Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

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Firemenot
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Firemenot »

chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
Normchad
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Normchad »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:23 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:15 am
bltn wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:15 am Very interesting thread regarding the comments about several highly paid fields of work.

Burn out is an interesting concept. Caused by excessive stress? And stress. Caused by excessive challenge? And without challenge, is there boredom, causing another kind of stress? And eventually burnout? Maybe stress/burnout is due in some part to a personal perspective.

Without challenge requiring personal aptitude for the job and a willingness to work hard, why would compensation be high?

Perhaps an important part of maintaining a long successful career is finding a job that involves an acceptable amount of stress.
I haven't found stress to be highly correlated to pay. My most stressful job paid $50k a year for 80 hours a week of work, and I felt like it was driving me to the brink of insanity.
Agreed. I was way more stressed working at a startup for $80k than I am at a big tech company making 5x that while working half the hours.
I totally agree. I make good money and have stress. But I’m certain everybody else in the world has stress as well. I actually would think there would be more stress for people really living at the economic margins. I’m not complaining. The stress is part of my job, and if I don’t like it, I know where the door is. A lot of people don’t even have that as a realistic option.

Even with that, the stress is very real, for everybody even the very high earners.
Stillwater1971
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Stillwater1971 »

Be careful for what you wish for. You might have noticed from the replies here that there is a common theme from those that earn high six and even seven annual figures.

What is your purpose? Happiness? To get rich? Both?

Many who live to work spend more time at their job to pay for the expensive home they spend little time living in. lol

In the Book, Your Money or Your Life, it has many life lessons for young and old alike and could put things in perspective for you.
Here's a summary of the Book if you're interested:https://yourmoneyoryourlife.com/book-summary/
bltn
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by bltn »

Normchad wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:21 am
HawkeyePierce wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:23 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:15 am
bltn wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:15 am Very interesting thread regarding the comments about several highly paid fields of work.

Burn out is an interesting concept. Caused by excessive stress? And stress. Caused by excessive challenge? And without challenge, is there boredom, causing another kind of stress? And eventually burnout? Maybe stress/burnout is due in some part to a personal perspective.

Without challenge requiring personal aptitude for the job and a willingness to work hard, why would compensation be high?

Perhaps an important part of maintaining a long successful career is finding a job that involves an acceptable amount of stress.
I haven't found stress to be highly correlated to pay. My most stressful job paid $50k a year for 80 hours a week of work, and I felt like it was driving me to the brink of insanity.
Agreed. I was way more stressed working at a startup for $80k than I am at a big tech company making 5x that while working half the hours.
I totally agree. I make good money and have stress. But I’m certain everybody else in the world has stress as well. I actually would think there would be more stress for people really living at the economic margins. I’m not complaining. The stress is part of my job, and if I don’t like it, I know where the door is. A lot of people don’t even have that as a realistic option.

Even with that, the stress is very real, for everybody even the very high earners.
I would think this would be the case. Stress is a part of life. Management is key. (Do I sound like a psychologist? I m not!)
Bungo
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Bungo »

Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:35 am
chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
I don't know if this is true at all employers, but mine included RSU income in my W2, so it was $400k W2 was definitely not BS.
chudat
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by chudat »

Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:35 am
chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
I was just saying that being paid W2 is BS; not that earning 400k is BS. If possible, ask your employer to pay you in 1099.
Firemenot
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Firemenot »

chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:14 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:35 am
chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
I was just saying that being paid W2 is BS; not that earning 400k is BS. If possible, ask your employer to pay you in 1099.
Got it. And agree. I wish my employer’s option plan qualified for cap gains treatment and not ordinary income. I’ll owe more than 50% income taxes if exercise in larger chunks.
tRacer4201
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Re: Very high life satisfaction & happiness, how did you do it?

Post by tRacer4201 »

calmaniac wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:21 am Re: Very high life satisfaction, health, & happiness, how did you do it?

