Ugh Vanguard! May have to leave. They made a huge error.

[humbledinvestor]

I had to transfer 47.6% of my rollover IRA as part of the equitable distribution agreement of my divorce. The agreement and the form which I filled out were very clear! 47.6% of 560k plus (whatever the market value is on that day), instead they gave her 76%!! No one even called my to clarify. Has anyone experienced them making errors? Now instead of working I am on hold trying to reverse this.

[livesoft]

I had an error that was worse made by Bank of America. They took about 3 weeks to fix it. Relax. I am sure this happens all the time and they know how to fix it. In this age of social media we now hear and read about all the mistakes and errors that went unseen in the dark ages.

[humbledinvestor]

Instead of working I am on hold for 45 minutes.

[2tall4economy]

wow. what a way to screw up. sorry to hear that.

[livesoft]

Instead of working I am on hold for 45 minutes.

Well, you should send them a letter and have them call you about it next week. Also, if you insist on holding, I suggest putting phone on speaker and working for a while until they pick up. Cell phones are great for this. But I would have no problem with being away from the phone and working. If they somehow picked up while I was gone, then I would just call again and start over.

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Instead of working I am on hold for 45 minutes.

Well, you should send them a letter and have them call you about it next week. Also, if you insist on holding, I suggest putting phone on speaker and working for a while until they pick up. Cell phones are great for this.

celphones? even my vtech landline does this. great feature, though.

[galawdawg]

Wow! Looks like perhaps someone neglected to type the "4" at the beginning of the percent to be transferred and neglected to double-check their work before submitting it.

Something like this should probably be handled by secure message as well so there is a written record of the communication.

[humbledinvestor]

Thanks for the sarcasm. What I meant was the error has me too annoyed to focus on work. Yes I know phones can be put on hold. My post was to ask if Vanguard screws up a lot. Not sarcastic personal attacks about how to be on hold.

[Stinky]

Somebody at Vanguard had a fat finger.

OP, sorry for your distress. Your concern is well-warranted. Let us know how this turns out.

[alex_686]

I used to work in Custody & Transfer. This sounds like a fat finger issue. It is a entry level role with a focus on speed. While this is a pain it is fairly common.

[CAsage]

I have never had Vanguard make a mistake in any of my accounts over any years. I will note that the "biggest" brokerage firm is likely to have the "biggest" number of human errors, just due to the sheer number of transactions. I'm assuming there was no restriction on fractional percentages? I know for withholding taxes, one can only specify a whole percentage and of course Roth conversions are by whole numbers of shares; lots of user entry errors there.

[livesoft]

When Bank of America made the error I mentioned, I left within 10 minutes of them fixing it. I left by making them hand me a cashier's check for all the assets I had with them and closed all my accounts with them. It made me feel better, too. You should leave Vanguard.

[humbledinvestor]

When Bank of America made the error I mentioned, I left within 10 minutes of them fixing it. I left by making them hand me a cashier's check for all the assets I had with them and closed all my accounts with them. It made me feel better, too. You should leave Vanguard.

I may. PAS has also not been great or responsive lately and seems to have some turnover.

[H-Town]

Thanks for the sarcasm. What I meant was the error has me too annoyed to focus on work. Yes I know phones can be put on hold. My post was to ask if Vanguard screws up a lot. Not sarcastic personal attacks about how to be on hold.

I'd take a personal day to deal with this issue. The more frustration you let on, the harder it will get.

I'd just get a cup of coffee, get on a couch, watch TV while on hold with Vanguard.

[jrbdmb]

I had an error that was worse made by Bank of America. They took about 3 weeks to fix it. Relax. I am sure this happens all the time and they know how to fix it. In this age of social media we now hear and read about all the mistakes and errors that went unseen in the dark ages.

I would find it difficult to "relax" knowing that Vanguard made a $159,000 error. I guess I'm funny that way.

[finite_difference]

If they fail to make you whole and admit fault, I would definitely leave. Also, let us know. Otherwise I wouldn’t worry; I would be surprised if you weren’t made whole and it was Vanguard’s error.

I feel like web forms with double confirmation are a lot better for these things than manual entry.

