Unresponsive Estate executors

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hotscot
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Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

Apologies if this is the wrong forum. Please move if necessary.

My wife's aunt died about 6 years ago.

The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
They refuse to provide any information whatsoever.
They do not respond to texts/phone calls/letters. And have not done so in 5 years.
No response, no communication. No wrap up.
5 years.

Advice appreciated.
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bertilak
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by bertilak »

Lawyer up.

I guess that depends on the size of the estate.

P.S. Does your wife have "standing" (I think that's the term). In other words, is she named in the will, a beneficiary of the estate, or is she next-of-kin?
Last edited by bertilak on Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Topic Author
hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

Lawyering up is something we have, of course, considered but it costs $$ and we're not quite sure what 'charge' we're aiming for as being 'unresponsive' within a certain window is not a legal transgression.

Yes, she has standing. Her share would be around $13K.
We don't 'need' it but would rather it was sitting in her account rather than elsewhere.

We are also bemused as to why the executors don't want to wrap up and get their share as they are certainly not Bogleheads.
For all we know they spent it.
Last edited by hotscot on Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bertilak
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by bertilak »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:58 pm Lawyering up is something we have, of course, considered but it costs $$ and we're not quite sure what 'charge' we're aiming for as being 'unresponsive' within a certain window is not a legal transgression.
The idea is not to charge them with anything but to demand action. A lawyer should know what to do.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

We have a fairly ineffectual lawyer. We'll have words with him this week.

Thanks!
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JoeRetire
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by JoeRetire »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
What does "complete" mean in this context? Did you mean "settle"? How do you know it isn't settled?
They refuse to provide any information whatsoever.
They do not respond to texts/phone calls/letters. And have not done so in 5 years.
No response, no communication. No wrap up.
5 years.
It's not clear if the executors owe your wife anything.

Contact your lawyer. Explain what you are seeing. Decide if it's worthwhile to proceed.
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livesoft
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by livesoft »

I guess no one has been to a Thanksgiving dinner together in the past 5 years. :)

Also maybe the estate is nothing and more work than doing nothing.
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privateer79
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by privateer79 »

perhaps you could do a little legwork and see if they're meeting their obligations to the estate...

when I was Personal rep. I had to file a periodic accounting of the estate with the court (every year I think)........ alot of those filings are searchable online and public record...

seems like a good place to start investigating.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by smitcat »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:58 pm Lawyering up is something we have, of course, considered but it costs $$ and we're not quite sure what 'charge' we're aiming for as being 'unresponsive' within a certain window is not a legal transgression.

Yes, she has standing. Her share would be around $13K.
We don't 'need' it but would rather it was sitting in her account rather than elsewhere.

We are also bemused as to why the executors don't want to wrap up and get their share as they are certainly not Bogleheads.
For all we know they spent it.
"Lawyering up is something we have, of course, considered but it costs $$ and we're not quite sure what 'charge' we're aiming for as being 'unresponsive' within a certain window is not a legal transgression."
Depending upon which state you reside in an executor generally has 90 days to disclose to beneficiaries and typically 1-3 years to complete non simple estates.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Why not contact the AG in your state of residence or the state where the estate is located? Executors have responsibilities under law. If they are trustees they have to make a full accounting. I’m not a lawyer in this area but your local bar association should have a free consult line and they can put you in touch with someone who can give you a free lay of the land about your options.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

JoeRetire wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:03 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
What does "complete" mean in this context? Did you mean "settle"? How do you know it isn't settled?

Correct. The estate is not settled and there has been no accounting of the assets, including the sale of a condo.
Also the final estate tax return needs to be completed and they are refusing to provide the necessary bank records in order to complete that.



It's not clear if the executors owe your wife anything.

Contact your lawyer. Explain what you are seeing. Decide if it's worthwhile to proceed.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:17 pm Why not contact the AG in your state of residence or the state where the estate is located? Executors have responsibilities under law. If they are trustees they have to make a full accounting. I’m not a lawyer in this area but your local bar association should have a free consult line and they can put you in touch with someone who can give you a free lay of the land about your options.
This might be a good point. We're in CA and they are in ND.
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:27 pm
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:17 pm Why not contact the AG in your state of residence or the state where the estate is located? Executors have responsibilities under law. If they are trustees they have to make a full accounting. I’m not a lawyer in this area but your local bar association should have a free consult line and they can put you in touch with someone who can give you a free lay of the land about your options.
This might be a good point. We're in CA and they are in ND.
I’m not in CA but usually the local bar assns can do triage or give you referrals to 3 attorneys. Most are willing to talk for 1/2 hour for free in contemplation of taking a case. You’ll find out the main points pretty quickly and at least get a sense of your options, if not a game plan.
livesoft
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by livesoft »

