were notified, and I didn't have to update my payment info or anything.

To answer your question - I have no idea how a card that's never been used gets compromised. Inside job?? Postal worker?? But you say you have used it when traveling abroad, so that seems like a viable explanation.

On a side note, this does re-enforce my feelings about hating debit cards - my account would have been drained and I'd have to fight for my money (and deal with all the hassle of having no money in my account). With a credit card, I just don't pay the charges that aren't mine. Even if there's some dispute, I'm not out any money. Debit cards suck.
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artgerst
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by artgerst »

JCH10400 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:59 pm Several years ago I got a call from my card's fraud people asking if I was trying to use my card to make online purchases in Australia (I live in So Cal). Told them no. This one was flagged as they kept entering the wrong expiration month / year for the card, so I don't think the crooks ever saw the card. I asked how they thought my card number got out and they said crooks start with the prefix that ID's the type of card, then use a random number generator to fill in the rest.
This is what I think is most likely as mentioned here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 50776.html
cubs1999
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by cubs1999 »

HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
Why would you give up the credit card rewards for dining bc of this fraud risk? Yeah it's annoying but we.dont have to pay for the fraudulent charges. I would rather have the 3% back on my credit card for my meals than pay cash.
RetiredAL
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by RetiredAL »

Around 15 years ago, DW's ATM card got decline at a chain grocery store she often used. She was using the ATM card as she wanted cash back from the store. Not having the cash she needed, she went to the drug store next door and the card was decline there too. We called the bank and was told the card had been cancelled "at the request of the holder". No way, but the only solution was to wait a 7-10 days for a new issue card. DW was not happy. Later in the evening we went to the bank's ATM to use my card to get her cash, and mine too was declined. Another call to the bank and was told that my card also had been cancelled "at the request of the holder", and 7 to 10 days for a replacement. Less than 48 hours later, we received 2 new cards, delivered regular postal from an address 2000 miles away. OK, the bank knows more than what the CSR's are telling us.

In the next morning's paper, there was a write-up about several hundred thousand cards having been compromised by a European ATM pre-processor's inside data leak (card numbers and their pin's) effecting our bank and several others, with cash withdrawals being made from Eastern Europe ATMs. I can see slamming the door shut to foreign transactions, but stopping transactions at the local branch's ATM is tantamount to locking us out of our money sitting in the bank.

I suspect there are a lot more of these rogue insider thefts and leaks than what makes the news.
chris319
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by chris319 »

Here is what happened to me.

I used to receive paper credit card statements from Bank of America. B of A prints your entire 16-digit credit card number on your statement, not just the last four digits, e.g. xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-4321.

Several years ago we had a rash of mail thefts. The thieves got my paper statement and thus had my full 16-digit cc number but they did not have the three-digit so-called "security code".

They then went on a shopping spree with my credit card number. Long story short, I went to my local B of A branch and explained the situation. The manager listened to my explanation and understood the problem. My complaint fell on deaf ears as B of A still prints the full account number on the statement. I immediately discontinued paper statements. Now If I want to see a statement I have to look at it on line.

I learned some things from this experience.

1. The three-digit "security code" on the reverse side of your credit card is totally worthless. As I learned the hard way, it is possible to make charges without it. The same holds true for the expiration date.

2. I looked around on the Internet and was able to find drawings for USPS "arrow keys" which will open an aparment/condo building's mailbox. There they were, right on the open Internet.

Recommendation #1 is to not use USPS to pay or receive cc statements.
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markjk
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by markjk »

There are many ways a card can be compromised.

I suspect the most prominent way in today's environment is within the computer systems either at the card provider or at the merchant that has taken the card as payment. I've had experiences (more than once unfortunately) where a debit card I literally never used was compromised. The only way it could have been snatched by the bad guys was from the issuing bank systems somehow. No paper statements to the house and no use, ever.

Do what you can to safeguard your information but unfortunately it's not all in our control. That's just the way it is today. Paying attention to statements and transactions (even small transactions) is also important.
Osterix
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by Osterix »

HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
The bolded section is inaccurate. See the link below.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 29654.html

Also, criminals have direct access to stealing your money when you use a debit card. Many banks aren’t quick to return that money to you. With a credit card, it is obviously not your money.

