Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I'm seriously torn right now, and I'm interested in additional perspective, input and advice.
I currently work for a lower-tier FAANG companies making decent change at L5. Recently I have an offer from a tier-2/tier-3 company offering me +1 level at L6, and comp wise is about +35% higher. I may be able to push this to +50% higher with aggressive negotiation and I plan to do so. Yet, I think I will reject the offer, and I am very upset at myself for planning to do so. Why? Because it's a lower tier company.
My career philosophy is prestige before money... this is not born out in isolation but my actual experience in real life.
Here's my reasons for going after prestige:
1) Prestige (company reputation/brand) open doors. I used to be from a no-tier company before I got into a lower-tier FAANG, and I can tell you the job search difference is ridiculous, beyond night and day. Before I got into a brand name company, I was begging for interviews and hoping that recruiters reach out to me. I barely had 20 interviews back then and 5 offers. Since starting my job search a few months ago I have easily gotten interviews with what must be 100+ companies now, and 15+ offers. I have rejected interviews simply because I have no time and they don't seem good enough... it's that good I kid you not.
2) Perhaps you think this must be a function of the hot job market. Absolutely not. One of my juniors (used to intern for me back in no-tier company) is facing the same difficulty I had years ago. She works for a no-tier company and is getting virtually no call backs. She has 1 offer after searching for months, I am very sad for her.
3) The level of difficulty during interview is also altered with prestige. If I am interviewing with a lower-tier company, I can tell that the interviewers are bending over backwards to "make it easy" for me to pass the interview. They give me the benefit of doubt when I make mistakes. Perception is half the battle, and with prestige you already won half the battle. Unless you're upgrading tier, you must do really badly to screw up interviews (assuming you did prep well).
4) Prestige also confers job security. If I get laid off today, I can 100% count on my employer brand name to open doors to new positions. I only neeed to pass the interviews. The only question is whether or not the next job will be as good as my current one.
But... everyone has a price. Eventually money wins out because:
1) If I get enough to hit my coastFIRE number (I don't need to work to save for retirement anymore) that means I can work for any job that I want. So all that prestige reasons for job security, easy interviews, etc... is not going to matter if I just have the cash.
My dream to chase the prestige ladder and to be honest I think I will be happier taking a 10-20% paycut to get a high L5 at a top tier FAANG vs a tier 2 L6. But... I don't have an offer from a top tier FAANG yet, and partly I'm only 50/50 confident I can crack the interviews at this point in time. Also, I've been preparing for over half a year for this final showdown with FAANG where I will interview with most of them. I feel that if I do not see this process to its end, and quit early by taking a tier 2 offer that admittedly pays very well, I will lookback with regret because I've never tested myself to see if I could have "made it". But of course... if I don't get an L5 offer from my target companies and I rejected this L6 offer then I just did something really dumb.
To pre-empt the "follow your passion", "what do you like to do" crowd... I'll just say this, I don't care. What I am passionate and excited about today in all honestly is how I can turn on LinkedIn and get recruiters reaching out every day. What I am excited about is going to trade show and work conferences and say "I work for Megacorp" and get instant name recognition, admiration and social status. In fact in the first few years of working at my current employer has been the happiest time of my life. By downgrading to a tier 2 company I fear I will lose all of that... and given how hard it has been to get to where I am today, I am also not confident I can move back to top tier should I leave.
In my opinion, taking the money and losing prestige seems like a short-term gain but ultimately long-term harm, or a "penny wise pound foolish" move. Sigh... Assuming I am going to either accept or reject this offer, what other considerations can you think of? Or are there certain claims I have made that you would challenge?
I currently work for a lower-tier FAANG companies making decent change at L5. Recently I have an offer from a tier-2/tier-3 company offering me +1 level at L6, and comp wise is about +35% higher. I may be able to push this to +50% higher with aggressive negotiation and I plan to do so. Yet, I think I will reject the offer, and I am very upset at myself for planning to do so. Why? Because it's a lower tier company.
My career philosophy is prestige before money... this is not born out in isolation but my actual experience in real life.
Here's my reasons for going after prestige:
1) Prestige (company reputation/brand) open doors. I used to be from a no-tier company before I got into a lower-tier FAANG, and I can tell you the job search difference is ridiculous, beyond night and day. Before I got into a brand name company, I was begging for interviews and hoping that recruiters reach out to me. I barely had 20 interviews back then and 5 offers. Since starting my job search a few months ago I have easily gotten interviews with what must be 100+ companies now, and 15+ offers. I have rejected interviews simply because I have no time and they don't seem good enough... it's that good I kid you not.
2) Perhaps you think this must be a function of the hot job market. Absolutely not. One of my juniors (used to intern for me back in no-tier company) is facing the same difficulty I had years ago. She works for a no-tier company and is getting virtually no call backs. She has 1 offer after searching for months, I am very sad for her.
3) The level of difficulty during interview is also altered with prestige. If I am interviewing with a lower-tier company, I can tell that the interviewers are bending over backwards to "make it easy" for me to pass the interview. They give me the benefit of doubt when I make mistakes. Perception is half the battle, and with prestige you already won half the battle. Unless you're upgrading tier, you must do really badly to screw up interviews (assuming you did prep well).
4) Prestige also confers job security. If I get laid off today, I can 100% count on my employer brand name to open doors to new positions. I only neeed to pass the interviews. The only question is whether or not the next job will be as good as my current one.
But... everyone has a price. Eventually money wins out because:
1) If I get enough to hit my coastFIRE number (I don't need to work to save for retirement anymore) that means I can work for any job that I want. So all that prestige reasons for job security, easy interviews, etc... is not going to matter if I just have the cash.
