How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

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CobraKai
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How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

A company five minutes away from home is offering me a job for 6K less than what I am currently making.

I have been with my current position for close to 15 years. Current job is 45 minutes/45 miles away. I've estimated my transportation costs (gas, tolls, vehicle wear & tear, etc) to be approximately 6K which would equate to 9K or so of pre-tax salary so a net gain of 3K.

--------
Pros
--------

I would gain close to 8 hours of time per week

There would also be no on-call responsibilities.

It is a more specialized position - database administration with some software development involved. I am currently doing both functions along with a lot of level one and two support in my current role so I'm spread pretty thin.

Comparable benefits package to current company

----------
Cons
----------
There is no shortage of Glassdoor and Indeed reviews that refer to "bad management". The overall Glassdoor rating is low (just above 2).

The technology stack I would be working with is older. I'd be exchanging MS SQL for DB2, for example.

This would be a small company (less than 150 employees). I currently work for a large corporation. It may be just me but I've had better experiences working in large companies than the small companies I've worked in.

I would be starting over in a new company and stability is unknown. Current job is relatively stable and I would lose any seniority I have built up.

----------------


The elimination of the commute is tempting but there are some downsides. Current boss and co-workers are decent. Not sure about the other place. The manager at the other place seems decent too but it's difficult to tell for sure.

Should I stay or should I go?
Last edited by CobraKai on Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
Afty
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Afty »

Have you tried to negotiate the offer yet? You have a pretty good reason to ask for more if they’re coming in below your current salary.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Afty wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:54 pm Have you tried to negotiate the offer yet? You have a pretty good reason to ask for more if they’re coming in below your current salary.
I have not. He did ask me what my range is but I told him it depends on the total compensation package and I would need more info. He gave me his number and we agreed it is a starting point. He said there is some wiggle room but I am not yet sure how much.

HR is supposed to send me some info with all of the details of their compensation package.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by hi_there »

Unless you really need a couple of thousands of dollars for some reason, the compensation difference seems quite negligible. Your decision should depend on your significant time savings vs. the risk of not fitting in with the culture of the new workplace. I would encourage you to talk to more employees of the second company to help understand what it might be like to work there. Also, consider if your old company might rehire you if you need to return for whatever reason, as this would be a significant risk mitigating factor.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by boogiehead »

Other things I would consider is at what stage of your career are you at? Is there a title promotion, opportunity to learn new technology, additional training/certification, future opportunity for promotion? Are you at a stage where you would rather coast and prioritize friends and family? What’s the trajectory of the current company vs. the new company?

Two of the most important things i’ve learned in my career is your boss+co-workers make or break the job for the most part and the Company’s trajectory is really important in terms of your career as growth companies will give you the best opportunity for career growth. The money will follow as long as you get the first two right.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 am Unless you really need a couple of thousands of dollars for some reason, the compensation difference seems quite negligible.
The couple thousand dollars is negligible. The additional time is more important to me.
hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 amYour decision should depend on your significant time savings vs. the risk of not fitting in with the culture of the new workplace.
You nailed it.
hi_there wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 amI would encourage you to talk to more employees of the second company to help understand what it might be like to work there. Also, consider if your old company might rehire you if you need to return for whatever reason, as this would be a significant risk mitigating factor.
I don't know anyone that works in the company. Should I request a tour? Of course nobody is going to say anything derogitory with management around. My current company would likely re-hire me as long as I leave on good terms, although I could lose "perks" I have earned over time. The schedules at the two companies would be different enough to where I could work part-time at the second company for a time. Would it be unreasonable to ask to work part-time there for a week or two in order to test my culture fit?
Last edited by CobraKai on Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

boogiehead wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:05 am Other things I would consider is at what stage of your career are you at? Is there a title promotion, opportunity to learn new technology, additional training/certification, future opportunity for promotion? Are you at a stage where you would rather coast and prioritize friends and family? What’s the trajectory of the current company vs. the new company?
Mid-career
I have been coasting for quite some time as I am not interested in going into management. If anything, I'd like to specialize a bit more. With that being said, this position may be too specialized as the technology stack at the second company is not as varied as my current employer.

