Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

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palanzo
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Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Vanguard is no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement for mutual fund accounts. I don't know if this also applies for brokerage accounts. Instead they are providing a "2020 foreign tax credit information for eligible Vanguard funds" document.

Has anyone been able to recreate the information that used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement?

It is not clear to me what is meant by, "at a total dollar-per-share level"?

Also there is a caveat that "The income dividend doesn't include capital gains distributions (whether short-term or long-term)". So should capital gains distributions (whether short-term or long-term) somehow be incorporated to calculate the foreign tax paid?
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by livesoft »

My 1099-DIV contain the foreign taxes that my ETFs have paid. I suppose if you have your foreign funds in a tax-advantaged account, then you won't get a 1099-DIV. However, it is trivial to use the information that Vanguard has given everyone to calculated the foreign taxes paid by almost any of their funds.

If you give a ticker symbol, then I suppose someone could show you how to do the calculations.
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cas
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by cas »

palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:50 pm Has anyone been able to recreate the information that used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement?
Here (and subsequent posts) from earlier today.

Also here, although that thread is more distress and less calculation.
Random Poster
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Random Poster »

palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:50 pm Vanguard is no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement for mutual fund accounts.
Well, this is disappointing, presuming that it is true for all mutual fund account owners.

I seem to be getting less service for my dollar from Vanguard these days—it feels like they want me to leave.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

livesoft wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:53 pm My 1099-DIV contain the foreign taxes that my ETFs have paid. I suppose if you have your foreign funds in a tax-advantaged account, then you won't get a 1099-DIV. However, it is trivial to use the information that Vanguard has given everyone to calculated the foreign taxes paid by almost any of their funds.

If you give a ticker symbol, then I suppose someone could show you how to do the calculations.
I agree. The 1099-DIV contain the foreign taxes paid. TurboTax also requires the Foreign Income which used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement. The Foreign Income was always less than Total Ordinary Dividends. Typically 98.74% for Total International.

Now, on the 2020 foreign tax credit information document from Vanguard, the Foreign Income % for Total International is 100.00000%. Yes, they quote to 5 decimal places.

To me this all seems too much of a coincidence. I'm finding it hard to believe that these numbers are correct.

I don't understand why Vanguard is now not providing the Foreign Tax Paid statement which quoted dollars and cents.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

cas wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:15 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:50 pm Has anyone been able to recreate the information that used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement?
Here (and subsequent posts) from earlier today.

Also here, although that thread is more distress and less calculation.
Thank you.

I replied there and pointed out that "You also need Foreign Income in TurboTax which is not necessarily the same as dividends".
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post and reply. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters.
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grok87
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by grok87 »

yikes. this is bad news
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Is this what you want?

January 21, 2021
2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... 012021.pdf
Use this worksheet to assist with the preparation of IRS Form 1116: Foreign Tax Credit.

January 26, 2021
ICI 2020 Secondary layout spreadsheet
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This file lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains. It provides breakdowns for foreign-source income, threshold requirements for exempt-interest income, and percentages of income from different states.

February 10, 2021
ICI revised 2020 Primary layout spreadsheet (with REIT finals)
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This updated file includes final figures for Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund. It lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains as well as their corresponding dates. The file includes breakdowns for foreign-tax paid, qualified income, exempt-interest dividends, and Alternative Minimum Tax percentages.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:01 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Is this what you want?

January 21, 2021
2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... 012021.pdf
Use this worksheet to assist with the preparation of IRS Form 1116: Foreign Tax Credit.

January 26, 2021
ICI 2020 Secondary layout spreadsheet
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This file lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains. It provides breakdowns for foreign-source income, threshold requirements for exempt-interest income, and percentages of income from different states.

February 10, 2021
ICI revised 2020 Primary layout spreadsheet (with REIT finals)
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This updated file includes final figures for Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund. It lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains as well as their corresponding dates. The file includes breakdowns for foreign-tax paid, qualified income, exempt-interest dividends, and Alternative Minimum Tax percentages.
Thank you for the reply.

I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by livesoft »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
"use to be provided" was at least after 2015. In 2015 and before, one had to calculate the actual foreign income from the same information given about tax year 2020. I suspect that many people do not remember all this because their foreign tax credit was below the amount required to file a Form 1116, so they just took the credit without needing to know the actual foreign income.

Anyways, if you want your brokerage firm to report the foreign income and the foreign qualified dividend income in dollar amounts with no calculations needed, then I suggest you switch to WellsFargo or TDAmeritrade both of which I know give these numbers directly for Vanguard products for tax year 2020 (and for earlier tax years, too).
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Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:01 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Is this what you want?

January 21, 2021
2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... 012021.pdf
Use this worksheet to assist with the preparation of IRS Form 1116: Foreign Tax Credit.

January 26, 2021
ICI 2020 Secondary layout spreadsheet
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This file lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains. It provides breakdowns for foreign-source income, threshold requirements for exempt-interest income, and percentages of income from different states.