My dream to chase the prestige ladder and to be honest I think I will be happier taking a 10-20% paycut to get a high L5 at a top tier FAANG vs a tier 2 L6. But... I don't have an offer from a top tier FAANG yet, and partly I'm only 50/50 confident I can crack the interviews at this point in time. Also, I've been preparing for over half a year for this final showdown with FAANG where I will interview with most of them. I feel that if I do not see this process to its end, and quit early by taking a tier 2 offer that admittedly pays very well, I will lookback with regret because I've never tested myself to see if I could have "made it". But of course... if I don't get an L5 offer from my target companies and I rejected this L6 offer then I just did something really dumb.
To pre-empt the "follow your passion", "what do you like to do" crowd... I'll just say this, I don't care. What I am passionate and excited about today in all honestly is how I can turn on LinkedIn and get recruiters reaching out every day. What I am excited about is going to trade show and work conferences and say "I work for Megacorp" and get instant name recognition, admiration and social status. In fact in the first few years of working at my current employer has been the happiest time of my life. By downgrading to a tier 2 company I fear I will lose all of that... and given how hard it has been to get to where I am today, I am also not confident I can move back to top tier should I leave.
In my opinion, taking the money and losing prestige seems like a short-term gain but ultimately long-term harm, or a "penny wise pound foolish" move. Sigh... Assuming I am going to either accept or reject this offer, what other considerations can you think of? Or are there certain claims I have made that you would challenge?
Last edited by sents13 on Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I wouldn’t call a 50% increase in comp, when you already probably make a boatload of money, penny wise and pound foolish.
I’d gladly work for less prestigious companies if it meant that type of increase…
I’d gladly work for less prestigious companies if it meant that type of increase…
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I think you do have an answer, and it sounds good fot you.
Your age and more specifically years left at working age is another thing I'd consider. Prestige of company pays back later on. In other words, brand-name companies can afford to pay you a bit less because they know you can get more once you get out. Clearly, if you have very few working years left in life, that benefit is not so valuable.
Real life experience of a person in megacorp FMCG who in early 30s accepted a +30-40% salary increase to move to a smaller company... which he then left and then had a very hard time finding a job paying that much. As with financial analysts pricing stocks, HR departments know well the value of the company brand, and factor it in.
I would say there's no reason for regrets
Your age and more specifically years left at working age is another thing I'd consider. Prestige of company pays back later on. In other words, brand-name companies can afford to pay you a bit less because they know you can get more once you get out. Clearly, if you have very few working years left in life, that benefit is not so valuable.
Real life experience of a person in megacorp FMCG who in early 30s accepted a +30-40% salary increase to move to a smaller company... which he then left and then had a very hard time finding a job paying that much. As with financial analysts pricing stocks, HR departments know well the value of the company brand, and factor it in.
I would say there's no reason for regrets
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
How long have you been working for this “lower tier FAANG” you speak of?
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I am retired and really dating myself but "back in the day" that sounds exactly the way that people who worked at IBM talked.
Times eventually change and when IBM was past its prime many of the former IBM employees found that they were not very employable because their skills were IBM centric and they often were seen as having a bit of an undesirable attitude.
After working for IBM a long time when the IBM gravy train ended they were often in their 40s and 50s and found they could not find other tech jobs so they either retired if they were lucky or found other jobs. More than once I have been at places like Home Depot and found myself talking to an ex-IBMer who was now working there.
One thing to consider which jobs will allow you to develop your skills and advance to higher levels.
Times eventually change and when IBM was past its prime many of the former IBM employees found that they were not very employable because their skills were IBM centric and they often were seen as having a bit of an undesirable attitude.
After working for IBM a long time when the IBM gravy train ended they were often in their 40s and 50s and found they could not find other tech jobs so they either retired if they were lucky or found other jobs. More than once I have been at places like Home Depot and found myself talking to an ex-IBMer who was now working there.
One thing to consider which jobs will allow you to develop your skills and advance to higher levels.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
IMO, choices like this should be driven by personal goals, not money. You likely don’t need the money so it will have limited utility. But if the new job offers an opportunity of interest, that should be the primary motivation. Extra money is the gravy.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Is L6 at new company higher in scope and expectations than your current L5?
If so, why not take the new role plus new compensation, then re-interview in 1-2 years as an L6 back at your top-tier companies. Being a well-performing L6 elsewhere is the best evidence you would be a well-performing L6 at ABC corp too, and moving to a smaller place for a bigger title is a standard way to grow a career. In your case it also comes w a big raise, win-win.
I don’t think changing jobs would be bad for future recruitment opportunities either, because you still have your past experience on your resume, and you’re adding another company with a role that shows career progression .
If so, why not take the new role plus new compensation, then re-interview in 1-2 years as an L6 back at your top-tier companies. Being a well-performing L6 elsewhere is the best evidence you would be a well-performing L6 at ABC corp too, and moving to a smaller place for a bigger title is a standard way to grow a career. In your case it also comes w a big raise, win-win.
I don’t think changing jobs would be bad for future recruitment opportunities either, because you still have your past experience on your resume, and you’re adding another company with a role that shows career progression .
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Everyone is different in their desires and also their situations. I've never chased money or status, my only interest was enjoying what I did and having my freedom (i.e., I have zero interest in working more than 40 hrs). In my late 50s now and I've accomplished that at a variety of companies w/o ever being unemployed. I could have made a ton more money going another route (I'm a EE doing mostly programming/computer security work) but I've done a lot of unique stuff and enjoyed my personal time.
