YOLO vs BH

[JoeRetire]

You think you will be physically decrepit at 55? I find that sad.

Heh. In my 20s, I thought 50 was super old - literally, one foot in the grave. Now that I'm in my 50s, I find that I feel pretty good. Other than all the aches and pains from a sporting youth, I don't feel much different from when I was 30 or so. Now, 50 doesn't seem old, but 75 does....

I remember hearing "live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse" a long time ago.

Make the most of your life at every age. You will live with no regrets.

[hudson]

OP, this is a reprint of a post of mine from 2015. I hope you find it relevant to your dilemma (especially given the pandemic wake-up call of 2020):

by protagonist » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:39 am

I'm 63. Last week I had a heart attack on the way to the airport to play music abroad.

I'm 6'1" and I weigh 162. I workout regularly (rode 30 miles on my bike the day before the incident). My blood pressure has never been above 110/70. My total cholesterol is 190 with a high HDL fraction, which puts me in the low risk category. No significant family history. I never smoked. No diabetes, substance abuse, or other medical problems. Nobody I know would call me a "Type A personality". My doctor told me I have the body of a 35 year old. My only risk factor (not at all insignificant) is being male.

I was fortunate (for a healthy 63 y o guy who has a heart attack)....it was a relatively minor incident, I got prompt care and now have a stent in my circumflex artery.

Though my profession was inherently stressful (physician), I have always approached my work on my own terms, and never compromised my lifestyle for the sake of making more money, working jobs or moving places I did not enjoy, or for empty titles/prestige. My priorities were my family, living where I want to live, having enough time off to pursue my other interests, enjoying my work, and creating my own schedule. This did not come without risks (comical compared to the risks that others have just by virtue of their birthright), but in the long run, the risks were worth it, as I feel like I have lived a very rich life. I was never drawn to an extravagant lifestyle (fancy cars, clothes, whatever), but I lived well, and never felt wanting of anything I did not have. I made enough money. I could have made a lot more if I was willing to compromise my day-to-day life, but I didn't need any more.

My most valuable possession (other than my lovely "middle class" 1885 Victorian home in a very cool college town) is my tenor saxophone. I bought it about 10 years ago for $7000. It's probably worth close to $20K today, Even at $7K it would be my most valuable possession. It's worth a lot more than my car.

(By American standards, I have always been under-insured. I figured that the chances of my kids inheriting more money was greater that way, and I am pretty sure I was right.)

I was fortunate to be born in the mid-20th century as a relatively intelligent white American male during one of the greatest growth periods in the history of civilization, so, despite not having affluent parents and living a hippie lifestyle throughout the late 60s and 70s with no concern whatsoever for money, and putting myself through med school later in life, I did OK. In my demographic it was hard not to do OK.

I made money. Money didn't make me.

I retired in 2008 at 55, right before the crash. The crash (and divorce) took a big hit out of my savings, which caused me some worry about the future, but (as was reinforced yet again last week), the future is chaotic, so I figured what would happen would happen anyway. My savings came back with the market. I'm not filthy rich, but I'm comfortable, and I am not worried about money. I don't budget but I don't spend all that much and I live well. I probably won't run out, but anything can happen to any of us.

I could have panicked in 2008 and went back to work, delaying retirement until 65 or later. I would then be more secure about my money not running out when I hit 95. The last thing I ever thought would happen to me was a heart attack at 63. I could just as easily have died with all my toys unused last week. When I asked my cardiologist how often he sees people in my shape in their 40s, 50s and 60s have heart attacks, he said it is "much more common than you think". 25% or so present in cardiac arrest.

Why am I sharing this with this community? I feel like I might be able to help some folks out there with my story.

I'm usually a rather private person (other than here, only a few of my closest friends know what happened to me). But, in the time that I have frequented this forum, I feel that there is a significant segment of people who post here who, IMHO, are overly obsessed with making money and planning for a future that they cannot control. You can spend your life from age 18 predominantly dedicated to making sure you don't run out of money when you are 100. You can postpone joy indefinitely and just hope you are healthy enough down the road to enjoy your bundle. Or you can live the way you want to live today, staying well within your means, try to save if you can, enjoy your life, just not sweat it....knowing you might run out of money at 95, but on the other hand you might die at 40 or 50 or 60 or tomorrow, and some things just cannot be controlled.

You can do everything possible to avoid the inevitable or you can just live and take your chances. You might not realize it, but either way, you are gambling. Which gamble is more enjoyable?

It seemed like Jim Fixx, in his book, said that jogging/running would immunize one against heart attacks. We know that he was wrong. Your story reinforces the idea that there are no guarantees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

[JoeRetire]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

You mean other than living out the remainder your life as poor on public assistance? Do you actually think anyone aspires to such a life?

[Stubbie]

OP, this is a reprint of a post of mine from 2015. I hope you find it relevant to your dilemma (especially given the pandemic wake-up call of 2020):
by protagonist » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:39 am
I'm 63. Last week I had a heart attack on the way to the airport to play music abroad.
You can do everything possible to avoid the inevitable or you can just live and take your chances. You might not realize it, but either way, you are gambling. Which gamble is more enjoyable?

Loved reading this again. Thanks for reposting it.
The year of Covid has definitely been a wakeup call for many. The best laid plans can easily be totally disrupted by something totally out of the blue.