February 10, 2021
ICI revised 2020 Primary layout spreadsheet (with REIT finals)
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This updated file includes final figures for Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund. It lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains as well as their corresponding dates. The file includes breakdowns for foreign-tax paid, qualified income, exempt-interest dividends, and Alternative Minimum Tax percentages.
Thank you for the reply.

I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
The "Secondary Layout" has a column:
6 Foreign Source Income: % of Box 1a, Col. 17 on Primary Layout

in the Primary layout:

17 Box 1a Total Ordinary Dividends (14+15+16)

(this is the sum of Income dividends, short term capital gains and foreign tax paid)

what fund? and who said Vanguards 2019 numbers are correct?
jhawktx
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by jhawktx »

palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:51 pm
cas wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:15 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:50 pm Has anyone been able to recreate the information that used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement?
Here (and subsequent posts) from earlier today.

Also here, although that thread is more distress and less calculation.
Thank you.

I replied there and pointed out that "You also need Foreign Income in TurboTax which is not necessarily the same as dividends".
So the only reason you want foreign income is because Turbo Tax asks for it?
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by jebmke »

jhawktx wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:53 pm So the only reason you want foreign income is because Turbo Tax asks for it?
It may be needed to complete Form 1116 for those who are required to complete it. I assume that TT asks for it if you exceed the safe harbor number for foreign tax paid that exempts you from having to file a form 1116 to claim a FTC. I haven't used TT in years but that is how most tax software works.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

jhawktx wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:53 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:51 pm
cas wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:15 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:50 pm Has anyone been able to recreate the information that used to be on the Foreign Tax Paid statement?
Here (and subsequent posts) from earlier today.

Also here, although that thread is more distress and less calculation.
Thank you.

I replied there and pointed out that "You also need Foreign Income in TurboTax which is not necessarily the same as dividends".
So the only reason you want foreign income is because Turbo Tax asks for it?
Yes and it is required to complete 1116 and file your taxes. I think that is a good reason.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

jebmke wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:00 pm
jhawktx wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:53 pm So the only reason you want foreign income is because Turbo Tax asks for it?
It may be needed to complete Form 1116 for those who are required to complete it. I assume that TT asks for it if you exceed the safe harbor number for foreign tax paid that exempts you from having to file a form 1116 to claim a FTC. I haven't used TT in years but that is how most tax software works.
That's correct jebmke.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:39 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:01 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Is this what you want?

January 21, 2021
2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... 012021.pdf
Use this worksheet to assist with the preparation of IRS Form 1116: Foreign Tax Credit.

January 26, 2021
ICI 2020 Secondary layout spreadsheet
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This file lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains. It provides breakdowns for foreign-source income, threshold requirements for exempt-interest income, and percentages of income from different states.

February 10, 2021
ICI revised 2020 Primary layout spreadsheet (with REIT finals)
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This updated file includes final figures for Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund. It lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains as well as their corresponding dates. The file includes breakdowns for foreign-tax paid, qualified income, exempt-interest dividends, and Alternative Minimum Tax percentages.
Thank you for the reply.

I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
The "Secondary Layout" has a column:
6 Foreign Source Income: % of Box 1a, Col. 17 on Primary Layout

in the Primary layout:

17 Box 1a Total Ordinary Dividends (14+15+16)

(this is the sum of Income dividends, short term capital gains and foreign tax paid)

what fund? and who said Vanguards 2019 numbers are correct?
Thank you for looking into this. Let me make coffee and work on this spreadsheet. I don't have Excel so I hope the spreadsheet will work in Numbers.
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by dkarst »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm
grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
I guess since I was the one that came up with the algorithm it seemed to me VG is using I'll make a comment. I was provided the old foreign tax paid form until this year so this % table thing is new to me.

I have three funds impacted, LStratMod, Tot International and Emerging:

For LStratMod, working from left to right (and noting that the starting is not box 1a from 1099-Div), I get the foreign tax paid number in agreement with 1099-Div. Using this number I calc the foreign income needed for form 1116. Then I calculated column 4 using the equation I had listed earlier above and got 38.323% vs. the VG number of 38.326%.

For Total International, following same procedure, I calculated a column 4 of 100.007% vs. the 100% to five place VG provided.

For Emerging, following same, I get a column 4 of 99.85% vs. the 100% to five places VG provided. Unless things clear up quickly, I'll probably just take the conservative path as it is only a couple dollars and won't fail a computer match as I don't believe the foreign income gets reported to IRS as others numbers do.

I haven't gone back to my 2019 Foreign income sheet VG provided and dug up the equivalent table of percentages as it seems others are working that angle.

Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by livesoft »

dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
Since you looked at your 2015 document, do you have a copy of the 1099-DIV and information that Vanguard semt you that year? I have stated that Vanguard did not send me info detailing the dollars amount of Foreign Income and Foreign Qualified Income, but instead one had to calculate them using the "percentage sheets" found on their website.