As for trajectory, both companies have been around for many decades. The current company is stable although there's not a whole lot of room for growth unless I'm willing to move out of state or go into management. The second company is a small company so not much room to grow there.
boogiehead wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:05 amTwo of the most important things i’ve learned in my career is your boss+co-workers make or break the job for the most part and the Company’s trajectory is really important in terms of your career as growth companies will give you the best opportunity for career growth. The money will follow as long as you get the first two right.
I've had some bad bosses and co-workers which makes me appreciate my current colleagues more, although that can change.

This job vacancy would be replacing the second person to recently leave their small IT group. Makes me think perhaps there could be reasons other than the ex-employee "found a better opportunity".
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JoeRetire »

CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:43 pm A company five minutes away from home is offering me a job for 6K less than what I am currently making.

Should I stay or should I go?
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by ScubaHogg »

Not endorsing, but here is one interesting take on the cost of commuting.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10 ... commuting/
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by galawdawg »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:22 am
boogiehead wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:05 am Other things I would consider is at what stage of your career are you at? Is there a title promotion, opportunity to learn new technology, additional training/certification, future opportunity for promotion? Are you at a stage where you would rather coast and prioritize friends and family? What’s the trajectory of the current company vs. the new company?
Mid-career
I have been coasting for quite some time as I am not interested in going into management. If anything, I'd like to specialize a bit more. With that being said, this position may be too specialized as the technology stack at the second company is not as varied as my current employer.

As for trajectory, both companies have been around for many decades. The current company is stable although there's not a whole lot of room for growth unless I'm willing to move out of state or go into management. The second company is a small company so not much room to grow there.
boogiehead wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:05 amTwo of the most important things i’ve learned in my career is your boss+co-workers make or break the job for the most part and the Company’s trajectory is really important in terms of your career as growth companies will give you the best opportunity for career growth. The money will follow as long as you get the first two right.
I've had some bad bosses and co-workers which makes me appreciate my current colleagues more, although that can change.

This job vacancy would be replacing the second person to recently leave their small IT group. Makes me think perhaps there could be reasons other than the ex-employee "found a better opportunity".
It doesn't sound like this is a "how much of a pay-cut is reasonable for a shorter commute" question. You've already run the numbers and the finances favor the shorter commute even with the lower salary.

It appears to me that the issue isn't financial but whether you really want to work for this new employer. Two things that I would assess/attempt, if possible:
  • You mention Glassdoor and Indeed reviews for the new company. How do those compare with reviews for your current employer?
  • Can you use LinkedIn or similar to locate and reach out to one or both of the recent former-employees who worked in the IT group? If so, you may wish to contact them and see if they will provide some honest feedback about their experiences with that company.
As far as taking the new job on a part-time basis while keeping your current position, I think that would be a great idea if you are on the fence. Give it a trial run, keep your eyes wide-open and judge for yourself the culture of, and work environment at, the new employer and whether you would be a "good fit".

Good luck!
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by nisiprius »

Addressing only the "commute" question, most of my working life I experienced commutes of 1 to 1½ hours. About half train-and-walk, half driving. The drives had a "long tail" of not-so-rare 2-hour and winter-snow 3 and sometimes 4 hours.

For about two years I had a 25-30 minute drive and I can tell you it was life-changing. I couldn't quite eat lunch at home, but the ability to get home-and-back occasionally when needed and have it be an acceptable work absence was wonderful.

Conversely, not being able to get home quickly when needed--as in getting a call saying "the contractions have started"--is a constant source of mild anxiety.

I would say that of all the things I might do differently if I had it to do over again, opting for a significantly shorter commute would be high on the list. I wasn't fully aware of how much it took out of me until I experienced the shorter commute. A commute requires mental energy. You aren't relaxing, no matter how good the radio program (or podcast) is. Not even if the commute is reasonably smooth. It comes out of the "budget" that might otherwise to go to hobbies, avocations, "time with family," etc.

Of course nothing justifies a job that you hate.

As for "older technology," etc. that is very much a personal values question just how much ambition you really have and how important it is to try to optimize your career trajectory.
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ClevrChico
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by ClevrChico »

I would tolerate a lot of bad management for no commute and no on call. (Although, a Glassdoor rating that low is a gigantic red flag.)
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Yarlonkol12 »

Why limit your search to jobs in your local area?

