What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

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H-Town
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by H-Town »

mr_brightside wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:12 pm probably between FIRE and lean FIRE.

But a 'Country Boy Can Survive'. I'm not fancy.

-----------------------------------------
I live by it, every day. Not just when I get to FI.
nigel_ht
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by nigel_ht »

corn18 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:39 pm The only purpose my lean FIRE number served was for reference in case I lost my job and could not work again (KlangFool's posts scared me). RE was never a real consideration until we got to FI. So I think lean FIRE needs a different name. Maybe "Not eating cat food but can't live the lifestyle we want" NECFBCLLWW. Once we got to FI, we started thinking about RE. Until then, we were beholden to the paycheck. Now that we are obese FIRE, we are stopping work. At least for now. Who knows what the future holds.
Weirdly the more we had, the less obese it seemed...
bugleheadd
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bugleheadd »

corn18 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:39 pm The only purpose my lean FIRE number served was for reference in case I lost my job and could not work again (KlangFool's posts scared me). RE was never a real consideration until we got to FI. So I think lean FIRE needs a different name. Maybe "Not eating cat food but can't live the lifestyle we want" NECFBCLLWW. Once we got to FI, we started thinking about RE. Until then, we were beholden to the paycheck. Now that we are obese FIRE, we are stopping work. At least for now. Who knows what the future holds.
lean FIRE = minimalist monk mode

for me i can get by on 25,000 a year
7eight9
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by 7eight9 »

Last year my wife and I spent $17.1k. That did include employer-paid health insurance, no vacations other than a weekend in San Diego (thanks COVID), and no accrual for replacement vehicles/appliances, etc.

We can live on less (go down to one car, not vacation overseas and watch expenses more carefully). So Lean FIRE - maybe $15k.
FIRE - $25K
Fat FIRE - $40K ??? We've never spent that much unless you want to count purchasing a new vehicle (not amortizing the cost over expected life).

I believe we are ready to retire. That said, we can't leave the country to go where we want to retire so we are stuck here for the time being.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
EddyB
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by EddyB »

nigel_ht wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:35 pm
goblue100 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:49 pm
Fortuitous wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am Learn Fire: 40k would keep us fed and warm.

Fire: 60k. We spend this a year currently, and that is with a mortgage and child care.

FAT Fire: 80-100k. I would feel like the richest man alive.

Our numbers reflect the cost of the area where we live, and the company we keep.
I would say these fit me, other than the richest man alive comment at 100k a year. That would take 300k for me, at least. :happy
80 to 100k would be a very comfortable existence, though. Paid for house, medium cost of living area. 50-60k is what I expect to spend, and I think we will be very comfortable there.
Just remember that number is smaller after taxes...$70K a year ends up somewhere around $55K-60K depending state, etc.
Maybe that’s somehow possible, and it’s all about circumstances, but according to TaxCaster, a family that made $70,000 last year, all as ordinary income, with two qualifying children, seems to get a federal credit of a couple of thousand dollars.
BAM55
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by BAM55 »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:20 pm Last year my wife and I spent $17.1k. That did include employer-paid health insurance, no vacations other than a weekend in San Diego (thanks COVID), and no accrual for replacement vehicles/appliances, etc.

We can live on less (go down to one car, not vacation overseas and watch expenses more carefully). So Lean FIRE - maybe $15k.
FIRE - $25K
Fat FIRE - $40K ??? We've never spent that much unless you want to count purchasing a new vehicle (not amortizing the cost over expected life).

I believe we are ready to retire. That said, we can't leave the country to go where we want to retire so we are stuck here for the time being.
Party of two living on $15k a year? Yowza! Yeah, you could probably retire.

I was living on $15k a year while still living with my parents, single, and working a minimum wage job (with tips!) in 1987.
2tall4economy
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by 2tall4economy »

njdealguy wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:48 pm
2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
So your in your mid 40s with $2m-$3m and are projecting to have 10m+ at age 50? Quadrupling your NW in 5 years or so wow.
"A bit after age 50". 53 to be precise. I expect I'll have lost about $800k exiting my rental properties when it's all said and done vs holding but no way wife could handle that and better to do it now when still "young". Otherwise I'd be pushing $4 or so.

Assumes I get zero raises until retirement. Raises are gravy.

Long time coming but finally enjoying the rewards of a career that saw people with similar educations (doctors, lawyers, consultants, accounting firm partners) going past me. They're finally in the rearview. Though I think I will advise my kids to follow their path an not mine when the time comes.
Last edited by 2tall4economy on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
novemberrain
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by novemberrain »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:37 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm

The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
That’s a lot of ifs. Where I come from, and it’s a pretty nice area, the dudes who are home with the kids either have a trust fund or their wife is a higher earner. Or both in a couple of cases.
Plenty of dudes/dudettes in BH who live in nice areas, and self-made their way into FI. They can retire if they want to.
marshall
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by marshall »

Portfolio Size
Lean FIRE $1,250,000
FIRE $1,700,000
Fat FIRE >$2,500,000
brennok
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by brennok »

Mid 40s, single, and mcol I would guess.