OP, I think you are trying to optimize the wrong variable.

Once you are making $200k, money is not the critical variable to life.
Even if you earn $250K a year, you’ll still have to work and invest for quite some time before you can retire. And the earlier you want to retire, the more you need to accumulate.

For folks like myself, the goal isn’t money so much as independence. I don’t want to have a boss. Maybe I don’t want the anxiety and expectations that come with my work.

Money absolutely is a critical level to life, even at $200K.
Young Boglehead
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Young Boglehead »

2tall4economy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:23 am Pretty much all executives in all Fortune 500s
Some doctors (primarily surgeons)
Some layers (particularly business and litigation)
Some non-management sales and IT people (in Fortune 500)
Some business owners

You’re quoting $400k which youre probably getting from “1%” articles. Those are agi, not gross wages.

You’re really asking $500k gross.

Having recently been appointed to the c suite of an s&p500, and having an unhealthy obsession with wealth data and information, I can say from experience that being in the 1% isn’t all that different from being upper middle class. You’re getting up for work every day, you have one or two nice toys, you still can’t afford a new Italian sports car and have to buy used, you’re still flying economy class and staying on Marriotts. You might have a $1m home but you won’t have a $3m+ home.

It won’t get you comfortably into The “wealth” enclaves in the top 50 zip codes in the country, it won’t get you nice second homes in vacation areas, it won’t get you multiple Ferraris.

At least it won’t get you that stuff while also saving for retirement and putting food on the table.

The real point where income starts funding all the stuff you probably see on tv and associate for rich and famous is the 0.1% or even higher - the $2m or more level per year.

That much is really only a handful of professions:

C suite execs of Fortune 500 / s&p 500 companies

Partners at Wall Street and bankruptcy lawyer firms.

Successful entertainers and business owners (including private practices).

You’ll note pretty much nobody paid majority by salary (ie doctors) makes the list. And even that dries up fast.

And that leaves the top earners in the world:

Very successful Wall Street sheisters paid on assets under management
CEOs at very large very successful companies (public and private)
Very successful business owners and entertainers.
This is exactly why i was saying 400k is upper middle class and not upper class.
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Yefuy.Goje
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Yefuy.Goje »

chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:14 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:35 am
chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
I was just saying that being paid W2 is BS; not that earning 400k is BS. If possible, ask your employer to pay you in 1099.
I thought W2 tends to come with more benefits than 1099, so how is 350k in 1099 better than 400k in W2?
cbs2002
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by cbs2002 »

Young Boglehead wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:22 pm This is exactly why i was saying 400k is upper middle class and not upper class.
400K is 98th percentile HHI in the United States. Call it whatever class you want, but the professions and associated incomes discussed in this thread reflect a tiny, tiny slice of the American work force. By all means if you want to aim for a 400K+ job as a goal, do so, but also be realistic about your chances and don't underestimate the ability to build wealth by investing as much as you can early on.
PoppyA
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by PoppyA »

Directors of some art galleries can make this much & more….
sents13
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by sents13 »

Stillwater1971 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:30 am Be careful for what you wish for. You might have noticed from the replies here that there is a common theme from those that earn high six and even seven annual figures.

What is your purpose? Happiness? To get rich? Both?

Many who live to work spend more time at their job to pay for the expensive home they spend little time living in. lol

In the Book, Your Money or Your Life, it has many life lessons for young and old alike and could put things in perspective for you.
Here's a summary of the Book if you're interested:https://yourmoneyoryourlife.com/book-summary/
People discount how much happiness money can bring them. I'm ridiculously happen since I started my path down to earn higher TC.

Money buys you option, and that gives you the means to live your life however you want. When you ultimately get the FIRE money, that is ultimate happiness. That means that nobody can ever threaten you anymore. You control your own destiny.
EddyB
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by EddyB »

chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:14 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:35 am
chudat wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 am
zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:52 am Shoot, it looks like $400k is the new BH minimum wage!