[RJC]

You have to know when you have "enough". Some people save so much they don't know how to let go.

[heartwood]

I googled YOLO yesterday because I had no idea. 12 hrs later I forgot what it is supposed to imply. I won't re-google it.

Please write it out in the title.

[London]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

You mean other than living out the remainder your life as poor on public assistance? Do you actually think anyone aspires to such a life?

You can live off social security in many areas of the US and have a perfectly fine life. Plus, in my example, you have the cash from all the loans/CC you took out and never paid back. The bogeyman of aging/dying poor isn’t a huge hassle in the US. Sure, you can’t do some of the extra things, but you could also die at any point.

[JoeRetire]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

You mean other than living out the remainder your life as poor on public assistance? Do you actually think anyone aspires to such a life?

You can live off social security in many areas of the US and have a perfectly fine life. Plus, in my example, you have the cash from all the loans/CC you took out and never paid back. The bogeyman of aging/dying poor isn’t a huge hassle in the US. Sure, you can’t do some of the extra things, but you could also die at any point.

I guess we have a different idea of what "a perfectly fine life" and "isn't a huge hassle" mean. Oh well.

[TxAg]

I never understood why people say they feel old in their 40s.

Drink 2 bottles of wine and stay up until 6 AM and let us know how long it takes for you to recover compared to a 25 year old

Hahah that gave me a good laugh. It definitely hurts more these days.

[EnjoyIt]

Free time can be expensive. My dad used to say "the best way to save a lot of money is to work all the time so you have no time to spend it".

If you are going to loosen your purse strings, my advice is be thoughtful and do it slowly. If you go to fast to quickly, you won't ge the chance to enjoy it and will accustomed to your new lifestyle in no time. I'm not sure how much you make or your expenses, but for example, bump up spending by a few thousand next year and do something different. I'm not talking about buying some useless crap. But consider maybe an extra vacation, or maybe hiring someone to do things you don't like such as yard work or house cleaning so that you have more free time with your family. Maybe pay for a class or an experience in your own neighborhood. Do mindful upgrades as opposed to mindless consumerism as the later won't make you much happier but definitely will make you poorer.

For us, the biggest lifestyle upgrade we made was going part time before we were financially independent. We did it for the extra free time each week. Considering our incomes, these extra free days are very very expensive, but I would never give them up. I would rather spend less then be asked to work on those days. I would rather retire than to give up my long weekends every week. It took us a few years longer to reach financial independence, but we enjoyed the ride more.

You got that right. I remember as a resident working 80-100 hours a week for my first year. All I did was sleep, eat and work during those stretches. Although I made a little under $50k a year, cash would just pile up as I had no time to spend it. When I finally got my week off that cash was just burning a hole in my pocket. It was like it was building kinetic energy waiting to be released like a geyser.

[GregG3]

OP, I think your fears of fifties are a bit overblown.

I have been reasonably active throughout my life. In my teens I enjoyed playing soccer, running, cycling. I kept running throughout my twenties, thirties and forties. When I was in my forties I was fascinated by running long distances but I did not have enough discipline to properly train for a marathon.

I finally decided to do it when I was in my early fifties. By mid-fifties I completed several international marathons. After nearly 40 years I took up again cycling. Now in my early sixties I enjoy immensely indoor and outdoor cycling and keep clocking around 8,000 to 12,000 miles/year for the last several years.

I do not subscribe to the idea that enjoyable and active lifestyle has an 'expiration date'.

I think the question you should ask yourself is more about the balance between financial needs for the current lifestyle vs. intended future lifestyle.
Living in the 'NOW' is essential but I didn't notice that the 'NOW' in my 40-ties and 50-ties were that much different

[MichiganNurse]

Michigan nurse can you share an example of a flow video. Total novice here. Also, how many miles do you typically walk. Similar age but never have felt worse. Big time pain in back and joints from remote teaching from sitting all day.

Hey! "Manflow" yoga on youtube is my favorite. He has dozens of quick, beginner work outs. I also like DDPY (Diamond Dallas Page Yoga, yes the former wrestler.) but most of his workouts are part of a paid subscription. Just putting in a search of "Yoga Flow" will give you more free options than you will ever be able to complete. I'm a total novice even after 5 years of it but it has increased my flexibility and is a great workout for back health.

I have a repetitive 7.2 mile walk I like to walk through the woods of my local metro park. I use the map-my-run app on my phone. I also have stretches of days off of work so a 2 hour walk fits in on those days pretty easy. Remote teaching....I do not envy doing that. Thanks for your efforts.

[New Providence]

Find what you guys really enjoy and prioritize it. Don't go all the time by what others like or don't like, suggest or recommend in terms of what's valuable. Don't live a life full of constrains hoping that being old with a fat bank account is nirvana. Accumulation for accumulation sake is weird to me. There has to be a purpose.

Some people say streaming services are a waste of money. Why would I care about that opinion? That's something very personal. I very much enjoy my subscriptions to Netflix, Disney+ and HBOMAX.

I'm not a car person. Of all my friends I'm the one with the oldest car and won't buy a new one. And so on and so forth.

I work very hard and am not going to waste my money. But I'm also not going to deprive myself of living a comfortable life.