Many of the historical Vanguard "percentage sheets" can be found at Vanguard.com: https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... ?year=2020
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

livesoft wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:53 pm
dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
Since you looked at your 2015 document, do you have a copy of the 1099-DIV and information that Vanguard semt you that year? I have stated that Vanguard did not send me info detailing the dollars amount of Foreign Income and Foreign Qualified Income, but instead one had to calculate them using the "percentage sheets" found on their website.

Many of the historical Vanguard "percentage sheets" can be found at Vanguard.com: https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... ?year=2020
I calculated column 4 for 2019 for Total International: 98.73870%.

The historical "percentage sheets" indicate 98.74128%.

Thank you livesoft for providing a link to the historical data.

Any idea why the discrepancy? Do you think that the 2020 sheet which states 100.00000% should be believed?
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by livesoft »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:21 pmI calculated column 4 for 2019 for Total International: 98.73870%.

The historical "percentage sheets" indicate 98.74128%.

Thank you livesoft for providing a link to the historical data.

Any idea why the discrepancy? Do you think that the 2020 sheet which states 100.00000% should be believed?
Do not believe in false precision. 98.74% is the same as 98.74%.

Yes, I believe 100% is 100%. Think about it this way: For a tax return where numbers are usually rounded to the nearest dollar anyways, how much of VTIAX, or VEA or any other fund would one have to own to make a $1 change in any number reported on Form 1116? $2 million? $12 billion?

BTW, you can play with precision yourself. Try change the dollar amount of the foreign tax you paid by 1 cent. What are the resulting numbers and their change when going from -1 cent to 0 cent to +1 cent delta. Do the same for changing the share amounts: 101.234 share to 101.233 shares to 1010.235 shares. Play to your heart's content.

(And don't forget that 1 cent is a bigger percentage of $1,000 than it is of $100,000 and also that 0.001 share is a bigger percentage of 100 shares than it is of 10,000 shares.)
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blackbird
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by blackbird »

Hi,

Here's my calculation. I'll use a made-up amount for a single fund, Developed Markets Index.

Assume Foreign Tax Paid per 1099-DIV for my fund is $2,500. Note I use 20% rate for qualified dividends.

Using the 2020 Foreign Tax Credit information sheet from Vanguard:

Foreign Income = $2,500 * 13.13516 = $32,838
QDI-Eligible Foreign Income = $2,500 * 10.68106 = $26,703

Adjusted Foreign Income = (Foreign Income - QDI-Eligible Foreign Income) + (QDI-Eligible Foreign Income * 0.5405 Adj. Factor)
Adjusted Foreign Income = ($32,838 - $26,703) + ($26,703 * 0.5405)
Adjusted Foreign Income = $20,568

Input $20,568 into tax software for 1a of Form 1116.

Is this what others are doing?

Blackbird
dkarst
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by dkarst »

livesoft wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:53 pm
dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
Since you looked at your 2015 document, do you have a copy of the 1099-DIV and information that Vanguard semt you that year? I have stated that Vanguard did not send me info detailing the dollars amount of Foreign Income and Foreign Qualified Income, but instead one had to calculate them using the "percentage sheets" found on their website.

Many of the historical Vanguard "percentage sheets" can be found at Vanguard.com: https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... ?year=2020
Thanks for following that this isn't the thread where you posted that earlier info. There are multiple threads here and I think I'm confusing myself.

To answer your question, YES, if I go to my VG home page and Tax Center, I find the "Foreign tax paid" form that lists in dollar amounts the foreign income and QDI foreign income (in addition to the 1099-DIV form). These are posted for 2014 --> 2019 and I would have to look into paper records to check before 2014. They have also mailed a hard copy of this every year. I am on old MF platform if that makes a difference. I have no clue why I've been receiving and you're having to use "% method". This is the first time I'm having to figure it out and initially I just assumed it would be late like the 1099 data for Emerging Mkts but no, it apparently has been discontinued.

Just for fun, I looked up the 2019 Tot Intl. to tie out nums to Palanzo and I got 98.73899%
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beyou
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by beyou »

Wow, spoiled folk. I haven’t even gotten the 1099-DIV for my FTSE exUS index yet. I would be happy to get just the tax paid at this point.
Random Poster
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Random Poster »

beyou wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:05 pm Wow, spoiled folk. I haven’t even gotten the 1099-DIV for my FTSE exUS index yet. I would be happy to get just the tax paid at this point.
Hmmm.

Vanguard posted a new 1099-DIV on February 9 for my mutual fund account, which included the numbers for Vanguard’s FTSE All-World ex-US Fund.
livesoft
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by livesoft »

dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:03 pmTo answer your question, YES, if I go to my VG home page and Tax Center, I find the "Foreign tax paid" form that lists in dollar amounts the foreign income and QDI foreign income (in addition to the 1099-DIV form). These are posted for 2014 --> 2019 and I would have to look into paper records to check before 2014. They have also mailed a hard copy of this every year.
Thanks!
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

livesoft wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:27 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:21 pmI calculated column 4 for 2019 for Total International: 98.73870%.

