How strong are my golden handcuffs

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hoffse
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by hoffse »

I had to chuckle at this dilemma. True first world problem.

You also aren’t talking about 4 months. You have holidays and 3 weeks of vacation in there. That’s nothing.

Stick it out and wait until the first or second week of January to call it once you know everything has vested and hit your account. Use the pay in January to fund all your 2022 tax advantaged accounts and then walk.

You know what I’m doing in 4 months? Having a baby. Will the next 4 months be enjoyable while I wait for this event to occur? Absolutely not. In fact, it’s going to get a lot worse from here. But you know what? I can survive another 4 months of insomnia, heartburn, nausea, hip and back pain, and being repeatedly kicked in the organs. Because at the end of these 4 months, I get a baby, and that’s pretty awesome.

Your situation is rather similar I think. Suck it up, go into the office, and lock one this down.
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3CT_Paddler
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

One consideration in favor of staying... with stocks at an all time high, what happens if we have a 50% correction in the stock market? If you would be comfortable retiring today if the stock market was cut in half then I would retire today, otherwise I would wait it out 3 more months.
mrc
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by mrc »

10 or 20 years from now, when you look back, what difference will either choice make? It sounds like you really don't want to go back to the office (but you are willing to work from home). Management wants everyone back in the office. So it's OK to walk now, or after you can't put off your physical presence any more. How much you "leave on the table" or "suffer if you don't leave" won't matter much after several years. I'm four years out after leaving a bit early, and I can't even remember the amounts any more. It was a big deal then, but not now. Good luck.
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MAKsdad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by MAKsdad »

hoffse wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:43 am I had to chuckle at this dilemma. True first world problem.
No doubt. I'm under no illusion that this is anything but a win / win decision.
Caduceus
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Caduceus »

I think a lot of things are tolerable if they have a time limit. Personally, if I knew that I'd be able to transition to my dream work set up after only four months, in return for a significant increase in my net worth, I would stick it out for 4 months. It will pass really quickly. Before you know it, it will be Thanksgiving, or Christmas, and you won't even know where all the time went.
deltaneutral83
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by deltaneutral83 »

At 44, I would work not only until Jan 1, but Jan 31/Feb 15th and fill up my 401k and then give notice. I'm sure over this thread people have dug in and mentioned "effort" at work and there will be a million opinions on that but if I'm leaving in 5 months with a boatload of PTO to tide me over in between, I'd be allocating time to family in lieu of burning the midnight oil as I think this what' s most important from the OP. I don't get the impression this is a 50-60 hour a week job anyhow, but that is important, if it's a 38-45 hour work week, seems reasonable. If that subsidy cliff come back for ACA, your dividends from you taxable/Roth conversions/part time work or whatever push you over 4x FPL you may get some sticker shock for the corresponding healthcare Premiums/Deduc/OOP max in retirement. Again, at 1.5% SWR, probably nothing to worry about but I'd stick it out.

If I were 64 (with Medicare in my sights), I'd be turning in my notice the day they made me come back and I'd buy everyone lunch on my team including my manager and make my exit. I'm not sacrificing time at 64 that I would at 44 at 1.5% SWR, kids are probably out of the house at 64 as well vs. 44.
DoTheMath
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by DoTheMath »

I haven't read the entire thread, but it sounds like it is an amount in the 100k's range, but that for your savings and planned expenses this doesn't really move the needle.

If so, then I know what I would do: work those few months and donate every cent of it to a homeless shelter, food shelf, animal shelter, or some other smallish nonprofit who does good work that you value. That kind of money is life changing for a small organization and the people it serves. And they could likely leverage it for matching grants, doing a donation match in a fundraising appeal, etc. and make it worth even more.

For me this is an easy call. It's Robin Hood level stuff. "Rob" from the rich and give to the poor. I would have a hard time choosing to *not* do it, to be honest. But I'm not in your shoes and I'm definitely not saying working the extra months is the right call for you and yours.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
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Wricha
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Wricha »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:32 am
Wricha wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:32 pm I would suspect your boss has a pretty good idea that you are leaving.
Curious why you would think this...I actually feel like he'll be very surprised when I leave (whether it's now or early next year).

Lots of people asking about whether I can negotiate a hybrid situation for the next four months. Obviously that would be ideal, but it's a non-starter. I have been having conversations for over a year about hybrid (mainly for my team, but also for me), and there is absolutely no flexibility on that front.

