So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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Halicar
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Halicar »

warner25 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:09 am
oyster99 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 am
Halicar wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am ...I can document my usernames and passwords, but I foresee them logging onto a website and getting the message "You are logging on from an unrecognized device. To verify your identity, please enter the code sent to your email." So now they need access to my email account...but to do that they need access to my phone for yet another security code...
This is a problem I'm encountering too (the issue with a financial/insurance website not recognizing the device doing the login and needing to send an authorization code in order to permit login), and I don't have a solution for it yet...
Your executor or next-of-kin should not impersonate you after your death by logging into your accounts. They should instead contact the institution, send a copy of the death certificate or whatever, and let the institution follow its processes as required by law, regulation, etc. to properly transfer control. So this should not be an issue that requires a solution. I am shocked to see almost everyone in this thread describing their method for giving away credentials to their email and financial accounts.

My one exception to this is a Flickr account that is in my name but has all of our family photos uploaded and organized. I've included that username and password on a one-page document that also lists our financial institutions, the rough value of assets at each one, what to expect from my employer and Social Security and life insurance, and some details of monthly recurring bills and automatic payments.
I completely agree regarding financial accounts. I think it's debatable for things like Amazon Prime, Spotify, news subscriptions, etc. You raise a very good point about online hosting services. I have a lot of photos and documents on my OneDrive account that I would want people to have access to after I die. It appears that there are proper channels in place for that, but I wonder how much of a hassle it would be.
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warner25
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by warner25 »

oyster99 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:40 am You've apparently not had to deal with this situation in real life...
Admittedly, no, but as I think through my own situation, I still don't get it. My wife and I have a joint bank and taxable brokerage account with our own separate login credentials for those institutions. Would those not still be accessible to whichever one of us survives the other? Like if I die, my wife can still login and do whatever with her own credentials, and eventually my name would just be removed from the account? On other tax-advantaged accounts, we have named each other as beneficiaries. I understand that an orderly transfer of control of those assets might take a while, but that's fine; it's not like I'd need to immediately liquidate my wife's IRA.

Maybe this is more complicated for single people, but then who are their dependents that immediately need control of their assets?

How did this work in the age before online banking?

I didn't say that sharing passwords is illegal, I just think it's unnecessary while being a terrible business and security practice, and could cause complications if it's explicitly against whatever fine-print agreements you've signed with these institutions.
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warner25
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by warner25 »

Halicar wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:35 pm I completely agree regarding financial accounts...
Oh good, I thought I was the only one...
Halicar wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:35 pm You raise a very good point about online hosting services. I have a lot of photos and documents on my OneDrive account that I would want people to have access to after I die. It appears that there are proper channels in place for that, but I wonder how much of a hassle it would be.
In OneDrive you can set a folder to be shared with other users. My wife and I have a shared folder in Google Drive for all of our digital financial and legal documents. If I die, my wife can still login to Google Drive with her own credentials and see all that.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Doom&Gloom »

oyster99 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 am
Halicar wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am ...I can document my usernames and passwords, but I foresee them logging onto a website and getting the message "You are logging on from an unrecognized device. To verify your identity, please enter the code sent to your email." So now they need access to my email account...but to do that they need access to my phone for yet another security code...
This is a problem I'm encountering too (the issue with a financial/insurance website not recognizing the device doing the login and needing to send an authorization code in order to permit login), and I don't have a solution for it yet.
It’s a problem that didn’t exist ~5 years ago when I last updated my documents on this subject. It came into being due to the recent push for multi-factor authentication and requiring physical presence at some registered device, which your executor/trustee won't have access to.

So just giving your relative/executor/trustee a list of passwords in an encrypted document is not enough, especially if they are located in a different state (since there's no practical way they can go to your house after you've passed and do the login and get the code sent to your landline or smartphone).
This is a specific issue within the broader issue being discussed in this thread, so I think I will start a separate thread seeking ways to deal with online account access after you pass, in an age of multi-factor authentication.
What I have done is leave DW the master password to my primary KeePass (password manager) database. That database contains the usernames, passwords, answers to security questions, etc to all of my online accounts except my investment accounts. Through that avenue she will be able to access all of my email accounts and she already knows how to access my cell phone. She should be able to get into any account that I have other than my investment accounts.

That primary KeePass database does contain all the locations and account numbers of my investment accounts, but it does not contain usernames, passwords, etc. DW will also be able to access the PDF copies of my investment account statements. She should easily be able to contact Vanguard, et al with enough information to transact any necessary business.
cbeck
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by cbeck »

warner25 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:05 pm
oyster99 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:40 am You've apparently not had to deal with this situation in real life...
Admittedly, no, but as I think through my own situation, I still don't get it. My wife and I have a joint bank and taxable brokerage account with our own separate login credentials for those institutions. Would those not still be accessible to whichever one of us survives the other? Like if I die, my wife can still login and do whatever with her own credentials, and eventually my name would just be removed from the account? On other tax-advantaged accounts, we have named each other as beneficiaries. I understand that an orderly transfer of control of those assets might take a while, but that's fine; it's not like I'd need to immediately liquidate my wife's IRA.