Now if I was younger would I consider a job at a Google, sure. I've talked to a few FAANG companies in the last couple of years but the jobs required being in CA which isn't in my future (no interest in moving to a VHCOL at this point in my life) but if I was in my 20s and didn't care about sharing a place with other people and chasing the stock options then maybe I would have done so.
If you leave your current job, how likely would they consider rehiring you down the road?
Now if I was younger would I consider a job at a Google, sure. I've talked to a few FAANG companies in the last couple of years but the jobs required being in CA which isn't in my future (no interest in moving to a VHCOL at this point in my life) but if I was in my 20s and didn't care about sharing a place with other people and chasing the stock options then maybe I would have done so.
If you leave your current job, how likely would they consider rehiring you down the road?
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Prestige wanes, I wouldn't chase it. I'd be happy to take the cash if I loved the job, and fly under the radar. I could care less about bragging rights on LinkedIn.
My Megacorp is my "grandfather's prestige company". Despite a thriving business, history of innovation, Fortune 500, major sports sponsorship, etc. people in their twenties have never heard of us. (These darn kids! )
My Megacorp is my "grandfather's prestige company". Despite a thriving business, history of innovation, Fortune 500, major sports sponsorship, etc. people in their twenties have never heard of us. (These darn kids! )
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
It sounds like you have this figured out; no need to walk about from your current gig to work for a company you won't be happy at. Someone else will take that job, and it sounds like you should let them have it.
Why exactly are you interviewing and accepting offers from companies you know you'll likely reject? I mean, 15 rejected offers? I haven't had 15 job offers in my entire professional career! Hah. Of course, I work at a megacorp, which has tremendous name recognition but hardly elite status. When I interviewed for this position, I wasn't interviewing anywhere else. I got the offer, accepted it, and didn't give a second thought to drumming up comparison offers.
To me, it sounds like you should be targeting the companies you're after instead of wasting your time (and other people's time) interviewing for jobs you don't want. Unless you're practicing? Or, is there another goal here?
I almost feel foolish responding... I'm in tech (and in the Bay Area), but my experiences are probably nothing like yours. It's almost like me trying to give a doctor advice on his professional questions to the BH community. You FAANG developers seem to be living a totally different professional life than the rest of us.
I do wish you luck, and think you should continue pursuing your goals instead of settling.
Why exactly are you interviewing and accepting offers from companies you know you'll likely reject? I mean, 15 rejected offers? I haven't had 15 job offers in my entire professional career! Hah. Of course, I work at a megacorp, which has tremendous name recognition but hardly elite status. When I interviewed for this position, I wasn't interviewing anywhere else. I got the offer, accepted it, and didn't give a second thought to drumming up comparison offers.
To me, it sounds like you should be targeting the companies you're after instead of wasting your time (and other people's time) interviewing for jobs you don't want. Unless you're practicing? Or, is there another goal here?
I almost feel foolish responding... I'm in tech (and in the Bay Area), but my experiences are probably nothing like yours. It's almost like me trying to give a doctor advice on his professional questions to the BH community. You FAANG developers seem to be living a totally different professional life than the rest of us.
I do wish you luck, and think you should continue pursuing your goals instead of settling.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I agree with you, but I don't think that's what he's saying. It feels like he wants to work for the elite FAANG companies, and he believes taking this job will hurt his chances of doing so in the long run.ClevrChico wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:49 am Prestige wanes, I wouldn't chase it. I'd be happy to take the cash if I loved the job, and fly under the radar. I could care less about bragging rights on LinkedIn.
My Megacorp is my "grandfather's prestige company". Despite a thriving business, history of innovation, Fortune 500, major sports sponsorship, etc. people in their twenties have never heard of us. (These darn kids! )
And I get that. If your dream is to work at Apple, and you feel this new job will make it harder for you to reach that goal, is it worth taking the gig?
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
What you may not be taking into account is that this lower tier FAANG company is now already on your resume.
If you take the new job and then re-interview at FAANG companies in a few years, you're not going to run in to the same resistance you ran into it when you tried to interview in the past. The FAANG prestige gain is permanent. It MAY not be as strong of an interviewing position as being currently employed there, but it certainly doesn't reset to 0.
Two of my best friends are FAANG tech guys, and they've gone back and forth a few times already. The only purpose of banking this prestige is to eventually cash it in for a big pay gain......if not now, then when? And again, it's not a one-time use card
If you take the new job and then re-interview at FAANG companies in a few years, you're not going to run in to the same resistance you ran into it when you tried to interview in the past. The FAANG prestige gain is permanent. It MAY not be as strong of an interviewing position as being currently employed there, but it certainly doesn't reset to 0.
Two of my best friends are FAANG tech guys, and they've gone back and forth a few times already. The only purpose of banking this prestige is to eventually cash it in for a big pay gain......if not now, then when? And again, it's not a one-time use card
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Can someone other than OP give me an example of what a lower tier FAANG is? I'm not in the know, sorry, and am curious about the game/gig though. Is there a website that has someone's opinion of this laid out?
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
It’s very subjective, and I’m sure varies by role, but maybe top tier is Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, stripe?
Then perhaps Microsoft, square, Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, LinkedIn?
Later on, perhaps something like Salesforce, intuit, workday, GitHub, Adobe
Not saying that’s “the list” but that’s a flavor
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
OP,
The correct answer is "it depends".
What is your own personal brand and reputation? What is your own prestige? Is it strong enough that it won't matter who you work for?
Let's take an example, if you are a lead architect on a well known project across your industry, does it really matters who you work for later? Your track record and reputation speaks for itself.
In the beginning of your career, it might be useful to work for a higher tier employer with good training and reputation. But, at the highest level, it is all about your own brand and reputation. For example, how many patents had been granted to your name in your specific? How many billion dollar projects and technology leading project were you on? What is your actual track records?