My spouse and I have been talking a lot about this and we're still on the fence.
The reason I say this you have been planning this for two years. People are always watching other people. When someone has it in their mind to leave they act/say things differently and peers/bosses pick up on these cues. Also, you want to stay home when clearly they want you back. You folks are at impasse and someone must blink. I think most people when they reach an impasse start developing options.
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cchrissyy
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by cchrissyy »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:12 pm At 44, I would work not only until Jan 1, but Jan 31/Feb 15th and fill up my 401k and then give notice.
this is worth considering, especially if the new year means you get a fresh set of PTO
tjtv
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by tjtv »

I'm curious to know how much of a one-off event this is for you. I know you stated there are no large vestings in upcoming years that approach a 4% NW increase over the span of 4 months. But just to put things in perspective, what percentage of your net worth did you earn from working the 4 months from Sep 2020 - Jan 2021, or what percentage of your net worth would you expect to earn if you worked the 4 months from Sep 2022 - Jan 2023? You may also want to compare it to what percentage of net worth you earn during a time of year where there isn't a year-end-bonus on the line to see that difference.

If your normal earnings over a similar 4 month timespan in a different year are say 3% of NW, then this event is not much of an outlier and may not be worth basing your decision on. You've had/will-have roughly similar events in the past/future and always choose to continue working, but this time the situation is different and you choose to make a different decision - that's just normal life changing. On the other hand if your normal earnings over a similar 4 month timespan are say 0.5% of NW, then this really is a once in a lifetime opportunity for you and it really may be something worth basing your decision on.
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MAKsdad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by MAKsdad »

tjtv wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:11 pm I'm curious to know how much of a one-off event this is for you. I know you stated there are no large vestings in upcoming years that approach a 4% NW increase over the span of 4 months. But just to put things in perspective, what percentage of your net worth did you earn from working the 4 months from Sep 2020 - Jan 2021, or what percentage of your net worth would you expect to earn if you worked the 4 months from Sep 2022 - Jan 2023? You may also want to compare it to what percentage of net worth you earn during a time of year where there isn't a year-end-bonus on the line to see that difference.

If your normal earnings over a similar 4 month timespan in a different year are say 3% of NW, then this event is not much of an outlier and may not be worth basing your decision on. You've had/will-have roughly similar events in the past/future and always choose to continue working, but this time the situation is different and you choose to make a different decision - that's just normal life changing. On the other hand if your normal earnings over a similar 4 month timespan are say 0.5% of NW, then this really is a once in a lifetime opportunity for you and it really may be something worth basing your decision on.
My bonus and equity vesting are annual events, so technically they are earned over the course of 12 months, not 4. But if I leave before December 31, I get zero for both. So it's a bit of mental accounting to say that the next four months are worth 4% to my net worth. Really I've done 7/12s of the work already and only have 5/12s remaining.

But that being said, the equity that's vesting this year is approx. double the value of what's vesting in '22 and '23, so this truly is "different" compared to what I'll experience a year from now.
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MAKsdad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by MAKsdad »

Wricha wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:52 pm
MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:32 am
Wricha wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:32 pm I would suspect your boss has a pretty good idea that you are leaving.
Curious why you would think this...I actually feel like he'll be very surprised when I leave (whether it's now or early next year).

Lots of people asking about whether I can negotiate a hybrid situation for the next four months. Obviously that would be ideal, but it's a non-starter. I have been having conversations for over a year about hybrid (mainly for my team, but also for me), and there is absolutely no flexibility on that front.

My spouse and I have been talking a lot about this and we're still on the fence.
The reason I say this you have been planning this for two years. People are always watching other people. When someone has it in their mind to leave they act/say things differently and peers/bosses pick up on these cues. Also, you want to stay home when clearly they want you back. You folks are at impasse and someone must blink. I think most people when they reach an impasse start developing options.
I've put forth a formal plan for my team to do remote work every year for the past 8 years. My perspective on it is not new, I just have a much better case now since we've been successful at it for the past 15 months.
tjtv
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by tjtv »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:43 pm
My bonus and equity vesting are annual events, so technically they are earned over the course of 12 months, not 4. But if I leave before December 31, I get zero for both. So it's a bit of mental accounting to say that the next four months are worth 4% to my net worth. Really I've done 7/12s of the work already and only have 5/12s remaining.

But that being said, the equity that's vesting this year is approx. double the value of what's vesting in '22 and '23, so this truly is "different" compared to what I'll experience a year from now.
Assuming that your bonus and equity are a sizable portion of your total compensation, and as you stated both are paid at same time - seems like regardless of WHICH year you resign, it's always going to be best to do it in January. I agree with you that it's mentally difficult to walk away from a big chunk of compensation that you feel that you're already entitled to for having worked the first 7/12 of the year. I'd probably stick it out until January.
Bryan995
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Bryan995 »

You’d be a moron to leave. :) Always only ever leave at the optimal time. This is why most companies have moved to linear, monthly vesting. Plus you’ve already done the work and earned the bonus. Don’t forfeit due to a technicality.