Maybe this is more complicated for single people, but then who are their dependents that immediately need control of their assets?

How did this work in the age before online banking?

I didn't say that sharing passwords is illegal, I just think it's unnecessary while being a terrible business and security practice, and could cause complications if it's explicitly against whatever fine-print agreements you've signed with these institutions.
If your bank and brokerage accounts are jointly held with rights of survivorship, then, yes, after you die she will be the sole owner of the assets with uninterrupted access. Probably those accounts do have survivorship rights, but you should check, because not all do.

If you are the primary holder of your credit cards while she is just an authorized user, then on your death she will have to stop using the cards and notify the issuer who will close out the cc accounts. The good news is that she will not be liable for any remaining debt on the cards. But she will then have to apply for her own cards and she may not have as much credit history as you.
tibbitts
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

backpacker61 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
tibbitts wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:03 am
backpacker61 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:48 am
F150HD wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:52 am Fidelity has Fidsafe https://www.fidsafe.com/ though many worry about security....outside of that one wonders if that could 'disappear' in X years leaving you in the same position you were in before using it. Dunno?

Wondering if anyone uses it? If so a review would be useful.
I do use Fidsafe.

I have included scanned copies of my will, Durable POA, Medical POA, and Advanced Directives.

I also scanned copies of my tax returns for almost 40 years and uploaded them there. The main thing I have them for is all the Form 8606's for non-deductible IRA contributions that I need to have documented.
I haven't looked into that but do you really have to have all the historical 8606s? I do have them scanned, though not in the cloud other than the last five years. What about if you actually manage at some point to dispose of all your tIRAs? I do have one employer plan with a small mix of post-tax funds - I assume that's the employer's (well, their plan provider's) obligation to track, since I never have?
This is from the IRS instructions for Form 8606.

I don't understand the "why" (seems to me as if only the most recent one should be necessary?).
Given it's what the instructions "say", so it's what I "do".

https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8606

What Records Must I Keep?

To verify the nontaxable part of distributions from your IRAs, including Roth IRAs, keep a copy of the following forms and records until all distributions are made.

Page 1 of Forms 1040 or 1040-SR (or Forms 1040A, 1040-NR, or 1040-T) filed for each year you made a nondeductible contribution to a traditional IRA.

Forms 8606 and any supporting statements, attachments, and worksheets for all applicable years.

Forms 5498, IRA Contribution Information, or similar statements you received each year showing contributions you made to a traditional IRA or Roth IRA.

Forms 5498 or similar statements you received showing the value of your traditional IRAs for each year you received a distribution.

Forms 1099-R or W-2P you received for each year you received a distribution.

Note.

Forms 1040-T, 1040A, and W-2P are forms that were used in prior years.
Apparently I've only read the line-by-line instructions. I don't understand that either, but I'm glad I have scans of everything (but have tossed the physical documents.) I'm guessing the documents will almost never be needed... but you never know. I did accidentally destroy irreplaceable copies of some annuity documentation that I didn't realize I needed. I destroyed it after about twenty years and needed it after twenty-one years. Oops. Now that I think about it, the same principle applies - proving the tax classification of original funds. That was (possibly, since I can't 100% know for sure what the source of the funds was) a mistake that may have cost me tens of thousands of dollars.
tibbitts
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

warner25 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:05 pm
oyster99 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:40 am You've apparently not had to deal with this situation in real life...
Admittedly, no, but as I think through my own situation, I still don't get it. My wife and I have a joint bank and taxable brokerage account with our own separate login credentials for those institutions. Would those not still be accessible to whichever one of us survives the other? Like if I die, my wife can still login and do whatever with her own credentials, and eventually my name would just be removed from the account? On other tax-advantaged accounts, we have named each other as beneficiaries. I understand that an orderly transfer of control of those assets might take a while, but that's fine; it's not like I'd need to immediately liquidate my wife's IRA.

Maybe this is more complicated for single people, but then who are their dependents that immediately need control of their assets?

How did this work in the age before online banking?

I didn't say that sharing passwords is illegal, I just think it's unnecessary while being a terrible business and security practice, and could cause complications if it's explicitly against whatever fine-print agreements you've signed with these institutions.
I'd say that overall things were simpler before online access to ... everything. People were less likely have nineteen different financial accounts resulting from shopping for CD rates and account-opening bonuses. One toaster was enough. Plus your local institution was more likely to know who you were and maybe not be as much of an impediment to getting things done as today.

But you're also using the simplest case: a spouse. What about after the second one of you dies without a spouse in the picture? Many things are different and often more complicated for non-spouses.