LeanFIRE - 50K or 1.7M using a 3% SWR
Fire - 75K or 2.5m using a 3% SWR
Chubby Fire - 100K or 3.35m at 3% SWR
Fat Fire - $225K or 7.5m at 3% SWR

Current spending is less than 50k but I figure with offsetting employer insurance with ACA insurance it would be a wash in expenses. I know 3% is on the low side but I figure it gives me an extra buffer and I have always been more conservative when it comes to spending money.

I also predict higher spending in retirement since my spending now is mostly streamlined with no travel and very little in the way of excess spending other than a few nice steak dinners occasionally with friends.
jayk238
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by jayk238 »

lean Fire is 100 or less
Fire is 200

Fat Fire is anything over 300. I frankly cant come up with enough expensive stuff for me that 300k cant cover. Anything else that is more expensive is just bizarre flexing
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

:!:
novemberrain wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:37 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm

As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
That’s a lot of ifs. Where I come from, and it’s a pretty nice area, the dudes who are home with the kids either have a trust fund or their wife is a higher earner. Or both in a couple of cases.
Plenty of dudes/dudettes in BH who live in nice areas, and self-made their way into FI. They can retire if they want to.
I wasn’t speaking of the BH community. I was speaking of the community at large. I absolutely agree there are a much higher population of BHs with young families that can retire if they want to, that a random group- even a random group in a high income community.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
angelescrest
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by angelescrest »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:20 pm Last year my wife and I spent $17.1k. That did include employer-paid health insurance, no vacations other than a weekend in San Diego (thanks COVID), and no accrual for replacement vehicles/appliances, etc.

We can live on less (go down to one car, not vacation overseas and watch expenses more carefully). So Lean FIRE - maybe $15k.
FIRE - $25K
Fat FIRE - $40K ??? We've never spent that much unless you want to count purchasing a new vehicle (not amortizing the cost over expected life).

I believe we are ready to retire. That said, we can't leave the country to go where we want to retire so we are stuck here for the time being.
I think we have a winner, folks. :shock:
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Firemenot
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Firemenot »

angelescrest wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:04 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:20 pm Last year my wife and I spent $17.1k. That did include employer-paid health insurance, no vacations other than a weekend in San Diego (thanks COVID), and no accrual for replacement vehicles/appliances, etc.

We can live on less (go down to one car, not vacation overseas and watch expenses more carefully). So Lean FIRE - maybe $15k.
FIRE - $25K
Fat FIRE - $40K ??? We've never spent that much unless you want to count purchasing a new vehicle (not amortizing the cost over expected life).

I believe we are ready to retire. That said, we can't leave the country to go where we want to retire so we are stuck here for the time being.
I think we have a winner, folks. :shock:
Golf scoring?
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

A few more days like today and we can all upgrade from lean to fire and from fire to fat. :sharebeer
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
flyingaway
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by flyingaway »

The only number that matters is the one you will retire with.
Dominic
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Dominic »

I'm currently in a low-cost of living area. That said:

Current spending: ~$38,000 annually
Lean: ~$32,000 (cut back on food and car expenses substantially)
Fat: ~$50,000 (travel a lot more)
Normal: ~$42,000 (resume travel and in-restaurant dining post-COVID)
fatcoffeedrinker
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by fatcoffeedrinker »

Lean: < $150k
FIRE: $150k to $200k
Fat FIRE: $200k to $240k
Obese FIRE: > $240k

Currently in the middle of FIRE. Should hit Fat FIRE by year end and just touch Obese FIRE by the end of 2022. If the powers that be can convince me to stay into 2023, then could be $20k into Obese FIRE by mid 2023.
qwertyjazz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by qwertyjazz »

flyingaway wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:55 pm The only number that matters is the one you will retire with.
Actually it matters what the next ten years are after you retire :moneybag :wink:
G.E. Box "All models are wrong, but some are useful."
stocknoob4111
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by stocknoob4111 »

Lean - 30k/yr, Fire - $36k/yr, Fat - $50k/yr, Dom Perignon Fire - $100k/yr
all at 33X would be Lean - $1M, Fire - $1.2M, Fat - 1.65M, DP Fire - 3.3M
Marseille07
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Marseille07 »

stocknoob4111 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:56 pm Lean - 30k/yr, Fire - $36k/yr, Fat - $50k/yr, Dom Perignon Fire - $100k/yr
all at 33X would be Lean - $1M, Fire - $1.2M, Fat - 1.65M, DP Fire - 3.3M
Omg, reading this I now feel like I need to up my numbers.
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JDCarpenter
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by JDCarpenter »

We never differentiated among these levels, perhaps because we both enjoyed our professions. In any event, our xxx-FIRE number for quitting in our mid-50s was being able to spend 2 times our post-tax, post-children, pre-retirement expenditures.