[humbledinvestor]

I am on the phone with them while the processor works to reverse the transaction. Now the processor via the advanced team wants to tell me that I made a mistake. The advance team member agrees with me. I told her that the processor just needs to reverse it and not question what is written in black and white in an agreement and Vanguard's transfer form.

[Prokofiev]

When Bank of America made the error I mentioned, I left within 10 minutes of them fixing it. I left by making them hand me a cashier's check for all the assets I had with them and closed all my accounts with them. It made me feel better, too. You should leave Vanguard.

I may. PAS has also not been great or responsive lately and seems to have some turnover.

If you have a PAS advisor, I would call that person directly. If they do not respond, I would immediately leave. No
point in paying .3% of your assets and being unable to contact them or fix issues.

[8foot7]

OP: it is inexcusable that Vanguard sent 150k of your money to your ex-spouse and if I were you, I'd never do business with them again, no matter how they make it right.

That there are so many here who would excuse this action, given the sensitivity of the situation, as "oh well put the phone on mute and go about your day" is hard to understand.

Mistakes happen, sure. But that's a large amount of money being transferred in what could reasonably be ascertained as a complicated interpersonal situation. No reason to give your custom to a business that won't train its staff to take two seconds to double-check the figures.

[ohboy!]

Good PSA that these institutions are not infallible. Im just imagining the mistakes made that go unnoticed by users. And of course the ones that benefit the account holder and are never discovered or reported.

[Angst]

I had an error that was worse made by Bank of America. They took about 3 weeks to fix it. Relax. I am sure this happens all the time and they know how to fix it. In this age of social media we now hear and read about all the mistakes and errors that went unseen in the dark ages.

Good insight, good advice!
And I say that as one who would do well to heed it more often.

[livesoft]

I would find it difficult to "relax" knowing that Vanguard made a $159,000 error. I guess I'm funny that way.

I have found that as life goes on, one is exposed to many many errors that seem to get larger and larger as time passes. I don't think it is just error inflation though. If you've had a million dollar error fixed to your satisfaction, then these minor errors are a drop in the bucket.

But I will re-iterate the comment about Social Media. Before forums, twitter, and fb existed, one just got annoyed in solitude or maybe with 3 close friends and their mother. Nowadays, one has to tell the strangers out in the world and expects sympathy in return. I wonder if all this shortens people's lifespans from all the anxiety, stress, and worry.

[humbledinvestor]

When Bank of America made the error I mentioned, I left within 10 minutes of them fixing it. I left by making them hand me a cashier's check for all the assets I had with them and closed all my accounts with them. It made me feel better, too. You should leave Vanguard.

I may. PAS has also not been great or responsive lately and seems to have some turnover.

If you have a PAS advisor, I would call that person directly. If they do not respond, I would immediately leave. No
point in paying .3% of your assets and being unable to contact them or fix issues.

Agreed. I have emailed him and expressed my displeasure. I have a 3 fund portfolio. I don't think I need them. I engaged with PAS 5 years ago to get me on the right path with a simple portfolio and to protect my taxable investments from myself i.e. individual stocks, frequent trading etc. But now with everything I have learned in the past 5 years from Bogleheads, I am not sure if I should be paying them.

[sycamore]

... My post was to ask if Vanguard screws up a lot...

If you're looking to hear that others are frustrated with Vanguard, know that you're not alone. There are threads about various bad experiences BHers have had with Vanguard recently. Whether that constitutes "a lot" of Vanguard screw ups, I don't know. We don't have much hard data, just a bunch of anecdotes and ideas about why customer service is bad right now. Consider reading those other threads if you like to commiserate with fellow unfortunate Vanguard investors. Good luck!

[humbledinvestor]

I would find it difficult to "relax" knowing that Vanguard made a $159,000 error. I guess I'm funny that way.

I have found that as life goes on, one is exposed to many many errors that seem to get larger and larger as time passes. I don't think it is just error inflation though. If you've had a million dollar error fixed to your satisfaction, then these minor errors are a drop in the bucket.