Recruiters have been falling over themselves for over a decade now trying to find anyone and everyone (with US work authorization or citizenship) for tech jobs, many of which these days are full time remote, you might find a new gig with all of the above:

- Something your more excitied about
- WFH with no commute or travel expectations
- Significantly higher pay than both opportunites your currently evaluating
- Something with better work-life balance and flexibility then your current job
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happyisland
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by happyisland »

Regardless of what you end up doing, in my opinion you should do whatever you can (within reason) to get rid of that 45 minute commute.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by runninginvestor »

A different take, you mentioned the new co having an older system. Any interest in both parties (you and new co) in using your current knowledge to update their system if you switch? Smaller companies / companies that have flat structures are kind of nice because if you are able and have the knowledge, you can become your own manager on new projects that are beneficial to the company.

I also ask because that could help your career trajectory there or in the future if you ever wanted to retire and provide consulting. Setting up/maintaining/retrofitting/replacing aspects company systems will probably always be in demand.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by NYCaviator »

I think a $6k pay cut is well worth saving 8 hours a week of commute time (not being on call seems like a huge plus too!). Imagine what you could do with that extra 8 hours a week! You may also be able to negotiate a higher base pay to help offset some of the difference as well, especially if you have specialized knowledge that this company needs.

The only two concerns would be (1) the poor online reviews, and (2) whether this old technology will be on the way out in the near term, putting your job at risk.

A lot of companies have bad online reviews, and it seems like mainly disgruntled former employees leave reviews, so I would take them with a grain of salt. Also, if this isn't a tech company and you are working in IT department, you may be insulated from the poor management. Is there someone you know that works there you could talk to? Maybe look for someone on LinkedIn.

In terms of the software, is your knowledge such that if they got rid of the old software and upgraded, your position would still be needed? You just want to make sure you aren't getting into a position that will be eliminated in a couple of years.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Find one of the former employees of the closer company and offer to buy them a drink/lunch/dinner. Get first hand stories. I worked for a smaller company and glass door nailed it. The CEO was a respected engineer/college professor, the COO was a complete jerk who micro managed everyone and made everyone's life difficult. They were cheap with raises (they performed the first review of employees in 10 years while I was there....I got zero). Chief engineer was a working engineer and well respected. Manager and director level employees were CEO's sister, nieces, son and mostly incompetent. Glass door pointed at all of this. Don't discount reviews thinking it was disgruntle employees.

In going to that smaller company, I went from an hour commute to 35 minutes. I went there for other reasons and for me, it worked out and I found a much, much better company 4 years later with a 10 minute commute, then work from home. Perhaps look around more close to home. Are there other options?
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sureshoe »

CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:43 pm A company five minutes away from home is offering me a job for 6K less than what I am currently making.

I have been with my current position for close to 15 years. Current job is 45 minutes/45 miles away. I've estimated my transportation costs (gas, tolls, vehicle wear & tear, etc) to be approximately 6K which would equate to 9K or so of pre-tax salary so a net gain of 3K.

I would gain close to 8 hours of time per week
There is limited time in life. If you haven't had a job without a commute, you will be stunned at how much different and happier you are.

From a dollars perspective: Let's say your commute expense on the car is just $0.2666 (IRS is much higher).
45*$0.2666 = $13 each way, $26/day. $130/week. Let's assume you do that 48 weeks of the year: $6240 in commuting expenses alone saved.

Financially, in bottom line dollars, it's a wash.

Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back.

So yeah - unless one job sucks and they're mostly equal, drop the commute. Also, I think it's fair to say to the new job, "I want this job really bad, get me $6k more/year and I'm here".

Your problem right now is you're going through Loss Aversion. You're gaining lots of stuff, more than you're losing, but you don't want to lose that one thing. We hate losing more than we like gaining.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

Please explain this to me.

If you are willing to quit your current job that you had worked for 15 years to a new job, why can't you work out a deal with your current employer to commute much less? Or, zero commute? What have you got to lose?

Once upon a time, I have to move to Asia due to family issue. I go to my US employer that either I telecommute from Asia or I have to quit my job. They let me telecommute from Asia.

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Jags4186
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Jags4186 »

Negotiate the new employment offer. Then leverage that offer for a WFH arrangement and a raise with current employer.

Boom problems solved.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by LeslieSmiley »

Commute time though is a valid factor in determining the worthiness of a job, it becomes irrelevant if such job is not desirable in other aspects.

