What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

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angelescrest
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by angelescrest »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 pmI live in a not particularly large house (about 1750 square feet), but in a VHCOL area.
I think it has to do with interpretation of what lean FIRE is. My understanding is that lean FIRE is living in a basic fashion in a way that minimizes expenses which means minimizing the cost of housing as well. There are some places where even entry level houses cost $1M+ and mortgages would be $5K/month, that would not be lean FIRE in my opinion because that is an expensive lifestyle - for instance living by the beach in Southern California would not be lean FIRE, it would just be regular FIRE. Otherwise the definition of lean FIRE would be so broad it would really have no meaning.
I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
I think only one person has posted so far a leanFIRE number/plan.
CoastLawyer2030
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

I generally subscribe to the LeanFIRE mindset. There is a ton of anti-consumerist literature that have been the best reads for me in a long time.

The Freedom Manifesto by Tom Hodgkinson and Escape Everything by Robert Wringham are just excellent reads. Perhaps I like them because I am a lawyer, and lawyers are trained to be skeptical, but they peel back the onions on consumerist culture in hysterical fashion. Being completely honest — I laugh out loud reading these books.

The “Ultimate Cheapskate” series is very good as well. They are not what you would think, and nothing in them is revolutionary, but the constant theme is “pick a standard of living at 30 and stay there.” I’m 33 and extremely comfortable now and don’t plan on striving. In fact, reading these books caused me to *downgrade* cars and pay cash for a 2015 Toyota Camry with 62,000 miles.

My ultimate plan is to accumulate as much assets as possible until 40 and then basically quit. My projections are that we will have somewhere around $900k-1.1M by then. I will probably get into real estate or blogging around then.

I anticipate expenses to be around $2,500 per month, or $30,000 per year, exclusive of the mortgage. I am debating whether to pay off the mortgage until 40 or stick everything in a brokerage and just pull $11,000/year from an accumulated account to make the mortgage almost a “fake” bill.

I also plan on allocating $10,000-20,000 for travel.

In the interim, my wife still plans to work three days per week. I will probably have some nominal income, probably staying with my one or two best clients. This is probably 3-5 hours per week for me but $25,000/year in income.

Ideally, we would not have to pull from retirement accounts when this happens. But, if we do, the penalty will be nominal, so who cares. Or we will do Roth conversion.

So to answer the question, Lean would be $30,000/year; regular would be probably $45,000/year, and Fat would be $65,000/year. I live in a very LCOL area (NE Ohio), which makes all these numbers go.
Fortuitous
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Fortuitous »

Learn Fire: 40k would keep us fed and warm.

Fire: 60k. We spend this a year currently, and that is with a mortgage and child care.

FAT Fire: 80-100k. I would feel like the richest man alive.

Our numbers reflect the cost of the area where we live, and the company we keep.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by CyclingDuo »

ohboy! wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:04 am
chipperd wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:14 am I would like to see an expression or similarly catchy acronym for mostly retired early and working for fun on a very part time basis. Anyone hear of such a thing?
I believe coastfire s intended to mean working just to cover cost of living and not spend savings. From my perspective its the fire trend gone too far where someone 25 with $200k saved thinks they firing. Though it still incentivizes saving early and financial planning which is good. I just think any such calculator is highly speculative if someone is 100% vtsax and next month their current savings could be 30% lower.
My generation would call what chipperd asks simply as "semi-retired". I think the acronym of semi-retired (or SR) still works today in spite of it perhaps not being as catchy of an acronym as all the tired FIRED acronyms are at this point. You've hit your FI number, and any work that is done at that point can just be done for the love and joy of it, or for fun on a part-time basis - perhaps even for a little fun spending money. It's more about having a little sense of identity and purpose, socialization, perhaps helping others, as well as the mental/physical challenge than it is the money at that point. In the case of a dual income household, it might even be a few filler years working part-time while waiting for one's spouse to retire from their full time job.

Not that it really matters regarding all of these acronyms and being financially independent, but I believe everything I have read regarding the CoastFIRE acronym was that you aggressively front load your investment and retirement accounts in all of the early working years and then once you've reached the "tipping point", you stop contributing to them to let the power of time and compounding work their magic on all of those front loaded assets. You would still need to produce an income for the remainder of your working years to cover your lifestyle (which you could bump up) until you reach your desired retirement age that will have enough assets to cover your needs in retirement. Seems to make sense as a strategy for those who save aggressively in the first decade or two as they build their careers, choose to have children in their 30's and then are more able to cash flow their children's college educations since they so aggressively front loaded their investments early in their career.