The historical "percentage sheets" indicate 98.74128%.

Thank you livesoft for providing a link to the historical data.

Any idea why the discrepancy? Do you think that the 2020 sheet which states 100.00000% should be believed?
Do not believe in false precision. 98.74% is the same as 98.74%.

Yes, I believe 100% is 100%. Think about it this way: For a tax return where numbers are usually rounded to the nearest dollar anyways, how much of VTIAX, or VEA or any other fund would one have to own to make a $1 change in any number reported on Form 1116? $2 million? $12 billion?

BTW, you can play with precision yourself. Try change the dollar amount of the foreign tax you paid by 1 cent. What are the resulting numbers and their change when going from -1 cent to 0 cent to +1 cent delta. Do the same for changing the share amounts: 101.234 share to 101.233 shares to 1010.235 shares. Play to your heart's content.

(And don't forget that 1 cent is a bigger percentage of $1,000 than it is of $100,000 and also that 0.001 share is a bigger percentage of 100 shares than it is of 10,000 shares.)
I would never quote number to 5 decimal places. Vanguard is doing this.

Nowhere near $2 million. If the factor is not 1.00000 but 0.9873870 then $80 in dividends will change the foreign income by $1.00. And $14 in dividends would change the foreign tax by $1.00.

All that said I am going to accept Total International at 100% and file my taxes.

It is very disappointing that Vanguard has decided not to provide this tax information to mutual fund account holders and it is providing the data on the consolidated statement for brokerage account holders.
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palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm
grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
I guess since I was the one that came up with the algorithm it seemed to me VG is using I'll make a comment. I was provided the old foreign tax paid form until this year so this % table thing is new to me.

I have three funds impacted, LStratMod, Tot International and Emerging:

For LStratMod, working from left to right (and noting that the starting is not box 1a from 1099-Div), I get the foreign tax paid number in agreement with 1099-Div. Using this number I calc the foreign income needed for form 1116. Then I calculated column 4 using the equation I had listed earlier above and got 38.323% vs. the VG number of 38.326%.

For Total International, following same procedure, I calculated a column 4 of 100.007% vs. the 100% to five place VG provided.

For Emerging, following same, I get a column 4 of 99.85% vs. the 100% to five places VG provided. Unless things clear up quickly, I'll probably just take the conservative path as it is only a couple dollars and won't fail a computer match as I don't believe the foreign income gets reported to IRS as others numbers do.

I haven't gone back to my 2019 Foreign income sheet VG provided and dug up the equivalent table of percentages as it seems others are working that angle.

Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
For clarity can you post the algorithm that you used that generally agreed with the Vanguard percentages?
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

livesoft wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:29 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
"use to be provided" was at least after 2015. In 2015 and before, one had to calculate the actual foreign income from the same information given about tax year 2020. I suspect that many people do not remember all this because their foreign tax credit was below the amount required to file a Form 1116, so they just took the credit without needing to know the actual foreign income.

Anyways, if you want your brokerage firm to report the foreign income and the foreign qualified dividend income in dollar amounts with no calculations needed, then I suggest you switch to WellsFargo or TDAmeritrade both of which I know give these numbers directly for Vanguard products for tax year 2020 (and for earlier tax years, too).
I would settle for a clear and unambiguous statement from Vanguard as to how Foreign Income should be calculated from the data they provide in 2020.

Switching to Charles Schwab or Fidelity is a serious consideration now. I need to do due diligence on both and also understand what they provide at tax time.
nalor511
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by nalor511 »

They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:39 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:26 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:01 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
Is this what you want?

January 21, 2021
2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... 012021.pdf
Use this worksheet to assist with the preparation of IRS Form 1116: Foreign Tax Credit.

January 26, 2021
ICI 2020 Secondary layout spreadsheet
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This file lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains. It provides breakdowns for foreign-source income, threshold requirements for exempt-interest income, and percentages of income from different states.

February 10, 2021
ICI revised 2020 Primary layout spreadsheet (with REIT finals)
https://advisors.vanguard.com/iwe/pdf/t ... Layout.xls
This updated file includes final figures for Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund. It lists all Vanguard funds and share classes with 2020 distributions and capital gains as well as their corresponding dates. The file includes breakdowns for foreign-tax paid, qualified income, exempt-interest dividends, and Alternative Minimum Tax percentages.
Thank you for the reply.

I have the 2020 Foreign tax credit worksheet for eligible Vanguard funds. If you see my post above what is missing is how to calculate the Foreign Income that used to be provided in dollars and cents on the Foreign Tax Paid statement.

The two formulas proposed are not correct as can be seen by using the numbers from 2019 when all the data was provided by Vanguard.
The "Secondary Layout" has a column:
6 Foreign Source Income: % of Box 1a, Col. 17 on Primary Layout

in the Primary layout:

17 Box 1a Total Ordinary Dividends (14+15+16)

(this is the sum of Income dividends, short term capital gains and foreign tax paid)

what fund? and who said Vanguards 2019 numbers are correct?
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this.