In summary, it is useful to work for a higher tier employer up to a point. But, in a higher tier and better organized employer, you may not be able to lead a whole project and doing more interesting stuff. It is a trade off. In the end, your brand and reputation resides with you. Your employer brand and prestige may not have matter as much as soon as you leave the employer.
Where you are in your career path? IMHO, what you actually do and accomplish matters a lot more than who you work for.
KlangFool
The correct answer is "it depends".
What is your own personal brand and reputation? What is your own prestige? Is it strong enough that it won't matter who you work for?
Let's take an example, if you are a lead architect on a well known project across your industry, does it really matters who you work for later? Your track record and reputation speaks for itself.
In the beginning of your career, it might be useful to work for a higher tier employer with good training and reputation. But, at the highest level, it is all about your own brand and reputation. For example, how many patents had been granted to your name in your specific? How many billion dollar projects and technology leading project were you on? What is your actual track records?
In summary, it is useful to work for a higher tier employer up to a point. But, in a higher tier and better organized employer, you may not be able to lead a whole project and doing more interesting stuff. It is a trade off. In the end, your brand and reputation resides with you. Your employer brand and prestige may not have matter as much as soon as you leave the employer.
Where you are in your career path? IMHO, what you actually do and accomplish matters a lot more than who you work for.
KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Well, you have pleasant decisions ahead. I read your post twice. Read the other BH's comments carefully.
My take: Go for the money, salt excess cash in index funds, -- it will help you get to FI quicker. Change is exhilarating -- especially if you are in the driver's seat and getting more money.
That's my 4 cents, inflation, you know!
Good luck -- keep us informed.
My take: Go for the money, salt excess cash in index funds, -- it will help you get to FI quicker. Change is exhilarating -- especially if you are in the driver's seat and getting more money.
That's my 4 cents, inflation, you know!
Good luck -- keep us informed.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
It means Apple or Amazon, which are generally easier places for SDEs to get hired than Facebook, Netflix, and Google.
Your FAANG company can match that offer. They're not going to lose a good L5 they've invested in over the last few years just because of a 35% difference in comp. I've heard a few stories like this recently in happy hour chats.sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:13 am I currently work for a lower-tier FAANG companies making decent change at L5. Recently I have an offer from a tier-2/tier-3 company offering me +1 level at L6, and comp wise is about +35% higher. I may be able to push this to +50% higher with aggressive negotiation and I plan to do so. Yet, I think I will reject the offer, and I am very upset at myself for planning to do so. Why? Because it's a lower tier company.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I left a top tier investment bank to go to one that was just a step behind and wrestled with this dilemma. Turns out the top tier firm I left fell on hard times and the second tier one has done great. My point here is that status is constantly changing. Certainly in tech.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Apologies in advance for being blunt. You don't sound confident in your skills or abilities so want to hang on to your current employer as you perceive you lucked in and won't be able to do so again. I don't know if your perception is accurate but "Imposter Syndrome" is a real thing in the tech world so take that in to consideration before you short change yourself.
Also, once you've got (5+ years of) FAANG on your resume its weight holds for a long time.
Also, once you've got (5+ years of) FAANG on your resume its weight holds for a long time.
Taking care of tomorrow while enjoying today.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Yes, it is true L6 with increased scope and comp. Your plan is sound, but in FAANG world it is very hard to get hired externally as L6. I've heard that sometimes they will only offer L6 if you are L6 from a competitor of similar tier and you do well in interviews.muffins14 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:00 am Is L6 at new company higher in scope and expectations than your current L5?
If so, why not take the new role plus new compensation, then re-interview in 1-2 years as an L6 back at your top-tier companies. Being a well-performing L6 elsewhere is the best evidence you would be a well-performing L6 at ABC corp too, and moving to a smaller place for a bigger title is a standard way to grow a career. In your case it also comes w a big raise, win-win.
I don’t think changing jobs would be bad for future recruitment opportunities either, because you still have your past experience on your resume, and you’re adding another company with a role that shows career progression .
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Wait, I just realized you also started another thread where you are talking about taking on two jobs at the same time while teleworking without telling either employer you are doing so.
Seriously, if you are working for a FAANG as a L5 that is a really, really bad idea unless you have prior permission from both companies to moonlight.
You may have even signed a pre-employment agreement saying you would not do so.
Seriously, if you are working for a FAANG as a L5 that is a really, really bad idea unless you have prior permission from both companies to moonlight.
You may have even signed a pre-employment agreement saying you would not do so.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Well they won’t give you L6 if you do poorly in interviews, so you’ve gotta do well somewhere. Maybe you make L7 at your new company then go back to FANG L6 but higher comp againsents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:08 amYes, it is true L6 with increased scope and comp. Your plan is sound, but in FAANG world it is very hard to get hired externally as L6. I've heard that sometimes they will only offer L6 if you are L6 from a competitor of similar tier and you do well in interviews.muffins14 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:00 am Is L6 at new company higher in scope and expectations than your current L5?
If so, why not take the new role plus new compensation, then re-interview in 1-2 years as an L6 back at your top-tier companies. Being a well-performing L6 elsewhere is the best evidence you would be a well-performing L6 at ABC corp too, and moving to a smaller place for a bigger title is a standard way to grow a career. In your case it also comes w a big raise, win-win.
I don’t think changing jobs would be bad for future recruitment opportunities either, because you still have your past experience on your resume, and you’re adding another company with a role that shows career progression .
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
- AerialWombat
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
deleted
Last edited by AerialWombat on Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
That was the other option on the table, but I'm likely not to pursue that.stan1 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:15 am Wait, I just realized you also started another thread where you are talking about taking on two jobs at the same time while teleworking without telling either employer you are doing so.