My spouse was involved in a very long settling of a worthless estate because the deceased lived in a house that she thought she owned, but actually did not own. The house was owned by her deceased husband and did not automatically pass to the spouse upon his death, so someone had to track down all the legal heirs of the said dead husband many of whom had died, so their heirs had to be tracked down in turn. It turned out that more than 32 people owned a piece of that house which was worthless, but it took a while to convince many of them that they had not hit the jackpot. In the end, signatures were gathered and the home was donated to a nearby church which could make use of the small plot of land some day in the future after the home was bulldozed away.
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NCPE
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by NCPE »

Before you lawyer up it might be beneficial to make a visit to whoever is the official in charge of the estates where the will was probated and explain the situation - in North Carolina it is the local County Clerk of Court.

I am really surprised that the authority having jurisdiction would be allowed the estate to be left unsettled this long.

NCPE
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Sandtrap »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm Apologies if this is the wrong forum. Please move if necessary.

My wife's aunt died about 6 years ago.

The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
They refuse to provide any information whatsoever.
They do not respond to texts/phone calls/letters. And have not done so in 5 years.
No response, no communication. No wrap up.
5 years.

Advice appreciated.
Seek legal counsel ASAP.

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Mike Scott
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Mike Scott »

Thinking holistically of all the potential positives and negatives, what do you think you will get out of pursuing this?
veggivet
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by veggivet »

How many billable hours will it take for your lawyer to consume the 13k? How many to consume half of it?
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JoeRetire
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by JoeRetire »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:25 pmThe estate is not settled and there has been no accounting of the assets, including the sale of a condo.
If there's something you want to do about this, your wife needs to contact her lawyer.
Also the final estate tax return needs to be completed and they are refusing to provide the necessary bank records in order to complete that.
That's not your wife's concern, nor actually any of her business. To whom would you expect them to provide the necessary bank records?
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by marcopolo »

veggivet wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:42 pm How many billable hours will it take for your lawyer to consume the 13k? How many to consume half of it?
I am always amused by the knee jerk reactions on this forum to tell people to "lawyer up", sometimes over the most trivial things.

I wonder if the people making that suggestion actually do that in their own real life, or if it just some kind of cathartic response.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by marcopolo »

Sandtrap wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:34 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm Apologies if this is the wrong forum. Please move if necessary.

My wife's aunt died about 6 years ago.

The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
They refuse to provide any information whatsoever.
They do not respond to texts/phone calls/letters. And have not done so in 5 years.
No response, no communication. No wrap up.
5 years.

Advice appreciated.
Seek legal counsel ASAP.

j :D
For what might be about $13k among family members?!?

ASAP?!?
This has been going on for 5 years already, what adverse effect would there be if the OP did that at relaxed pace, instead of ASAP?
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by JoeRetire »

marcopolo wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:48 pm
veggivet wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:42 pm How many billable hours will it take for your lawyer to consume the 13k? How many to consume half of it?
I am always amused by the knee jerk reactions on this forum to tell people to "lawyer up", sometimes over the most trivial things.

I wonder if the people making that suggestion actually do that in their own real life, or if it just some kind of cathartic response.
Perhaps they watch a lot of television, where lawyers are always involved, and a resolution always comes within the hour.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.

Looks like I should get a better probate lawyer.
The current one is ineffectual.

I'm not a neophyte and I appreciate the suggestions but I'm pondering if there's an actual legal process, whether via a lawyer or not, whereby they can be forced to settle the estate after all this time.

As mentioned, only half joking, for all we know they could have spent everything.
Last edited by hotscot on Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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anon_investor
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by anon_investor »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:02 pm 7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.

Looks like I should get a better probate lawyer.
The current one is ineffectual.
Is the estate still in probate?
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by veggivet »

Given that additional information, it probably is worth contacting a more effective lawyer.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by fortunefavored »

13K? what percentage of your current and future net worth is this? Will anything in your life change?

If you're worth millions or will be.. I'd forget about it. If you're at 0 net worth or <$100K.. then yeah, make some noise.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by veggivet »

OP has added the fact that 7 siblings are also due at least 13k. That would total close to 100k.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:05 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:02 pm 7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.

Looks like I should get a better probate lawyer.
The current one is ineffectual.
Is the estate still in probate?
Yes.
Simple estate. 6 years in probate.
To complicate matters...there was already a probate lawyer working with the executors.
She actually left due to non communication re. the executors. re. Letters/phone calls/email/text.

We, my wife and I, then hired another probate lawyer in the area with 2.5K retainer. however I'm not impressed by him. Doesn't seem to have taken much, if any, action.
If we call and ask for a conversation his assistant tells us that will be over 2 weeks away.
Last edited by hotscot on Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by MarkNYC »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:02 pm 7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.
Has your wife discussed the issue with the other 4 siblings who are also being affected by the 2 sibling/executors' inaction?