But I will re-iterate the comment about Social Media. Before forums, twitter, and fb existed, one just got annoyed in solitude or maybe with 3 close friends and their mother. Nowadays, one has to tell the strangers out in the world and expects sympathy in return. I wonder if all this shortens people's lifespans from all the anxiety, stress, and worry.

So again, I posted to see how common this is. Not to tell strangers but to ask if it has happened before. Yes I know the old world these tools were not there. But this is the new world.

[H-Town]

I am on the phone with them while the processor works to reverse the transaction. Now the processor via the advanced team wants to tell me that I made a mistake. The advance team member agrees with me. I told her that the processor just needs to reverse it and not question what is written in black and white in an agreement and Vanguard's transfer form.

Does that mean there's a typo on the form that you submitted to Vanguard?

Vanguard is working with you to solve the issue. I guess it's the best outcome you could hope for, right?

[humbledinvestor]

I am on the phone with them while the processor works to reverse the transaction. Now the processor via the advanced team wants to tell me that I made a mistake. The advance team member agrees with me. I told her that the processor just needs to reverse it and not question what is written in black and white in an agreement and Vanguard's transfer form.

Does that mean there's a typo on the form that you submitted to Vanguard?

Vanguard is working with you to solve the issue. I guess it's the best outcome you could hope for, right?

There is no typo. I reviewed it several times. But they want accuse me of a typo.

[Dude2]

My intuition tells me that COVID has the place pretty messed up, but I can't prove that. I have definitely had one screw up in my time, but I got over it. Lately, during COVID, I've had two really long timeframes on doing transfers of TIRA money out (2 months plus) where I had to call several times and have these things "investigated".

I have no doubt, however, that once the smoke clears on COVID, they will re-evaluate some things -- hire more people, beef up infrastructure, make web services more resilient. It just has to be a nightmare right now. Even hiring new people must be difficult. If they use overseas outsourcing at all, I imagine that has been affected.

It probably does not help. Yes, if you want to leave, I think there is justification.

[galawdawg]

I was a Vanguard client-owner for thirty (30) years before I left Vanguard late-2019 after a series of service issues, including locking my entire account in error after a partial transfer of one position. When I contacted them, they insisted that they were correct and that the entire account would remain locked for another two weeks or so.

I put on my attorney hat and read them chapter and verse of FINRA rules on the matter, an hour later I received a call back from them that their account freeze was erroneous and they unlocked the account.

I still hold Vanguard funds, I just don't hold them at Vanguard.

[Normchad]

I would find it difficult to "relax" knowing that Vanguard made a $159,000 error. I guess I'm funny that way.

I have found that as life goes on, one is exposed to many many errors that seem to get larger and larger as time passes. I don't think it is just error inflation though. If you've had a million dollar error fixed to your satisfaction, then these minor errors are a drop in the bucket.

But I will re-iterate the comment about Social Media. Before forums, twitter, and fb existed, one just got annoyed in solitude or maybe with 3 close friends and their mother. Nowadays, one has to tell the strangers out in the world and expects sympathy in return. I wonder if all this shortens people's lifespans from all the anxiety, stress, and worry.

So again, I posted to see how common this is. Not to tell strangers but to ask if it has happened before. Yes I know the old world these tools were not there. But this is the new world.

It hasn’t happened to me. I don’t expect any organization to be infallible. But I do expect them to rectify mistakes when they’re made.

So I’m very interested to hear if they resolve this mistake to your satisfaction.

[TomatoTomahto]

I don’t think I’m divulging trade secrets when I tell you that, in our combined 50+ years in the financial services industry (and 0 at Vanguard), my wife and I have direct knowledge of billions of dollars in “fat finger mistakes” that have been made. ETA: in fact, they are so common that the term “fat finger” was invented as a shorthand for managers to describe them in their reports.

Anything that is written can be transposed or have digits missed when re-keyed. If it can happen for $millions, it can happen for $thousands.

I know it sucks, but I am sure it will be resolved.

[humbledinvestor]

Of course mistakes happen. But I would think there is a process in to review something before it is done. I know it will be corrected. I just want it done ASAP.

[qwertyjazz]

I would find it difficult to "relax" knowing that Vanguard made a $159,000 error. I guess I'm funny that way.