I'll never come close with my main job... even though it's in tech, I don't want to move from my LCOL area and I don't want to be a manager.

But I'm trying to compensate for that by spending a lot of time on my semi-passive side job, which is starting to get close to matching my main job income.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years I'll qualify to post in this thread, unless I reach my FI number first and call it quits :D
400K w2 is BS; wish my job offered 350K 1099
Why is 400k w2 BS? Admittedly it’s rare, but it’s not impossible.
I was just saying that being paid W2 is BS; not that earning 400k is BS. If possible, ask your employer to pay you in 1099.
Well, if they’re your “employer,” they can’t (at least not legally), because you’re an “employee.” It’s not like one just gets to choose in a vacuum—there are specific legal distinctions. I’m not sure what advantages you imagine justify taking $50,000 less as an independent contractor, but paying the employer half of the FICA taxes is going to further eat into that lower amount.
Young Boglehead
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Young Boglehead »

cbs2002 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:16 pm
Young Boglehead wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:22 pm This is exactly why i was saying 400k is upper middle class and not upper class.
400K is 98th percentile HHI in the United States. Call it whatever class you want, but the professions and associated incomes discussed in this thread reflect a tiny, tiny slice of the American work force. By all means if you want to aim for a 400K+ job as a goal, do so, but also be realistic about your chances and don't underestimate the ability to build wealth by investing as much as you can early on.
Yes. I dont mean to say that people earning 400+ arent doing phenomenally well and that you can do very well making much less than that especially if you invest early and often. Just that i believe the jobs that earn those salaries still result in lives that are much more similar to those with lower incomes, than those with even higher incomes/net worths, than one would think.
Bobby206
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Bobby206 »

Lawyer.
Small law firm.
Partner.
Peaked at $600k of income. All W2.
Tired of working so much.
Now settled in at $300k and working 10-20 hours a week.

How did I do it?
Worked really hard for a number of years, got lucky here and there (and/or made good decisions), and then kept working hard some more!
Always improving systems and operations.
Marketing, marketing, marketing!
ABC - Always be C-elling!
For many businesses, especially my type of B to C practice, just about anybody I meet could be a client or a referral source. You never know who will need an attorney (or so many other professionals and businesses)!
Stephen_Crane
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Location: NY

Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Stephen_Crane »

Bobby206 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:16 pm Lawyer.
Small law firm.
Partner.
Peaked at $600k of income. All W2.
Tired of working so much.
Now settled in at $300k and working 10-20 hours a week.

How did I do it?
Worked really hard for a number of years, got lucky here and there (and/or made good decisions), and then kept working hard some more!
Always improving systems and operations.
Marketing, marketing, marketing!
ABC - Always be C-elling!
For many businesses, especially my type of B to C practice, just about anybody I meet could be a client or a referral source. You never know who will need an attorney (or so many other professionals and businesses)!
You seem to personify the lawyer stereotype well.
sent from my user friendly home computer.
Starfish
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Starfish »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm
harrychan wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:29 pm
Dusn wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:59 am
Shael_AT wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:30 pm Tech, been making 300's - 500's since 2015. Super specialized in a handful of emerging and disruptive markets.

Now at the 900 - 1.2 m per year mark, but I'm at the absolute top of what an individual contributor can and will ever be (Think Principal/Distinguished at a company).

Most of that is equity, but we never re-calibrated to live on, want or need more than the base.

What's crazy is, someone can still make more than this, but that requires going into Management, specifically a "m2" or manager of managers, or "m3", which is a Manager (VP/SVP) of M2's.

That is the kind of stress, time sink, anxiety and human interaction I just absolutely do no want. Worst part is, I am both technical and a social butterfly with an extroverts edge + highly empathy and compassion driven, but I have had my first death (of two) in life, i.e. "The Death Of Innocence" recently and am dismayed, discouraged and distressed over who and what most people are, what their motivations are and how quickly they will turn on you the second you do not serve them or their goals.

