Mentorship - Engineering to Business

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mooudn
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Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by mooudn »

I practice as a civil engineer designing tailings facilities. I obviously didnt give much thought to my income at 18 when I chose this field, but now my priorities have shifted and my income level and savings rate has become more important to me. I feel like the best way I can realize a significant increase to my income level is making a lateral shift rather than abandoning civil eng altogether and starting from scratch.

As such, I've been toying with the idea of transitioning into the business side of the industry after meeting a few people with engineering degrees that have done that. An example is the CEO of our consulting firm. He is an engineer by training but somehow ended up on the business side of things running the financial aspect of the firm. I'm considering contacting him for a mentoring session to get some ideas on how I can do something similar. Would this be considered appropriate?

I don't really know this person and I've never met him but I feel like I have a good chance of connecting with him (he is really nice from what I've heard). Are the questions listed below appropriate questions to ask? I have a feeling they might be too personal but these are the answers I'm after. I believe that formulating good questions is halfway to the answer so I want to make sure I've prepared a really insightful list of questions...what would you ask if you were me?

- how did you go from civil engineering to becoming the CEO. What were the middle steps? what is it an intentional move or did you just fall into it?
- what do your day to day activities look like?
- how do I double my salary in 2 years?- what courses/trainings do I need to undertake to transition into business? Is an MBA a must?
Tingting1013
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tingting1013 »

What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
Zombies
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Zombies »

Almost all successful people had a lot of help along the way, and often had a direct mentor.

There’s pretty much one ironclad rule mentees live by - when someone approaches you, pay it forward.

This doesn’t mean the CEO is a bad person if they don’t have time - they may already have mentees! - but if no one often asks for advice like you are doing, you may be surprised how receptive they are.

The key is to let a relationship build naturally - asking a few questions, maybe starting with a phone call / video chat, escalating to in person if it goes well, and who knows what will happen. It certainly can’t hurt to try.

Oh, and by the way - an MBA is never needed. It can be helpful in certain industries (and I have one despite being in Tech), but there are always pathways around it. Excellence on the job in any role leads to opportunities in other functions/roles, so my advice to people who ask me if they should go to business school is if they know what they want to do already, just go do it now.
Topic Author
mooudn
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by mooudn »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
110k and 10 years in.
Tingting1013
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tingting1013 »

mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
110k and 10 years in.
If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.

Trying to grow internally into that level may take forever, or never.
cabould
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by cabould »

$110,000 is a great salary. Your end goal should be convincing a new employer to pay you more and abandon ship.
sport
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by sport »

You might consider Project Management jobs within your current area of work. Project Managers often have an engineering background. As a PM, you will get exposed to all types of business activities and responsibilities. It would then be possible to move from PM to management. However, this would probably take a lot longer than 2 years.
lazynovice
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by lazynovice »

You should check with your direct manager before asking the CEO to mentor you. One of the first things the CEO will do is to ask if you are someone that should be prioritized for this. All of your questions are good ones except the salary question. I would not introduce that into a development conversation.
GoFish
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by GoFish »

In my experience, getting to the business side of civil engineering consulting follows a path that begins with good performance as a junior engineer under supervision; passes through good performance as a professional engineer in responsible charge; passes through successful project management and supervising other engineers; and then becoming a rainmaker who can find and win new work.

Once all of those feathers are in your cap, then business-side opportunities are realistic, whether with your current employer, a new employer, or under your own shingle. It is difficult for me to imagine a successful CEO of a consulting firm who lacks those experiences.
stoptothink
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by stoptothink »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:32 pm
mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
110k and 10 years in.
If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.
It certainly could, but the median salary for a Wharton MBA grad is $150k https://www.topmba.com/blog/why-mba/how ... ngs%202021 (Stanford seems to be highest with median salary of $152k). My best friend is ~5yrs out of finishing at Wharton and he doesn't make $200k as a banker for a large regional bank.
Olemiss540
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Olemiss540 »

GoFish wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:56 pm In my experience, getting to the business side of civil engineering consulting follows a path that begins with good performance as a junior engineer under supervision; passes through good performance as a professional engineer in responsible charge; passes through successful project management and supervising other engineers; and then becoming a rainmaker who can find and win new work.

Once all of those feathers are in your cap, then business-side opportunities are realistic, whether with your current employer, a new employer, or under your own shingle. It is difficult for me to imagine a successful CEO of a consulting firm who lacks those experiences.
I would agree with this except running field work (project/construction management) is another path to the customer(s) and the quicker you can get to customer facing, the quicker you will be running business portions of the company and increasing value on the sales side of the business ($$$)
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.
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NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:46 pm heard). Are the questions listed below appropriate questions to ask? I have a feeling they might be too personal but these are the answers I'm after.]
I don't like your questions; they seem canned. Maybe just my style.