Just stay and coast.

Rest and vest baby! #unassigned
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Wricha
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Wricha »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:44 pm
Wricha wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:52 pm
MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:32 am
Wricha wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:32 pm I would suspect your boss has a pretty good idea that you are leaving.
Curious why you would think this...I actually feel like he'll be very surprised when I leave (whether it's now or early next year).

Lots of people asking about whether I can negotiate a hybrid situation for the next four months. Obviously that would be ideal, but it's a non-starter. I have been having conversations for over a year about hybrid (mainly for my team, but also for me), and there is absolutely no flexibility on that front.

My spouse and I have been talking a lot about this and we're still on the fence.
The reason I say this you have been planning this for two years. People are always watching other people. When someone has it in their mind to leave they act/say things differently and peers/bosses pick up on these cues. Also, you want to stay home when clearly they want you back. You folks are at impasse and someone must blink. I think most people when they reach an impasse start developing options.
I've put forth a formal plan for my team to do remote work every year for the past 8 years. My perspective on it is not new, I just have a much better case now since we've been successful at it for the past 15 months.
I could be 100% wrong and you certainly have more knowledge about the situation then I do. For what it’s worth my experience has taught me there are very few secrets out there.
Fat Tails
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Fat Tails »

One way to look at it is that the 4% increase in net worth is over 2 1/2 years of future living expenses, for only 4 months work. Stay. The 4 months will go by fast.

Cheers :beer
“If you would be wealthy, think of saving as well as getting.” ― Benjamin Franklin
jackholloway
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by jackholloway »

Many of the FAANGs have extended their voluntary WFH into October (Apple and Google to name two), so you may have even less time to wait.

Were I in that position, I would stick it out through the end of the year. If bonus season is in January, and you can get the full 401k match, that would also be in your interest. (It is probably not if that requires another 3-6 months).
pasadena
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by pasadena »

They're as strong as you want them to be. You clearly have enough money that you don't need the additional funds, so it really is a personal choice.

Me? I would probably stick it out to the end of the year - because walking away from so much money in such a short time would be too hard, and 4 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things - especially with 3 weeks of PTO, a bunch of holidays, and when you know you're leaving anyway, which should take a lot of pressure off your shoulders. I'd probably do the minimum. That's assuming next year's handcuffs won't be so strong that I'd ask the same question in December.

Plus, there's a good chance that WFH will be extended in a lot of companies.

But then I'm nowhere near 1.5% WR, so maybe I'd say differently if I were. What does your wife say?
bltn
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by bltn »

It seems like the consensus is to stay for the last four months.
The idea of working a month or so into 2022 to make retirement plan contributions, including a Roth contribution, seems like a good one.
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MAKsdad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by MAKsdad »

jackholloway wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:32 am Many of the FAANGs have extended their voluntary WFH into October (Apple and Google to name two), so you may have even less time to wait.

Were I in that position, I would stick it out through the end of the year. If bonus season is in January, and you can get the full 401k match, that would also be in your interest. (It is probably not if that requires another 3-6 months).
Not a FAANG company, and we're not extending remote work (unless things get far worse). We're back fully starting 9/1, end of story.

Someone else asked what my wife thinks...she wants me to quit because my working from home has been a big help to her. But she wants me to stay because she's the frugal one between the two of us and she also understands how much we'd be passing on.
oilrig
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by oilrig »

I dont care how rich you are, $100k (Im assuming its around this amount) is $100k. Its still a lot of money even to rich people. It can do a lot of good, and can buy a lot of things. Work the 4 months, get the money, then quit. You've worked hard for it, earned it, and its your bonus. I think you would have a lot of regret walking away from that kind of money. Wouldn't you rather have this money than let your mega corp keep it?

Now if we were talking $5-10k then I think this convo would be different. In that case, I think it would make more sense to just quit now.
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luminous
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by luminous »

This has been a fascinating discussion. I have added a column to my main financial spreadsheet to calculate how much of my total net worth I will save that month.
55/15/30 US stock/international stock/bonds. Hope to semi-retire in 2022.
Count of Notre Dame
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Count of Notre Dame »

66x? You've already won the game! Focus on your investment portfolio because a significant bear market could bring you down closer to 25x.
Financologist
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Financologist »

MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am My company has announced a full time return to office beginning September 1. For a variety of reasons, remote work has really suited me and my family's dynamic, and I'm thinking about retiring rather than go back full time into the office. From a retirement standpoint, I am not really concerned about the numbers (my spouse and I are both 44, and we have a projected WR of right around 1.5% right now).