[Shallowpockets]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

[whodidntante]

I've always preferred to focus on the income side of the equation. I would not be insolvent if I earned 50k per year, but I also wouldn't max all my tax-advantaged accounts at that level of income. And I definitely mean no offense to anyone earning 50k per year; I did so myself at one time. At times I have taken huge risks in my career and business, the kind of risks that can get you a banker's box for your stuff and a letter informing you of your COBRA rights. It worked out and helped me jump levels beyond my own expectations, but other outcomes were possible. I feel lucky and I'm hoping my luck doesn't run out.

Spending wise, I mainly try to avoid gigantic errors. I have a strong aversion to living in places where a basic, unimpressive house costs over a million bucks. I've only bought one new car in my life. While I otherwise spend freely, I do not like paying much more than I need to have a good time. I don't even like spending $100/pp on dinner. I like vacations in low-cost countries just as well and in some ways better than my visits to the most expensive cities on Earth.

[whodidntante]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

[DetroitRick]

No matter your age, I think this stuff is always a balancing act. Good for you, your thought process sounds very reasonable.

Throughout my own life, I've varied my balance between present and future. Never going all-in on either. I think I've been blessed by having friends at both extremes - some cautionary tales teaching me to tread that middle ground. I have always paid close attention to financial details, but not to a degree that would cause deathbed regrets. I'll take the experiences, memories and enjoyment over anything. But I can still do that, loosening and tightening on occasion, toward a reasonable balance. Which makes me fortunate.

Definitely would engage in activities now that important to me that would be more difficult later. On the brighter side, while I can feel the difference from mid 30's to my current age of 65 (next month), I'll also say that I am in better shape than I was at 50. Tomorrow - who knows? I also remember running my second marathon (just under age 40), struggling more than I should, and seeing a very elderly man pass me (had to be north of 70) at the 20 mile mark. Inspired me to finish. But yes, I would recognize there are some things more difficult to do later and do them now if important to me. Those memories can last a lifetime.

Hope you find your own best balance.

[spammagnet]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

Let’s say you choose to live as if you will die at 70. You can change your withdrawal rate to ensure you will run out of money by that date. Leading up to your birthday you can take out loans and the day before your birthday you can max out your credit cards. Depending on what state you live in, you will have almost no issues if you fail to pay that back. The courts will not force an “elderly” person to live in the streets. Public assistance will still be made available to you, as will healthcare. Everyone will forget that this predicament is entirely of your own making and you will be looked at as a sympathetic character. ...

You greatly exaggerate the support available in the US to those with no savings. I wouldn't even call it a safety net.

[stoptothink]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

I'm a former D1 football player who also was a pretty high-level competitive powerlifter and then did pretty well as a triathlete (after an injury ended my powerlifting career) in my mid-20's. Exercise was a major part of my education, my career, and the foundation of my life (and that of my wife and kids). I've exercised at least 5 days a week, literally every week, since I was 15. As of 2yrs ago (at age 37), I was still able to deadlift nearly 3x my bodyweight and run a <20min 5k. I've experience a massive decline in health over the last 2yrs: diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that nearly killed me (that is now pretty well controlled with meds), found out I had a fractured thoracic spine (and had summitted countless prominent peaks, literally with a broken back), and broken my wrist twice from very minor falls (my proprioception has decreased significantly, probably in part to the back). At this point, I can't lift anything without pain and my athletic endeavors are now mountaineering (single day summits of prominent peaks, some basic climbing, snowshoeing), as it's the only thing I can recover from and feel confident I can do without getting hurt. I now do yoga ~5 days a week and mix in some running, but I need a full 48hrs to recover from anything that remotely pushes my limits.

It's been quite difficult because my wife and kids have found a new love in jiu jitsu and muy thai, and I simply can't do it with them. In my 20's I had recoveries from knee surgery, a torn biceps, ruptured achilles, and a few other injuries that were almost miraculous; less than half the projected times and I was 100%. Now, I have a minor fall and likely to be out of commission (from anything but walking) for weeks. I'm very fortunate that I work in a medical facility, where access to top notch medical professionals, PT, chiro, etc. is literally a text message and a walk down the stairs from my office; don't know where I'd be without that. My biomarkers of cardiometabolic health and biological age are still very good, but I feel like I'm rapidly breaking down. We're all individuals, but it's crazy how my ability to physically recover has diminished as I approach 40.

[SantaClaraSurfer]

Save for vacations, adventures, meals, concerts, furniture, cars in advance.

If every dollar in net income already had dedicated Savings and Investing dollars pulled out (as well as any family and charitable contributions) then the balance that is sitting in your account has YOLO written all over it.

You can choose how to use those funds for yourself.

Your decision at age 35 will be different than at age 75, but so what! Enjoy both decades if you get 'em, nothing is guaranteed.

For myself, the most expensive (and ultimately least enjoyable) meals I ever had were the ones I put on credit in my 30's thinking...

YOLO.

[beernutz]

Living exclusively for the future can be as risky as living exclusively for the present.

I am as aligned with BH philosophy as can be.

Having said that, however, after I turned 40, I started realizing more and more that my physical abilities are slowly trending downwards. And my financial situation is trending upwards. As I see it, I will probably have a window of another 15 years (till I turn 55) where I will be able to use money for enjoyment for myself (physical activities). Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

Although I am not financially independent (FI) at the moment, I feel like I am on track. Barring any major disasters, we should likely be ok. So have been talking with my spouse lately about loosening up a bit.