Also you have a lot of stress to deal with after someone close to you has died, and often even before death you're going to have to transact on their accounts if they aren't able to. Any impediments to making payments or whatever needs to be done with accounts, maybe several of which turn out to not be configured properly for your access when you actually try, is really the last thing you want to deal with while you're spoon-feeding morphine to someone.
lazynovice
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by lazynovice »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:17 am
…. Although my wife and I do all of our non-investing finances from a joint BoA account, bill pay is only set up under her sign-in for the account - I do not see it and I do not know how to use it!
We have been using the same log-in for a decade on our joint account. Your post motivated me to get my log-in set up and make sure I could see and pay bills on it in case his is ever turned off. I thought I was going to have to set up every payee, but USAA has an option to view joint account holders’ bills. Hope they don’t make those disappear at death. But wanted to thank you for the motivation. It took much less time than I thought it would.
oyster99
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by oyster99 »

warner25 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:05 pm [...] Maybe this is more complicated for single people, but then who are their dependents that immediately need control of their assets?
Thanks for adding some perspective on interpreting your comments. Yes, with joint accounts and a surviving spouse, it can be fairly painless and everything settles almost automatically (with the standard caveat that state laws may vary). Still, it’s not zero pain, and an elderly/disabled surviving spouse will probably need help, especially if they had little involvement in financial and insurance matters.

But the passing of the last surviving spouse, and then the offspring as trustee is left trying to close out all accounts and prep and sell the house…that’s a whole different story. It turned out to be way, way, way more complicated and unnecessarily burdensome than the effort needed after the first spouse passed.

I don’t know how much of the insanity and complications in our case were pandemic related (i.e. maybe inexperienced staff working from home, seemingly making up the process as they went along, and a different person each time we’d call to check status and having to re-tell the whole story, and getting different requirements on each call (some were impossible to meet, or made no sense at all)).

Along similar lines to the passing of the last surviving spouse, the passing of an unmarried person with a house and lots of financial accounts, and where the trustee/executor is a sibling, is going to have more complications due to their general unfamiliarity with the details and possibly being located in a different state.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Doom&Gloom »

oyster99 wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:51 am
warner25 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:05 pm [...] Maybe this is more complicated for single people, but then who are their dependents that immediately need control of their assets?
Thanks for adding some perspective on interpreting your comments. Yes, with joint accounts and a surviving spouse, it can be fairly painless and everything settles almost automatically (with the standard caveat that state laws may vary). Still, it’s not zero pain, and an elderly/disabled surviving spouse will probably need help, especially if they had little involvement in financial and insurance matters.

But the passing of the last surviving spouse, and then the offspring as trustee is left trying to close out all accounts and prep and sell the house…that’s a whole different story. It turned out to be way, way, way more complicated and unnecessarily burdensome than the effort needed after the first spouse passed.

I don’t know how much of the insanity and complications in our case were pandemic related (i.e. maybe inexperienced staff working from home, seemingly making up the process as they went along, and a different person each time we’d call to check status and having to re-tell the whole story, and getting different requirements on each call (some were impossible to meet, or made no sense at all)).

Along similar lines to the passing of the last surviving spouse, the passing of an unmarried person with a house and lots of financial accounts, and where the trustee/executor is a sibling, is going to have more complications due to their general unfamiliarity with the details and possibly being located in a different state.
DW's family is going through this now. The deceased was the owner of the house, and his partner does not want to continue to live in the house. Executor and other heirs are out of state. The deceased left his affairs in a mess without a thought to someone having to sort them later. What a mess!
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Re: events that require unfreezing credit

Post by dual »

Luckywon wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:21 am If I recall correctly, the process took about three weeks and many hours of my time, with Bank of America unresponsive and obstructive all the way.
I am also processing an estate and that has also been my experience with Bank of America. They have a back office somewhere that is supposed to say it is OK to release funds but they do not do anything and there's no way to contact them. I am going to be closing my personal accounts with them.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by mptfan »

cbeck wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:51 pm If you are the primary holder of your credit cards while she is just an authorized user, then on your death she will have to stop using the cards and notify the issuer who will close out the cc accounts. The good news is that she will not be liable for any remaining debt on the cards.
That is not necessarily true, she may be liable for the charges that she incurred as an authorized user, although I agree as a practical matter it may not matter because the creditor is unlikely to go after an authorized user.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by cbeck »

mptfan wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:22 pm
cbeck wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:51 pm If you are the primary holder of your credit cards while she is just an authorized user, then on your death she will have to stop using the cards and notify the issuer who will close out the cc accounts. The good news is that she will not be liable for any remaining debt on the cards.
That is not necessarily true, she may be liable for the charges that she incurred as an authorized user, although I agree as a practical matter it may not matter because the creditor is unlikely to go after an authorized user.
The liability issue is not really of interest to us, since we pay our credit cards in full every month. What I am concerned about is that as only an authorized user, if she were to notify the CC issuers of my death they would close the account toute suite. Since we don't live in the US she would have a tough time opening new cc accounts on her own. So, I have decided for the time being that she should not notify the banks, but continue to pay the bills on time. Probably the banks will never notice and the worst thing that would happen if they did would be to shut down the account.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by lazynovice »