The issue is golden handcuffs. If I walk away at the end of August, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table. I could add another 4% to our current net worth if I worked through the end of the year, due to equity vesting and earning my '21 bonus (I'm reluctant to post the actual $ amount I would be foregoing just because I feel like it would bias the discussion).

Long story short, I don't feel like I need the extra money, but the practical side of me thinks that I would be a moron to pass it up over 4 months of work.

Any useful insights?
Is there someone you love, or would love to help whose life you could change with this money? Is there a cause or organization important to you? Would working with this sort of thing in mind make the work more bearable and meaningful? Otherwise be done..
Financologist
PowderDay9
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by PowderDay9 »

I'm surprised how many people are recommending the OP work 4-5 more months.

OP is at 66X expenses and will be at 69X expenses after working those extra 4 months in the office. Seems pretty immaterial to their financial independence.
runner540
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by runner540 »

PowderDay9 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:55 am I'm surprised how many people are recommending the OP work 4-5 more months.

OP is at 66X expenses and will be at 69X expenses after working those extra 4 months in the office. Seems pretty immaterial to their financial independence.
OP has indicated this is several hundred thousand dollars on the line. Ratios aside, even on this board, that is a lot of money, and a short amount of time. It’s ~3 years of expenses, for 4 months of work under circumstances the OP doesn’t expect to like.
Dave55
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Dave55 »

PowderDay9 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:55 am I'm surprised how many people are recommending the OP work 4-5 more months.

OP is at 66X expenses and will be at 69X expenses after working those extra 4 months in the office. Seems pretty immaterial to their financial independence.
+1 If it does not move the needle, no need to stay.

Dave
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PowderDay9
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by PowderDay9 »

runner540 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:25 am
PowderDay9 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:55 am I'm surprised how many people are recommending the OP work 4-5 more months.

OP is at 66X expenses and will be at 69X expenses after working those extra 4 months in the office. Seems pretty immaterial to their financial independence.
OP has indicated this is several hundred thousand dollars on the line. Ratios aside, even on this board, that is a lot of money, and a short amount of time. It’s ~3 years of expenses, for 4 months of work under circumstances the OP doesn’t expect to like.
How would an executive (or any other very high income person) ever retire then if they are making several hundred thousand each and every 4 months?

Let's say the X is $100k. The OP then has $6.6M and will have $6.9M after 4 more months. I actually think as the X gets higher it makes the additional 4 months even less impactful.
Last edited by PowderDay9 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NoProbLlama
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by NoProbLlama »

MAKsdad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:42 am
jackholloway wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:32 am Many of the FAANGs have extended their voluntary WFH into October (Apple and Google to name two), so you may have even less time to wait.

Were I in that position, I would stick it out through the end of the year. If bonus season is in January, and you can get the full 401k match, that would also be in your interest. (It is probably not if that requires another 3-6 months).
Not a FAANG company, and we're not extending remote work (unless things get far worse). We're back fully starting 9/1, end of story.

Someone else asked what my wife thinks...she wants me to quit because my working from home has been a big help to her. But she wants me to stay because she's the frugal one between the two of us and she also understands how much we'd be passing on.
Is there any option to hire additional help that would ease the burden for your wife over these 4 months? Or any other way to spend a smaller portion of this money to bridge/split the gap?
TheJoelfather
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by TheJoelfather »

MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am Any useful insights?
I expect companies will backpedal their Sept 1 office targets due to the Delta variant. My company also has a Sept 1 target date but it is increasingly unlikely to take effect.
S4C5
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by S4C5 »

MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am My company has announced a full time return to office beginning September 1. For a variety of reasons, remote work has really suited me and my family's dynamic, and I'm thinking about retiring rather than go back full time into the office. From a retirement standpoint, I am not really concerned about the numbers (my spouse and I are both 44, and we have a projected WR of right around 1.5% right now).

The issue is golden handcuffs. If I walk away at the end of August, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table. I could add another 4% to our current net worth if I worked through the end of the year, due to equity vesting and earning my '21 bonus (I'm reluctant to post the actual $ amount I would be foregoing just because I feel like it would bias the discussion).

Long story short, I don't feel like I need the extra money, but the practical side of me thinks that I would be a moron to pass it up over 4 months of work.

Any useful insights?
You are 44. Go back to work. Anybody can do anything for 6 months. At that age the time will fly by. How is this even a question? You have an opportunity to earn a lot of money in a short amount of time. Most people ‘used to’ kill for a chance at that. Plan a vacation of a lifetime afterwards or something to motivate you.