Seriously, if you are working for a FAANG as a L5 that is a really, really bad idea unless you have prior permission from both companies to moonlight.
You may have even signed a pre-employment agreement saying you would not do so.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Levels are basically ranks. Like Associate (L3) -> Sr. Associate (L4) -> VP (L5) -> ED (L6) -> MD (L7) if you're working in banks, and I included the approx level mapping between finance and tech. Or consultant (L3) -> Sr. Consultant (L4) -> Manager/Lead (L5) -> Principal/Assoc. Partner (L6) -> Partner (L7) if you're working on consultingAerialWombat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:27 am What is L5 and L6?
What is Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 tech company?
I have literally never heard these terms before.
Later in life, when the prestige of your current employer has waned (see IBM example upthread), and you come to interview for a developer job at my dinky little, no-name software company, I’m not going to give a single rat’s patootie about what fancy title you held at some big-wig monster co. It’s only going to come down to your skills and whether you can do the job.
Take the money and run now, so you can hit FI and never have to worry about slummin’ it at a company like mine.
Tiers are more of an informal ranking of a company reputation/brand in that sector. For example, in consulting McKinsey, BCG and Bain would be Tier 1. Deloitte would be Tier 2/3. Don't know enough about finance but I'm sure they have their own tier system.
- anon_investor
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Are you trying to work until you are 65?sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:40 amLevels are basically ranks. Like Associate (L3) -> Sr. Associate (L4) -> VP (L5) -> ED (L6) -> MD (L7) if you're working in banks, and I included the approx level mapping between finance and tech. Or consultant (L3) -> Sr. Consultant (L4) -> Manager/Lead (L5) -> Principal/Assoc. Partner (L6) -> Partner (L7) if you're working on consultingAerialWombat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:27 am What is L5 and L6?
What is Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 tech company?
I have literally never heard these terms before.
Later in life, when the prestige of your current employer has waned (see IBM example upthread), and you come to interview for a developer job at my dinky little, no-name software company, I’m not going to give a single rat’s patootie about what fancy title you held at some big-wig monster co. It’s only going to come down to your skills and whether you can do the job.
Take the money and run now, so you can hit FI and never have to worry about slummin’ it at a company like mine.
Tiers are more of an informal ranking of a company reputation/brand in that sector. For example, in consulting McKinsey, BCG and Bain would be Tier 1. Deloitte would be Tier 2/3. Don't know enough about finance but I'm sure they have their own tier system.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
No, I'm in my 30s now, so it's middle age for tech. I plan to be able to coastFIRE in 10 years time.
But I actually like my job, so I dont see myself quitting. I do see myself quitting for politics reason and other stuff like that.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
If you plan to coat FIRE on 10 years why does prestige matter that much? Maximize the money you earn today.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Technically you are correct. But I'm always worried I will need more money, or if I lose my job for whatever reason (in a tier 2 company) I won't be able to get a better job than I used too. I fought very hard to get to where I am today, and my biggest fear is backsliding into something worse.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:59 amIf you plan to coat FIRE on 10 years why does prestige matter that much? Maximize the money you earn today.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
What's to say your current company doesn't lay you off and then you're out of a job having not made that extra money?sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:05 pmTechnically you are correct. But I'm always worried I will need more money, or if I lose my job for whatever reason (in a tier 2 company) I won't be able to get a better job than I used too. I fought very hard to get to where I am today, and my biggest fear is backsliding into something worse.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:59 amIf you plan to coat FIRE on 10 years why does prestige matter that much? Maximize the money you earn today.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
OP. I don't think you are looking at this the right way. And I say this as someone working in my 3rd FAANG now (I have clocked in 13+ years at the 3 FAANGS). A few things to think about :
1) In Tech, you only have a limited time window in which you can make money. Once you enter your 40's you will encounter significant age-ism, unless you have very deep subject matter expertise or you are well known in the industry. It gets harder and harder to LeetCode/HackerRank competitively in your 40s and 50s to kill it in the interviews (even if you do well in interviews, companies will almost always pick a much younger candidate who did as well as you did in the interview). Also, even within companies, there is significant age'ism related issues (again unless you have some top tier subject matter expertise or you are well known). Moral : Make the most $$$ while you can, even if it involves switching companies.
2) As you know, at FAANGs, L5 is a Terminal level. It is very hard to crack into L6, much harder still to crack L7. Getting to L8 is breaking the sound barrier (this is for purely Tech roles, it is easier to climb the TL/Management ladder, if you possess the requisite political/networking skills). Given this, your Total Compensation will definitely be very bounded at L5.
3) For most people, the FAANG is usually just something they want to flash on their resume, so they can get better opportunities. Usually a 4 year stint at a FAANG is all that matters. The law of diminishing marginal utility kicks in big time after that.
4) FAANG is an excellent springboard to jump off to more lucrative smaller but well established startups (eg the likes of Stripe), where you could potentially make bigger bucks.
You mention a 50% bump in Total Comp in the new company. Take it !!
1) In Tech, you only have a limited time window in which you can make money. Once you enter your 40's you will encounter significant age-ism, unless you have very deep subject matter expertise or you are well known in the industry. It gets harder and harder to LeetCode/HackerRank competitively in your 40s and 50s to kill it in the interviews (even if you do well in interviews, companies will almost always pick a much younger candidate who did as well as you did in the interview). Also, even within companies, there is significant age'ism related issues (again unless you have some top tier subject matter expertise or you are well known). Moral : Make the most $$$ while you can, even if it involves switching companies.