[Expletive removed by admin LadyGeek] For all you managers out here, I don't know how you can live a fulfilling emotional life with the kinds of decisions and behaviors you must make and adapt.

Why keep playing harder levels of the game when you have already won
Can someone give an example of what these types of soul sucking decisions that tech managers have to make are and why?
-Firing, layoff, re-org
-Fielding and responding to HR complaints from DR, peers
-Being sued for discrimination or being subpoenaed for court hearing
-Decisions that cost a contract which can be in the millions
-Prioritizing customers which ends up being the wrong one
-Political battles yielding favor from SVP+, C levels
-Petty brag-offs
-Back stabbing, taking credit for your work and ideas
-Disgruntled exceptional employees who jump ship to other team or company

Should I go on?
I think the worst part of being middle management is having to force bad ideas/procedures on the worker bees, who complain that they are bad, and you actually agree with your people, but you don't have the power to push back to the top-level managers, and you have to pretend to agree with the new policies.
That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
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HomerJ
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HomerJ »

Starfish wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm I think the worst part of being middle management is having to force bad ideas/procedures on the worker bees, who complain that they are bad, and you actually agree with your people, but you don't have the power to push back to the top-level managers, and you have to pretend to agree with the new policies.
That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
You don't get promoted to the next level because you're not a "team player".

You really think "Yes men" aren't rewarded for being "Yes men"?
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
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anon_investor
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by anon_investor »

Bobby206 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:16 pm Lawyer.
Small law firm.
Partner.
Peaked at $600k of income. All W2.
Tired of working so much.
Now settled in at $300k and working 10-20 hours a week.

How did I do it?
Worked really hard for a number of years, got lucky here and there (and/or made good decisions), and then kept working hard some more!
Always improving systems and operations.
Marketing, marketing, marketing!
ABC - Always be C-elling!
For many businesses, especially my type of B to C practice, just about anybody I meet could be a client or a referral source. You never know who will need an attorney (or so many other professionals and businesses)!
Kudos to you. :sharebeer

I remember a few years ago when I was still an associate at a big firm, sitting at a breakout session at the firm's annual mandatory retreat on a weekend (when I probably should have been spending time with my kids), the topic was how to transition from being an associate to a successful partner. A partner was talking about how she used every social event for biz dev: PTA, church, etc.; and how she woke up daily thinking about how to develop more business. Coincidently I had just received an offer for an in-house attorney role at a megacap company the day before. I realized I didn't want to spend the rest of my professional life viewing everyone I meet as a potential client. I accepted the in-house offer and gave notice that Monday. Hands down the best decision I have made in my professional life so far.
bluebolt
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by bluebolt »

HomerJ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
Starfish wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm I think the worst part of being middle management is having to force bad ideas/procedures on the worker bees, who complain that they are bad, and you actually agree with your people, but you don't have the power to push back to the top-level managers, and you have to pretend to agree with the new policies.
That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
You don't get promoted to the next level because you're not a "team player".

You really think "Yes men" aren't rewarded for being "Yes men"?
There's a difference between being a team player and a yes man.
The most successful folks I know are perfectly willing to challenge the conventional wisdom when they think it will lead down a better path for the company.

Team player - yes. Yes man - no.
Firemenot
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Firemenot »

bluebolt wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:27 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
Starfish wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm I think the worst part of being middle management is having to force bad ideas/procedures on the worker bees, who complain that they are bad, and you actually agree with your people, but you don't have the power to push back to the top-level managers, and you have to pretend to agree with the new policies.
That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
You don't get promoted to the next level because you're not a "team player".

You really think "Yes men" aren't rewarded for being "Yes men"?
There's a difference between being a team player and a yes man.
The most successful folks I know are perfectly willing to challenge the conventional wisdom when they think it will lead down a better path for the company.