cbeck wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:03 am
mptfan wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:22 pm
cbeck wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:51 pm If you are the primary holder of your credit cards while she is just an authorized user, then on your death she will have to stop using the cards and notify the issuer who will close out the cc accounts. The good news is that she will not be liable for any remaining debt on the cards.
That is not necessarily true, she may be liable for the charges that she incurred as an authorized user, although I agree as a practical matter it may not matter because the creditor is unlikely to go after an authorized user.
The liability issue is not really of interest to us, since we pay our credit cards in full every month. What I am concerned about is that as only an authorized user, if she were to notify the CC issuers of my death they would close the account toute suite. Since we don't live in the US she would have a tough time opening new cc accounts on her own. So, I have decided for the time being that she should not notify the banks, but continue to pay the bills on time. Probably the banks will never notice and the worst thing that would happen if they did would be to shut down the account.
Is there anyway she can apply now for an account in her name? I would not want to risk her only card being shut off in that situation.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by cbeck »

lazynovice wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:18 am
cbeck wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:03 am
mptfan wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:22 pm
cbeck wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:51 pm If you are the primary holder of your credit cards while she is just an authorized user, then on your death she will have to stop using the cards and notify the issuer who will close out the cc accounts. The good news is that she will not be liable for any remaining debt on the cards.
That is not necessarily true, she may be liable for the charges that she incurred as an authorized user, although I agree as a practical matter it may not matter because the creditor is unlikely to go after an authorized user.
The liability issue is not really of interest to us, since we pay our credit cards in full every month. What I am concerned about is that as only an authorized user, if she were to notify the CC issuers of my death they would close the account toute suite. Since we don't live in the US she would have a tough time opening new cc accounts on her own. So, I have decided for the time being that she should not notify the banks, but continue to pay the bills on time. Probably the banks will never notice and the worst thing that would happen if they did would be to shut down the account.
Is there anyway she can apply now for an account in her name? I would not want to risk her only card being shut off in that situation.
She is likely to have a difficult time. We live in Thailand and she doesn't have much credit history. I don't know how much her credit history as an authorized user on my cards would count. She has no work income, but will have plenty of investment income after I'm gone. We should have had her apply for her own card when she was working in the US, but we did not foresee the current situation.

She could get a credit card here in Thailand, but they don't have fraud protection.

I have found numerous accounts of authorized card users who continue to use their cards for years after primary card holder has died. What the banks care most about is getting paid.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tj »

billthecat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:40 pm I document it all in an encrypted document shared with others via cloud file sharing, and the password is printed and stored with my will in a folder.
How often do you update it? At what age do you stop opening new accounts to negate the need to update it?
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by billthecat »

tj wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:45 pm
billthecat wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:40 pm I document it all in an encrypted document shared with others via cloud file sharing, and the password is printed and stored with my will in a folder.
How often do you update it? At what age do you stop opening new accounts to negate the need to update it?
I update it as I learn new things to include (e.g., doctor info) or accounts change (e.g., if I catch wind here about a savings account opportunity). I'm not sure there's any specific age where that would end. They can't get to the info without the password, but it's continuously synced to their devices.

I figure it's a pretty good solution, because select people have the file but not the password. The password, but not the info, is printed. The two don't get combined until my untimely ☠️. And at that point, the password can be retrieved and shared with the folks who have the file.
We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails • It's later than you think • Ack! Thbbft!
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by OpenMinded1 »

AARP article on what not to keep in a safe deposit box. https://www.aarp.org/money/investing/i ... mjbonio%3d
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by hudson »

OpenMinded1 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:09 am AARP article on what not to keep in a safe deposit box. https://www.aarp.org/money/investing/i ... mjbonio%3d
Thanks! It is a good article except when it says
Worst Things to Store in a Safe Deposit Box
Emergency cash
Letter of instruction (including funeral instructions)
Living will
Original last will and testament
Passport
Power of attorney (financial and health)
Uninsured valuables
It's not OK to put one's will in safe deposit box?

I've heard this advice myself so many times that it could be a rule of thumb.
Beware of rules of thumb. I think everyone should do their homework and read the law or ask the attorney who does his/her will.
In some states, it's OK to put a will in a safe deposit box.
My will is in a safe deposit box. Those who need to get the will can get it without delay after my passing. My executor is on the access list; the keys will be available when needed.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

hudson wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:03 am
OpenMinded1 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:09 am AARP article on what not to keep in a safe deposit box. https://www.aarp.org/money/investing/i ... mjbonio%3d
Thanks! It is a good article except when it says
Worst Things to Store in a Safe Deposit Box
Emergency cash
Letter of instruction (including funeral instructions)
Living will
Original last will and testament
Passport
Power of attorney (financial and health)
Uninsured valuables
It's not OK to put one's will in safe deposit box?