2) As you know, at FAANGs, L5 is a Terminal level. It is very hard to crack into L6, much harder still to crack L7. Getting to L8 is breaking the sound barrier (this is for purely Tech roles, it is easier to climb the TL/Management ladder, if you possess the requisite political/networking skills). Given this, your Total Compensation will definitely be very bounded at L5.
3) For most people, the FAANG is usually just something they want to flash on their resume, so they can get better opportunities. Usually a 4 year stint at a FAANG is all that matters. The law of diminishing marginal utility kicks in big time after that.
4) FAANG is an excellent springboard to jump off to more lucrative smaller but well established startups (eg the likes of Stripe), where you could potentially make bigger bucks.
You mention a 50% bump in Total Comp in the new company. Take it !!
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
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This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
So you want to guarantee something worse by not taking a 50% raise at a "lower tier" company? I'll echo what was said above, these are your money making years, and you should make the most of them.sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:05 pmTechnically you are correct. But I'm always worried I will need more money, or if I lose my job for whatever reason (in a tier 2 company) I won't be able to get a better job than I used too. I fought very hard to get to where I am today, and my biggest fear is backsliding into something worse.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:59 amIf you plan to coat FIRE on 10 years why does prestige matter that much? Maximize the money you earn today.
Does this new company have a future vision you believe in? Is it a high growth company? If so, getting in while it's growing is going to do you better than an established megacorp FAANG will. All the FAANG's used to be "low tier" at one point too. It's tech, things change quickly.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I've never thought anyone at these companies cared about "Pedigree", to be honest.
I'd think your actual accomplishments, and more importantly people in your network who can speak to those accomplishments matters much more than whatever the flavor of the month company is on teamblind. Especially true for getting selected for key roles as an outsider.
I've worked at 2 megacap tech companies, not back to back, and I'm currently at one that is either "Tier-1" or "Tier-2" depending on who you ask. The only reputation I cared about was how much employees enjoyed working for the company, which you may find is much higher at some of these companies than others. Before and in-between I've worked at random companies no one has have never heard of and my BS degree is unrelated to CS and also from a school no one has ever heard of. Despite all of this, getting interviews for technical roles at these companies was never difficult. Of course, actually getting hired was not easy, it did take me a few tries, but I've always felt like it was within reach.
I'd think your actual accomplishments, and more importantly people in your network who can speak to those accomplishments matters much more than whatever the flavor of the month company is on teamblind. Especially true for getting selected for key roles as an outsider.
I've worked at 2 megacap tech companies, not back to back, and I'm currently at one that is either "Tier-1" or "Tier-2" depending on who you ask. The only reputation I cared about was how much employees enjoyed working for the company, which you may find is much higher at some of these companies than others. Before and in-between I've worked at random companies no one has have never heard of and my BS degree is unrelated to CS and also from a school no one has ever heard of. Despite all of this, getting interviews for technical roles at these companies was never difficult. Of course, actually getting hired was not easy, it did take me a few tries, but I've always felt like it was within reach.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Haha, what does that mean? You pay low wages, expect a lot of productivity, and in general are a pain in the behind to work for? I guess you are saying when people step out of a high profile tech job and want something less stressful for less pay a small software startup may not be the place to go find that work life balance.AerialWombat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:18 pm
Take the money now, so that you never have to become my employe in your twilight years.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
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This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Of course skills are what matter. The problem is, how are you going to find that person with the right skills? I have 100 inbound resumes right now for an open position. Am I really going to read through the bullet points of each one to suss out whether the candidate has the right skills and can do the job?AerialWombat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:27 am What is L5 and L6?
What is Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 tech company?
I have literally never heard these terms before.
Later in life, when the prestige of your current employer has waned (see IBM example upthread), and you come to interview for a developer job at my dinky little, no-name software company, I’m not going to give a single rat’s patootie about what fancy title you held at some big-wig monster co. It’s only going to come down to your skills and whether you can do the job.
Take the money and run now, so you can hit FI and never have to worry about slummin’ it at a company like mine.
Or am I going to scan each resume for 30 seconds, focusing on education and employer as a proxy for skills?
Prestige matters for a reason, and not just because people are elitist.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
yep, next "Great Recession" either company could boot the OP out the doorCZjc1330 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:15 am Well, you have pleasant decisions ahead. I read your post twice. Read the other BH's comments carefully.
My take: Go for the money, salt excess cash in index funds, -- it will help you get to FI quicker. Change is exhilarating -- especially if you are in the driver's seat and getting more money.
That's my 4 cents, inflation, you know!
Good luck -- keep us informed.
if so, they may well never see compensation like that ever again.
so go for the higher $ and save as much as possible.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
They're job levels, somewhat specific to the particular company. Levels.fyi is a good resource for comparing the levels and pay among different tech companies.
Where I've worked, an L5 software engineer is someone who is self directed and can complete a difficult technical project without supervision. They may be a tech lead of a small team, but they're still primarily an individual contributor. An L6 is someone who has taken on a significant leadership role -- sometimes a manager, sometimes a tech lead of a large group. They're expected to have some level of visibility at the organization level, beyond their own team. L6 is a pretty different job than lower levels, because their primary job is leading rather than doing. Most engineers top out at L5.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Beyond L6 it will become much more about your network and reputation. These are >$3M/yr roles where companies are willing to invest more time on background research on a small number of candidates.
I agree though that (sadly) FAMANG still gets used as a lazy screening tool for us commoners. It's not that different than other industries. I'm sure McKinsey or Goldman Sachs opens just as many doors. I don't have anything like this on my CV and probably go through extra scrutiny since no other "top tier" firm has pre-validated me.