https://fourpillarfreedom.com/what-is-coast-fire/

https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/what- ... retirement

https://financialpanther.com/coast-fire ... ependence/

CyclingDuo
Last edited by CyclingDuo on Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Firemenot
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Firemenot »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 pmI live in a not particularly large house (about 1750 square feet), but in a VHCOL area.
I think it has to do with interpretation of what lean FIRE is. My understanding is that lean FIRE is living in a basic fashion in a way that minimizes expenses which means minimizing the cost of housing as well. There are some places where even entry level houses cost $1M+ and mortgages would be $5K/month, that would not be lean FIRE in my opinion because that is an expensive lifestyle - for instance living by the beach in Southern California would not be lean FIRE, it would just be regular FIRE. Otherwise the definition of lean FIRE would be so broad it would really have no meaning.
I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
Well, BHers clearly have shifted, on average, the frame for all FIRE metrics to the right relative to reddit, which isn’t surprising as the average BHer is fairly affluent. If I have time, maybe I’ll go through the responses and plot out.
bradshaw1965
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 pmI live in a not particularly large house (about 1750 square feet), but in a VHCOL area.
I think it has to do with interpretation of what lean FIRE is. My understanding is that lean FIRE is living in a basic fashion in a way that minimizes expenses which means minimizing the cost of housing as well. There are some places where even entry level houses cost $1M+ and mortgages would be $5K/month, that would not be lean FIRE in my opinion because that is an expensive lifestyle - for instance living by the beach in Southern California would not be lean FIRE, it would just be regular FIRE. Otherwise the definition of lean FIRE would be so broad it would really have no meaning.
I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
Really depends on age, a stable health care platform and your thoughts on the integrity of pension/Social Security. Won't go into last 2 but how much you trust you have really changes those numbers.
novemberrain
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by novemberrain »

goos_news wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:05 pm
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:29 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:33 am
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:20 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:29 pm My Lean FIRE, FIRE, and fat FIRE numbers are as follows. Relevant info: 40s, multiple kids that will still be in the house for years, high-cost of living area I don’t want to leave, and sizable outstanding mortgage.

No way, no how: <80K
Lean FIRE: 80-120K
FIRE: 120K-200K
Fat FIRE: 200k+
How about for Morbidly Obese Fire (MoFire)
I just added to original post in an edit.
Similar to yours

No way, no how: 60K (I will need to move from current VHCOL to LCOL)
Lean FIRE: 100k (can survive in VHCOLwith reduced standard of living)
FIRE: 180k (current lifestyle; I.e frugal where possible)
Fat FIRE: 250k (slightly upgraded lifestyle)
MoFire: 400 (seriously upgraded lifestyle)

Aiming for MoFire till I get forced out of work (boredom, health, ageism). Till then, live aggressively. I.e outsource everything and spend time with family and work aggressively
I like your estimates, and they seem realistic to me.

It is really easy for me to come up with a realistic budget for FatFIRE number above (and have one) and the MoFIRE isn't that difficult to reach. The lifestyle creep stuff has a way of compounding pretty fast. (As I type this, my spouse is in the other room looking at London real estate)
Thanks.

Yeah about realistic budgets, I am actually thinking I might spend more after retirement. Right now, I don't have time to travel much. But if I am not working, I might want to travel more. Or buy a bigger boat etc

Also, still trying to wrap my head around taxes in retirement. I mean I know retirement "income" will mostly be long term cap gains or tax free IRAs. So it shouldn't matter if my "income" is 100k or 500k in retirement. I mean I probably would pay around the same tax rates (I know LTCG also varies a bit; but nothing like the 42% effective rate that W2 income people pay for sure). But still trying to wrap my head around that since I am used to paying insane taxes while I am working now.
novemberrain
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by novemberrain »

neb2020 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:17 pm Has anyone crunched their numbers on retirement expenses. I'm asking a contrarian question of if you're earning $100k++/yr now, do you need $100k++/yr(adjusted for inflation) at retirement?

For those planning to moFIRE with $250k/yr, what are you spending your money on?
Isn't there a probability that you would spend more in retirement ? I mean when a person is working, they probably don't have much time for travel or any hobbies. But once they are no longer working, wouldn't those things (travel/hobbies) take up more money ?
bradshaw1965
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

novemberrain wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 pm
neb2020 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:17 pm Has anyone crunched their numbers on retirement expenses. I'm asking a contrarian question of if you're earning $100k++/yr now, do you need $100k++/yr(adjusted for inflation) at retirement?

For those planning to moFIRE with $250k/yr, what are you spending your money on?
Isn't there a probability that you would spend more in retirement ? I mean when a person is working, they probably don't have much time for travel or any hobbies. But once they are no longer working, wouldn't those things (travel/hobbies) take up more money ?
Choice of hobbies, lifestyle businesses, etc. are part of the equation. The standard BH retirement IPS needs this info, a large reason why we get millions of dollars of difference in these threads.
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Firemenot
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Firemenot »

bradshaw1965 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 pm
novemberrain wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 pm
neb2020 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:17 pm Has anyone crunched their numbers on retirement expenses. I'm asking a contrarian question of if you're earning $100k++/yr now, do you need $100k++/yr(adjusted for inflation) at retirement?

For those planning to moFIRE with $250k/yr, what are you spending your money on?
Isn't there a probability that you would spend more in retirement ? I mean when a person is working, they probably don't have much time for travel or any hobbies. But once they are no longer working, wouldn't those things (travel/hobbies) take up more money ?
Choice of hobbies, lifestyle businesses, etc. are part of the equation. The standard BH retirement IPS needs this info, a large reason why we get millions of dollars of difference in these threads.
I think it would be nice to increase spending to compensate for aging. Would be nice to only fly first class, stay at nicer hotels with better service, hire house cleaners and gardeners, stop doing so much home maintenance myself, etc. I think my budget will likely be a wash with kids off the books and increased spending.
bradshaw1965
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

Firemenot wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:27 pm
bradshaw1965 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 pm
novemberrain wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 pm
neb2020 wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:17 pm Has anyone crunched their numbers on retirement expenses. I'm asking a contrarian question of if you're earning $100k++/yr now, do you need $100k++/yr(adjusted for inflation) at retirement?