I looked at the spreadsheets. Thank you for the guidance.

So Foreign Source Income dollar amount = % of Box 1a, Col. 17 on Primary Layout * Box 1a dollar amount. And for Total International in 2020 this is 100.00000% of Box 1a.

Do you agree?

Column 4 of the PDF is labelled "Foreign income % for this fund". If they had made it clear that they are referring to the Box 1a amount it would have been so simple. Instead people were guessing it could be:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

which is definitely NOT correct.

This is for Total International.

I had hoped that Vanguard's numbers for 2019 were correct but at this point I have little confidence in that.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm
grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
I guess since I was the one that came up with the algorithm it seemed to me VG is using I'll make a comment. I was provided the old foreign tax paid form until this year so this % table thing is new to me.

I have three funds impacted, LStratMod, Tot International and Emerging:

For LStratMod, working from left to right (and noting that the starting is not box 1a from 1099-Div), I get the foreign tax paid number in agreement with 1099-Div. Using this number I calc the foreign income needed for form 1116. Then I calculated column 4 using the equation I had listed earlier above and got 38.323% vs. the VG number of 38.326%.

For Total International, following same procedure, I calculated a column 4 of 100.007% vs. the 100% to five place VG provided.

For Emerging, following same, I get a column 4 of 99.85% vs. the 100% to five places VG provided. Unless things clear up quickly, I'll probably just take the conservative path as it is only a couple dollars and won't fail a computer match as I don't believe the foreign income gets reported to IRS as others numbers do.

I haven't gone back to my 2019 Foreign income sheet VG provided and dug up the equivalent table of percentages as it seems others are working that angle.

Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
See my most recent post.

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

Is NOT correct according to the various Vanguard spreadsheets.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Yes. That was confirmed by Vanguard today. This does not help me for 2020 though.

I am very disappointed that Vanguard is providing this tax information for brokerage accounts but not for mutual fund accounts. Very disappointing. What's next? You can't withdraw your money from a mutual fund account but have to mail a USPS letter and ask for a check? No rebalancing allowed?

I may switch now but to Schwab or Fidelity.

Playing games like this with people's tax information is unacceptable to me. I've wasted much of today on this. I do thank the people who posted. I hope this will help others here derive the information needed to file their taxes.
nalor511
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by nalor511 »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Yes. That was confirmed by Vanguard today. This does not help me for 2020 though.

I am very disappointed that Vanguard is providing this tax information for brokerage accounts but not for mutual fund accounts. Very disappointing. What's next? You can't withdraw your money from a mutual fund account but have to mail a USPS letter and ask for a check? No rebalancing allowed?

I may switch now but to Schwab or Fidelity.

Playing games like this with people's tax information is unacceptable to me. I've wasted much of today on this. I do thank the people who posted. I hope this will help others here derive the information needed to file their taxes.
None of what you said would surprise me all that much. Switch to Fido or Schwab if you want.

I switched from MF to Brokerage Jan 1, and it's literally caused me no issues. Way more stressful to switch to another brokerage, I'd think. But yeah, if that makes you more comfortable, there's your answer

I don't think they're playing games, I think this is what they mean when they say they'll stop supporting the MF platform - bunch of little things will just slowly drop off and not be available, little by little.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:15 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Yes. That was confirmed by Vanguard today. This does not help me for 2020 though.

I am very disappointed that Vanguard is providing this tax information for brokerage accounts but not for mutual fund accounts. Very disappointing. What's next? You can't withdraw your money from a mutual fund account but have to mail a USPS letter and ask for a check? No rebalancing allowed?

I may switch now but to Schwab or Fidelity.

Playing games like this with people's tax information is unacceptable to me. I've wasted much of today on this. I do thank the people who posted. I hope this will help others here derive the information needed to file their taxes.
None of what you said would surprise me all that much. Switch to Fido or Schwab if you want.

I switched from MF to Brokerage Jan 1, and it's literally caused me no issues. Way more stressful to switch to another brokerage, I'd think. But yeah, if that makes you more comfortable, there's your answer

I don't think they're playing games, I think this is what they mean when they say they'll stop supporting the MF platform - bunch of little things will just slowly drop off and not be available, little by little.
I don't disagree with you. If Vanguard had emailed those concerned and told them they would not be providing tax information for mutual fund accounts and would be providing that information for brokerage account then people could plan.

But no information was provided. I personally feel this borders on the unethical.
Random Poster
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Random Poster »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Yes. That was confirmed by Vanguard today. This does not help me for 2020 though.

I am very disappointed that Vanguard is providing this tax information for brokerage accounts but not for mutual fund accounts. Very disappointing. What's next? You can't withdraw your money from a mutual fund account but have to mail a USPS letter and ask for a check? No rebalancing allowed?