I am assuming many others went through similar thoughts even though they were not FI. Would be nice to hear others who went through this.

PS. When I say YOLO, I don't mean spending every dollar coming in. I meant loosening up the purse strings a bit. Spending on things that I can do better when I am young.

What kind of boating do you do now that you won't be able to do in 15 years?

[oldfort]

Life doesn't end at 55. Lots of people in their 50s continue to ski, boat, and fly. You might not climb Everest in your 50s or ever, but there's a lot of ways to spend money which don't require you to be in peak physical fitness. You can spend money on a nice house, a fancy boat, luxury cars, five star hotels, first class plane tickets or a private jet, and high end restaurants forever.

[hoops777]

Do what makes you happy if you have the means.

[sailaway]

Living exclusively for the future can be as risky as living exclusively for the present.

I am as aligned with BH philosophy as can be.

Having said that, however, after I turned 40, I started realizing more and more that my physical abilities are slowly trending downwards. And my financial situation is trending upwards. As I see it, I will probably have a window of another 15 years (till I turn 55) where I will be able to use money for enjoyment for myself (physical activities). Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

Although I am not financially independent (FI) at the moment, I feel like I am on track. Barring any major disasters, we should likely be ok. So have been talking with my spouse lately about loosening up a bit.

I am assuming many others went through similar thoughts even though they were not FI. Would be nice to hear others who went through this.

PS. When I say YOLO, I don't mean spending every dollar coming in. I meant loosening up the purse strings a bit. Spending on things that I can do better when I am young.

What kind of boating do you do now that you won't be able to do in 15 years?

I want to know what kind of flying OP is doing, as well! My FIL did wheel to wheel racing into his 70s before he felt his reaction times were compromised and he needed a new hobby.

[novemberrain]

Living exclusively for the future can be as risky as living exclusively for the present.

I am as aligned with BH philosophy as can be.

Having said that, however, after I turned 40, I started realizing more and more that my physical abilities are slowly trending downwards. And my financial situation is trending upwards. As I see it, I will probably have a window of another 15 years (till I turn 55) where I will be able to use money for enjoyment for myself (physical activities). Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

Although I am not financially independent (FI) at the moment, I feel like I am on track. Barring any major disasters, we should likely be ok. So have been talking with my spouse lately about loosening up a bit.

I am assuming many others went through similar thoughts even though they were not FI. Would be nice to hear others who went through this.

PS. When I say YOLO, I don't mean spending every dollar coming in. I meant loosening up the purse strings a bit. Spending on things that I can do better when I am young.

What kind of boating do you do now that you won't be able to do in 15 years?

I want to know what kind of flying OP is doing, as well! My FIL did wheel to wheel racing into his 70s before he felt his reaction times were compromised and he needed a new hobby.

reg question about boating or flying, they were related to my shape. I am not in the best of shape (slightly overweight couch potato). I admit a 70 year old could be in much fitter shape than me.

And even though I am not in the best of shape, I too don't think 55 is the end of life. What I was alluding to is like what I said

with the same vigor as I can now

[novemberrain]

Life doesn't end at 55. Lots of people in their 50s continue to ski, boat, and fly. You might not climb Everest in your 50s or ever, but there's a lot of ways to spend money which don't require you to be in peak physical fitness. You can spend money on a nice house, a fancy boat, luxury cars, five star hotels, first class plane tickets or a private jet, and high end restaurants forever.

I edited my post to add that I am a couch potato

[Starfish]

I don't think is any dichotomy between YOLO and BH. BH is not MMM. It's an investing style (3 low cost funds) and not a lifestyle.
The most aggressive lifestyle advice you see here is LBYM but that is very loose. It's obvious, everybody should live like that, regardless of YOLO, BH or whatever.
I am in both camps of YOLO and BH. I spend money for things I want to do now, but I optimize them based on happiness per $ spent. I think the general advice to save money for 20 year olds it's terrible advice. For me time value is a very steep function, and money at 20 have a lot more value that at 30 or 40, and then again a lot more that at 70 or 80. I also what to FIRE because time is running out. It's mot easy to balance all these requirements, but if I try to optimize the value of my time/life I am definitely in the YOLO camp.

[phxjcc]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

I'm a former D1 football player who also was a pretty high-level competitive powerlifter and then did pretty well as a triathlete (after an injury ended my powerlifting career) in my mid-20's. Exercise was a major part of my education, my career, and the foundation of my life (and that of my wife and kids). I've exercised at least 5 days a week, literally every week, since I was 15. As of 2yrs ago (at age 37), I was still able to deadlift nearly 3x my bodyweight and run a <20min 5k. I've experience a massive decline in health over the last 2yrs: diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that nearly killed me (that is now pretty well controlled with meds), found out I had a fractured thoracic spine (and had summitted countless prominent peaks, literally with a broken back), and broken my wrist twice from very minor falls (my proprioception has decreased significantly, probably in part to the back). At this point, I can't lift anything without pain and my athletic endeavors are now mountaineering (single day summits of prominent peaks, some basic climbing, snowshoeing), as it's the only thing I can recover from and feel confident I can do without getting hurt. I now do yoga ~5 days a week and mix in some running, but I need a full 48hrs to recover from anything that remotely pushes my limits.