Team player - yes. Yes man - no.
My experience too.
bluebolt
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by bluebolt »

2tall4economy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:23 am That much is really only a handful of professions:

C suite execs of Fortune 500 / s&p 500 companies
Partners at Wall Street and bankruptcy lawyer firms.
Successful entertainers and business owners (including private practices).
You’ll note pretty much nobody paid majority by salary (ie doctors) makes the list. And even that dries up fast.
And that leaves the top earners in the world:

Very successful Wall Street sheisters paid on assets under management
CEOs at very large very successful companies (public and private)
Very successful business owners and entertainers.
Almost everyone I know in VC, PE, and investment banking makes more than $500K. I don't think I'd classify them under the first category in your second list, though you might.
Annabel Lee
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Annabel Lee »

Tigranes wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:44 pm
chudat wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:08 pm
Tigranes wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:56 am Chief actuary at a mid sized insurer.

You generally need to be at least VP or SVP/Officer level to make over the 400k in this industry. Most, maybe 80%, of execs in insurance that I am familiar with got there through networking. Not to say they aren't hard working and diligent people, but certainly not deserving of some olympian analogy.
As a chief actuary, are you taking in high 6 figure / 7 figure salary?

How long have you been working? Fellowship? Any advice for the upward climb would be appreciated
I don't know much about the tech world, but I have interviewed with some private equity backed insurtechs and it is crazy how inexperienced and unqualified some of the executives have been. But I guess they are the ones raising the money?
As a chief actuary, you also have to believe that you’re smarter than everyone else.
tarheel79
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by tarheel79 »

VP Sales @Telecommunications Supplier (Fiber Optics), last 3 years have been kind to the industry. Well over $600k per.
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NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

bltn wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:15 am Burn out is an interesting concept.
One of the best definitions I have heard for burnout is when the sustained long term stress of doing something is not worth the benefit.
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein | *Everything I write here is an unreliable opinion*
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HomerJ
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HomerJ »

Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:30 pm
bluebolt wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:27 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
Starfish wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm
HomerJ wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm I think the worst part of being middle management is having to force bad ideas/procedures on the worker bees, who complain that they are bad, and you actually agree with your people, but you don't have the power to push back to the top-level managers, and you have to pretend to agree with the new policies.
That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
You don't get promoted to the next level because you're not a "team player".

You really think "Yes men" aren't rewarded for being "Yes men"?
There's a difference between being a team player and a yes man.
The most successful folks I know are perfectly willing to challenge the conventional wisdom when they think it will lead down a better path for the company.

Team player - yes. Yes man - no.
My experience too.
You guys are lucky. Or maybe your experience is the norm, and I'm unlucky.

But Yes men exist because Yes men are rewarded. They exist.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by masonstone »

I make a 7 figure income and to be honest more money doesn’t bring you more happiness. In fact the only thing I can think of that an ultra-high net worth person can do that someone making 200K can’t is to have a private jet. Even then a private jet is less safe than commercial travel. Just look at what happened to Kobe.

What brings you satisfaction isn’t more money but a purpose in what you’re doing. I feel like I lack that so even despite my high earnings I don’t have much job satisfaction.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by unbiased »

HomerJ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:56 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:30 pm
bluebolt wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:27 pm
HomerJ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
Starfish wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm

That's pretty spineless. All the managers I am close wit have no problem in disclosing their own opinion with people under or above. Is not even that hard, usually the boss (Sr Director) agrees too. And if they don't agree, so what?
You don't get promoted to the next level because you're not a "team player".

You really think "Yes men" aren't rewarded for being "Yes men"?
There's a difference between being a team player and a yes man.
The most successful folks I know are perfectly willing to challenge the conventional wisdom when they think it will lead down a better path for the company.

Team player - yes. Yes man - no.
My experience too.
You guys are lucky. Or maybe your experience is the norm, and I'm unlucky.

But Yes men exist because Yes men are rewarded. They exist.
Agree they are lucky. Culture varies at so many places. Good practice would allow dissenting opinions--behind closed doors. Bad practice (my work) rewards YES people (with less skill) with higher positions.