I agree though that (sadly) FAMANG still gets used as a lazy screening tool for us commoners. It's not that different than other industries. I'm sure McKinsey or Goldman Sachs opens just as many doors. I don't have anything like this on my CV and probably go through extra scrutiny since no other "top tier" firm has pre-validated me.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
“Prestige” is a means to an end. What end? Lots of money? Early retirement? Turning down a 50% raise to continue doing work you enjoy at a less prestigious company sounds like you’re NOT pursuing your end goal but letting yourself get distracted by labels. All the “tiers” and “levels” in your industry have been engineered to make you feel this way.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Thanks everyone for chiming in, there was a few points raised that I had not considered.
1) On the FAANG-tier being permanent, and it's easier to come back vs breaking into the club, I agree but only if I had more experience. Personally I think at least 10-years at FAANG tier is permanent otherwise anything less than that I perceive as that person "could not make it and washed out". Since I have waaay less than 10-years at FAANG tier, while I agree with this point, this will apply later in life not now.
2) On chasing money because ultimately that's what I want... that's where I'm still split. I think being in this precarious situation where I recently broke into FAANG, definitely do not have the right pedigree (did not take CS course, did not grad from top school, did not get first job in FAANG, limited FAANG history), I really don't want to lose that. If this was later in life say 10 years from now... perhaps I would think differently.
3) On using FAANG to "cash out". I agree... but I guess I never expected to cash out this early on. My stretch goal was always to cash out by downgrading tiers to a Director-level L8 position that earns $1mil/yr, do a 4 year tour and then properly retire *or* rest-and-vest at >$500k/yr in FAANG until age 50-55 for whenever age discrimination sets in. Somehow, I'm convinced that downgrading tiers so early in my career will definitely prevent that from happening.
In all likelihood, I think I will reject the L6 offer, and in the worst case scenario I don't get any decent offers from FAANG later... I can always try again in 2023. At the very least I would have the prestige, and maybe not as much money as I would like to have... I think I can live with that, although I would be upset.
1) On the FAANG-tier being permanent, and it's easier to come back vs breaking into the club, I agree but only if I had more experience. Personally I think at least 10-years at FAANG tier is permanent otherwise anything less than that I perceive as that person "could not make it and washed out". Since I have waaay less than 10-years at FAANG tier, while I agree with this point, this will apply later in life not now.
2) On chasing money because ultimately that's what I want... that's where I'm still split. I think being in this precarious situation where I recently broke into FAANG, definitely do not have the right pedigree (did not take CS course, did not grad from top school, did not get first job in FAANG, limited FAANG history), I really don't want to lose that. If this was later in life say 10 years from now... perhaps I would think differently.
3) On using FAANG to "cash out". I agree... but I guess I never expected to cash out this early on. My stretch goal was always to cash out by downgrading tiers to a Director-level L8 position that earns $1mil/yr, do a 4 year tour and then properly retire *or* rest-and-vest at >$500k/yr in FAANG until age 50-55 for whenever age discrimination sets in. Somehow, I'm convinced that downgrading tiers so early in my career will definitely prevent that from happening.
In all likelihood, I think I will reject the L6 offer, and in the worst case scenario I don't get any decent offers from FAANG later... I can always try again in 2023. At the very least I would have the prestige, and maybe not as much money as I would like to have... I think I can live with that, although I would be upset.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
To be very blunt:
1) I think you’re very wrong about your “10 years in FANG” requirement. I think 3 at one company is sufficient to show recruiters you’re doing well, and if you work at multiple FANG-like companies at L5, you’re obviously above the bar for recruiters
2) you need to get over your imposter syndrome
3) you’re giving up a 35% raise for a hypothetical future inbound recruiter perception difference. That’s sounds kind of misguided
4) the L6 will teach you new and valuable skills. I think you should take it
1) I think you’re very wrong about your “10 years in FANG” requirement. I think 3 at one company is sufficient to show recruiters you’re doing well, and if you work at multiple FANG-like companies at L5, you’re obviously above the bar for recruiters
2) you need to get over your imposter syndrome
3) you’re giving up a 35% raise for a hypothetical future inbound recruiter perception difference. That’s sounds kind of misguided
4) the L6 will teach you new and valuable skills. I think you should take it
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I will think about it, but I definitely disagree at (2). I have no imposter syndrome... in fact when I joined my current employer I was appalled how low the talent pool is, I expected everyone to be better than me, but I'm above average.muffins14 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:32 pm To be very blunt:
1) I think you’re very wrong about your “10 years in FANG” requirement. I think 3 at one company is sufficient to show recruiters you’re doing well, and if you work at multiple FANG-like companies at L5, you’re obviously above the bar for recruiters
2) you need to get over your imposter syndrome
3) you’re giving up a 35% raise for a hypothetical future inbound recruiter perception difference. That’s sounds kind of misguided
4) the L6 will teach you new and valuable skills. I think you should take it
What I do have is difficulty clearing the interviews, which has 0 correlation with work performance. I have been practicing intensely in the last 8mths in interview prep and I still *cannot* clear some interview rounds. Besides prep, the only way to make interviews easier is to have strong perception that comes from brand name. When you're up against professional competitive coding athletes who probably been coding puzzles since they were a KID... I am at a severe disadvantage. I'm only at the point where "I have a chance", and I'm still planning to work on this till month 12 until I have the final showdown. It will be the biggest attempted career move in my life and the absolute hardest thing I will be trying in my entire 30+ YEARS of existence.
To put things in comparison, I have a PhD and was one of the top students in my professor's lab by publication count and I worked under a juggernaut with h-index 100+, so I'm not kidding when I say I've worked with the best. And I can flat out tell you getting a job at FAANG is order of magnitude harder than getting a PhD. In short, getting into a top tier FAANG is nothing short of the pinnacle of career achievement and I don't want to give up because I haven't even tried!