For those planning to moFIRE with $250k/yr, what are you spending your money on?
Isn't there a probability that you would spend more in retirement ? I mean when a person is working, they probably don't have much time for travel or any hobbies. But once they are no longer working, wouldn't those things (travel/hobbies) take up more money ?
Choice of hobbies, lifestyle businesses, etc. are part of the equation. The standard BH retirement IPS needs this info, a large reason why we get millions of dollars of difference in these threads.
I think it would be nice to increase spending to compensate for aging. Would be nice to only fly first class, stay at nicer hotels with better service, hire house cleaners and gardeners, stop doing so much home maintenance myself, etc. I think my budget will likely be a wash with kids off the books and increased spending.
Good choices. Just think the millions of dollars in “required” assets is confusing to most new BH community members.
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CalPoppy
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by CalPoppy »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:33 am
CoastFIRE
Upon first glance, I thought this was a new term for FIRE’ing in HCOL coastal California, haha.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by CyclingDuo »

Rob1 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:25 pm
CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:33 am
CoastFIRE
Upon first glance, I thought this was a new term for FIRE’ing in HCOL coastal California, haha.
I guess we would have to call that West CoastFIRE or East CoastFIRE or Gulf CoastFIRE.

CyclingDuo
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bostonboglehead123
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bostonboglehead123 »

Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

angelescrest wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:16 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 pmI live in a not particularly large house (about 1750 square feet), but in a VHCOL area.
I think it has to do with interpretation of what lean FIRE is. My understanding is that lean FIRE is living in a basic fashion in a way that minimizes expenses which means minimizing the cost of housing as well. There are some places where even entry level houses cost $1M+ and mortgages would be $5K/month, that would not be lean FIRE in my opinion because that is an expensive lifestyle - for instance living by the beach in Southern California would not be lean FIRE, it would just be regular FIRE. Otherwise the definition of lean FIRE would be so broad it would really have no meaning.
I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
I think only one person has posted so far a leanFIRE number/plan.
I think that’s because leanfire isn’t a plan at all.

It’s what you do if your plans fail.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
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Firemenot
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Firemenot »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:20 pm
angelescrest wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:16 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:22 pm

I think it has to do with interpretation of what lean FIRE is. My understanding is that lean FIRE is living in a basic fashion in a way that minimizes expenses which means minimizing the cost of housing as well. There are some places where even entry level houses cost $1M+ and mortgages would be $5K/month, that would not be lean FIRE in my opinion because that is an expensive lifestyle - for instance living by the beach in Southern California would not be lean FIRE, it would just be regular FIRE. Otherwise the definition of lean FIRE would be so broad it would really have no meaning.
I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
I think only one person has posted so far a leanFIRE number/plan.
I think that’s because leanfire isn’t a plan at all.

It’s what you do if your plans fail.
. . . or based on my observations for people who absolutely hate their job and are unable or unwilling to try something else, but just want to get to anything they can define as a “finish line” as soon as possible.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Firemenot wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:22 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:20 pm
angelescrest wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:16 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am
Firemenot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:36 pm

I respectfully disagree. By your definition Lean FIRE only encompasses moving to very low cost areas of the country away from friends and family and living in a very basic fashion in addition. I also did ask for each person’s opinion for themself. I’m not looking for an absolute definition, which cannot exist with all of the variables anyhow.
Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
I think only one person has posted so far a leanFIRE number/plan.
I think that’s because leanfire isn’t a plan at all.

It’s what you do if your plans fail.
. . . or based on my observations for people who absolutely hate their job and are unable or unwilling to try something else, but just want to get to anything they can define as a “finish line” as soon as possible.
That’s not leanfire. Here’s my somewhat controversial take: That’s called addiction. There’s something going on at home that makes work almost impossible to do. The real trick is to get permanent disability.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
mak1277
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mak1277 »

bostonboglehead123 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
sailaway
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by sailaway »

Lean: 25x our expenses when we were living the lifestyle most similar to the one we are planning in retirement

FIRE: 25x current expenses, which includes an extra home

FAT: 25x our single highest year, aka 50x our average
goos_news
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by goos_news »

novemberrain wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:03 pm
goos_news wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:05 pm
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:29 pm
Firemenot wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:33 am
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:20 am

How about for Morbidly Obese Fire (MoFire)
I just added to original post in an edit.
Similar to yours

No way, no how: 60K (I will need to move from current VHCOL to LCOL)
Lean FIRE: 100k (can survive in VHCOLwith reduced standard of living)
FIRE: 180k (current lifestyle; I.e frugal where possible)
Fat FIRE: 250k (slightly upgraded lifestyle)
MoFire: 400 (seriously upgraded lifestyle)

Aiming for MoFire till I get forced out of work (boredom, health, ageism). Till then, live aggressively. I.e outsource everything and spend time with family and work aggressively
I like your estimates, and they seem realistic to me.

It is really easy for me to come up with a realistic budget for FatFIRE number above (and have one) and the MoFIRE isn't that difficult to reach. The lifestyle creep stuff has a way of compounding pretty fast. (As I type this, my spouse is in the other room looking at London real estate)
Thanks.