But in other corporate environments, management is not the only course to $400K +. My one friend is in sales at a major software company. He makes MORE than the next two management rungs above him (but with variable income). Don't rule sales out.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by mikejuss »

masonstone wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:31 pm I make a 7 figure income and to be honest more money doesn’t bring you more happiness. In fact the only thing I can think of that an ultra-high net worth person can do that someone making 200K can’t is to have a private jet. Even then a private jet is less safe than commercial travel. Just look at what happened to Kobe.

What brings you satisfaction isn’t more money but a purpose in what you’re doing. I feel like I lack that so even despite my high earnings I don’t have much job satisfaction.
And--may I ask--what do you do for a living?
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FlatSix
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by FlatSix »

masonstone wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:31 pm I make a 7 figure income and to be honest more money doesn’t bring you more happiness. In fact the only thing I can think of that an ultra-high net worth person can do that someone making 200K can’t is to have a private jet. Even then a private jet is less safe than commercial travel. Just look at what happened to Kobe.

What brings you satisfaction isn’t more money but a purpose in what you’re doing. I feel like I lack that so even despite my high earnings I don’t have much job satisfaction.
FYI Kobe died in a helicopter crash, not a private jet.

edit: removed some details.
Last edited by FlatSix on Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by RL1013 »

HawkeyePierce wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:23 am This year I'll gross about $430k. I'm a software engineer at a high-profile tech company working from their Colorado satellite office.

Work-life balance is terrific and the job isn't stressful. 30-35 hours a week, lots of PTO, work is strictly 10-5.
Could you please elaborate on which technology you work in? I am in tech for the past 18 years and max I got so far is 120+ in a medium cost of living city.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

RL1013 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:18 pm
HawkeyePierce wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:23 am This year I'll gross about $430k. I'm a software engineer at a high-profile tech company working from their Colorado satellite office.

Work-life balance is terrific and the job isn't stressful. 30-35 hours a week, lots of PTO, work is strictly 10-5.
Could you please elaborate on which technology you work in? I am in tech for the past 18 years and max I got so far is 120+ in a medium cost of living city.
Big data/streaming data API platform at a mid-size SV tech company. Kafka, Beam, Dataflow, AWS/GCP, etc.

It's really not about specific technologies. My skills are around building reliable systems that can operate at massive scale.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by RJC »

It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by smitcat »

RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
I would guess on a post that is titled ... "very high earners, how did you do it?" you will receive a skewed result.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

I’d like to hear about what very high earners did not do and intentionally avoided en route to high incomes, but that’s another thread.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
I would say yes, they are skewed. (and some of them haven’t even chimed in :D )

There are literally millions of people, just in the US, for whom the concerns discussed on BHs are of little interest, or so they think. Then there’s the rest of the world.

Have you noticed that Facebook has more members than BH?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by alfaspider »

RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
Of course. It’s an investing forum. The people who want to talk about investing tend to be those with a decent chunk of change to invest. Not everyone in BH is high income, but it’s certainly not a broad cross section of society. And then, add in the self-selection bias of a thread specifically asking high earners to come forward.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by stoptothink »

alfaspider wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:28 am
RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
Of course. It’s an investing forum. The people who want to talk about investing tend to be those with a decent chunk of change to invest. Not everyone in BH is high income, but it’s certainly not a broad cross section of society. And then, add in the self-selection bias of a thread specifically asking high earners to come forward.
+1 This board is hardly an accurate representation of the general populace when it comes to income, NW, and personal finance ideologies and then you have a thread that is heavily self-selecting. I love this board, but many of the situations and topics discussed bear zero resemblance to the reality that the overwhelming majority of American adults are in (and there is nothing wrong with that). I suspect there are only a handful of people I am remotely close to in the real world who wouldn't be uncomfortable on this board.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by ktdintex »

RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
Most financial web sites and commentators (Suzy Orman, Dave Ramsey, etc.) are geared towards helping people who are at the beginning of their financial journey, such as paying down credit card debt, establishing emergency funds, etc. That's why I like this site so much. It's a lot of people who are past that point, often way past that point, and are have more sophisticated questions and answers.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
I bet it's closer to top 2% than top 5%. Average income here was about $150k in the survey 6 years ago, and with the tech + healthcare + stock market boom plus 6 more years of experience, I'm sure people have been able to more than double it.