Here's what I'd respond to if I were the fellow you want to talk with:
Dear NewMoneyMustBeSmart,

I'm an X year old civil engineer and I've been successful at Y and Z. Lately I feel that my work is not as fulfilling or rewarding as I'd like it to be.

I'm impressed at how you grew your career from an engineer to business. Would you have time for coffee or a zoom call where I could pick your brain? I'd like to learn about how you grew from an engineering focus to a business focus. Happy to do this whenever it makes sense for you - here's my number - AAA-NPA-NXXX; or we can schedule a time that's good for you.

Thanks!
A friend of mine told me a story early on. First, you work in the kitchen. Then, you work as a busboy. Then you work as a waiter. Then, maybe, you can serve the important people. Then, maybe, they become friendly with you. Then, maybe, they invite you to dinner sometime. Then, maybe, you are the person inviting others.

From the timber of your posting, it seems you are looking for a formula. I suggest you need to learn how to build relationships and leverage opportunities.
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein | *Everything I write here is an unreliable opinion*
Tingting1013
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tingting1013 »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:32 pm
mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
110k and 10 years in.
If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.
It certainly could, but the median salary for a Wharton MBA grad is $150k https://www.topmba.com/blog/why-mba/how ... ngs%202021 (Stanford seems to be highest with median salary of $152k). My best friend is ~5yrs out of finishing at Wharton and he doesn't make $200k as a banker for a large regional bank.
Base salary is just one component of pay. Annual bonus, equity, signing bonus, will get you above $200k

Your friend had the option to take one of these jobs. That he didn’t is on him.
stoptothink
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by stoptothink »

Tingting1013 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:32 pm
mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm What is your current income and how many YoE do you have
110k and 10 years in.
If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.
It certainly could, but the median salary for a Wharton MBA grad is $150k https://www.topmba.com/blog/why-mba/how ... ngs%202021 (Stanford seems to be highest with median salary of $152k). My best friend is ~5yrs out of finishing at Wharton and he doesn't make $200k as a banker for a large regional bank.
Base salary is just one component of pay. Annual bonus, equity, signing bonus, will get you above $200k

Your friend had the option to take one of these jobs. That he didn’t is on him.
Salary is just one component of every job, not sure how that changes anything. Your blanket statement was false.
Tingting1013
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tingting1013 »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:32 pm
mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 pm

110k and 10 years in.
If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.
It certainly could, but the median salary for a Wharton MBA grad is $150k https://www.topmba.com/blog/why-mba/how ... ngs%202021 (Stanford seems to be highest with median salary of $152k). My best friend is ~5yrs out of finishing at Wharton and he doesn't make $200k as a banker for a large regional bank.
Base salary is just one component of pay. Annual bonus, equity, signing bonus, will get you above $200k

Your friend had the option to take one of these jobs. That he didn’t is on him.
Salary is just one component of every job, not sure how that changes anything. Your blanket statement was false.
It’s true if you want it.

At Wharton, if you want a $200k job, you interview with Bain. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Strategy&. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Accenture. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Infosys. You will get that offer.

It’s really that simple, your Wharton friend can confirm. Now if you don’t like consulting or you want to work for a nonprofit or something, yeah, you won’t reach $200k your first year out. But that’s not OP’s issue, he just wants to double his income (which is defined as more than just base salary).
sureshoe
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by sureshoe »

mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:46 pm I practice as a civil engineer designing tailings facilities. I obviously didnt give much thought to my income at 18 when I chose this field, but now my priorities have shifted and my income level and savings rate has become more important to me. I feel like the best way I can realize a significant increase to my income level is making a lateral shift rather than abandoning civil eng altogether and starting from scratch.

As such, I've been toying with the idea of transitioning into the business side of the industry after meeting a few people with engineering degrees that have done that. An example is the CEO of our consulting firm. He is an engineer by training but somehow ended up on the business side of things running the financial aspect of the firm. I'm considering contacting him for a mentoring session to get some ideas on how I can do something similar. Would this be considered appropriate?

I don't really know this person and I've never met him but I feel like I have a good chance of connecting with him (he is really nice from what I've heard). Are the questions listed below appropriate questions to ask? I have a feeling they might be too personal but these are the answers I'm after. I believe that formulating good questions is halfway to the answer so I want to make sure I've prepared a really insightful list of questions...what would you ask if you were me?

- how did you go from civil engineering to becoming the CEO. What were the middle steps? what is it an intentional move or did you just fall into it?
- what do your day to day activities look like?
- how do I double my salary in 2 years?- what courses/trainings do I need to undertake to transition into business? Is an MBA a must?
Structurally, I think you're in the neighborhood with the questions, but I'd tweak them.