Obviously, we had/have big plans for travel....
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flyingaway
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by flyingaway »

What is the point of lean FIRE if you don't FIRE at that level, or at whatever level. When you actually FIRE, that is the level of FIRE, no lean or fat, just comfortable.
bogcir
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bogcir »

flyingaway wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:46 am What is the point of lean FIRE if you don't FIRE at that level, or at whatever level. When you actually FIRE, that is the level of FIRE, no lean or fat, just comfortable.
Honestly, I think it depends on your earning potential. If you have low earning potential, leanFire might make sense. For some people leanFire is not on the table, but those people have the luxury of earning a little higher/longer to meet their comfortable-fire number. And those in high earning occupations just want to support their more expensive lifestyle or aspire to a higher lifestyle that they can reasonably reach, and so shoot for "fatFire".

I think the numbers are interesting, in that when you hit your personal leanFire number, you know you'll be ok. You could sustain, though it's not ideal. Similarly for those shooting for fatFire, hitting your Fire number is also reassuring.
zuma
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by zuma »

Me: mid 40s, single, no debt, no kids, no car, rent < 500 USD/month

Lean = $25k (this covers my base needs)
Comfortable = $40k (more travel, more dining out, no need for a job or extra income)
Fat = $50k+

I'm currently somewhere between lean and comfortable -- what I consider the 'semi-retirement' zone.
zuma
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by zuma »

bogcir wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:55 am
flyingaway wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:46 am What is the point of lean FIRE if you don't FIRE at that level, or at whatever level. When you actually FIRE, that is the level of FIRE, no lean or fat, just comfortable.
Honestly, I think it depends on your earning potential. If you have low earning potential, leanFire might make sense. For some people leanFire is not on the table, but those people have the luxury of earning a little higher/longer to meet their comfortable-fire number. And those in high earning occupations just want to support their more expensive lifestyle or aspire to a higher lifestyle that they can reasonably reach, and so shoot for "fatFire".

I think the numbers are interesting, in that when you hit your personal leanFire number, you know you'll be ok. You could sustain, though it's not ideal. Similarly for those shooting for fatFire, hitting your Fire number is also reassuring.
Agreed. For me, the numbers are useful for planning. Knowing that my portfolio is big enough to sustain my base expenses means that I could settle for lean FIRE and still be fine, even though that's not the preferred outcome.
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corn18
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by corn18 »

zuma wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:44 am
bogcir wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:55 am
flyingaway wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:46 am What is the point of lean FIRE if you don't FIRE at that level, or at whatever level. When you actually FIRE, that is the level of FIRE, no lean or fat, just comfortable.
Honestly, I think it depends on your earning potential. If you have low earning potential, leanFire might make sense. For some people leanFire is not on the table, but those people have the luxury of earning a little higher/longer to meet their comfortable-fire number. And those in high earning occupations just want to support their more expensive lifestyle or aspire to a higher lifestyle that they can reasonably reach, and so shoot for "fatFire".

I think the numbers are interesting, in that when you hit your personal leanFire number, you know you'll be ok. You could sustain, though it's not ideal. Similarly for those shooting for fatFire, hitting your Fire number is also reassuring.
Agreed. For me, the numbers are useful for planning. Knowing that my portfolio is big enough to sustain my base expenses means that I could settle for lean FIRE and still be fine, even though that's not the preferred outcome.
I used to use lean FIRE as my I just got fired FIRE. Felt a bit less stress at work once I reached lean FIRE. A lot less at FIRE. And now that we are at Obese FIRE, I am done.
Don't do something, just stand there!
Exchme
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Exchme »

As I read the low end numbers for LeanFIRE, I keep wondering where the health insurance is? Seems a bit risky to build a long term plan that ignores the rule of TANSTAAFL.
nigel_ht
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by nigel_ht »

Exchme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:52 am As I read the low end numbers for LeanFIRE, I keep wondering where the health insurance is? Seems a bit risky to build a long term plan that ignores the rule of TANSTAAFL.
1) Few millennials, even fen, know what TANSTAAFL means. The concept yes. The actual phrase, no (There Ain't No such Thing As A Free Lunch).
2) LeanFIRE proponents depend on a healthy lifestyle, luck and ACA...and occasionally expat insurance. Expat insurance can get pretty low in price...but it does mean that if you are home in the US you are uncovered...
wtfire
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by wtfire »

Last year was an unintended experiment for our spending. For our family of three, we spent about 40k. Factor in healthcare and other once in a while spending, I'll say,

$80k for LeanFIRE, less than that, I don't feel safe to retire early at all
$120k for FIRE, much more comfortable, some international travels
$200k for FatFIRE, never spent this much in a year, have to come up with a spending plan :D
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InvestorHowie
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by InvestorHowie »

Late 40's, M/HCOL, married no kids, includes mortgage (for now), likely about 3.5% SWR

Lean $65K, actual expenses, as lean as I want to consider
FIRE $80-110K, realistic low/high range for pulling the plug with little worry
Fat >$110K, probably just working for fun at this point
Investing should be more like watching paint dry or watching grass grow. If you want excitement, take $800 and go to Las Vegas. --Paul Samuelson
pepys
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by pepys »

$15k for lean (approximately current expenses after accounting for health insurance, so I could scrape by on it)
$25k for FIRE (enough that I'd feel very secure)
$40k for fat (enough that I could do basically anything I wanted)
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