Even years ago I started seeing comments about how there's no reason why people shouldn't be making $500k by the time they're 35. I was nowhere near that by 35, but here's hoping for 45.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Firemenot »

zaboomafoozarg wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:10 am
RJC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:00 am It's quite amazing to see how many $400+ incomes on this forum. So are Bogleheads skewed to the top 5% of earners?
I bet it's closer to top 2% than top 5%. Average income here was about $150k in the survey 6 years ago, and with the tech + healthcare + stock market boom plus 6 more years of experience, I'm sure people have been able to more than double it.

Even years ago I started seeing comments about how there's no reason why people shouldn't be making $500k by the time they're 35. I was nowhere near that by 35, but here's hoping for 45.
It’s not a realistic goal for most/many unless they’re willing to do a career change.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by baldtaxguy »

Yefuy.Goje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:09 am Please share your story.

Edit to make it actionable: I moved from a very low income (<$20k) to high income (>$200k) right after a graduate degree that followed straight from undergrad and I was shocked to realize that there are so many people who make multiples of that. I thought I was making a lot of money (and it is a lot!!) but realized that I had a limited imagination because, at the time, I was seeing the people around me, as am I now. So I want to know how people do it.
Being honest with myself as to what I wanted from my career and my employer. Kept my head down, ignored workplace politics and inequities, worked 1000% within the profession and developed value for my employer and its owner/members - value that I am realizing now via my compensation.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by 2tall4economy »

bluebolt wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:33 pm
2tall4economy wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:23 am That much is really only a handful of professions:

C suite execs of Fortune 500 / s&p 500 companies
Partners at Wall Street and bankruptcy lawyer firms.
Successful entertainers and business owners (including private practices).
You’ll note pretty much nobody paid majority by salary (ie doctors) makes the list. And even that dries up fast.
And that leaves the top earners in the world:

Very successful Wall Street sheisters paid on assets under management
CEOs at very large very successful companies (public and private)
Very successful business owners and entertainers.
Almost everyone I know in VC, PE, and investment banking makes more than $500K. I don't think I'd classify them under the first category in your second list, though you might.
Yes I’m generally including them there. That said, That second list is people around $2m+ vs $500k.

In my experience, I’ve had hundreds of recruiters through the years bring me PE jobs and I’ve hired a lot of former investment bankers, and at least in my experience I’ve learned that PE always pays worse than the equivalent experience in a public company once you get to executive level (with huge promises of a mega payout of only you wait 5 years for the ipo that only 10% or less of the companies will ever materialize). And you can look at for example Goldman Sachs proxy filings and see their c suite is paid in line with other other s&p 500s…. Perhaps slightly higher for their revenue size.

Investment bankers wouldn’t have agreed to work for me if the pay was substantially different. The hours certainly weren’t (one of the biggest lies told to college mbas in my experience).

I do think investment banking does have one leg up on a traditional path though - but it’s temporary - they usually get promoted faster and get the money earlier.

But that’s a double edged sword. The fail rate of 30 something cfos (essentially all come from banking) is high. Frankly I wouldn’t put my in a company whose financials were ran by such inexperience (other than by virtue of the fact I own the total market). And I think we’re seeing that in the market lately too (gm, khc, etc).