It's been quite difficult because my wife and kids have found a new love in jiu jitsu and muy thai, and I simply can't do it with them. In my 20's I had recoveries from knee surgery, a torn biceps, ruptured achilles, and a few other injuries that were almost miraculous; less than half the projected times and I was 100%. Now, I have a minor fall and likely to be out of commission (from anything but walking) for weeks. I'm very fortunate that I work in a medical facility, where access to top notch medical professionals, PT, chiro, etc. is literally a text message and a walk down the stairs from my office; don't know where I'd be without that. My biomarkers of cardiometabolic health and biological age are still very good, but I feel like I'm rapidly breaking down. We're all individuals, but it's crazy how my ability to physically recover has diminished as I approach 40.

MS?

[Starfish]

It's all about balance..The extremes like fire crowd who save 85% of income and live on $12k/ yr or the $250k incomer saving 8k/yr. Depends on how much you "loosen up" and not a made up reason to buy a bunch of toys(boats, planes, automobiles)

You start form the strange assumption that you cannot have a happy life with 12k/year, or that 24k/y would make you happier. I lived with less and it was the happiest part of my life. Now I cannot, I need a lot more money to be a lot less happy, but this is the miracle of youth.

[oldfort]

Life doesn't end at 55. Lots of people in their 50s continue to ski, boat, and fly. You might not climb Everest in your 50s or ever, but there's a lot of ways to spend money which don't require you to be in peak physical fitness. You can spend money on a nice house, a fancy boat, luxury cars, five star hotels, first class plane tickets or a private jet, and high end restaurants forever.

I edited my post to add that I am a couch potato

Then, when COVID is over, head to the gym and get in shape. What I wouldn't do is assume your expenses, other than childcare, are going to be dramatically lower in 15 years. Expenses can go up in retirement when you have more time to travel and to engage in hobbies.

[remomnyc]

I think it's important to enjoy life as you live it. Save for your pleasures (vacations, hobbies, clothes, furniture, whatever they may be) just as you would save for your retirement. The difference is that you will be spending on your pleasures as you go along. Even though I'm only in my 50s, I find fewer things I want to spend money on. Extravagant restaurant meals no longer give me pleasure. I wear the same few outfits constantly. I've traveled extensively and don't regret a minute of it, but now I'd rather meet friends for a walk in the park or fly to visit friends rather than to destinations. The only reason I still have a lot of travel planned is to introduce my kids to the places they haven't been.

Take care of your body so you can continue to enjoy yourself later. Ironically, the people I know who were the most athletic when they were younger have the most issues as they age with bad shoulders, knees, hips, and backs. People who were active but not athletic are faring much better. I'm not as fit as I was in my 20s, but I still do 5-mile runs (albeit at a 10-minute mile pace), play tennis, hike, and ski. Again, it's about balance and moderation.

[simas]

I don't think is any dichotomy between YOLO and BH. BH is not MMM. It's an investing style (3 low cost funds) and not a lifestyle.
The most aggressive lifestyle advice you see here is LBYM but that is very loose. It's obvious, everybody should live like that, regardless of YOLO, BH or whatever.
I am in both camps of YOLO and BH. I spend money for things I want to do now, but I optimize them based on happiness per $ spent. I think the general advice to save money for 20 year olds it's terrible advice. For me time value is a very steep function, and money at 20 have a lot more value that at 30 or 40, and then again a lot more that at 70 or 80. I also what to FIRE because time is running out. It's mot easy to balance all these requirements, but if I try to optimize the value of my time/life I am definitely in the YOLO camp.

Also, YOLO is so broad and everyone defines it so imprecisely that any real comparison is meaningless. i.e. is 'muscle over motor' (which is huge part of MMM) not YOLO? dont do self destructive things (take self destructive substances into your body) - is this not part of YOLO?

only if you defined YOLO is constant whining (anti stoicism) and self destructive then it contracts MMM imho ...

I enjoyed reading real stories from real people here. As others, I was and am avid grappler, fencer, fighter - especially in what we call HEMA (historical fencing) for decades. Now in my 40s I find that my body is not what it use to be and i have to be smarter in what I am and not willing to take on.. I still enjoy it however attitude definitely changed from 'will I have enough at some age x' to living your life

[BogleFan510]

As a 55 year old who hiked 10 miles over mountains yesterday, I recommend that you reconsider what your body can do if well maintained. We are retired though with more money than needed, so get your sentiment.

PS. I ran fun runs with Jim Fixx as a teen. He was a fine, generous person and it was sad when he passed.

[CyclingDuo]

Having said that, however, after I turned 40, I started realizing more and more that my physical abilities are slowly trending downwards. And my financial situation is trending upwards. As I see it, I will probably have a window of another 15 years (till I turn 55) where I will be able to use money for enjoyment for myself (physical activities). Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

Although I am not financially independent (FI) at the moment, I feel like I am on track. Barring any major disasters, we should likely be ok. So have been talking with my spouse lately about loosening up a bit.

I am assuming many others went through similar thoughts even though they were not FI. Would be nice to hear others who went through this.

Enjoying physical activities doesn't suddenly stop because you get older. It might slow a bit, which is natural, but it doesn't have to stop. At age 59, I still race mountain bikes, snow ski, ride my road bike (got in 450 hours in 2020 on the road bike), lift weights, love to go on long vigorous walks and hikes, etc... . Sure, it is all a few percent slower at my current age compared to 20 years ago, but c'est la vie - that's normal.