[Coronavirus troll removed by moderator oldcomputerguy]
Pessimist55
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Pessimist55 »

TheJoelfather wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:52 pm
MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am Any useful insights?
I expect companies will backpedal their Sept 1 office targets due to the Delta variant. My company also has a Sept 1 target date but it is increasingly unlikely to take effect.
Mine pushed from sep to 2022. I was very surprised as the CEO is more butt in office the of guy
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

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grkmec
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by grkmec »

MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:44 pm
Wricha wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:52 pm
MAKsdad wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:32 am
Wricha wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:32 pm I would suspect your boss has a pretty good idea that you are leaving.
Curious why you would think this...I actually feel like he'll be very surprised when I leave (whether it's now or early next year).

Lots of people asking about whether I can negotiate a hybrid situation for the next four months. Obviously that would be ideal, but it's a non-starter. I have been having conversations for over a year about hybrid (mainly for my team, but also for me), and there is absolutely no flexibility on that front.

My spouse and I have been talking a lot about this and we're still on the fence.
The reason I say this you have been planning this for two years. People are always watching other people. When someone has it in their mind to leave they act/say things differently and peers/bosses pick up on these cues. Also, you want to stay home when clearly they want you back. You folks are at impasse and someone must blink. I think most people when they reach an impasse start developing options.
I've put forth a formal plan for my team to do remote work every year for the past 8 years. My perspective on it is not new, I just have a much better case now since we've been successful at it for the past 15 months.
Why not ask again and say something like, if remote work is not an option, you may be inclined to explore “career alternatives”. That puts them on notice that you might leave and they might be willing to provide accommodation. Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
dcabler
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by dcabler »

MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am My company has announced a full time return to office beginning September 1. For a variety of reasons, remote work has really suited me and my family's dynamic, and I'm thinking about retiring rather than go back full time into the office. From a retirement standpoint, I am not really concerned about the numbers (my spouse and I are both 44, and we have a projected WR of right around 1.5% right now).

The issue is golden handcuffs. If I walk away at the end of August, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table. I could add another 4% to our current net worth if I worked through the end of the year, due to equity vesting and earning my '21 bonus (I'm reluctant to post the actual $ amount I would be foregoing just because I feel like it would bias the discussion).

Long story short, I don't feel like I need the extra money, but the practical side of me thinks that I would be a moron to pass it up over 4 months of work.

Any useful insights?
I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.

Cheers.
bltn
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by bltn »

MAKsdad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:42 am
jackholloway wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:32 am Many of the FAANGs have extended their voluntary WFH into October (Apple and Google to name two), so you may have even less time to wait.

Were I in that position, I would stick it out through the end of the year. If bonus season is in January, and you can get the full 401k match, that would also be in your interest. (It is probably not if that requires another 3-6 months).
Not a FAANG company, and we're not extending remote work (unless things get far worse). We're back fully starting 9/1, end of story.

Someone else asked what my wife thinks...she wants me to quit because my working from home has been a big help to her. But she wants me to stay because she's the frugal one between the two of us and she also understands how much we'd be passing on.
If your wife is the frugal one, she ll be willing to put in the extra work at home for 4 months for the bonus money. That s the way us frugal people think!!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by TomatoTomahto »

dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:31 am I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.
It's the common refrain of the RSU compensated crowd; the handcuffs can chafe a bit when you're under stress. I am not one to recommend coasting, because it generally goes against the mindset of those who got themselves into handcuffs in the first place. However, if you're way in the lead it's okay to coast a bit towards the finish line; don't hit the brakes but don't pedal as fast as you can. The stress associated with management change can be interesting to watch if your attitude is more "let's make some popcorn and see how this movie ends" rather than "oh no, the idiot board made BoBo the CEO; it's going to be hell to work here." And, you never know, but management change sometimes means packages that vest RSUs right away. :sharebeer
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Wannaretireearly »

S4C5 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:28 am
MAKsdad wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:14 am My company has announced a full time return to office beginning September 1. For a variety of reasons, remote work has really suited me and my family's dynamic, and I'm thinking about retiring rather than go back full time into the office. From a retirement standpoint, I am not really concerned about the numbers (my spouse and I are both 44, and we have a projected WR of right around 1.5% right now).

The issue is golden handcuffs. If I walk away at the end of August, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table. I could add another 4% to our current net worth if I worked through the end of the year, due to equity vesting and earning my '21 bonus (I'm reluctant to post the actual $ amount I would be foregoing just because I feel like it would bias the discussion).

Long story short, I don't feel like I need the extra money, but the practical side of me thinks that I would be a moron to pass it up over 4 months of work.