If you are in CA and the sibling/executors are in ND, does that mean the decedent died as a resident of ND, or was it some other state?

What is your wife's relationship with the 2 sibling/executors, and is she willing to risk permanently damaging that relationship by threatening legal action?
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by anon_investor »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:13 pm
anon_investor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:05 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:02 pm 7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.

Looks like I should get a better probate lawyer.
The current one is ineffectual.
Is the estate still in probate?
Yes.
Simple estate. 6 years.
To complicate matters...there was already a probate lawyer working with the executors.
She actually left due to non communication re. the executors. re. Letters/phone calls/email/text.

We, my wife and I, then hired another probate lawyer in the area with 2.5K retainer. however I'm not impressed by him. Doesn't seem to have taken much, if any, action.
If we call and ask for a conversation his assistant tells us that will be over 2 weeks away.
What is your lawyer doing exactly?
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by CAsage »

If there was a condo, can you research the property transfer or ownership without a lawyer? Would it have passed directly to someone else? Call the local assessor or whoever holds title grants. Can you search the court records directly for the probate court records Were they actually legally appointed executors, which would put them under the courts' supervision? Is there any record of unclaimed property in your Aunt's state? Otherwise.... yes, a lawyer to see if there is a way to force the answer, not sure how much "force" can be applied. And yes, hanky panky very likely here!

https://www.probaterecords.org/north-dakota/
Last edited by CAsage on Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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marcopolo
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by marcopolo »

veggivet wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:12 pm OP has added the fact that 7 siblings are also due at least 13k. That would total close to 100k.
It does not sound like the OP is the executor, so we are not talking about hiring someone to settle the ~$100k estate, but rather hiring someone to sue (or threaten to sue) the executors (who are his wife's siblings) in the hopes of recovering something around $13k for themselves.

The OP in another thread states they are FI with > $4M.
In that situation, I personally would not be looking to sue my in-laws in hopes of gaining $13k, but evidently I am not as litigious as many on this forum.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

MarkNYC wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:15 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:02 pm 7 siblings, $13K minimum, each.
Has your wife discussed the issue with the other 4 siblings who are also being affected by the 2 sibling/executors' inaction?

Two of them are executors and are non communicative.
The rest are very frustrated and feel powerless.

If you are in CA and the sibling/executors are in ND, does that mean the decedent died as a resident of ND, or was it some other state?
Correct

What is your wife's relationship with the 2 sibling/executors, and is she willing to risk permanently damaging that relationship by threatening legal action?
Crossed that line 4 years ago. They're off the Christmas card list.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by lazynovice »

In our wills, the statement appointing the executor says something like “if X is dead or fails to act, then Y is my successor executor.” I guess the “fails to act” is intended for this type of situation.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

marcopolo wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:18 pm
veggivet wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:12 pm OP has added the fact that 7 siblings are also due at least 13k. That would total close to 100k.


The OP in another thread states they are FI with > $4M.
In that situation, I personally would not be looking to sue my in-laws in hopes of gaining $13k, but evidently I am not as litigious as many on this forum.
You are correct. But I mentioned earlier it's not about the money. It's the principal.
@13K, with my dear wife's name on it, is sitting in a probate account when it should be sitting, and invested, in her account.
That's a chunk of green to grow over the next 10-20 years in a Roth.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Makefile »

Does the probate court have a website with a case management system of open estates?
Sometimes you can even download documents related to the estate, without having a lawyer or talk to anyone.
That could be a relatively painless way to get up to date on what's going on behind the scenes.
There is likely a process to have them removed as executors if they have missed deadlines.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

Makefile wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:24 pm Does the probate court have a website with a case management system of open estates?
Sometimes you can even download documents related to the estate, without having a lawyer or talk to anyone.
That could be a relatively painless way to get up to date on what's going on behind the scenes.
There is likely a process to have them removed as executors if they have missed deadlines.
I do not know.
I don't think so.
But it's food for thought.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Makefile »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:25 pm
Makefile wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:24 pm Does the probate court have a website with a case management system of open estates?
Sometimes you can even download documents related to the estate, without having a lawyer or talk to anyone.
That could be a relatively painless way to get up to date on what's going on behind the scenes.
There is likely a process to have them removed as executors if they have missed deadlines.
I do not know.
I don't think so.
But it's food for thought.
If they don't, you should still be able to FOIA any docs related to the estate. Seems more sensible than legal bills to me...
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Sandtrap »

marcopolo wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:51 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:34 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm Apologies if this is the wrong forum. Please move if necessary.

My wife's aunt died about 6 years ago.