Most important point is to set alerts on both your credit and debit cards to notify you of charges over a certain amount, online charges, gas station charges, international charges, etc.
mgensler
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by mgensler »

We used to own a medium sized e-commerce company and had to deal with fraud routinely. The credit card companies don't really have incentive to secure your card as the merchant always pays for any fraudulent activity. In Europe they have much stricter legal controls. Hence, our cards still have the non secure magnetic strip where Europe has been on chip and pin for decades.

Most stolen card # are sold on the darb web in bulk. The higher the potential card limit the more it's potentially worth. I.e. gold/platinum are worth more than regular cards due to perceived higher limits. In person fraud is extremely rare such as restaurants. It sounds like your card my have been an inside job at the issuing bank or it could have been a random attempt. If this is routinely happening with the same account, I would drop it and find someone else. We had issues with a chase Sapphire approximately every six months. Got rid of that card and now things are maybe once every 2-3 years. Much more tolerable.
UNCHEEL
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by UNCHEEL »

Since you mentioned that the only reason you use the card is for ATM overseas, odds are there was a skimmer on one of those machines.
nolesrule
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by nolesrule »

Given that credit card numbers have a known checksum formula and there are specific BINs that are used for different providers which are accounted for in the checksum, there are a finite number of possible credit card numbers.
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by HMSVictory »

cubs1999 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:53 pm
HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
Why would you give up the credit card rewards for dining bc of this fraud risk? Yeah it's annoying but we.dont have to pay for the fraudulent charges. I would rather have the 3% back on my credit card for my meals than pay cash.
I don't have a credit card at all. I don't get any points on anything.

You aren't going to get rich off of your credit card rewards points. They are irrelevant to your overall finances.

Most people over spend by more than 3% reward by using the card vs if they just paid cash (go ahead and adamantly say you don't spend a penny more but the credit card companies have spent billions researching this and figured this out - that's why they offer rewards points).

I enjoy paying cashing and tipping in cash. Servers enjoy it too.
Stay the course!
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HMSVictory
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by HMSVictory »

Osterix wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:42 am
HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
The bolded section is inaccurate. See the link below.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 29654.html

Also, criminals have direct access to stealing your money when you use a debit card. Many banks aren’t quick to return that money to you. With a credit card, it is obviously not your money.

Most important point is to set alerts on both your credit and debit cards to notify you of charges over a certain amount, online charges, gas station charges, international charges, etc.
I guess the fact that Capital One credited my money back to me in 15 mins is inconvenient for your point?

Let's try this again:

https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/persona ... tions.html

Its zero liability credit or debit. You are quoting government regulations and not the card issuers policy (which I just used). :oops:
Stay the course!
Nowizard
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by Nowizard »

Hackers who then put data on the dark web for sale. We are monitored relative to the Experian hack and get regular reports. For example, they have sent names and addresses of people, along with the offense, who have been charged with sexual assault, rape, etc.. They also send anything related to our identity. For example, recently, my email address was posted but no passwords.

Tim
Osterix
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by Osterix »

HMSVictory wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:12 am
Osterix wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:42 am
HMSVictory wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:49 pm I just had my debit card hacked and $49.03 of fraudulent charges made on a tipping app.

Any time you enter your card into a chip based payment place it is very, very, very secure.

Any time you swipe your card and enter the PIN number is is also very secure.

Online encrypted transactions are secure.

Any time you hand your card to someone and they disappear with it to run it for you and come back with a receipt you are extremely vulnerable to having your number stolen. A quick picture of the card will capture name, card number, expiration date, security code and they can guess your zip code. That's all you need to steal the number. Long story short its mostly stolen by servers at Restaurants.

I make it a habit to pay cash at restaurants for these reasons but I let my guard down one time and boom! They got me.

Side note. My bank is Capital One NA and they credited my account within 15 mins and had a new card FedEx to me within 2 days. Excellent service.