I've heard this advice myself so many times that it could be a rule of thumb.
Beware of rules of thumb. I think everyone should do their homework and read the law or ask the attorney who does his/her will.
In some states, it's OK to put a will in a safe deposit box.
My will is in a safe deposit box. Those who need to get the will can get it without delay after my passing. My executor is on the access list; the keys will be available when needed.
I did a quick search and oddly didn't see a list of which states do or don't allow box access (or list of restrictions for that matter) after death. In my state access is allowed to anyone one the access list. I would have thought an article like the one discussed here would have included such a list. As a practical matter I doubt a bank would know if someone die, but I would rely on that for box access.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by hudson »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:12 am
hudson wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:03 am
OpenMinded1 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:09 am AARP article on what not to keep in a safe deposit box. https://www.aarp.org/money/investing/i ... mjbonio%3d
Thanks! It is a good article except when it says
Worst Things to Store in a Safe Deposit Box
Emergency cash
Letter of instruction (including funeral instructions)
Living will
Original last will and testament
Passport
Power of attorney (financial and health)
Uninsured valuables
It's not OK to put one's will in safe deposit box?

I've heard this advice myself so many times that it could be a rule of thumb.
Beware of rules of thumb. I think everyone should do their homework and read the law or ask the attorney who does his/her will.
In some states, it's OK to put a will in a safe deposit box.
My will is in a safe deposit box. Those who need to get the will can get it without delay after my passing. My executor is on the access list; the keys will be available when needed.
I did a quick search and oddly didn't see a list of which states do or don't allow box access (or list of restrictions for that matter) after death. In my state access is allowed to anyone one the access list. I would have thought an article like the one discussed here would have included such a list. As a practical matter I doubt a bank would know if someone die, but I would rely on that for box access.
To find out if the safe deposit box is easily accessible after death in your state, an internet search might work.

A quick search turned up this for Massachusetts at this website: http://silveriwilson.com/massachusetts-wills-lawyer
Storing Wills and Estate Planning Documents
The location of your original estate plan should be known by your executor and your attorney and possibly close friends or relatives. Your Will and other documents should be kept in a safe place, such as your safe deposit box, your lawyer's safe, or a locked, fireproof box at your residence. If you keep your Will in a safe deposit box, you need to ensure that someone will be authorized to access this box on your behalf after your death.
One might want to double check this by searching for the law that regulates safe deposit boxes....or just contact your lawyer.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

hudson wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:24 am To find out if the safe deposit box is easily accessible after death in your state, an internet search might work.
The quick internet search that failed for me was a list of all the states where it is or isn't okay to keep a will in a safe deposit box. That's what I would have expected the article to report. I've always found it easy to find the information for individual states (the two that I've cared about so far), but I'm sure someone has done that research for every state and compiled it.

Sort of like it's easy to find a list of which states that still aren't cooperating with Social Security sufficiently to allow online card replacement. Or a list of states that don't tax Social Security benefits.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by hudson »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:55 am
hudson wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:24 am To find out if the safe deposit box is easily accessible after death in your state, an internet search might work.
The quick internet search that failed for me was a list of all the states where it is or isn't okay to keep a will in a safe deposit box. That's what I would have expected the article to report.
I've always found it easy to find the information for individual states (the two that I've cared about so far),
but I'm sure someone has done that research for every state and compiled it.

Sort of like it's easy to find a list of which states that still aren't cooperating with Social Security sufficiently to allow online card replacement. Or a list of states that don't tax Social Security benefits.
My search didn't turn up that list either...but I'm like you, my interest is in only one state. I confirmed that the box will be available with a bank officer, an ex-bank trust officer, and with a local attorney's website. I also found and read my state's law on safe deposit boxes. If I was an executor, I would clean out that box as soon as possible.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by LilyFleur »

jebmke wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:44 am
nisiprius wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:48 am I don't have any good answers.
One part of a good answer is to keep things as simple as possible. Every time I get a chance I try to simplify the entire financial situation. I took more steps during the pandemic - partly because I had time on my hands and partly because of the increased risk that it matters.

The financial part was already pretty easy and done. One investment custodian, two banks, three credit cards.
Yes, last year I sold a stack of paper EE bonds (my children were not beneficiaries--long story), and I liquidated a not-too-large inherited IRA. Streamlining makes it so much easier when someone dies.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Kagord »

Reading this brought something to light, we have a listing of all financial accounts with the papers, and for those that don't, tax returns are a great cross check.