Yeah about realistic budgets, I am actually thinking I might spend more after retirement. Right now, I don't have time to travel much. But if I am not working, I might want to travel more. Or buy a bigger boat etc

Also, still trying to wrap my head around taxes in retirement. I mean I know retirement "income" will mostly be long term cap gains or tax free IRAs. So it shouldn't matter if my "income" is 100k or 500k in retirement. I mean I probably would pay around the same tax rates (I know LTCG also varies a bit; but nothing like the 42% effective rate that W2 income people pay for sure). But still trying to wrap my head around that since I am used to paying insane taxes while I am working now.
I'm planning to spend more in retirement, definitely. Regarding taxes, I tend to increase default estimates for tax rates when using the modeling software (or use one that consider sources in time). In reality, it will vary over time, however, with maybe more LTCG and non-taxable during the bridge years, and then taxable growing in post-traditional retirement age years. We are paying a lot right now, with few optimizations available.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm
bostonboglehead123 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
mak1277
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mak1277 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm
bostonboglehead123 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm
bostonboglehead123 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
alfaspider
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by alfaspider »

I think it's best to just go by portfolio size given that people have different safe withdrawal rate numbers. My numbers are likely higher than others because I am young (going with conservative safe withdrawal assumptions), have young kids, and am not willing to move out of my MCOL city. I also enjoy hobbies that are fairly expensive, and their costs would go up if I had more time to devote. All numbers are 2021 constant dollars. When i say "RE", I mean both spouses cease working. I agree with others that just one spouse working when you have kids is called being a stay at home parent (nothing wrong with that choice, but it's not really retirement).

Lean FIRE: $2MM. This would require selling my house and significantly paring down expenses. I wouldn't do this unless I had some serious obstacle to future employment.

FIRE: $4MM: I could continue to live in my current house and roughly the same lifestyle, but I'd need to watch my expenses. I won't quit my day job if and when I hit this mark, but I might consider doing the "RE" thing if I were laid off.

FAT FIRE: $6MM + paid off house: I'd be pretty confident that money wouldn't prevent me from pretty much doing what I want at this point. I might consider actually doing the "RE" if I hit this number.
Charon
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Charon »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:38 pm HCOL with a house paid off:
Lean: 20K
Normal: 40K
Fat: 100K
Congrats on buying long ago in a place with a cap on property tax increases! I'm originally from a HCOL area where many people now spend enough on property taxes to not leave much for food in your lean FIRE, let alone medical or anything else.
mak1277
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mak1277 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm
bostonboglehead123 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm Are you all talking pre-tax / post-tax numbers? Pre-tax would be a lot more convenient for mental math when you try to convert between your portfolio $ value and annual expenses. Regardless (assuming 3.25% SWR, because that's what we're comfortable with when it comes to RE):

Lean FI: $40k ($1.25MM) - Extremely basic needs for a family of 4. Will survive but not much beyond that. If we do this, we'd either have to move to a LCOL state in the US or outside the US to someplace cheap (probably back home to India where $40k a year gets you a lot more).

FI: $80k ($2.5MM) - Tuition for kids' college is going to be a bit iffy but we can probably make it work.

Fat FI: $150k ($4.5MM) - Not much else to say, healthcare will be taken care of, portfolio will most likely grow and not diminish (esp., if you don't withdraw 3.25% every single year), enough to maintain our current lifestyle even in retirement.
It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
mnnice
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mnnice »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:31 pm
Firemenot wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:22 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:20 pm
angelescrest wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:16 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 am

Lean FIRE is traditionally understood to be the MMM style of very minimalist FIRE.

Reddit LeanFIRE community:

"For those that want to approach the problem of financial independence from a minimalist, stoic, frugal, or anti-consumerist trajectory.

leanFIRE is planning to retire with household expenses of $40k/year or less (~$20k/yr or less for an individual). The idea is that you will "passively" own income streams (work with a salary = "active" income stream) to pay all of your expenses and you will be able to choose if you continue working or not."

https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/

"Lean FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) is being able to retire before the conventional age of 60+, but significant sacrifices must be made in order to do so."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/

I can go on but I'd say somewhere in the region of $30-50K where you move to LCOL and be as frugal as MMM says but not as he actually lives...

leanFire strikes me as high risk...there's little margin for error given it's mostly based on a 4% SWR and good health.
I think only one person has posted so far a leanFIRE number/plan.
I think that’s because leanfire isn’t a plan at all.

It’s what you do if your plans fail.
. . . or based on my observations for people who absolutely hate their job and are unable or unwilling to try something else, but just want to get to anything they can define as a “finish line” as soon as possible.
That’s not leanfire. Here’s my somewhat controversial take: That’s called addiction. There’s something going on at home that makes work almost impossible to do. The real trick is to get permanent disability.
Gee judge much. We semi-retired pushing eight years. It was pretty lean at the time but we did have about 25x expenses. I can assure you that there was no addiction, mental, or physical health issues at play.

However, I was driving 72 miles one way to work, battling crappy winter roads, with a very heavy deadline intensive work load, and grieving the death of a parent. We made a deliberate choice to work and earn less. I prefer time affluence to money affluence.

The bull market has been kind too. Without generating enough earned income to cash flow our lives some/most months we now have ~45x expenses.