The most important factor in my opinion is the quality of the job in terms of the nature of the responsibilities, the team that you will be working with, the working environment, the prospect of future growth and etc. If those factors don’t check out, you will just be having a lousy job with an amazing commute.

You might want to do a bit more research on the company to get a fully account on what you are considering.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by stoptothink »

happyisland wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:10 am Regardless of what you end up doing, in my opinion you should do whatever you can (within reason) to get rid of that 45 minute commute.
This. After commuting 2+hrs/day for most of my life, I paid a premium and made some compromises with what we wanted in a home to be close enough to walk to work (wife is ~3 mile commute). Totally life-changing; the best investment in QOL outside of my marriage.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by db79 »

Took a 8% cut in comp to dramatically reduce my commuting time. Within 2 years my comp with my new employer exceeded my old which had been stagnant for several years and continues to rise.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Mako »

I will agree with those that say going from a 45+ minute commute to less than 5 min is life changing.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by sailaway »

Mako wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:50 am I will agree with those that say going from a 45+ minute commute to less than 5 min is life changing.
We agreed to a 50% increase in expenses to make it happen for DH just over three years ago.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by randomguy »

Mako wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:50 am I will agree with those that say going from a 45+ minute commute to less than 5 min is life changing.
If it was only the commute, this would be a no brainer. All that other stuff though would give me pause. If I was happy with the job otherwise and the job can be done remotely, I would try and get a 2-3 days work from home role from the current job.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

Where are you in your career, future income needs (kids? college? something else?), and your retirement plans?
Where does this job get you in 5 or 10 years? As in what is it a stepping stone to?

It's not always about income and commute. Sometimes it's about how the job fits into the next 10 or 15 or 20 years of your life.
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Watty
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Watty »

There is a third option that you did not mention which would be to move closer to your current job. With a commute like that I would have done that years ago.

A fourth option would be to look to a different job using your current skills that you could be excited about even if you had to move somewhere else in the country for it.
CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:43 pm Current job is 45 minutes/45 miles away.
.....
I would gain close to 8 hours of time per week
That is about 20k miles a year. In addition to the cost and time having a long commute also adds to the risk that you will be hurt or killed in a car accident. It is hard to calculate but that is a non-trivial risk.
CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:43 pm ..... a job for 6K less than what I am currently making.
I would suspect that in your current position you are at the top of your pay grade and have little chance of getting a promotion or a raise that is more than inflation. A big question would be what your advancement potential would be at the new job.
CobraKai wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:43 pm This would be a small company (less than 150 employees)....
....
The technology stack I would be working with is older. I'd be exchanging MS SQL for DB2, for example.
One way to look at that is that once you come up to speed on the different skills then you would be qualified in both of them which may make you more valuable when you are looking for your next job if you have not been away from your old skill for too long.

I am retired now and but before I retired I was a software developer at a company that used the IBM iSeries which uses DB2 (AKA IBM i, IBM System i, AS/400, IBM Power System, System 38, or whatever they are calling it these days). That job market has been shrinking for literally decades and even though it is a great system IBM decided to go in a different direction in the 1990s. A lot of companies that size still have them and they work and would be expensive to replace so they keep using them. They are sort of like the commercial for the energizer bunny that keeps going and going.

If the company is using an iSeries they will likely replace it sooner or later which could be why they are looking at hiring someone with different skills so that you can help with the eventual conversion.

Anyway if the job is using the iSeries(by whatever name) and you get pigeonholed in that job market then you may find that you will have a very difficult time finding some other iSeries job if you ever need to. If that is the situation then some of the people who have left that IT department may have left because they got a job opportunity on some other platform that was better for their career and that could explain some of the turnover.

A lot of people with iSeries skills are reaching retirement age so one thing to check on is that some of the people who left that company may have retired which could also explain some of the turnover. The large company that I worked at had several dozen people working on the iSeries and probably 80% of them were in their 50s or older.
Last edited by Watty on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
59Gibson
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by 59Gibson »

Avoiding a long commute is worth way more than 6kyr IMO.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by JoeRetire »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:49 am There is limited time in life. If you haven't had a job without a commute, you will be stunned at how much different and happier you are.
I've had jobs with 1 hour commute and jobs with 10 minute commute. The best job I ever had was a 45 minute commute. The worst job I ever had was the 10 minute commute.
Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back.
Kinda silly to put a price on your commute time, unless you can find some way to earn $40 during that hour in the morning when you aren't commuting. Most likely that time will be spent sleeping later, or reading more of the morning paper - neither of which actually earn you $40.