However, bills and credit cards, we are 100% electronic and use email, there is not a paper bill in the house, I'm going to add a list of all the bills and credit cards and try to keep that updated as well.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by hudson »

Great discussion! Thinking about this discussion gave me an idea. Somebody probably said it up thread, but I didn't pay attention.
The thought of making lists, folders, or books gives me heartburn.
I do keep an updated list of holdings on a 5x8 card.
Since all of my financial stuff is in a folder on my computer, I'll just copy it to a thumb drive and put with the 5x8 card.
It will include statements, tax returns, bills, medical, and more....2 Gigabytes of stuff. I don't have to share any passwords.
My executor will have access to it only after my passing.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Lee_WSP »

Returning to this thread since it seems like something people are interested in.

Regarding bills. I would not recommend spending the extra time and effort to compile a list of these for your executor. The providers and services you use throughout life will change too rapidly to make updating such a file worthwhile given the limited benefit.

By limited benefit, I mean that your executor doesn’t really need to know that you are paying Spotify for monthly services. The only bills that matter are those related to real estate or rentals (safety deposit boxes, storage units, etc). However, the executor doesn’t necessarily need to know about the bills, the executor simply needs to know such assets exist and that s/he needs to go and secure those assets by changing the bill to person.

For all other bills, the providers can get in line and submit their claims like normal creditors. At which point the executor can admit or deny them (deny because the decedent died and any continuing service contract (aforementioned Spotify) typically ends upon the death of the signatory).

*Financial accounts are not considered “bills” in this post. So, yes, your executor needs to know about the existence of any loans or credit or things of the like.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Nutmeg »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:46 pm Returning to this thread since it seems like something people are interested in.

Regarding bills. I would not recommend spending the extra time and effort to compile a list of these for your executor. The providers and services you use throughout life will change too rapidly to make updating such a file worthwhile given the limited benefit.

By limited benefit, I mean that your executor doesn’t really need to know that you are paying Spotify for monthly services. The only bills that matter are those related to real estate or rentals (safety deposit boxes, storage units, etc). However, the executor doesn’t necessarily need to know about the bills, the executor simply needs to know such assets exist and that s/he needs to go and secure those assets by changing the bill to person.

For all other bills, the providers can get in line and submit their claims like normal creditors. At which point the executor can admit or deny them (deny because the decedent died and any continuing service contract (aforementioned Spotify) typically ends upon the death of the signatory).

*Financial accounts are not considered “bills” in this post. So, yes, your executor needs to know about the existence of any loans or credit or things of the like.
I am taking the opposite approach. I am making a list of my automatic bill payments for my executor. One utility is automatically charged to my credit card, and several charges are paid automatically from my bank account.

I don’t want the cable company to get one more cent of my money once my husband and I die.

I want my cell phone to be cancelled but not those of the other four people for whose cell phones I pay.

I want utilities for our house to continue uninterrupted.

My executor’s life will be easier if he knows the names, account numbers, and contact info for all of these businesses.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tadamsmar »

nisiprius wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:48 am The right mindset is "this original will is something that must be found quickly...
Why?

Also "quickly" is vague. How long is acceptable?
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tadamsmar »

My wife and I have been executors 3 times.

The fact is that you eventually get snail mail from any organization that needs to contact the deceased.

Mail forwarding from the deceased snail mail address solves a lot of potential problems, assuming that no one is living at that address.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Tom_T »

Something I've thought about recently (apologies if it was already mentioned in this long thread): your phone's unlock code. Think of all the companies that are using two-factor authentication. Your spouse wants to log onto your Vanguard account (assuming he/she hasn't been added as an authorized user.) Or your Amazon account, or credit card, or whatever. And there's the message: "we've sent a code to your device."
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by FBN2014 »

Tom_T wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am Something I've thought about recently (apologies if it was already mentioned in this long thread): your phone's unlock code. Think of all the companies that are using two-factor authentication. Your spouse wants to log onto your Vanguard account (assuming he/she hasn't been added as an authorized user.) Or your Amazon account, or credit card, or whatever. And there's the message: "we've sent a code to your device."
On my phone I unlock with my fingerprint and on the laptop with face recognition. I guess I should turn that off before dying 😅. Seriously though, any thoughts on that?
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Parkinglotracer »

anoop wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:22 pm the title is a bit funny. it reads as if it is about how the guy that killed you finds all your accounts & bills. :)

+1 lol
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by lazynovice »

tadamsmar wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:37 am My wife and I have been executors 3 times.

The fact is that you eventually get snail mail from any organization that needs to contact the deceased.