We have started tackling college funding. Elder child has a semester under his belt with tuition from grants, book/tools from a scholarship, rent/utilities/car from his 529, and groceries/entertainment for his work study job.

The biggest wild card has been healthcare. So far so good. And only about three years till I could purchase it from a previous employer.

Might not be the life for everyone, but so far so good.
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CalPoppy
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by CalPoppy »

Here are some actual numbers, for what it's worth:
  • FIRE: $120k (2020 so very limited travel, eating out...but spending ramped up in other areas)
  • Fat FIRE: $160k (2017-2019 spending average)
This is based on:
  • FIRE'd couple in early 50s living in VHCOL
  • But ~MCOL property taxes due to state's limitation on increases
  • Mortgage removed from above numbers
  • Taxes included
  • Privately purchased health insurance included, bronze plan, no subsidy
BTW, we are over 10 years in. Some have been FIRE, some Fat Fire, some in-between. Sometime due to finances; sometimes due to life circumstances. It doesn't have to be the same every year.
Last edited by CalPoppy on Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm

It's interesting that you say "enough to maintain our current lifestyle" is FatFIRE. For me, "enough to maintain my current lifestyle" is LeanFIRE (or, maybe more accurately, just FIRE). I would never voluntarily reduce my lifestyle from it's current state just to RE.
The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
That’s a lot of ifs. Where I come from, and it’s a pretty nice area, the dudes who are home with the kids either have a trust fund or their wife is a higher earner. Or both in a couple of cases.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
hi_there
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by hi_there »

I don't think stay at home dad and retired are mutually exclusive. You can retire from your career and become a stay at home dad.

However, I think you do need to accomplish something to qualify as "retired", and this doesn't have to be related to age. For instance, if you are 30 years old and don't work after selling your software company for $20 million, you can call yourself retired.
mak1277
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mak1277 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:37 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:02 pm

The trick is to get the mortgage paid off and the kids grown up and on their own. That frees up a lot of cash to increase your quality of life, without needing any more income. I realize there are a lot of folks who had kids later in life, but some of us were completely done by 50.
As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
That’s a lot of ifs. Where I come from, and it’s a pretty nice area, the dudes who are home with the kids either have a trust fund or their wife is a higher earner. Or both in a couple of cases.
My wife's job was eliminated several years before we had kids. We decided at that time that it wasn't needed for her to go back to work. She has since stayed home with our kid since he was born. I'm planning to retire within the next 12-18 months (hopefully sooner). No trust fund here, but I am a fairly high earner. We'll both be under 45 with no plans or need for future employment.
bradshaw1965
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

hi_there wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:31 pm I don't think stay at home dad and retired are mutually exclusive. You can retire from your career and become a stay at home dad.

However, I think you do need to accomplish something to qualify as "retired", and this doesn't have to be related to age. For instance, if you are 30 years old and don't work after selling your software company for $20 million, you can call yourself retired.
Without judging, the restricted use of language like that is a limiting mindset.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

mak1277 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:57 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:37 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:22 pm
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:53 pm

As I said above, my mortgage is already paid off, and I'm going to retire before my kid is in kindergarten, so none of that is relevant.
Isn’t that called a stay at home dad?
I think if the wife works then you call it a SAHD. But what if nobody is working? Aren't both parents retired?
That’s a lot of ifs. Where I come from, and it’s a pretty nice area, the dudes who are home with the kids either have a trust fund or their wife is a higher earner. Or both in a couple of cases.
My wife's job was eliminated several years before we had kids. We decided at that time that it wasn't needed for her to go back to work. She has since stayed home with our kid since he was born. I'm planning to retire within the next 12-18 months (hopefully sooner). No trust fund here, but I am a fairly high earner. We'll both be under 45 with no plans or need for future employment.
Only you know the ifs, and of course the unknown ifs that you’ve never even contemplated that life reveals over time. I wish you the best of luck.
3 Fund Portfolio. 70%/30% AA. No mortgage. Simple.
2tall4economy
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by 2tall4economy »

Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
azianbob
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by azianbob »

Married, no kids, HCOL

No way, no how: <50K, <1 M in portfolio
Lean FIRE: 50-80K, 2-4M in portfolio
FIRE: 80K-150K, 5-9 M in portfolio
Fat FIRE: 150k+, <10M in portfolio

If I had over $2 M, I would still work but my salary would not be as important. I could scrape by.
If I had $5 M, I would probably quit and live a simple life (aka drive a used Camry, shop at Costco) doing hobbies I enjoy (fixing my car, watching sports, etc)
If I had over $10 M, I would probably live a pretty extravagant life flying first class and driving a luxury car.
nigel_ht
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by nigel_ht »

2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
Private jet? Well the cheapest one is $1.9M...but the Cirrus is pretty tight. $8.3M is probably the first reasonable one (a CJ3) to get unless you're a pilot. I guess you would put 1/3 of your net worth into one but more likely at the $30M NW point you'll likely just buy a membership with a private service.

IMHO $30M is kinda the minimum where a significant lifestyle change starts occurring...it's a but fuzzy that line but somewhere in there you move from stuff you and I could do (flying first class, staying in a nice hotel, etc) in the under $5M NW occurring more and more regularly to regular experiences that are qualitatively different than we would pay for and still be able to maintain our HNW status. Flying private jet vs first class one example...