There are plenty of reasons to place a value on a shorter commute if that's important to you. $40/hour isn't the way.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Normchad »

Never take a pay cut.

Just tell them you can’t accept their offer if it costs you money. And see how they respond. If they say “no”, that’s not a place you want to be.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by rob »

Org culture & fit is a crap shoot.... The 6K is nothing and can easily go away in a neg to a new company. As for tech been older... dig a bit deeper and you will see those are mostly the same with some advantages each side.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by il0kin »

Keep looking.. small market share DBMS is a step backwards. MS SQL is the industry default but things are moving slowly towards the hosted solutions like Snowflake, Azure etc. Going backwards on tech plus bad reviews are two red flags to me. It’d be less scary if you were going to a city/county government using old tech where you knew you could stay until retirement but you’re making yourself less marketable.

Lots of these jobs are going full remote. Again, keep looking!

Have you considered looking at BI development work? Pretty good pay and a little more exciting than DBA work IMO.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by quantAndHold »

The federal mileage reimbursement rate is currently $0.56/mile. That’s a good proxy for how much it costs you to drive to work. I was home sick and bored one day, and calculated how much it actually cost per mile for me to drive to work over a 10 year period, and the result was surprisingly close to what the federal mileage rate was over those years. The cost of the car was about half of it, and the ongoing expenses (gas, maintenance, insurance) was the other half. Since you’re driving approximately 22k miles per year to and from work, that’s $12k/year in car expenses alone.

Then there’s the hour plus you’ll get back every workday.

All things are not equal between jobs, and jobs are about a lot more than just the money aspect. But if all things really are equal between here two jobs, you come out pretty far ahead taking the closer job.
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CobraKai
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:55 am It doesn't sound like this is a "how much of a pay-cut is reasonable for a shorter commute" question. You've already run the numbers and the finances favor the shorter commute even with the lower salary.

It appears to me that the issue isn't financial but whether you really want to work for this new employer. Two things that I would assess/attempt, if possible:
  • You mention Glassdoor and Indeed reviews for the new company. How do those compare with reviews for your current employer?
Current employer is just over 1.5 points higher with many more reviews, with it being a much larger company with many different locations.
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:55 am
  • Can you use LinkedIn or similar to locate and reach out to one or both of the recent former-employees who worked in the IT group? If so, you may wish to contact them and see if they will provide some honest feedback about their experiences with that company.
I am not on LinkedIn. Can one do a search for someone who worked in a particular company? I'm not sure how I would be able to find the former employees otherwise since I do not know anyone that works in the company.
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:55 amAs far as taking the new job on a part-time basis while keeping your current position, I think that would be a great idea if you are on the fence. Give it a trial run, keep your eyes wide-open and judge for yourself the culture of, and work environment at, the new employer and whether you would be a "good fit".

Good luck!
With it being a smaller company, perhaps they might be open to that idea. Couldn't hurt to ask I guess.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:41 am Addressing only the "commute" question, most of my working life I experienced commutes of 1 to 1½ hours. About half train-and-walk, half driving. The drives had a "long tail" of not-so-rare 2-hour and winter-snow 3 and sometimes 4 hours.
Winter snow can definitely make commuting a real pain. It will sometimes double my commute time in the winter.
nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:41 amFor about two years I had a 25-30 minute drive and I can tell you it was life-changing. I couldn't quite eat lunch at home, but the ability to get home-and-back occasionally when needed and have it be an acceptable work absence was wonderful.

Conversely, not being able to get home quickly when needed--as in getting a call saying "the contractions have started"--is a constant source of mild anxiety.