I may switch now but to Schwab or Fidelity.

Playing games like this with people's tax information is unacceptable to me. I've wasted much of today on this. I do thank the people who posted. I hope this will help others here derive the information needed to file their taxes.
I agree with your sentiments and add this comment:

Brokerage account owners don’t pay lower amounts for holding the same Vanguard mutual funds that a mutual fund account owner holds, do they?

If not, then as a mutual fund account owner I’m paying the same as a brokerage account owner who owns the same funds that I do, but getting less service. And if the brokerage account owner holds the exact same number of shares in the exact same funds that I do (which I suspect at least one of them does), then it costs Vanguard nothing to provide the tax information to me that it is already providing to the brokerage account owner.

In which case, Vanguard is simply not providing the tax information to the mutual fund account owners out of spite. Not to save any money, not to pass on any lower costs, not because they can’t. Simply because they won’t.

How’s that for customer service?

Call me old fashioned, but I’d like to feel good and comfortable about the company where I’ve got millions of dollars. At the moment, I certainly don’t and can’t see why anyone (including me) wants to stay with Vanguard. I definitely regret ever recommending them to anyone.
dkarst
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by dkarst »

palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm
dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm
grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
I guess since I was the one that came up with the algorithm it seemed to me VG is using I'll make a comment. I was provided the old foreign tax paid form until this year so this % table thing is new to me.

I have three funds impacted, LStratMod, Tot International and Emerging:

For LStratMod, working from left to right (and noting that the starting is not box 1a from 1099-Div), I get the foreign tax paid number in agreement with 1099-Div. Using this number I calc the foreign income needed for form 1116. Then I calculated column 4 using the equation I had listed earlier above and got 38.323% vs. the VG number of 38.326%.

For Total International, following same procedure, I calculated a column 4 of 100.007% vs. the 100% to five place VG provided.

For Emerging, following same, I get a column 4 of 99.85% vs. the 100% to five places VG provided. Unless things clear up quickly, I'll probably just take the conservative path as it is only a couple dollars and won't fail a computer match as I don't believe the foreign income gets reported to IRS as others numbers do.

I haven't gone back to my 2019 Foreign income sheet VG provided and dug up the equivalent table of percentages as it seems others are working that angle.

Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
For clarity can you post the algorithm that you used that generally agreed with the Vanguard percentages?
The "algorithm" is just the part you listed in your post after "I don't think that:"

I guess I have shown above for me using TotIntl, my column 4% is 100.007% vs. the 100 to 5 places VG shows. I have not and don't plan to open spreadsheets and grind away any more on this or investigate previous years. I am simply using the pdf file that I guess is similar to the information provided to others in the past, even though both of us have received the "Foreign tax paid" form in the past that has the necessary information. As I noted, my col 4 % agreed with yours for 2019.

I'm disappointing as well in Vanguard's communication or lack thereof on this and not sure if it is just the start of the "clients on the old mutual fund platforms may notice some issues"?

Thanks for everyone's contributions on this issue.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
I said the same. It no longer appears in this thread. Oops!

Posters in this thread seriously think Vanguard's motivations are spite? This isn't Curb Your Enthusiasm.

They've been telegraphing their intent for YEARS now. There have been countless threads exploring the minutiae of the platform change. If you would switch to the supported platform, the gripes would be much more legitimate.

I don't take pleasure in someone else's misfortune, and I too would be frustrated if I didn't have what was needed to file taxes, but I also tend to be somewhat introspective and would question what I could have done to avoid an unpleasant situation. AKA victim blaming? Perhaps. . . Unclear to me what it would take to make mutual fund holdouts happy. I guess if nothing were to change, but this isn't reality, as is already demonstrably true.
Last edited by Cheez-It Guy on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Random Poster wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:29 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
Yes. That was confirmed by Vanguard today. This does not help me for 2020 though.

I am very disappointed that Vanguard is providing this tax information for brokerage accounts but not for mutual fund accounts. Very disappointing. What's next? You can't withdraw your money from a mutual fund account but have to mail a USPS letter and ask for a check? No rebalancing allowed?

I may switch now but to Schwab or Fidelity.

Playing games like this with people's tax information is unacceptable to me. I've wasted much of today on this. I do thank the people who posted. I hope this will help others here derive the information needed to file their taxes.
I agree with your sentiments and add this comment:

Brokerage account owners don’t pay lower amounts for holding the same Vanguard mutual funds that a mutual fund account owner holds, do they?

If not, then as a mutual fund account owner I’m paying the same as a brokerage account owner who owns the same funds that I do, but getting less service. And if the brokerage account owner holds the exact same number of shares in the exact same funds that I do (which I suspect at least one of them does), then it costs Vanguard nothing to provide the tax information to me that it is already providing to the brokerage account owner.

In which case, Vanguard is simply not providing the tax information to the mutual fund account owners out of spite. Not to save any money, not to pass on any lower costs, not because they can’t. Simply because they won’t.