What does $30M+ buy you that 10M doesn't? More likely entry into a social network that would benefit your kids and grandkids in addition to physical benefits. Is it worth working till 65? Not for me...not that my income was high enough to get $30M anyway.
SQRT
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by SQRT »

For me it was probably something like (Cdn dollars yearly normal spending):
Lean fire >$500k
Fire >$800k
Fat fire >$1.2 million.

Retired 14 years ago.
bradshaw1965
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

This has been a really useful thread for me. Thanks to all that participated. It helps see fellow Bogleheads mindsets.
User avatar
Elsebet
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by Elsebet »

Fortuitous wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am Learn Fire: 40k would keep us fed and warm.

Fire: 60k. We spend this a year currently, and that is with a mortgage and child care.

FAT Fire: 80-100k. I would feel like the richest man alive.

Our numbers reflect the cost of the area where we live, and the company we keep.
This is about the same for us.
"...the man who adapts himself to his slender means and makes himself wealthy on a little sum, is the truly rich man..." ~Seneca
alfaspider
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Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by alfaspider »

nigel_ht wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am
2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
Private jet? Well the cheapest one is $1.9M...but the Cirrus is pretty tight. $8.3M is probably the first reasonable one (a CJ3) to get unless you're a pilot. I guess you would put 1/3 of your net worth into one but more likely at the $30M NW point you'll likely just buy a membership with a private service.

IMHO $30M is kinda the minimum where a significant lifestyle change starts occurring...it's a but fuzzy that line but somewhere in there you move from stuff you and I could do (flying first class, staying in a nice hotel, etc) in the under $5M NW occurring more and more regularly to regular experiences that are qualitatively different than we would pay for and still be able to maintain our HNW status. Flying private jet vs first class one example...
Most folks in the low to mid 8 figure NW range don't own their own private jet. It usually doesn't make sense unless you have unusually high travel needs/desires. Smaller/cheaper private jets tend to have limited range and fly slower than a commercial airliner. Fine if you are doing a lot of hops between your job in the NYC area and your vacation house in Maine or South Carolina, but not ideal if you want to fly transcontinental or abroad. Older/larger private jets can bridge the gap somewhat, but will have higher operating/maintenance costs and may not be as safe as a newer aircraft. Owning a very light jet like a Hondajet or a Cirrus SF50 could make sense if you are a very experienced pilot looking for something you can fly yourself. Something with truly global range requires something like a Gulfstream G550, with a price tag in the $30-60MM range, plus the need to employ two pilots. You'd need to be getting close to billionaire status to justify something like that.

Someone in the $30MM net worth range could afford to fly private for most relatively normal travel needs with a Netjets or other charter subscription. No need to deal with employing pilots or worrying about maintenance. Just schedule and go. It would still be a big expense to travel private overseas- equivalent to the splurge of someone in the $2MM net worth bracket buying two business class tickets overseas.
bradshaw1965
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:36 pm

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

alfaspider wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:40 am
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am
2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
Private jet? Well the cheapest one is $1.9M...but the Cirrus is pretty tight. $8.3M is probably the first reasonable one (a CJ3) to get unless you're a pilot. I guess you would put 1/3 of your net worth into one but more likely at the $30M NW point you'll likely just buy a membership with a private service.

IMHO $30M is kinda the minimum where a significant lifestyle change starts occurring...it's a but fuzzy that line but somewhere in there you move from stuff you and I could do (flying first class, staying in a nice hotel, etc) in the under $5M NW occurring more and more regularly to regular experiences that are qualitatively different than we would pay for and still be able to maintain our HNW status. Flying private jet vs first class one example...
Most folks in the low to mid 8 figure NW range don't own their own private jet. It usually doesn't make sense unless you have unusually high travel needs/desires. Smaller/cheaper private jets tend to have limited range and fly slower than a commercial airliner. Fine if you are doing a lot of hops between your job in the NYC area and your vacation house in Maine or South Carolina, but not ideal if you want to fly transcontinental or abroad. Older/larger private jets can bridge the gap somewhat, but will have higher operating/maintenance costs and may not be as safe as a newer aircraft. Owning a very light jet like a Hondajet or a Cirrus SF50 could make sense if you are a very experienced pilot looking for something you can fly yourself. Something with truly global range requires something like a Gulfstream G550, with a price tag in the $30-60MM range, plus the need to employ two pilots. You'd need to be getting close to billionaire status to justify something like that.

Someone in the $30MM net worth range could afford to fly private for most relatively normal travel needs with a Netjets or other charter subscription. No need to deal with employing pilots or worrying about maintenance. Just schedule and go. It would still be a big expense to travel private overseas- equivalent to the splurge of someone in the $2MM net worth bracket buying two business class tickets overseas.
There are very few forums that would have both set me up for a very comfortable early retirement and give me such great insights on private aviation. BH is a treasure, I hope we remember this when all the navel gazing and sniping about some esoterica comes up.
nigel_ht
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:14 am

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by nigel_ht »

alfaspider wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:40 am
nigel_ht wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am
2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
Private jet? Well the cheapest one is $1.9M...but the Cirrus is pretty tight. $8.3M is probably the first reasonable one (a CJ3) to get unless you're a pilot. I guess you would put 1/3 of your net worth into one but more likely at the $30M NW point you'll likely just buy a membership with a private service.