Any useful insights?
You are 44. Go back to work. Anybody can do anything for 6 months. At that age the time will fly by. How is this even a question? You have an opportunity to earn a lot of money in a short amount of time. Most people ‘used to’ kill for a chance at that. Plan a vacation of a lifetime afterwards or something to motivate you.
This. +100. I would book biz class tickets to somewhere on my bucket list. OP: you may do something else, how would you treat yourself/family? This will give you a tangible treat to look forward to.
Death and taxes. Only one is under your control!
dcabler
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by dcabler »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am
dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:31 am I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.
It's the common refrain of the RSU compensated crowd; the handcuffs can chafe a bit when you're under stress. I am not one to recommend coasting, because it generally goes against the mindset of those who got themselves into handcuffs in the first place. However, if you're way in the lead it's okay to coast a bit towards the finish line; don't hit the brakes but don't pedal as fast as you can. The stress associated with management change can be interesting to watch if your attitude is more "let's make some popcorn and see how this movie ends" rather than "oh no, the idiot board made BoBo the CEO; it's going to be hell to work here." And, you never know, but management change sometimes means packages that vest RSUs right away. :sharebeer
If I were an individual contributor like I was 20 years ago then there would be a certain appeal to coasting. Unfortunately I'm one of the actors in the movie, if you get my drift.
dcabler
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by dcabler »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am
dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:31 am I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.
It's the common refrain of the RSU compensated crowd; the handcuffs can chafe a bit when you're under stress. I am not one to recommend coasting, because it generally goes against the mindset of those who got themselves into handcuffs in the first place. However, if you're way in the lead it's okay to coast a bit towards the finish line; don't hit the brakes but don't pedal as fast as you can. The stress associated with management change can be interesting to watch if your attitude is more "let's make some popcorn and see how this movie ends" rather than "oh no, the idiot board made BoBo the CEO; it's going to be hell to work here." And, you never know, but management change sometimes means packages that vest RSUs right away. :sharebeer
If I were an individual contributor like I was 20 years ago then there would be a certain appeal to coasting. Unfortunately I'm one of the actors in the movie, if you get my drift.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by TomatoTomahto »

dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:25 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am
dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:31 am I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.
It's the common refrain of the RSU compensated crowd; the handcuffs can chafe a bit when you're under stress. I am not one to recommend coasting, because it generally goes against the mindset of those who got themselves into handcuffs in the first place. However, if you're way in the lead it's okay to coast a bit towards the finish line; don't hit the brakes but don't pedal as fast as you can. The stress associated with management change can be interesting to watch if your attitude is more "let's make some popcorn and see how this movie ends" rather than "oh no, the idiot board made BoBo the CEO; it's going to be hell to work here." And, you never know, but management change sometimes means packages that vest RSUs right away. :sharebeer
If I were an individual contributor like I was 20 years ago then there would be a certain appeal to coasting. Unfortunately I'm one of the actors in the movie, if you get my drift.
Maybe coasting was the wrong term to use. But, if you’re an actor with lines and the script is in the midst of a rewrite, it might turn out well to ride it out.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
dcabler
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by dcabler »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:39 pm
dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:25 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 am
dcabler wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:31 am I'm currently in the middle of a similar calculation. Just turned 60 and have more than "enough". On the other hand, over the period from Feb through Jun of next year I have a number of RSU's vesting. In absolute dollar terms, the amount is impressive, even after taxes. On the other hand, based on the current stock price and the nature of the RSU's, this will add only 1-2% max to the size of our portfolio as it stands today. A little more when you include next year's 401K withholdings (I front end load) plus the amount I save every month into our taxable account. But we have new exec management at my employer and while change has been sorely needed for quite some time, given my relatively short runway, I'm just not seeing why I personally would need to be part of the stresses that accommodate the changes.
It's the common refrain of the RSU compensated crowd; the handcuffs can chafe a bit when you're under stress. I am not one to recommend coasting, because it generally goes against the mindset of those who got themselves into handcuffs in the first place. However, if you're way in the lead it's okay to coast a bit towards the finish line; don't hit the brakes but don't pedal as fast as you can. The stress associated with management change can be interesting to watch if your attitude is more "let's make some popcorn and see how this movie ends" rather than "oh no, the idiot board made BoBo the CEO; it's going to be hell to work here." And, you never know, but management change sometimes means packages that vest RSUs right away. :sharebeer
If I were an individual contributor like I was 20 years ago then there would be a certain appeal to coasting. Unfortunately I'm one of the actors in the movie, if you get my drift.
Maybe coasting was the wrong term to use. But, if you’re an actor with lines and the script is in the midst of a rewrite, it might turn out well to ride it out.
That's basically the dilemma in a nutshell: Ride it out and endure the stresses, some of which I believe will be more than a little intense with the hope of increasing the the size of a pile a bit vs. saying that my financial situation is already in good shape and that nearly 4 decades in in my industry is enough. In the back of my mind, I always think about how many years left I might have on this earth and whether such stresses might reduce the number of years further....
J295
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by J295 »