I would say that of all the things I might do differently if I had it to do over again, opting for a significantly shorter commute would be high on the list. I wasn't fully aware of how much it took out of me until I experienced the shorter commute. A commute requires mental energy. You aren't relaxing, no matter how good the radio program (or podcast) is. Not even if the commute is reasonably smooth. It comes out of the "budget" that might otherwise to go to hobbies, avocations, "time with family," etc.
Good points. I've been doing this commute so long that I'm used to it, even though I'm not happy with it. It would likely make my head spin to sit down and figure out how many hours and how much money I have spent commuting over the years.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by galawdawg »

CobraKai wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:12 am
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:55 am
  • Can you use LinkedIn or similar to locate and reach out to one or both of the recent former-employees who worked in the IT group? If so, you may wish to contact them and see if they will provide some honest feedback about their experiences with that company.
I am not on LinkedIn. Can one do a search for someone who worked in a particular company? I'm not sure how I would be able to find the former employees otherwise since I do not know anyone that works in the company.
I am also not on LinkedIn but it appears that there is an ability to search for people by company or organization, including past employees.

https://www.dummies.com/social-media/li ... y-company/
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

ClevrChico wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:52 am I would tolerate a lot of bad management for no commute and no on call. (Although, a Glassdoor rating that low is a gigantic red flag.)
Agreed on all counts. Every tech job I've had has had on call and involved at least a 30 minute commute.

There always seems to be some kind of a catch lol.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Yarlonkol12 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:55 am Why limit your search to jobs in your local area?

Recruiters have been falling over themselves for over a decade now trying to find anyone and everyone (with US work authorization or citizenship) for tech jobs, many of which these days are full time remote, you might find a new gig with all of the above:

- Something your more excitied about
- WFH with no commute or travel expectations
- Significantly higher pay than both opportunites your currently evaluating
- Something with better work-life balance and flexibility then your current job
I guess it wouldn't hurt to look around but it seems like everyone wants such a job, which drastically increases the competition.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Keenobserver »

As someone who switched to a job much closer to home, I would take a larger pay cut and still say its worth it. 6K pre tax is not as much as you might think. Time is priceless. not to mention the lack of rush/ anxiety,/ traffic/ weather. No brainer.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

happyisland wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:10 am Regardless of what you end up doing, in my opinion you should do whatever you can (within reason) to get rid of that 45 minute commute.
It's been something on the back of my mind for awhile. Either move closer to work, work closer to home, or find a new job and move closer.

I like where I live and am comfortable (perhaps too comfortable) where I work. It's difficult to walk away from stability when they first part of my career was anything but stable. I could move closer to work but would be moving to both a more expensive area that I would not enjoy living in.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

runninginvestor wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:12 am A different take, you mentioned the new co having an older system. Any interest in both parties (you and new co) in using your current knowledge to update their system if you switch? Smaller companies / companies that have flat structures are kind of nice because if you are able and have the knowledge, you can become your own manager on new projects that are beneficial to the company.
That is a good question. That is similar to what I've done with my current employer. Of course this could lead to a situation where they are dependent on one person and many companies/managers understandably want to avoid that.
runninginvestor wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:12 amI also ask because that could help your career trajectory there or in the future if you ever wanted to retire and provide consulting. Setting up/maintaining/retrofitting/replacing aspects company systems will probably always be in demand.
That is another reason I have been thinking about leaving, to make more contacts for this type of situation.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

NYCaviator wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:21 am I think a $6k pay cut is well worth saving 8 hours a week of commute time (not being on call seems like a huge plus too!). Imagine what you could do with that extra 8 hours a week! You may also be able to negotiate a higher base pay to help offset some of the difference as well, especially if you have specialized knowledge that this company needs.

The only two concerns would be (1) the poor online reviews, and (2) whether this old technology will be on the way out in the near term, putting your job at risk.
He did say something about this being more of a DBA position with software development being more involved down the line, so he could be open to developing new systems to replace old technology.
NYCaviator wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:21 amA lot of companies have bad online reviews, and it seems like mainly disgruntled former employees leave reviews, so I would take them with a grain of salt. Also, if this isn't a tech company and you are working in IT department, you may be insulated from the poor management. Is there someone you know that works there you could talk to? Maybe look for someone on LinkedIn.
What I did notice is that most of the reviews were from Marketing and Sales people as well as middle management. Apparently they had some turmoil, management changes, etc. Perhaps they are coming from a handful of people. Then again, most of the reviews (mainly from former employees) were negative going back 7-8 years. There were some positive reviews from current employees, at the time they are written. There is quite a bit of negative feedback on the CEO and how he runs the business. One concern would be starting there and then the CEO (who I haven't met) decides he doesn't like me and that would not be a good situation.
NYCaviator wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:21 am In terms of the software, is your knowledge such that if they got rid of the old software and upgraded, your position would still be needed? You just want to make sure you aren't getting into a position that will be eliminated in a couple of years.
Great point!
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by Quirkz »