Don't ask "how do I double my salary". Generally, focusing on salary is a turnoff, particularly for managers/executives. If I have someone in my org, I don't necessarily mind talking about compensation with them to keep them competitive so they don't quit, but I initiate those conversations, and it's someone for whom I'm managing their career.

I would lead like this (without a brown nosing tone):
"I admire how you started with a technical / hands-on background as an engineer. How did you make the transition from an engineering role to a leadership role? Were there purposeful decisions or was it opportunistic?"
Rather than focus on salary, focus on taking on more responsibility. I can answer that for you: people with greater scope make more money. That's what you should be asking about: "What would you recommend for me to take on more responsibility and transition in greater leadership or business driving roles?" (this is where you have to know your business, I don't - is there sales? consulting/other? You will know some of this, the CEO won't spell this out unprompted).
Is there any education or certifications that you consider a must? What's your view on an MBA? Again, you should know if the CEO has one. Odds are if he doesn't have one, he won't consider it necessary. If he does have one, ask his take on it. For example, I have an MBA and I'm "meh" on the whole thing.

I might be ignorant of your company/job, but I think doubling your salary in 2 years would be pretty tough. Doable, but tough unless you received a significant promotion. Is there a director/VP role that you can take? I just don't see how you do that if you're not currently managing people or in some higher visibility role. You'd need to get some significant base salary bump alongside a large bonus/equity component. $220k is no joke for salary, that would put you in the top 3% of all earners if I am correct.

The biggest thing is that you should be focusing on "what do I need to do to take on more responsibility." Focus on driving business value, not driving your salary. When people come to me asking about money or how to have my job, I immediately think "why do I care about you?" I want them to tell me why they are going to help the organization.
T4REngineer
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by T4REngineer »

mooudn wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:46 pm
As such, I've been toying with the idea of transitioning into the business side of the industry after meeting a few people with engineering degrees that have done that. An example is the CEO of our consulting firm. He is an engineer by training but somehow ended up on the business side of things running the financial aspect of the firm. I'm considering contacting him for a mentoring session to get some ideas on how I can do something similar. Would this be considered appropriate?

I don't really know this person and I've never met him but I feel like I have a good chance of connecting with him (he is really nice from what I've heard). Are the questions listed below appropriate questions to ask? I have a feeling they might be too personal but these are the answers I'm after. I believe that formulating good questions is halfway to the answer so I want to make sure I've prepared a really insightful list of questions...what would you ask if you were me?

- how did you go from civil engineering to becoming the CEO. What were the middle steps? what is it an intentional move or did you just fall into it?
- what do your day to day activities look like?
- how do I double my salary in 2 years?- what courses/trainings do I need to undertake to transition into business? Is an MBA a must?

Definitely skip the last question - Its simply not realistic (approaching it like you are)

IMHO You are going to high in the organization for what your goals are- There is nothing wrong with having discussions with these folks and I have had a few (set up by me) but they were much more organizational focused, not on me personally although that inevitably comes up. You need to be focused on 1-2 levels above you both in your group and the potential groups you want to join.
Don't know what those roles are, ask your leadership, set up time with a supply chain leader, a finance leader a commercial leader a M&A leader, external manufacturing leader, Pilot plant leader, quality leader, contract service managers etc. Try to get an idea of how your skill set can help these organizations/roles and what those roles can offer you in return by growing your skills/"toolbox"

Just a side note Money/Title/"Success" does not equal happiness - be careful down this path
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3CT_Paddler
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

I would second sureshoe's advice to focus on how to bring value to the firm to land a position that will get you to your salary goals.

Is your goal to a) rise to a level in a larger company that gets you to $200k/year or b) start a company that allows you to earn that salary? It takes time to rise up the ranks... being a person that goes above and beyond helps, but doesn't guarantee promotions. Starting your own business is also incredibly hard.

Honestly, MBAs in the engineering world don't bring much to the table in most roles. I know people that received their MBA and it did little for their career if they stayed in the industry. If you are able to get an MBA from a top school, then your quickest path to more money is likely outside of the civil engineering world - think business consulting. Just realize that the reason those business consultants make bigger dollars is often due to the crazy hours worked (50-60 hours). In the civil engineering world, the path to value is often on the sales side... your team also needs to deliver after a service is sold, but being able to grow the business can bring significant value to the firm and ultimately to your bottom line.