Enjoy some travel while you are younger and can have some experiences with your kids - it's well worth it.

Striking a good reasonable balance to enjoy the one journey you get along the way is the path we chose.

CyclingDuo

[Arabesque]

Life doesn't end at 55. Lots of people in their 50s continue to ski, boat, and fly. You might not climb Everest in your 50s or ever, but there's a lot of ways to spend money which don't require you to be in peak physical fitness. You can spend money on a nice house, a fancy boat, luxury cars, five star hotels, first class plane tickets or a private jet, and high end restaurants forever.

Boy, is that true, but you can be physical for a long time, too! I try and do something note worthy and physical for every birthday: learn to surf at 50, climbed a 6000+ foot mountain at 60, biked Europe at 65, climbed a 4000 foot mountain in snow at 69. AND I'm an overweight writer. I did give up ice skating in my early 60's, hated to do it, but I was the oldest person on the ice and started to fear falling. YOLO, but it might be for a good long time.

[Goldwater85]

You can do everything possible to avoid the inevitable or you can just live and take your chances. You might not realize it, but either way, you are gambling. Which gamble is more enjoyable?

In this day and age this unfortunately can be seen as a controversial statement.

For most people, surely there is happy medium between ascetic miser and joie la vive spendthrift. Figure out what you want life to be like when you stop producing an income, build some robustness into your assumptions based on the present and build your lifestyle from there.

[stoptothink]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

I'm a former D1 football player who also was a pretty high-level competitive powerlifter and then did pretty well as a triathlete (after an injury ended my powerlifting career) in my mid-20's. Exercise was a major part of my education, my career, and the foundation of my life (and that of my wife and kids). I've exercised at least 5 days a week, literally every week, since I was 15. As of 2yrs ago (at age 37), I was still able to deadlift nearly 3x my bodyweight and run a <20min 5k. I've experience a massive decline in health over the last 2yrs: diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that nearly killed me (that is now pretty well controlled with meds), found out I had a fractured thoracic spine (and had summitted countless prominent peaks, literally with a broken back), and broken my wrist twice from very minor falls (my proprioception has decreased significantly, probably in part to the back). At this point, I can't lift anything without pain and my athletic endeavors are now mountaineering (single day summits of prominent peaks, some basic climbing, snowshoeing), as it's the only thing I can recover from and feel confident I can do without getting hurt. I now do yoga ~5 days a week and mix in some running, but I need a full 48hrs to recover from anything that remotely pushes my limits.

It's been quite difficult because my wife and kids have found a new love in jiu jitsu and muy thai, and I simply can't do it with them. In my 20's I had recoveries from knee surgery, a torn biceps, ruptured achilles, and a few other injuries that were almost miraculous; less than half the projected times and I was 100%. Now, I have a minor fall and likely to be out of commission (from anything but walking) for weeks. I'm very fortunate that I work in a medical facility, where access to top notch medical professionals, PT, chiro, etc. is literally a text message and a walk down the stairs from my office; don't know where I'd be without that. My biomarkers of cardiometabolic health and biological age are still very good, but I feel like I'm rapidly breaking down. We're all individuals, but it's crazy how my ability to physically recover has diminished as I approach 40.

MS?

No, my condition isn't quite as lethal as MS, but when I was finally diagnosed my markers were 3x higher than my physician had ever even heard of. I nearly died because I didn't seek medical attention soon enough, which is ridiculous considering the environment I work in. It's managed pretty well now (for the most part), with decreasing the stress I put on my body and a single pill every morning. I have all kinds of autoimmune issues, as well as this condition, I also have RA and chronic idiopathic urticaria (but these were diagnosed two decades ago).

[Cruise]

YOLO vs BH can operate differently within financial and nonfinancial domains.

I definitely did YOLO with respect to athletics: Meniscus injury in gymnastics as a 12-year old, followed by ACL, MCL injuries in basketball and intercollegiate fencing. Doctor advised me to stop running, as I had no cartilage. Of course I ignored this, running multiple marathons and triathons. Shoulder first injured playing football, later thrown out in volleyball and finally in Aikido. One shoulder surgery and five knee surgeries (including TKR), at least I can walk again without pain.

Financially, no YOLO behavior until I got into my sixties.. But I still employ a BH approach to this!

[phxjcc]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

I'm a former D1 football player who also was a pretty high-level competitive powerlifter and then did pretty well as a triathlete (after an injury ended my powerlifting career) in my mid-20's. Exercise was a major part of my education, my career, and the foundation of my life (and that of my wife and kids). I've exercised at least 5 days a week, literally every week, since I was 15. As of 2yrs ago (at age 37), I was still able to deadlift nearly 3x my bodyweight and run a <20min 5k. I've experience a massive decline in health over the last 2yrs: diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that nearly killed me (that is now pretty well controlled with meds), found out I had a fractured thoracic spine (and had summitted countless prominent peaks, literally with a broken back), and broken my wrist twice from very minor falls (my proprioception has decreased significantly, probably in part to the back). At this point, I can't lift anything without pain and my athletic endeavors are now mountaineering (single day summits of prominent peaks, some basic climbing, snowshoeing), as it's the only thing I can recover from and feel confident I can do without getting hurt. I now do yoga ~5 days a week and mix in some running, but I need a full 48hrs to recover from anything that remotely pushes my limits.