The executors, two of my wife siblings, are refusing to complete the relatively simple estate.
They refuse to provide any information whatsoever.
They do not respond to texts/phone calls/letters. And have not done so in 5 years.
No response, no communication. No wrap up.
5 years.

Advice appreciated.
Seek legal counsel ASAP.

j :D
For what might be about $13k among family members?!?

ASAP?!?
This has been going on for 5 years already, what adverse effect would there be if the OP did that at relaxed pace, instead of ASAP?
Yes
Of course, You are correct.

The OP has so many options.
Consulting with professionals in this matter is only one.

There are always infinite ways to approach and look at things for each unique person.
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ychuck46
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by ychuck46 »

They have refused to give any information for five years now, on what appears to be a relatively simple estate? In my opinion your wife's part of the estate, your estimated $13K, is long gone. There is zero reason to string out a simple estate that long unless you were spending it down. I was an executor and wouldn't want the hassle of prolonging the process. Then again I had nothing to hide, nor was I attempting to steal the assets.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

Makefile wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:29 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:25 pm
Makefile wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:24 pm Does the probate court have a website with a case management system of open estates?
Sometimes you can even download documents related to the estate, without having a lawyer or talk to anyone.
That could be a relatively painless way to get up to date on what's going on behind the scenes.
There is likely a process to have them removed as executors if they have missed deadlines.
I do not know.
I don't think so.
But it's food for thought.
If they don't, you should still be able to FOIA any docs related to the estate. Seems more sensible than legal bills to me...


Doesn't that only apply to gov?
I assumed if we need document discovery that would perhaps require a subpoena.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by lstone19 »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:23 pm You are correct. But I mentioned earlier it's not about the money. It's the principal.
So it is about the money (sorry, couldn't resist). Oh wait, you mean principle.

With 100K total and 13K to your wife, it is probably worth investing a few hundred dollars with a lawyer familiar with things where the estate is being settled. I would think an effective local lawyer could do a lot in just a couple of hours.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

lstone19 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:37 pm
hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:23 pm You are correct. But I mentioned earlier it's not about the money. It's the principal.
So it is about the money (sorry, couldn't resist). Oh wait, you mean principle.
Aargh...I hate myself... :oops:
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by Makefile »

hotscot wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:36 pm Doesn't that only apply to gov?
I assumed if we need document discovery that would perhaps require a subpoena.
I'm referring to the things that are actually on file with the court and therefore government docs. For example, things that were correctly filed years ago before they allegedly started ignoring the estate, or perhaps copies of warning letters from the court of missed deadlines for filing certain reports and such. For information held by the executors that they have failed to turn in to the court, of course it would be more like you say.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Those of us recommending legal counsel are not necessarily suggesting anyone sue. We are suggesting that OP inform himself of his wife’s options and the lay of the land.

Maybe there is a central complaint database for such situations in ND. Maybe the statute of limitations has expired, maybe there is an ongoing fraud case and an investigator cannot locate his wife since she is out of state, maybe the decedent amended the will and left the spouse off as beneficiary, maybe an accounting has been prepared and he can get a copy. Maybe it costs 50k to pursue this and is not worth it. Maybe there is a way to check or file something for $8.50 with a clerk in ND that is effective. Maybe the executor is wanted in eight states for fraud.

But a free consult with an attorney can let you know your options so you can decide what is humane and proportionate.
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

Entertaining suggestions:)
Thanks!
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anon_investor
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by anon_investor »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:47 pm Those of us recommending legal counsel are not necessarily suggesting anyone sue. We are suggesting that OP inform himself of his wife’s options and the lay of the land.

Maybe the statute of limitations has expired, maybe there is an ongoing fraud case and an investigator cannot locate his wife since she is out of state, maybe the decedent amended the will and left the spouse off as beneficiary, maybe an accounting has been prepared and he can get a copy. Maybe it costs 50k to pursue this and is not worth it. Maybe there is a way to check or file something for $8.50 with a clerk that is effective. Maybe the executor is wanted in eight states for fraud.

But a free consult with an attorney can let you know your options so you can decide what is humane and proportionate.
OP already paid a $2.5k retainer for an attorney who the OP isn't confident about. Sounds like the OP should go talk to his retained attorney.
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prudent
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by prudent »

With a number of others also waiting for the estate to be settled, perhaps they would all share any expenses required to push the thing to completion.
BreadandButter
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by BreadandButter »

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Last edited by BreadandButter on Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hotscot
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Re: Unresponsive Estate executors

Post by hotscot »

BreadandButter wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:53 pm We spent over $9000 in legal fees to file a motion to compel a family member executor to open probate, then to follow through with all tasks, and finally close it.
Can you tell me a little how you forced matters?
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