And when you peel it back a layer or two, the failure rate of 30 something finance vps is very high too. And even directors in their 20s. Once you get past manager level you need to understand fundamentals of finance and business in order to succeed and bankers rarely do, even though they make the same money. So when promotional opportunities come up, the experienced person gets them not the banker (unless their boss is also a banker but that’s a different topic)..
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by Dontsell1 »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:19 am I’d like to hear about what very high earners did not do and intentionally avoided en route to high incomes, but that’s another thread.
Physician. Chose a procedural-specialty. Luckily, I preferred them as 5 days in an office would not fit my personality so it was a win-win. Then went against my mentors’ advice and joined a PP where I had partnership potential rather than a hospital system to be an employee. Increased salary 1.5-2x and improved my lifestyle.

Edit: also not sure how actionable that is beyond owner/part-owner > employee. Medicine is somewhat of a guild. Very long, hard path, but very straightforward wealth-building once you get licensed.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Dontsell1 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:51 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:19 am I’d like to hear about what very high earners did not do and intentionally avoided en route to high incomes, but that’s another thread.
Physician. Chose a procedural-specialty. Luckily, I preferred them as 5 days in an office would not fit my personality so it was a win-win. Then went against my mentors’ advice and joined a PP where I had partnership potential rather than a hospital system to be an employee. Increased salary 1.5-2x and improved my lifestyle.

Edit: also not sure how actionable that is beyond owner/part-owner > employee. Medicine is somewhat of a guild. Very long, hard path, but very straightforward wealth-building once you get licensed.
Yes, very good point. I’m sub 400 at 290k currently after gradual increases, but overall pretty grateful and happy. picking - finding - an area that played to my strengths, interests, qualifications and personality (rather than the popular areas of the month in the 80s when I was making career decisions) was key to enduring employability at a rate / work life balance mix that satisfies me.

I find that Warren Buffett was right when he said the trick to investing is knowing what to say no to. In retrospect the things I said no to were as key as the things I did. We encounter so many choices, from how to invest to how to proceed in any path. here’s to continued good decisions, at least much of the time, and continued learning from mistakes.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by sents13 »

masonstone wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:31 pm I make a 7 figure income and to be honest more money doesn’t bring you more happiness. In fact the only thing I can think of that an ultra-high net worth person can do that someone making 200K can’t is to have a private jet. Even then a private jet is less safe than commercial travel. Just look at what happened to Kobe.

What brings you satisfaction isn’t more money but a purpose in what you’re doing. I feel like I lack that so even despite my high earnings I don’t have much job satisfaction.
That's because you have already made 7 figure income and prob have 8 figure assets. You're not in a position to be "unhappy" by the reasons that plague most normal people. You can always quit your job to do something "more fulfilling".

If you did not went down this path, you would be even more unhappy because you do not have the money to lead a fulfilling life.
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

“Anyone who believes that having a lot of money buys happiness has never had a lot of money.”

—- David Geffen
TheNightsToCome
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:47 am “Anyone who believes that having a lot of money buys happiness has never had a lot of money.”

—- David Geffen
Yes, but holding all else equal, would you be happier with more or less money?
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AnnetteLouisan
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Re: Very high earners ($400k+), how did you do it?

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:50 am
AnnetteLouisan wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:47 am “Anyone who believes that having a lot of money buys happiness has never had a lot of money.”

—- David Geffen
Yes, but holding all else equal, would you be happier with more or less money?
Oh, me? I like money fine!!!

While poverty, war, illness and deprivation truly are abysmal certainly, and no one would dream of minimizing them, my point is only that a commenter above seems to think upon achieving affluence you become some sort of supranormal being rather than remaining a human with disappointments, vulnerabilities, fears, pains, losses and tragedies like every other mortal - his quote was “you’re not in a position to be unhappy for the reasons that plague most normal people.”

David Geffen’s quote - he who experienced and experiences great suffering amidst great wealth - addresses that. His actual quote (just refreshed my recollection) was “happy is harder than money. Anyone who thinks money buys happiness hasn’t got money.”

Money only solves money problems.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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