It's been quite difficult because my wife and kids have found a new love in jiu jitsu and muy thai, and I simply can't do it with them. In my 20's I had recoveries from knee surgery, a torn biceps, ruptured achilles, and a few other injuries that were almost miraculous; less than half the projected times and I was 100%. Now, I have a minor fall and likely to be out of commission (from anything but walking) for weeks. I'm very fortunate that I work in a medical facility, where access to top notch medical professionals, PT, chiro, etc. is literally a text message and a walk down the stairs from my office; don't know where I'd be without that. My biomarkers of cardiometabolic health and biological age are still very good, but I feel like I'm rapidly breaking down. We're all individuals, but it's crazy how my ability to physically recover has diminished as I approach 40.

MS?

No, my condition isn't quite as lethal as MS, but when I was finally diagnosed my markers were 3x higher than my physician had ever even heard of. I nearly died because I didn't seek medical attention soon enough, which is ridiculous considering the environment I work in. It's managed pretty well now (for the most part), with decreasing the stress I put on my body and a single pill every morning. I have all kinds of autoimmune issues, as well as this condition, I also have RA and chronic idiopathic urticaria (but these were diagnosed two decades ago).

Ok.
Thanks.
Auto immune everything HERE.

MS
UC
RA
I'll even throw in AFIB, so I can say "I hit for the cycle"

Worked 5 years in an Auoimmune research labaround all,kinds of mean ugly things--don't suppose that could have anything to do with it?

Nah!

[novemberrain]

Thanks everyone for all the comments. Really learnt a lot from everyone's responses; and enjoyed reading the personal perspectives.

[goos_news]

Just want to add, there are multiple paths to the goal. You don't have to go extreme in your savings rate if you are on track to the goal and have no rush to get there. I would prioritize those active experiences that require spending that you might maximize enjoyment now. Also, invest in your health and fitness, and use this time to get your weight down and activity levels up. For example, I did a trek to Macchu Pichu in my early 40s, but some members of the group were in their 60s and had a pretty rough time. I saw others groups had people turn back, and it was never the less than 60 crowd. And that is an activity I would describe as moderate. Things don't end as you get older, but you will slow down and you will need to make training a lifetime commitment.

[59Gibson]

OP. If you see yourself physically going downhill at 40, you need to take an approach to that like you do to investing. You need to invest time and effort into your physical self. And, unlike BHs buy and hold, you cannot be inactive in that regard. Your physical self will take an active management approach.
There is no reason a 40 year old should be in such a condition that they are already noticing their decline.
I am assuming you are not talking about a decline from an 18 minute 5k to a 19 minute 5k. That is not what I am talking about.

Actually, the 40's is where a lot of age-related health impacts start to become apparent for a lot of people, and risk factors for mortality begin to go up sharply. The likelihood of cancer is a much more serious threat in one's 40's, for example. By the 60s, 70s, and certainly 80s, the accumulated damage from aging and related conditions leads to frailty in a lot of individuals. There is a large and growing body of scientific research evaluating interventions with the potential to extend healthspan. One problem with this research is that it's mostly in animals due to their shorter lifespans and the barriers and to human studies. Humans simply live too long and are difficult to control well enough so that you can understand the impact of an intervention over decades. But we may one day understand exactly what people should do if they want to be functioning well at the age of 120. Or even beyond.

Oh geez 120 years old. OP, you better keep the ultra BH lifestyle going and forget YOLO. You may have 80+ more yrs. Maybe 50 before SS/medicare kicks in.

[Carefreeap]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

You mean other than living out the remainder your life as poor on public assistance? Do you actually think anyone aspires to such a life?

You can live off social security in many areas of the US and have a perfectly fine life. Plus, in my example, you have the cash from all the loans/CC you took out and never paid back. The bogeyman of aging/dying poor isn’t a huge hassle in the US. Sure, you can’t do some of the extra things, but you could also die at any point.

I guess we have a different idea of what "a perfectly fine life" and "isn't a huge hassle" mean. Oh well.

Actually my parents did this and lived quite well.

When my mom was dying of pancreatic cancer I prayed that she would pass before her condo got forclosed on. She lived in one of the most expensive areas of San Diego and died with a negative $400k estate (-$300k home equity, -60k in CC debt & -$40k in Federal taxes). When she was explaining her financial situation to me I was in shock. I shouldn't have been as both she and my father had a long history of financial problems. She didn't seem to worried about it. Some of my friends thought it was great that she stuck it to the man.

After my parents split (at ages 58 & 60) Dad took early SS. He had been a low earner for years and spent the next 24 years living on a combination of SS and getting Medicaid benefits including custodial care in an institution for the last 10 months of his life. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

As their kid I think I worried about them more than they seemed to worried about themselves. My husband and I made the mistake of lending them money and were preparing to spend some 6k/mth for my Dad's LTC. While I never expected to inherit anything I sure didn't expect I would need to get stuck with cleaning up their messes. I sure wouldn't want to do that to my kids if we had chosen to have any. Really selfish and irresponsible.

[JoeRetire]

My view is that society subsidies YOLO, at least in the US. Ethics aside, you can absolutely save very little, accumulate a ton of debt you never plan to pay back and be assured of very few repercussions.