Some food for thought …..
OMY
FMM
Tolstoy, How Much Land Does a Man Need
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cockersx3
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by cockersx3 »

grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
grkmec
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by grkmec »

cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:04 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
Obviously the fine print of whatever contract one has is the final determinant… but if your job entails going into work and you refuse to go back, then I would think you can be terminated for cause. The cause would be “not abiding by the rules of the role”. Under my contact such a termination would result in losing any accrued bonus or non-vested stock.

On the other hand, if I went and told my boss that think his inflexibility was unreasonable, and said something like I am shocked that you won’t make such a work from home accommodation given my performance over the last 18 months, and I needed to “re-think” my long term career. Then came into work with the intent to finish out the year and did my job. Under that scenario, my boss could only fire me “without cause”. Under my contract, I would be immediately paid out any accrued bonus, etc.

So for me it’s matters what the termination is for. Getting fired for not doing my job is pretty much the same and me being terminated for sexual harassment.
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cockersx3
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by cockersx3 »

grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:18 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:04 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
Obviously the fine print of whatever contract one has is the final determinant… but if your job entails going into work and you refuse to go back, then I would think you can be terminated for cause. The cause would be “not abiding by the rules of the role”. Under my contact such a termination would result in losing any accrued bonus or non-vested stock.

On the other hand, if I went and told my boss that think his inflexibility was unreasonable, and said something like I am shocked that you won’t make such a work from home accommodation given my performance over the last 18 months, and I needed to “re-think” my long term career. Then came into work with the intent to finish out the year and did my job. Under that scenario, my boss could only fire me “without cause”. Under my contract, I would be immediately paid out any accrued bonus, etc.

So for me it’s matters what the termination is for. Getting fired for not doing my job is pretty much the same and me being terminated for sexual harassment.
Understood, but I think many (most?) exempt employees in the US do not really have an employment contract. I'm not aware of any document that I approved / signed that specifically lists my agreement to drive to the office, neither at my current MegaCorp nor at one one prior. Like many things pre-COVID, it was just something that was assumed.

I also wonder if companies would be concerned at all about possible legal complications of summarily firing anyone that refuses to come back. I suspect that most people that would refuse to come back would be more senior staff (better set financially, in more advisory roles, possibly less hands-on work, etc), and if so mass terminations would have a disparate impact on older staff. All the more reason to provide severance to head off a potential legal threat.
Normchad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by Normchad »

cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:38 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:18 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:04 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
Obviously the fine print of whatever contract one has is the final determinant… but if your job entails going into work and you refuse to go back, then I would think you can be terminated for cause. The cause would be “not abiding by the rules of the role”. Under my contact such a termination would result in losing any accrued bonus or non-vested stock.

On the other hand, if I went and told my boss that think his inflexibility was unreasonable, and said something like I am shocked that you won’t make such a work from home accommodation given my performance over the last 18 months, and I needed to “re-think” my long term career. Then came into work with the intent to finish out the year and did my job. Under that scenario, my boss could only fire me “without cause”. Under my contract, I would be immediately paid out any accrued bonus, etc.

So for me it’s matters what the termination is for. Getting fired for not doing my job is pretty much the same and me being terminated for sexual harassment.
Understood, but I think many (most?) exempt employees in the US do not really have an employment contract. I'm not aware of any document that I approved / signed that specifically lists my agreement to drive to the office, neither at my current MegaCorp nor at one one prior. Like many things pre-COVID, it was just something that was assumed.

I also wonder if companies would be concerned at all about possible legal complications of summarily firing anyone that refuses to come back. I suspect that most people that would refuse to come back would be more senior staff (better set financially, in more advisory roles, possibly less hands-on work, etc), and if so mass terminations would have a disparate impact on older staff. All the more reason to provide severance to head off a potential legal threat.
That might fall under “job abandonment” which is a different thing. I went through it with an employee once. Basically, if they don’t show up for a period, and don’t quit, you can let them go for “job abandonment”. SHRM has some more details on that.