IMHO $30M is kinda the minimum where a significant lifestyle change starts occurring...it's a but fuzzy that line but somewhere in there you move from stuff you and I could do (flying first class, staying in a nice hotel, etc) in the under $5M NW occurring more and more regularly to regular experiences that are qualitatively different than we would pay for and still be able to maintain our HNW status. Flying private jet vs first class one example...
Most folks in the low to mid 8 figure NW range don't own their own private jet. It usually doesn't make sense unless you have unusually high travel needs/desires. Smaller/cheaper private jets tend to have limited range and fly slower than a commercial airliner. Fine if you are doing a lot of hops between your job in the NYC area and your vacation house in Maine or South Carolina, but not ideal if you want to fly transcontinental or abroad. Older/larger private jets can bridge the gap somewhat, but will have higher operating/maintenance costs and may not be as safe as a newer aircraft. Owning a very light jet like a Hondajet or a Cirrus SF50 could make sense if you are a very experienced pilot looking for something you can fly yourself. Something with truly global range requires something like a Gulfstream G550, with a price tag in the $30-60MM range, plus the need to employ two pilots. You'd need to be getting close to billionaire status to justify something like that.

Someone in the $30MM net worth range could afford to fly private for most relatively normal travel needs with a Netjets or other charter subscription. No need to deal with employing pilots or worrying about maintenance. Just schedule and go. It would still be a big expense to travel private overseas- equivalent to the splurge of someone in the $2MM net worth bracket buying two business class tickets overseas.
I think you said it better than I did. Of course the OP's point is that flying private isn't worth working more years to get to $30MM and I don't necessarily disagree...but I think there may be other scenarios where being in that $30MM+ category is much better than the $5-10MM category.

Whether those are worth working longer would also be debatable. Certainly there's that next tier around a billion where private islands, jets, yachts, etc are the same kind of level of expense we might equate with a new car or something. Noticeable but not really noteworthy impact to NW...
mr_brightside
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 pm

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mr_brightside »

probably between FIRE and lean FIRE.

But a 'Country Boy Can Survive'. I'm not fancy.

-----------------------------------------
remember Enron?? I do
MoonOrb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by MoonOrb »

I can't really wrap my head around the idea of LeanFIRE or how that information is useful to me. If I can't have the lifestyle I want to have, I am not ready to retire early and I'm not exactly financially independent, either. If there is some unforeseen circumstance that occurs in my life that makes working not feasible or desirable I can assess whether retirement on a reduced budget is possible at the time. But it's nothing I feel like I'm going to plan for in advance. If those circumstances even arose, I'd probably make other choices: leave a VHCOL area, consider move in with family, etc, etc. But I've got zero interest in planning for a lifestyle that does not seem reasonably likely and that I don't want.

(It's okay if this information is useful or helpful to other people, though, that's totally cool).

I have a less puzzled reaction to FatFIRE, but I don't really get that, either. It's sort of like...if I am targeting the amount that will support the lifestyle that I want (FIRE), knowing that I have more than is necessary doesn't help me. If I feel like I want to actually have a greater expenditure level in retirement, than I'd just adjust my FIRE number higher--that would be my number.

All of that being said, I imagine everything is in a slightly fuzzy range, too. So right now, the lifestyle I want to lead is basically the lifestyle I have now, so I need to have enough retirement income/assets to pay for all expenditures including taxes. That could be about $120k-$155k a year, so I estimate my FIRE number at $155k. Maybe people who think of this differently think of Lean FIRE as $120k, FIRE as $135k, and Fat FIRE as $155k? I don't really know.
bradshaw1965
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:36 pm

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by bradshaw1965 »

MoonOrb wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:24 pm I can't really wrap my head around the idea of LeanFIRE or how that information is useful to me. If I can't have the lifestyle I want to have, I am not ready to retire early and I'm not exactly financially independent, either. If there is some unforeseen circumstance that occurs in my life that makes working not feasible or desirable I can assess whether retirement on a reduced budget is possible at the time. But it's nothing I feel like I'm going to plan for in advance. If those circumstances even arose, I'd probably make other choices: leave a VHCOL area, consider move in with family, etc, etc. But I've got zero interest in planning for a lifestyle that does not seem reasonably likely and that I don't want.

(It's okay if this information is useful or helpful to other people, though, that's totally cool).

I have a less puzzled reaction to FatFIRE, but I don't really get that, either. It's sort of like...if I am targeting the amount that will support the lifestyle that I want (FIRE), knowing that I have more than is necessary doesn't help me. If I feel like I want to actually have a greater expenditure level in retirement, than I'd just adjust my FIRE number higher--that would be my number.

All of that being said, I imagine everything is in a slightly fuzzy range, too. So right now, the lifestyle I want to lead is basically the lifestyle I have now, so I need to have enough retirement income/assets to pay for all expenditures including taxes. That could be about $120k-$155k a year, so I estimate my FIRE number at $155k. Maybe people who think of this differently think of Lean FIRE as $120k, FIRE as $135k, and Fat FIRE as $155k? I don't really know.
I don't think you are really playing the FIRE game at all with those numbers, although they are useful for people to understand where you are coming from. I think in general when you see FIRE you are talking about people with a non-traditional retirement mindset. You can play the game with more traditional numbers but it will usually indicate that somebody is thinking about retirement differently.
njdealguy
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:15 am

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by njdealguy »

2tall4economy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 am Since I get to define my own:

Lean fire = id still look for a job if I got fired from work, but I wouldn’t starve.