You mean other than living out the remainder your life as poor on public assistance? Do you actually think anyone aspires to such a life?

You can live off social security in many areas of the US and have a perfectly fine life. Plus, in my example, you have the cash from all the loans/CC you took out and never paid back. The bogeyman of aging/dying poor isn’t a huge hassle in the US. Sure, you can’t do some of the extra things, but you could also die at any point.

I guess we have a different idea of what "a perfectly fine life" and "isn't a huge hassle" mean. Oh well.

Actually my parents did this and lived quite well.

When my mom was dying of pancreatic cancer I prayed that she would pass before her condo got forclosed on. She lived in one of the most expensive areas of San Diego and died with a negative $400k estate (-$300k home equity, -60k in CC debt & -$40k in Federal taxes). When she was explaining her financial situation to me I was in shock. I shouldn't have been as both she and my father had a long history of financial problems. She didn't seem to worried about it. Some of my friends thought it was great that she stuck it to the man.

After my parents split (at ages 58 & 60) Dad took early SS. He had been a low earner for years and spent the next 24 years living on a combination of SS and getting Medicaid benefits including custodial care in an institution for the last 10 months of his life. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

As their kid I think I worried about them more than they seemed to worried about themselves. My husband and I made the mistake of lending them money and were preparing to spend some 6k/mth for my Dad's LTC. While I never expected to inherit anything I sure didn't expect I would need to get stuck with cleaning up their messes. I sure wouldn't want to do that to my kids if we had chosen to have any. Really selfish and irresponsible.

Not my idea of a perfectly fine life.

[H-Town]

Be active, lift weight, play your favorite sport. Turn those into habit and you will see a much different perspective.

[visualguy]

Living exclusively for the future can be as risky as living exclusively for the present.

Nobody lives exclusively for the future. Nobody lives exclusively for the present. We all should be able to find a mix that makes us happy through our entire lives, IMHO.

Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

You think you will be physically decrepit at 55? I find that sad.

I think you will find, as we all do, that life is what you make of it. You can find vigorous, enjoyable things to do at any age if you are motivated.

I play pickleball every day (outdoors through the winter here in Maine) with a big group of folks who range in age from 40s to late 80s. You would be hard pressed to guess ahead of time which ones can dominate on the court.

I live next to a woman in her 70s that is more physically active that I have ever been in my entire life. She golfs, swims, does yoga, surfs (and assists disabled folks in their surfing), skis (and assists disabled folks in their skiing), hikes, does Nordic walking, plays some tennis, etc, etc.

And I know some folks in their 40s who never get off their couches.

If you want to slow down at 55, that's your choice. If you don't want to slow down at 55, that's your choice too.

Much of it is genes and luck, though. There are things you can do like reduce the amount of unhealthy food, exercise, get enough sleep, but you are still largely a captive of your genes and random luck.

I tend to look at family history to get some indication of the quality of aging that can be expected.

[Nowizard]

The key question is what does your physical abilities "trending downward" mean? If there are chronic health issues, that is one thing, if it is more "couch potato" or stress issues, that is another. One is a management issue, the other a lifestyle issue. Either way, you seem to suggest that there are quite possibly some things you can do to eliminate or delay the trending downward that is not related to age or chronic issues. At one time or another, we all probably ask for advice but already know at least part of the answer but don't like it. Some call it denial by admission, a situation where we admit the problem and focus on that rather than dealing with it. That is often only the case in extreme situations, but we can almost always improve things by fully taking charge of situations ourselves in combination with seeking advice from others.

Tim

[hoops777]

Living exclusively for the future can be as risky as living exclusively for the present.

Nobody lives exclusively for the future. Nobody lives exclusively for the present. We all should be able to find a mix that makes us happy through our entire lives, IMHO.

Beyond 55, while I certainly hope to continue travel and other light activities; or donate money to charities or help kids, I won't be able to say Ski, boat, fly an airplane etc with the same vigor as I can now. Hell, I can't ski even now as easily as I could do in my twenties.

You think you will be physically decrepit at 55? I find that sad.

I think you will find, as we all do, that life is what you make of it. You can find vigorous, enjoyable things to do at any age if you are motivated.

I play pickleball every day (outdoors through the winter here in Maine) with a big group of folks who range in age from 40s to late 80s. You would be hard pressed to guess ahead of time which ones can dominate on the court.

I live next to a woman in her 70s that is more physically active that I have ever been in my entire life. She golfs, swims, does yoga, surfs (and assists disabled folks in their surfing), skis (and assists disabled folks in their skiing), hikes, does Nordic walking, plays some tennis, etc, etc.

And I know some folks in their 40s who never get off their couches.

If you want to slow down at 55, that's your choice. If you don't want to slow down at 55, that's your choice too.

Much of it is genes and luck, though. There are things you can do like reduce the amount of unhealthy food, exercise, get enough sleep, but you are still largely a captive of your genes and random luck.

I tend to look at family history to get some indication of the quality of aging that can be expected.

Genes and luck.
Both my parents lived into their 80’s. My dad smoked and drank. My mom smoked in her younger life. They ate a poor diet. They did not have a social life. They had virtually no relationship. I still think we were adopted No cancer but my dad did have a bypass at about 70.
Both my brothers died at 73 and lived a life opposite of our parents.
You just do not know. Expect the unexpected and enjoy while you can.