I am anticipating more WFH flexibility announcements in the near future, so OP might get to stay at home a good while longer.
latesaver
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by latesaver »

3CT_Paddler wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:02 pm One consideration in favor of staying... with stocks at an all time high, what happens if we have a 50% correction in the stock market? If you would be comfortable retiring today if the stock market was cut in half then I would retire today, otherwise I would wait it out 3 more months.
why wait 3 months?

this "market could fall 50%" mentality is interesting. of course that could happen. if one wants to wait until the market falls 50% and they can only THEN retire at a 4% safe withdrawal rate (SWR), then that means that you need to wait until you hit a 2% safe withdrawal rate to retire. that assumes 100% stocks for simplicity.

put another way, let's assume i spend $40,000 / year. IF i believe that a 4% SWR is "safe", i need $1MM to retire. If I am 100% stocks, and IF i factor in that stocks could fall 50%, then i would need $2MM to retire. that $2MM could fall to $1MM in a 50% stock market crash, and at $1MM, i would still be safe at a 4% SWR.
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MAKsdad
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by MAKsdad »

cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:04 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
If I had an employee who refused to follow a directive I gave, I would fire them for cause (insubordination). Maybe I'm overly harsh on that, but I'm not going to assume I'd get a severance package if I just stopped showing up.

Also we never do prorated vesting for equity (public company, don't want to look like we're playing games with options) and I don't think we've ever done prorated bonuses.
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cockersx3
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Re: How strong are my golden handcuffs

Post by cockersx3 »

Normchad wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:45 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:38 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:18 pm
cockersx3 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:04 pm
grkmec wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:30 am Seems like the risk of being summarily fired is remote. And even if you are fired, I assume it would be without cause, so don’t you immediately vest ? If not, you are thinking of walking anyway, so this isn’t a horrible outcome either.
That's actually a question I have on this, as I am going through the same questions myself. If they order you back and you don't go, do they handle it as a voluntary resignation or a termination? At my MegaCorp those two options are quite different from a financial perspective. Termination comes with severance, prorated RSU vesting, and prorated bonus awards. I think the amounts are more for people who are laid off vs people who are fired for cause, but even those let go with cause (at least in my MegaCorp) get something.
Obviously the fine print of whatever contract one has is the final determinant… but if your job entails going into work and you refuse to go back, then I would think you can be terminated for cause. The cause would be “not abiding by the rules of the role”. Under my contact such a termination would result in losing any accrued bonus or non-vested stock.

On the other hand, if I went and told my boss that think his inflexibility was unreasonable, and said something like I am shocked that you won’t make such a work from home accommodation given my performance over the last 18 months, and I needed to “re-think” my long term career. Then came into work with the intent to finish out the year and did my job. Under that scenario, my boss could only fire me “without cause”. Under my contract, I would be immediately paid out any accrued bonus, etc.

So for me it’s matters what the termination is for. Getting fired for not doing my job is pretty much the same and me being terminated for sexual harassment.
Understood, but I think many (most?) exempt employees in the US do not really have an employment contract. I'm not aware of any document that I approved / signed that specifically lists my agreement to drive to the office, neither at my current MegaCorp nor at one one prior. Like many things pre-COVID, it was just something that was assumed.

I also wonder if companies would be concerned at all about possible legal complications of summarily firing anyone that refuses to come back. I suspect that most people that would refuse to come back would be more senior staff (better set financially, in more advisory roles, possibly less hands-on work, etc), and if so mass terminations would have a disparate impact on older staff. All the more reason to provide severance to head off a potential legal threat.
That might fall under “job abandonment” which is a different thing. I went through it with an employee once. Basically, if they don’t show up for a period, and don’t quit, you can let them go for “job abandonment”. SHRM has some more details on that.

I am anticipating more WFH flexibility announcements in the near future, so OP might get to stay at home a good while longer.
But I don't think the OP is planning (or even considering) ghosting their employer. They would still be working and participating in meetings, but remotely. Not really abandonment IMO.

For what it's worth, my plan (in a very similar scenario) is to politely - but very firmly - advise my management in my next 1:1 that I will not be returning to the office full time. Given other changes in my job over the years, removal of that flexibility would make the job no longer worth it. My current and projected future responsibilities can easily be performed remotely, so there is no value to me to returning to the office to do work that I can easily do from home. I'm open to coming back intermittently when I feel it is needed, but that's about it. If that is something they feel that they need to fire me for, I'll let them know they may feel free to do so - but in any case I will not be returning.

I am FI but would be disappointed in losing my bonus / RSU payout due to the amount. Not sure if they would give me a severance or not, but worth it to me to try it and see. But in the grand scheme of things I can live without it.

That said - the job market is on fire right now, and I believe their BATNA is much worse than mine, so I doubt that they would take it that far. (Of course this assumes rational behavior on the part of my employer, which isn't a given). Will be interesting to see what their response is.
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