How’s that for customer service?

Call me old fashioned, but I’d like to feel good and comfortable about the company where I’ve got millions of dollars. At the moment, I certainly don’t and can’t see why anyone (including me) wants to stay with Vanguard. I definitely regret ever recommending them to anyone.
I completely agree with you Random Poster and I feel exactly the same way. I made the same points above to my Vanguard representative today and privately that person agreed with me.

I have recommended Vanguard over many years to friends and colleagues and all of them moved to Vanguard. I regret doing that now.

This is a very sad state of affairs. The question now is what to do going forward.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:34 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm
dkarst wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:56 pm
grok87 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 am yikes. this is bad news
Yes it is.

I don't think that:

foreign income % (rightmost column) for the fund is = Foreign income / (dividends you rec'd + foreign tax)

is correct. This equation was suggested in the other thread.

Using the numbers from 2019 where Vanguard provided a Foreign Tax Paid statement shows this is not correct.

So we are back to square one. In 2020 how does one calculate the Foreign Income when it seems Vanguard does not provide sufficient information?
I guess since I was the one that came up with the algorithm it seemed to me VG is using I'll make a comment. I was provided the old foreign tax paid form until this year so this % table thing is new to me.

I have three funds impacted, LStratMod, Tot International and Emerging:

For LStratMod, working from left to right (and noting that the starting is not box 1a from 1099-Div), I get the foreign tax paid number in agreement with 1099-Div. Using this number I calc the foreign income needed for form 1116. Then I calculated column 4 using the equation I had listed earlier above and got 38.323% vs. the VG number of 38.326%.

For Total International, following same procedure, I calculated a column 4 of 100.007% vs. the 100% to five place VG provided.

For Emerging, following same, I get a column 4 of 99.85% vs. the 100% to five places VG provided. Unless things clear up quickly, I'll probably just take the conservative path as it is only a couple dollars and won't fail a computer match as I don't believe the foreign income gets reported to IRS as others numbers do.

I haven't gone back to my 2019 Foreign income sheet VG provided and dug up the equivalent table of percentages as it seems others are working that angle.

Since I think Livesoft posted the 2015 percentage sheet back in first page and I had my 2015 Foreign tax paid sheet handy, I calculated column 4 at 99.994% vs. the text in that post of 100% (with unknown precision).
For clarity can you post the algorithm that you used that generally agreed with the Vanguard percentages?
The "algorithm" is just the part you listed in your post after "I don't think that:"

I guess I have shown above for me using TotIntl, my column 4% is 100.007% vs. the 100 to 5 places VG shows. I have not and don't plan to open spreadsheets and grind away any more on this or investigate previous years. I am simply using the pdf file that I guess is similar to the information provided to others in the past, even though both of us have received the "Foreign tax paid" form in the past that has the necessary information. As I noted, my col 4 % agreed with yours for 2019.

I'm disappointing as well in Vanguard's communication or lack thereof on this and not sure if it is just the start of the "clients on the old mutual fund platforms may notice some issues"?

Thanks for everyone's contributions on this issue.
The algorithm is not correct. I want to say that so others don't use it. The formula from the spreadsheets is as I posted above i.e. col 4 % * dividends in Box 1a = Foreign income.
Makefile
Posts: 713
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Makefile »

I think people are trying to do this calculation in a more difficult way than necessary?

Your 1099-DIV shows "foreign tax paid."
Multiply that by the SECOND numeric column in the foreign tax credit worksheet - "Foreign income = total foreign tax X"
That will help you determine what goes on Form 1116.

Do not try to use the first numeric column, "Foreign tax = income dividend X". Box 1a of your 1099-DIV already includes the foreign tax. So this is a circular calculation.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 pm
nalor511 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:41 pm They want you to switch to a brokerage . Then you'll get it .
I said the same. It no longer appears in this thread. Oops!

Posters in this thread seriously think Vanguard's motivations are spite? This isn't Curb Your Enthusiasm.

They've been telegraphing their intent for YEARS now. There have been countless threads exploring the minutiae of the platform change. If you would switch to the supported platform, the gripes would be much more legitimate.

I don't take pleasure in someone else's misfortune, and I too would be frustrated if I didn't have what was needed to file taxes, but I also tend to be somewhat introspective and would question what I could have done to avoid an unpleasant situation. AKA victim blaming? Perhaps. . . Unclear to me what it would take to make mutual fund holdouts happy. I guess if nothing were to change, but this isn't reality, as is already demonstrably true.
When did they announce that they would not provide accurate tax data? This could also be a violation of tax or business law. You are taking pleasure in other people's misfortune. If you were not you would post something helpful like all the other poster's have today.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Makefile wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:56 pm I think people are trying to do this calculation in a more difficult way than necessary?

Your 1099-DIV shows "foreign tax paid."
Multiply that by the SECOND numeric column in the foreign tax credit worksheet - "Foreign income = total foreign tax X"
That will help you determine what goes on Form 1116.