Fire = I probably wouldn’t look for a job if I got fired.

Fat fire = the negative marginal utility of continuing to work for money subtracted from the money earned would be negative.

So I guess fire = $200k / $5m assets or so.

Lean fire is anything less than that. Make it $2m - $3m since that’s where I am now.

Fat fire is probably $400k / $10m assets. A bit after age 50 depending based on my projections (been tracking for 20 years; they’re pretty good at this point).

I used to think I’d keep working until 65 and have a pile in the range of $30m “just to be” uhnw; a goal since I grew up pretty darn poor. But I can’t for the life of me think of what I could buy with $30m I can’t buy with $10m. Other than things that shouldn’t be priced that high. Maybe a private jet or a Manhattan townhouse or a yacht or something.... not too appealing.

Chicago area
Unemployed by choice wife
3 young kids
Mid 40s
So your in your mid 40s with $2m-$3m and are projecting to have 10m+ at age 50? Quadrupling your NW in 5 years or so wow.
goblue100
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:31 am

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by goblue100 »

Fortuitous wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am Learn Fire: 40k would keep us fed and warm.

Fire: 60k. We spend this a year currently, and that is with a mortgage and child care.

FAT Fire: 80-100k. I would feel like the richest man alive.

Our numbers reflect the cost of the area where we live, and the company we keep.
I would say these fit me, other than the richest man alive comment at 100k a year. That would take 300k for me, at least. :happy
80 to 100k would be a very comfortable existence, though. Paid for house, medium cost of living area. 50-60k is what I expect to spend, and I think we will be very comfortable there.
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns
mak1277
Posts: 1762
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by mak1277 »

bradshaw1965 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:32 pm
MoonOrb wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:24 pm I can't really wrap my head around the idea of LeanFIRE or how that information is useful to me. If I can't have the lifestyle I want to have, I am not ready to retire early and I'm not exactly financially independent, either. If there is some unforeseen circumstance that occurs in my life that makes working not feasible or desirable I can assess whether retirement on a reduced budget is possible at the time. But it's nothing I feel like I'm going to plan for in advance. If those circumstances even arose, I'd probably make other choices: leave a VHCOL area, consider move in with family, etc, etc. But I've got zero interest in planning for a lifestyle that does not seem reasonably likely and that I don't want.

(It's okay if this information is useful or helpful to other people, though, that's totally cool).

I have a less puzzled reaction to FatFIRE, but I don't really get that, either. It's sort of like...if I am targeting the amount that will support the lifestyle that I want (FIRE), knowing that I have more than is necessary doesn't help me. If I feel like I want to actually have a greater expenditure level in retirement, than I'd just adjust my FIRE number higher--that would be my number.

All of that being said, I imagine everything is in a slightly fuzzy range, too. So right now, the lifestyle I want to lead is basically the lifestyle I have now, so I need to have enough retirement income/assets to pay for all expenditures including taxes. That could be about $120k-$155k a year, so I estimate my FIRE number at $155k. Maybe people who think of this differently think of Lean FIRE as $120k, FIRE as $135k, and Fat FIRE as $155k? I don't really know.
I don't think you are really playing the FIRE game at all with those numbers, although they are useful for people to understand where you are coming from. I think in general when you see FIRE you are talking about people with a non-traditional retirement mindset. You can play the game with more traditional numbers but it will usually indicate that somebody is thinking about retirement differently.
What do the numbers have to do with it? If you're retiring at, say, 45, why wouldn't you be "playing the FIRE game" if your number is $120k a year? Desiring early retirement doesn't automatically mean you also desire to live on less than $100k per year.
nigel_ht
Posts: 1843
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:14 am

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by nigel_ht »

goblue100 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:49 pm
Fortuitous wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am Learn Fire: 40k would keep us fed and warm.

Fire: 60k. We spend this a year currently, and that is with a mortgage and child care.

FAT Fire: 80-100k. I would feel like the richest man alive.

Our numbers reflect the cost of the area where we live, and the company we keep.
I would say these fit me, other than the richest man alive comment at 100k a year. That would take 300k for me, at least. :happy
80 to 100k would be a very comfortable existence, though. Paid for house, medium cost of living area. 50-60k is what I expect to spend, and I think we will be very comfortable there.
Just remember that number is smaller after taxes...$70K a year ends up somewhere around $55K-60K depending state, etc.
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corn18
Posts: 2148
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:24 am

Re: What are your Lean FIRE, FIRE, and Fat FIRE numbers?

Post by corn18 »

The only purpose my lean FIRE number served was for reference in case I lost my job and could not work again (KlangFool's posts scared me). RE was never a real consideration until we got to FI. So I think lean FIRE needs a different name. Maybe "Not eating cat food but can't live the lifestyle we want" NECFBCLLWW. Once we got to FI, we started thinking about RE. Until then, we were beholden to the paycheck. Now that we are obese FIRE, we are stopping work. At least for now. Who knows what the future holds.
Last edited by corn18 on Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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