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
I'm just bookmarking this for you. I hope that one day you get into a "top tier" FAMANG, and then look back at this for re-evaluation a few years after.sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:45 pm To put things in comparison, I have a PhD and was one of the top students in my professor's lab by publication count and I worked under a juggernaut with h-index 100+, so I'm not kidding when I say I've worked with the best. And I can flat out tell you getting a job at FAANG is order of magnitude harder than getting a PhD. In short, getting into a top tier FAANG is nothing short of the pinnacle of career achievement and I don't want to give up because I haven't even tried!
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
This is definitely not true. I’d say 3-5 years is plenty to establish you could cut it at a FAANG, especially if you can demonstrate you made an impact in high visibility areas.sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:22 pm Thanks everyone for chiming in, there was a few points raised that I had not considered.
1) On the FAANG-tier being permanent, and it's easier to come back vs breaking into the club, I agree but only if I had more experience. Personally I think at least 10-years at FAANG tier is permanent otherwise anything less than that I perceive as that person "could not make it and washed out". Since I have waaay less than 10-years at FAANG tier, while I agree with this point, this will apply later in life not now.
The thing that is interesting to me is that you’re not talking at all about how you’re feeling about the work you’re doing currently or the work you’d be doing at the “lower tier” company. If you are proud of the work you’re doing at the FAANG, then your FAANG bona fides are gonna be set, whether you stay or go. Similarly, if the new job offers clear challenges and growth and you believe in the company, you should feel absolutely fine making that move and let your career path speak for itself.
You always have to play the game to some extent, but at this stage in your career, I’d say it’s more about finding great projects to work on.
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
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This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
my sense is that you’re forgetting about the power of the network you’ve built (or should have built) at your faang. here’s a story that aligns with your concern around prestige and money:
i was senior tech director at oracle for about ten years, often during client visits our client would send a limo to the airport, whisk me to their corp offices where i’d meet with cxo-level resources. i left oracle to work at a startup, my first client meeting was with a mid-level architect who kept me waiting outside his office for 6 hours only to cancel the meeting. talk about a plunge in prestige!
but, fast forward ten years and two equity events later and i hit my number*2.5, something i’d never have done at oracle. and those people i worked with at oracle? well, an awful lot of them are now at aws, so i was offered an L7 but decided i didnt want the stress, but have taken on pt consulting assignments from time to time.
moral of the story: i say go for the $ but make sure your faang network is strong.
luck,
i was senior tech director at oracle for about ten years, often during client visits our client would send a limo to the airport, whisk me to their corp offices where i’d meet with cxo-level resources. i left oracle to work at a startup, my first client meeting was with a mid-level architect who kept me waiting outside his office for 6 hours only to cancel the meeting. talk about a plunge in prestige!
but, fast forward ten years and two equity events later and i hit my number*2.5, something i’d never have done at oracle. and those people i worked with at oracle? well, an awful lot of them are now at aws, so i was offered an L7 but decided i didnt want the stress, but have taken on pt consulting assignments from time to time.
moral of the story: i say go for the $ but make sure your faang network is strong.
luck,
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Re: Career Move: Money or Prestige (Company Reputation/Brand)?
Your planning to spend 12+ months grinding leetcode problems, to what end? The best career opportunities will most likely come from your network, people who are familiar with your work and can speak to that.sents13 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:45 pmI will think about it, but I definitely disagree at (2). I have no imposter syndrome... in fact when I joined my current employer I was appalled how low the talent pool is, I expected everyone to be better than me, but I'm above average.muffins14 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:32 pm To be very blunt:
1) I think you’re very wrong about your “10 years in FANG” requirement. I think 3 at one company is sufficient to show recruiters you’re doing well, and if you work at multiple FANG-like companies at L5, you’re obviously above the bar for recruiters
2) you need to get over your imposter syndrome
3) you’re giving up a 35% raise for a hypothetical future inbound recruiter perception difference. That’s sounds kind of misguided
4) the L6 will teach you new and valuable skills. I think you should take it
What I do have is difficulty clearing the interviews, which has 0 correlation with work performance. I have been practicing intensely in the last 8mths in interview prep and I still *cannot* clear some interview rounds. Besides prep, the only way to make interviews easier is to have strong perception that comes from brand name. When you're up against professional competitive coding athletes who probably been coding puzzles since they were a KID... I am at a severe disadvantage. I'm only at the point where "I have a chance", and I'm still planning to work on this till month 12 until I have the final showdown. It will be the biggest attempted career move in my life and the absolute hardest thing I will be trying in my entire 30+ YEARS of existence.
To put things in comparison, I have a PhD and was one of the top students in my professor's lab by publication count and I worked under a juggernaut with h-index 100+, so I'm not kidding when I say I've worked with the best. And I can flat out tell you getting a job at FAANG is order of magnitude harder than getting a PhD. In short, getting into a top tier FAANG is nothing short of the pinnacle of career achievement and I don't want to give up because I haven't even tried!
Why do you think your current company is ranked higher than this new employer? Ranked by who, and based on what? Look at the list someone shared in this thread about which companies were Tier-1/Tier-2/Tier-3, I would certainly swap a few of those around if someone was asking me . And if you had a more impactful role at a "lower-tier" company, wouldn't that be more "prestigious" than being a peon at a higher-tier company?
Why not spend that same effort creating an open source project, or contribute to one, perhaps in an area where your PhD gives you an uncommon insight to a specific problem. I think most technical folks would assign much more prestige to someone who made an impact in the opensource community vs grinding interview problems, and you might find the work more meaningful and interesting.
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