Mail forwarding from the deceased snail mail address solves a lot of potential problems, assuming that no one is living at that address.
We have turned off paper statements on everything. The only snail mail we receive from brokerages and banks are solicitations and that is only for the banks. Did you have to follow up on every solicitation? How did that work?
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

FBN2014 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:04 am
Tom_T wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am Something I've thought about recently (apologies if it was already mentioned in this long thread): your phone's unlock code. Think of all the companies that are using two-factor authentication. Your spouse wants to log onto your Vanguard account (assuming he/she hasn't been added as an authorized user.) Or your Amazon account, or credit card, or whatever. And there's the message: "we've sent a code to your device."
On my phone I unlock with my fingerprint and on the laptop with face recognition. I guess I should turn that off before dying 😅. Seriously though, any thoughts on that?
Interesting question about the phone... I haven't tried that but sometimes my win10 computer doesn't recognize my fingerprint so I enter my MS PIN. On my other win10 computer... long story but the keyboard finger reader doesn't work now so it always asks for my PIN. The PIN is in my Lastpass for my phone's online account (the account for management etc.) and MS accounts but I know it would/will be a nuisance to deal with. I have everything in an encrypted file too but there are complicated issues with accessing that too. If you have in-person access to someone it would be a good idea to sort of practice access periodically, but at least for me that would be just annoying to try to do over Zoom or whatever and lots of us never see anyone we know in-person in the pandemic era.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by cjcerny »

Shared docs in Google Docs works real well for stuff like this.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Robdac »

You could always do what my sick elderly mother is doing.

Just tell me the paperwork is in the house, that looks like an episode of Hoarders, and refuse to have a meaningful conversation about any of it.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tadamsmar »

lazynovice wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:45 am
tadamsmar wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:37 am My wife and I have been executors 3 times.

The fact is that you eventually get snail mail from any organization that needs to contact the deceased.

Mail forwarding from the deceased snail mail address solves a lot of potential problems, assuming that no one is living at that address.
We have turned off paper statements on everything. The only snail mail we receive from brokerages and banks are solicitations and that is only for the banks. Did you have to follow up on every solicitation? How did that work?
True that they will not send snail mail unless they need to send you a notice of a problem.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tibbitts »

cjcerny wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:40 am Shared docs in Google Docs works real well for stuff like this.
Well, I would say that encryption is Google Docs isn't the most amazingly straightforward and handiest process ever.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Luckywon »

FBN2014 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:04 am
Tom_T wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am Something I've thought about recently (apologies if it was already mentioned in this long thread): your phone's unlock code. Think of all the companies that are using two-factor authentication. Your spouse wants to log onto your Vanguard account (assuming he/she hasn't been added as an authorized user.) Or your Amazon account, or credit card, or whatever. And there's the message: "we've sent a code to your device."
On my phone I unlock with my fingerprint and on the laptop with face recognition. I guess I should turn that off before dying 😅. Seriously though, any thoughts on that?
Regarding the phone, aren't both fingerprint and code methods of unlocking simultaneously available? That's how it is on mine. Perhaps it's the same on the laptop.

BTW I have seen a few spy movies where there is a workaround the situation where a fingerprint is needed but the person is deceased. Ask yourself, what would Jack Bauer from 24 do? :twisted: But I agree, best to preempt this situation.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by ebeb »

The trouble with any online or electronic files is if one letter is off in the password or some file corruption, it will be lost forever. For example online password manager like LastPass, I store all passwords manually and mangle them so only I know, to guard against someone hacking into LastPass. I think something physical like printed paper with all details wills, trusts, accounts etc. and storing into a bank lockbox may be better. Even if the lockbox key is lost, the bank will open for the executors I believe.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Hebell »

If the deceased has an online social security account, or accounts related to their Medicare or Medigap (supplemental) plans, I have found that those close about 48 hours after death. If you want to print out current benefits, current claims or current payments, Do it fast! If a person is ailing for a while, you'll probably have done this already. But if someone is declining swiftly to their death, print out what you need before those accounts turn off.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by teniralc »

I used a Google Sheet called Master Information Kit that is no longer available, but I could send you a copy of you like. Just message me on this site if you want it.

It is described on this site: https://lifehacker.com/how-to-create-an ... me-5817021

The first tab on this Google Sheet lists all my bills, ordered by calendar day/month in groups of Annual, Monthly, Seasonal, When Needed. Here are the horizontal category headings for that particular Bills tab:

DATE PAID FREQUENCY NAME 1Password Login DESCRIPTION AMOUNT TYPE "AUTO PAY

I also scanned many of my documents, put them in a Dropbox folder and linked them to the Google sheet. I also use 1Password password manager and instructions for using that on a different computer are included in my instructions.

I wrote a set of "Post Mortem Instructions" that is linked in the Google Sheet, which resides in the Dropbox. All important/private information would need to be accessed by using 1Password.

I continually update and revisit this spreadsheet and the Post Mortem Instructions. I (ask/insist) my wife and daughters to look at the spreadsheet with me for about 3 minutes at a time at periodic intervals because they don't have the patience to look at it. But, having shown them so many times now, they will be able to use it should they need to.

Good luck and I'm sorry to hear about your health news. I wish you and your family all my best.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by Jablean »

tadamsmar wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:26 am
nisiprius wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:48 am The right mindset is "this original will is something that must be found quickly...
Why?