About working half time: that honestly strikes me as waking many more waves than something as simple as negotiating salary. You're asking two different companies to make a bunch of accommodations which currently neither of them want, to have two half-filled slots that other people have to work around. Many companies don't even have half-time positions, or you won't be eligible for benefits either place working 20 hours apiece. On the other hand "there's some wiggle room" is a classic indication you're open to negotiate, and coming in with your existing salary and requesting a match seems very appropriate.

I'd give up a lot for a shorter commute. For 8 hours per week, man, I'd take that in a second. Sure, culture and job satisfaction are important, but the only way you'll really know is to try. Bad reviews are a clue, but I find what really matters is the people you work with most closely. It'd definitely possible for a place to have one or two bad pockets and be totally fine elsewhere. If you get along with you manager and the 4-6 other people closest to you, that insulates you from a lot, and if one or more of those people is intolerable it may be hard to work, regardless of the company rating. Given your skill set and the likely chance that you could end up back at your current company if things don't work out, it seems relatively low risk.

In your shoes I'd attempt to negotiate for a salary match just on principle, but be tempted to give it a shot for the free time.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:36 am Find one of the former employees of the closer company and offer to buy them a drink/lunch/dinner. Get first hand stories. I worked for a smaller company and glass door nailed it. The CEO was a respected engineer/college professor, the COO was a complete jerk who micro managed everyone and made everyone's life difficult. They were cheap with raises (they performed the first review of employees in 10 years while I was there....I got zero). Chief engineer was a working engineer and well respected. Manager and director level employees were CEO's sister, nieces, son and mostly incompetent. Glass door pointed at all of this. Don't discount reviews thinking it was disgruntle employees.
There were some comments on Glass Door about wage freezes in recent years as well. I would told by the manager that that there are reviews after 60 and 90 days after starting as if to say that this salary he throw out could go up, but that could just be talk.
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:36 am In going to that smaller company, I went from an hour commute to 35 minutes. I went there for other reasons and for me, it worked out and I found a much, much better company 4 years later with a 10 minute commute, then work from home. Perhaps look around more close to home. Are there other options?
There are not too many options. The options that are out there pay even less.

I did see a job in the same industry I work in (20-25 minute commute instead of 45 minute) but it would be a lateral jump and I would guess there would be a significant pay cut (given my years of experience in current position). I'm hesitant to apply there, with it being in the same industry and not knowing who is in the HR or IT department, in case word gets back to my employer.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by galawdawg »

Quirkz wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:32 am About working half time: that honestly strikes me as waking many more waves than something as simple as negotiating salary. You're asking two different companies to make a bunch of accommodations which currently neither of them want, to have two half-filled slots that other people have to work around. Many companies don't even have half-time positions, or you won't be eligible for benefits either place working 20 hours apiece. On the other hand "there's some wiggle room" is a classic indication you're open to negotiate, and coming in with your existing salary and requesting a match seems very appropriate.

I'd give up a lot for a shorter commute. For 8 hours per week, man, I'd take that in a second. Sure, culture and job satisfaction are important, but the only way you'll really know is to try. Bad reviews are a clue, but I find what really matters is the people you work with most closely. It'd definitely possible for a place to have one or two bad pockets and be totally fine elsewhere. If you get along with you manager and the 4-6 other people closest to you, that insulates you from a lot, and if one or more of those people is intolerable it may be hard to work, regardless of the company rating. Given your skill set and the likely chance that you could end up back at your current company if things don't work out, it seems relatively low risk.

In your shoes I'd attempt to negotiate for a salary match just on principle, but be tempted to give it a shot for the free time.
Unless I missed something in OP's posts, trying the new position on a part-time basis requires nothing from his current employer. The schedules are different enough that he could keep his current job "as is" and give the new position a part-time "test drive." But perhaps I misunderstand what OP mentioned about the schedules, hopefully the OP can clarify this...
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:49 am There is limited time in life. If you haven't had a job without a commute, you will be stunned at how much different and happier you are.
Yeah. I've been doing it for so long it's like I've accepted it as a part of life, even though it is a burden.
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:49 amFrom a dollars perspective: Let's say your commute expense on the car is just $0.2666 (IRS is much higher).
45*$0.2666 = $13 each way, $26/day. $130/week. Let's assume you do that 48 weeks of the year: $6240 in commuting expenses alone saved.