Do not try to use the first numeric column, "Foreign tax = income dividend X". Box 1a of your 1099-DIV already includes the foreign tax. So this is a circular calculation.
Having gone through the spreadsheets today I agree this is simpler. Begs the question why column 4 is there.
Random Poster
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Random Poster »

Makefile wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:56 pm I think people are trying to do this calculation in a more difficult way than necessary?

Your 1099-DIV shows "foreign tax paid."
Multiply that by the SECOND numeric column in the foreign tax credit worksheet - "Foreign income = total foreign tax X"
That will help you determine what goes on Form 1116.

Do not try to use the first numeric column, "Foreign tax = income dividend X". Box 1a of your 1099-DIV already includes the foreign tax. So this is a circular calculation.

I think that you need to use the third column too if you have to adjust the foreign source dividends.
Topic Author
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by palanzo »

Random Poster wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:03 pm
Makefile wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:56 pm I think people are trying to do this calculation in a more difficult way than necessary?

Your 1099-DIV shows "foreign tax paid."
Multiply that by the SECOND numeric column in the foreign tax credit worksheet - "Foreign income = total foreign tax X"
That will help you determine what goes on Form 1116.

Do not try to use the first numeric column, "Foreign tax = income dividend X". Box 1a of your 1099-DIV already includes the foreign tax. So this is a circular calculation.

I think that you need to use the third column too if you have to adjust the foreign source dividends.
Do you know under what conditions one needs to adjust the foreign source dividends?
Makefile
Posts: 713
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:03 pm

Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Makefile »

Random Poster wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:03 pm
Makefile wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:56 pm I think people are trying to do this calculation in a more difficult way than necessary?

Your 1099-DIV shows "foreign tax paid."
Multiply that by the SECOND numeric column in the foreign tax credit worksheet - "Foreign income = total foreign tax X"
That will help you determine what goes on Form 1116.

Do not try to use the first numeric column, "Foreign tax = income dividend X". Box 1a of your 1099-DIV already includes the foreign tax. So this is a circular calculation.

I think that you need to use the third column too if you have to adjust the foreign source dividends.
Yeah, I think you're right.

But in any case, the issue is that "income dividend" which the "Foreign tax = income dividend X" column of the foreign tax worksheet tells you to multiply by, does not mean Box 1a of your 1099-DIV. If you add up the four quarterly dividends you received you will find that it falls short of Box 1a. I believe the reason is that Box 1a also has the foreign tax added in to it already. As a test, I added up my Total International dividends recorded on my statements for last year and multiplied by that column on the foreign tax worksheet, and the tax paid matched.

So long as you only use the worksheet columns that tell you to multiply by "foreign tax paid" you should be fine.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

I'm suggesting a change in approach, not taking pleasure. When do users take individual responsibility for failing to follow the increasingly vocal and persistent recommendations of their chosen service provider? Ignoring a perceived inconvenience has now led to greater inconvenience.

OK, how's this?

Did you by chance hold a fixed number of shares in the relevant fund(s) all year? Did you opt not to reinvest dividends? If so, you should be able to find someone on here with the same answers and the same holding(s) who is on the brokerage platform. If they will disclose their number of shares and the relevant entries from their consolidated 1099, then you should be able to calculate yours with a simple ratio based on the number of shares.
Last edited by Cheez-It Guy on Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Random Poster
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Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by Random Poster »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 pm
Posters in this thread seriously think Vanguard's motivations are spite? This isn't Curb Your Enthusiasm.

They've been telegraphing their intent for YEARS now. There have been countless threads exploring the minutiae of the platform change. If you would switch to the supported platform, the gripes would be much more legitimate.

I don't take pleasure in someone else's misfortune, and I too would be frustrated if I didn't have what was needed to file taxes, but I also tend to be somewhat introspective and would question what I could have done to avoid an unpleasant situation. AKA victim blaming? Perhaps. . . Unclear to me what it would take to make mutual fund holdouts happy. I guess if nothing were to change, but this isn't reality, as is already demonstrably true.
Yeah, I guess I could switch to the brokerage account platform, but then I’d lose the ability (that I currently have on the mutual fund platform) to have dividends reinvested in a different fund.

So I guess by changing I lose something, and by staying I lose something (a foreign tax paid statement).

Which “loss” is acceptable?

Or, more pointedly, why should there be any loss at all?
000
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Vanguard no longer providing a Foreign Tax Paid statement

Post by 000 »

Random Poster wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:08 pm Yeah, I guess I could switch to the brokerage account platform, but then I’d lose the ability (that I currently have on the mutual fund platform) to have dividends reinvested in a different fund.

So I guess by changing I lose something, and by staying I lose something (a foreign tax paid statement).

Which “loss” is acceptable?

Or, more pointedly, why should there be any loss at all?
Vanguard needs to be a brokerage to survive, and they also need to not have to maintain two platforms to survive.

That still leaves the question why they can't better integrate old features in.
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