Also "quickly" is vague. How long is acceptable?
When - is as soon as the executor (hopefully already known) needs it. In my case it would have been helpful in the days before my mom actually passed (very short hospice) or within the week after. She made a handwritten addendum regarding her vehicles and gave that to the lawyer but we thought the original was in a bank lock box which we couldn't get into because she was the only one on the access list. It was October so a short time to decide on RMDs (had to be taken or penalty) even with TOD I didn't have full authority until rec'd executor papers for her broker. Court holidays, not being able to find the original, having to further petition the court to accept the signed copy the lawyer had (orig was not in lock box or elsewhere), took three months to get executor papers. That's a long time to be paying housing and funeral bills out of heirs life insurance receipts or their own savings (one heir was living in house). Bank account was not TOD but part of will assets.

Movies always have this wrong with the solicitor/lawyer having the original and calling everyone in to go over the will. They only represent the executor, not the heirs, and surprisingly they don't keep the original.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by JMacDonald »

I haven't read what other people are doing, but here is what I have done:
I use to write down all the different bills and auto pay plus other info.
However, stuff kept changing, and I would need to rewrite the info.
Now, I keep everything on my MacBook Air in the Notes App, so if there is a change
I can update it immediately. I also have a trust. No Picasso here.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by 8foot7 »

The estate attorney we used for my MIL’s estate (she was not terribly organized, though not a hoarder—could have been better, could have been worse) basically said to collect her mail for eight weeks and send everyone who sent a bill the actual bill back with “deceased” on the date of death on it. That coupled with the newspaper advertisement he said was enough due diligence to notify creditors. AT&T was the lone creditor that did not catch our drift and continues to hound a dead woman four years later for an early termination fee of a TV contract.

The house nearly went into foreclosure because we could not access funds to pay the mortgage because Wells Fargo refused to unlock her account until probate was opened and my wife was appointed executrix. It may have helped that Wells Fargo held the mortgage. We sat in the bankers office and basically said she owed the money to you, you have the money sitting there, you won’t let us pay you with it so this sounds like your problem not ours.

All that is to say it may not matter how organized or not you are — two months of mail and a newspaper advertisement will probably get 95% of the job done. Focus on the big rocks; house, cars, beneficiaries, investments, insurance that will pay out. Worry not much at all about the Visa and the pest control service.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by burbank »

I'd guess many people on this forum are the type to keep a spreadsheet of their accounts and update it at the end of each year and see how things are going.  Printing that single page annually to store with your will should go a long way in helping the executor.  If that page has account numbers, balances, and POD designations, the executor will know who to contact and what to expect without logging in to impersonate the deceased.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by hudson »

burbank wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:24 pm I'd guess many people on this forum are the type to keep a spreadsheet of their accounts and update it at the end of each year and see how things are going.  Printing that single page annually to store with your will should go a long way in helping the executor.  If that page has account numbers, balances, and POD designations, the executor will know who to contact and what to expect without logging in to impersonate the deceased.
I just make some notes on a 4x6 card...just assets...no account numbers.
I probably should throw in my last tax return documents on a thumb drive.
My executor along with probate can sort out the bills.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by investnoob »

Watty wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:52 am In your "If I die folder" one thing that would be good to have is a list of people to notify about your funeral so they can attend if they want to.

When my dad died my mom knew who would want to know about the funeral.

Later when my mom died it was a lot different since my siblings and I all lived in different cities and did not know everyone who would want to know and we did not have a lot of peoples current contact information.
This is one thing I never thought of. My father has few assets, so I am not really worried about settling his estate one day. But I actually have no idea who I should tell when he passes away (hopefully many years from now!). I should make a list for myself too.
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Re: So now you're dead -- how does your executor find all your accounts & bills?

Post by tadamsmar »

Jablean wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:12 pm
tadamsmar wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:26 am
nisiprius wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:48 am The right mindset is "this original will is something that must be found quickly...
Why?

Also "quickly" is vague. How long is acceptable?
When - is as soon as the executor (hopefully already known) needs it. In my case it would have been helpful in the days before my mom actually passed (very short hospice) or within the week after. She made a handwritten addendum regarding her vehicles and gave that to the lawyer but we thought the original was in a bank lock box which we couldn't get into because she was the only one on the access list. It was October so a short time to decide on RMDs (had to be taken or penalty) even with TOD I didn't have full authority until rec'd executor papers for her broker. Court holidays, not being able to find the original, having to further petition the court to accept the signed copy the lawyer had (orig was not in lock box or elsewhere), took three months to get executor papers. That's a long time to be paying housing and funeral bills out of heirs life insurance receipts or their own savings (one heir was living in house). Bank account was not TOD but part of will assets.

Movies always have this wrong with the solicitor/lawyer having the original and calling everyone in to go over the will. They only represent the executor, not the heirs, and surprisingly they don't keep the original.
So, you needed it immediately for what reason? Something about the vehicles?

It takes a while to get a death certificate and I think that is needed to get the executor papers.
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