I am halfway to your goal from where you are now as far as salary at 15 years of experience, but that came about due to making moves for my company to help serve its mission of growing in a new market. It also happened rather organically in my case, but it can be done with more intention.
Capricorn51
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Capricorn51 »

There are also courses and programs in engineering management that you might consider --- much more relevant than an MBA
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Parkinglotracer »

In my company i worked for (defense sales) engineers often became program managers, functional managers, business development managers, quality, safety engineers as our products were technical in nature (radars) and you normally needed engineering experience (or a military background) with the product to understand how to manage one to engineering work or be credible with our customers. I’d talk to folks who have gone ahead of you and your peers to see what path works in and outside your company - and what path fits your skill set. Any further education maybe determined by the path you choose. Congrats on your success so far !
triyoda
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by triyoda »

Tingting1013 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:19 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:52 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:32 pm

If you want to double your income in two years the only guaranteed way is to get into a M7 MBA program. First post-MBA job will pay $200k.
It certainly could, but the median salary for a Wharton MBA grad is $150k https://www.topmba.com/blog/why-mba/how ... ngs%202021 (Stanford seems to be highest with median salary of $152k). My best friend is ~5yrs out of finishing at Wharton and he doesn't make $200k as a banker for a large regional bank.
Base salary is just one component of pay. Annual bonus, equity, signing bonus, will get you above $200k

Your friend had the option to take one of these jobs. That he didn’t is on him.
Salary is just one component of every job, not sure how that changes anything. Your blanket statement was false.
It’s true if you want it.

At Wharton, if you want a $200k job, you interview with Bain. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Strategy&. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Accenture. If you can’t get that offer you interview with Infosys. You will get that offer.

It’s really that simple, your Wharton friend can confirm. Now if you don’t like consulting or you want to work for a nonprofit or something, yeah, you won’t reach $200k your first year out. But that’s not OP’s issue, he just wants to double his income (which is defined as more than just base salary).
I'm guessing you didn't go to a M7 program? [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Yes, going to an M7 program is probably one of the best (relatively high probability of success) of getting to a $200K income within two years, with the huge caveat of you actually have to get into the program and make a relatively large investment (I'd assume tuition etc.for two years is over $100K, not even considering the opportunity cost of two years of lost wages). So for the OP, you are probably talking a total cost (including lost wages) of $350K, with a possibility of getting to $200K. So best case is probably a 7 year payback period (2 years of school + 5 years of earnings to make up).
triyoda
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by triyoda »

doubling your salary within 2 years, from $110K is extremely unlikely. Unless you are really well connected and can somehow land on the perfect tract. It's fine if you want to set that as a goal, just be realistic you probably have less than a 5% chance to achieve it (on the time scale you are suggesting)

As someone who was an engineer 20 years in, making $175K I decided to look at the business side. Didn't try to transition within the industry, went on an analytics track (knowing I would take a big pay cut up front), but with a belief I could quickly work myself into a senior data scientist or program/product manager position because of my background and education.

Two things I learned in this failed exercise. I say failed, because I am going back to engineering (fortunately in a position with similar, actually slightly higher pay than I was making). I liked the work I was doing, I was just being grossly underpaid for what I was contributing and/or thinking about the opportunity cost of what I could be making if I just stayed the course.

1. There seems to be a bias against engineers. People make assumptions you don't know how to communicate or overcomplicate things. My experience with the company I got on with is I am as smart as anyone they have and a great problem solver. Unfortunately I was brought in at such a low level, it would take years or generally be impossible to get to an appropriate level based on starting so low.

2. Kind of a corollary to 1, if you can't get on in fairly senior position on the business side, it isn't worth the trip. The whole transition is less about getting mentoring or what you actually know, than finding anyone who is willing to take the time to even understand you and give you an opportunity commensurate with your experience and capabilities. People have a very siloed view of the world and have a hard time finding parallels across industries and also don't value diverse thinking (if they have 10 MBAs, they would rather add another MBA than bring in someone with a masters degree in engineering and a history of solving difficult problems).

So think very carefully about what you are trying to do and pick your spots very carefully. I decided on the objective and went all in, in hindsight I should have been selective and only exited my situation if there was an appropriate opportunity with one outcome being I was never going to make a change.

All that said, a very interesting trip, good luck.
Tingting1013
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tingting1013 »

triyoda wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:14 am Yes, going to an M7 program is probably one of the best (relatively high probability of success) of getting to a $200K income within two years.
I’m glad we agree.
GoFish
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by GoFish »

OP: are you a good communicator? Strong verbal communications? Written?

Aside from basic personal responsibility skills (which I’m taking as a given), communication skill was the biggest discriminator I witnessed between the top executives and the worker bees in the consulting engineering world.

If you already possess these skills, leverage them. If you don’t, take a technical writing class, etc. to improve them.
Tracker968
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Re: Mentorship - Engineering to Business

Post by Tracker968 »

Retired Mechanical Engineer here, 40 years at Fortune 100 company. A previous poster asked if you had good communication skills. I would go quite a bit farther and say that to meet your goal you would need to be an excellent communicator. You would need to be comfortable and actually enjoy speaking in front of groups of 20 to 100 or more people. You need to be the person that is leading meetings, not sitting back and chiming in once in a while. If this isn't you, I would stay in engineering and focus on getting increased responsibility, and maybe project management. Just my two cents.
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