Debit cards enjoy the exact same protection (Mastercard zero liability) as credit cards do.
The bolded section is inaccurate. See the link below.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 29654.html

Also, criminals have direct access to stealing your money when you use a debit card. Many banks aren’t quick to return that money to you. With a credit card, it is obviously not your money.

Most important point is to set alerts on both your credit and debit cards to notify you of charges over a certain amount, online charges, gas station charges, international charges, etc.
I guess the fact that Capital One credited my money back to me in 15 mins is inconvenient for your point?

Let's try this again:

https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/persona ... tions.html

Its zero liability credit or debit. You are quoting government regulations and not the card issuers policy (which I just used). :oops:
I am glad that it worked out for you, and that you received your money back so quickly. It doesn’t negate the fact that it is still at the bank’s discretion to return your money to you.

Also, other major card issuers such as Visa, American Express and Discover may not have similar zero liability policies.

I have had a difference experience with my Citi Double Cash Mastercard. I am still waiting for them to remove a fraudulent charge from my credit card that I disputed last fall.

Besides Dave Ramsey, you will likely have a hard time finding any financial expert recommending using a debit card over a credit card.

Since you believe in Mastercard’s zero liability policy, why do you choose to give up 2% cash back by not using the Citi Double Cash credit card?
PeninsulaPerson
Posts: 269
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by PeninsulaPerson »

artgerst wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:56 pm
I shudder to think that someone went through her wallet at some point, but to me that's the only explanation.

In the situation as it seemed at first, most likely it was some sort of breach at Schwab so probably no need to shudder about your wife's wallet. Many breaches happen that never make the news.

Is Schwab still allowing debit cards to be used overseas without authorization? And is that the only money you have at Schwab, the only account? 'Cause those "free" ATM withdrawals overseas could cost you a lot in hassle if something goes sideways!

Most banks have turned off out-of-USA use of debit cards because of all the fraud! Ten years ago, a banking professional told me his concerns about debit cards and what he told me I have seen happen to folks over and over. Dave Ramsey is wrong - credit cards are safer and so much easier when something goes wrong!
Last edited by PeninsulaPerson on Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
ee_guy
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by ee_guy »

HMSVictory wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:12 am
https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/persona ... tions.html

Its zero liability credit or debit. You are quoting government regulations and not the card issuers policy (which I just used). :oops:
Two are lines in the policy that raises red flags.
(1) "Effective October 17, 2014" A more recent policy if it exists would take precedence. Website links often don't get updated.
(2) "If applicable law imposes a greater liability or a conflicting obligation, such applicable law shall govern." Since debit cards falls under the Electronic Fund Transfer Act and has a high liability rule (2) applies.
protagonist
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by protagonist »

I can't speak for debit cards, but I have had my credit card number hacked or stolen on at least a few occasions with fraudulent charges posted to my account. Every time the CC company has reimbursed me for the fraudulent charges....all I had to do is report it. Other than the minor hassle of being issued a new CC number, it has been no big deal on my part.
So I don't worry about this. It's the bank's liability , not mine. I figure it's just something that happens every so often. Not something to lose sleep over.
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HMSVictory
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Re: How do the bad guys do it? (credit/debit card numbers)

Post by HMSVictory »

Osterix wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:21 am Besides Dave Ramsey, you will likely have a hard time finding any financial expert recommending using a debit card over a credit card.

Since you believe in Mastercard’s zero liability policy, why do you choose to give up 2% cash back by not using the Citi Double Cash credit card?
Its not that I believe in the policy (like I'm guessing, hoping they honor it or reading gov regs) I've used it. You are confusing experience with theory.

Sounds like you aren't having any luck with a credit card!

I don't own a credit card. I don't play games with credit card companies to try to get 1-3% back. I also don't have a FICO score! The horror!

Life is too short and you are not going to get rich off your rewards points or airlines miles. I focus my effort on wealth building and my income. I also frequently get discounts for paying cash - especially off of big purchases where the merchant gets pounded in credit card transaction fees. I have easily gotten 10% for paying cash. YMMV.
Stay the course!
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