Financially, in bottom line dollars, it's a wash.

Let's say your time is worth $40/hour. 8*40 = $320/week. That's $15k in time you're buying back.

So yeah - unless one job sucks and they're mostly equal, drop the commute. Also, I think it's fair to say to the new job, "I want this job really bad, get me $6k more/year and I'm here".
I know it's said never to disclose one's salary, but in this case, that would not apply?
sureshoe wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:49 amYour problem right now is you're going through Loss Aversion. You're gaining lots of stuff, more than you're losing, but you don't want to lose that one thing. We hate losing more than we like gaining.
Right.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:37 am
Quirkz wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:32 am About working half time: that honestly strikes me as waking many more waves than something as simple as negotiating salary. You're asking two different companies to make a bunch of accommodations which currently neither of them want, to have two half-filled slots that other people have to work around. Many companies don't even have half-time positions, or you won't be eligible for benefits either place working 20 hours apiece. On the other hand "there's some wiggle room" is a classic indication you're open to negotiate, and coming in with your existing salary and requesting a match seems very appropriate.

I'd give up a lot for a shorter commute. For 8 hours per week, man, I'd take that in a second. Sure, culture and job satisfaction are important, but the only way you'll really know is to try. Bad reviews are a clue, but I find what really matters is the people you work with most closely. It'd definitely possible for a place to have one or two bad pockets and be totally fine elsewhere. If you get along with you manager and the 4-6 other people closest to you, that insulates you from a lot, and if one or more of those people is intolerable it may be hard to work, regardless of the company rating. Given your skill set and the likely chance that you could end up back at your current company if things don't work out, it seems relatively low risk.

In your shoes I'd attempt to negotiate for a salary match just on principle, but be tempted to give it a shot for the free time.
Unless I missed something in OP's posts, trying the new position on a part-time basis requires nothing from his current employer. The schedules are different enough that he could keep his current job "as is" and give the new position a part-time "test drive." But perhaps I misunderstand what OP mentioned about the schedules, hopefully the OP can clarify this...
That is correct. The new position would be part time. Current position would not be affected, at least until I get burned out lol. I wouldn't do it long term. I am thinking a week or two to feel things out. If either party isn't feeling it, no harm done, we say good luck and move on.

Although I will say that my current employer is short handed and it wouldn't surprise me if they let me work part time for a bit if I were to accept the new position since they would be in a bind. Years ago, there was a similar situation. Someone left the company while the department was short handed. He gave his two weeks notice and worked that full time, then hung around for another month (working a couple shifts per week) while using what was left of his vacation time.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

KlangFool wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:53 am OP,

Please explain this to me.

If you are willing to quit your current job that you had worked for 15 years to a new job, why can't you work out a deal with your current employer to commute much less? Or, zero commute? What have you got to lose?

Once upon a time, I have to move to Asia due to family issue. I go to my US employer that either I telecommute from Asia or I have to quit my job. They let me telecommute from Asia.

KlangFool
Very good question.

They seem resistant to allowing telecommuting, for whatever reason. The department needs to have a presence during main business hours but there is no logical reason IMO why we couldn't telecommute one day a week. Management is not open to it for whatever reason.

There have been initiatives where employees in the department would submit 4x10 schedules or one telecommuting day per week schedules. Management will say they will evaluate it but never follow up.

I could do most of my job duties from home. With my skills and experience, if I were to put in my notice due to the commute, perhaps they would let me work from home one day per week. I couldn't see them allowing me to telecommute any more than that as it just isn't feasible given the size of the department.
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Re: How much of a pay cut is reasonable for a shorter commute?

Post by CobraKai »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:59 am Negotiate the new employment offer. Then leverage that offer for a WFH arrangement and a raise with current employer.

Boom problems solved.
I could possibly leverage this into a raise and promotion since there is a vacancy in a higher position. Of course that would require more of a time commitment on my end and I am trying to improve work-life balance. I would definitely be willing to stay if they would allow me to WFH full time but that won't happen due to reasons in my previous post.
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