I have found that as life goes on, one is exposed to many many errors that seem to get larger and larger as time passes. I don't think it is just error inflation though. If you've had a million dollar error fixed to your satisfaction, then these minor errors are a drop in the bucket.

But I will re-iterate the comment about Social Media. Before forums, twitter, and fb existed, one just got annoyed in solitude or maybe with 3 close friends and their mother. Nowadays, one has to tell the strangers out in the world and expects sympathy in return. I wonder if all this shortens people's lifespans from all the anxiety, stress, and worry.

I would love for a financial institution to make a billion dollar error on my account. I am pretty sure I will not get where that is possible.

[DebiT]

I suppose any institution can make errors. But their phone and customer service situations, from this and other posts, sound unacceptable, even accounting for Covid. I’ve had occasion to call various departments at Schwab, even during Covid, and always had prompt answers, competent reps, and solutions to my questions. My sympathies. And I too would not be “relaxed” about this.

[humbledinvestor]

I suppose any institution can make errors. But their phone and customer service situations, from this and other posts, sound unacceptable, even accounting for Covid. I’ve had occasion to call various departments at Schwab, even during Covid, and always had prompt answers, competent reps, and solutions to my questions. My sympathies. And I too would not be “relaxed” about this.

Thanks. I 100% agree that the Covid excuse is unacceptable. So many companies have thrived and pivoted during Covid because of their culture. I know Vanguard has very old school culture that is not used to a lot of change. I have a Schwab account and they have been great!

Had to call back as the call dropped in the middle of a discussion with them. Clearly they have my number, but no one called me back. I had to call them.

Oh and 3 messages to my PAS advisor between 12/26 and yesterday. No reply.

[Silverado]

Is it possible the system is set for only full percents and the leading digit fell off? And the decimal was ignored? Even my grade school programming ability would do better than that.

Any COBOL experts here? Or is Vanguard running ALGOL backend?......

It’ll never get fixed fast enough for you OP, but will end up okay. I don’t blame you for being ticked and excitedly posting responses. Like LS said, this day and age allows us to vent to a large group and it can feel better.

I assume this was an electronic form? Did you get a copy of it? That could be educational for us to know.

[galawdawg]

... I have a Schwab account and they have been great!

Had to call back as the call dropped in the middle of a discussion with them. Clearly they have my number, but no one called me back. I had to call them.

Oh and 3 messages to my PAS advisor between 12/26 and yesterday. No reply.

Is there a particular reason you are still at Vanguard? If you have a Schwab account and are satisfied there, you may just want to move everything over in-kind as soon as your money is back in your account.

Three messages to your PAS over the course of two weeks without a reply and no call from VG after your call dropped this morning....inexcusable.

[JackoC]

I have never had Vanguard make a mistake in any of my accounts over any years. I will note that the "biggest" brokerage firm is likely to have the "biggest" number of human errors, just due to the sheer number of transactions. I'm assuming there was no restriction on fractional percentages? I know for withholding taxes, one can only specify a whole percentage and of course Roth conversions are by whole numbers of shares; lots of user entry errors there.

Not only has Vanguard never made such an error in my account(s), I'm hard pressed to remember any remotely similar case with numerous other brokerages, banks and credit unions I've dealt with over a long time. Sympathies to OP, sounds especially awkward because it's overpayment to somebody you might not be on the best of terms with, but seems cases like this are not that common. Vanguard not dealing with various things on certain occasions as easily as I'd have liked or even as well they themselves had dealt with them other times, sure. And I've had extremely frustrating situations of fin insts, from my POV, just refusing to cooperate with me (I mentioned one awhile back with CIT Bank: they just kept rejecting transfer requests out of an IRA account for trivial reasons, first from Merrill then from Vanguard, who I put on the case because I've found them generally easiest to deal with among brokers I deal with, though not perfect: they finally got it done).

[fortywinks]

Thinking back on my experience with Vanguard the only mistakes ever made (just a few) involved money leaving Vanguard. Can't recall an instance where there was a mistake with money going in.

[humbledinvestor]

My main reason to post was to gauge and see if I really want to stay with them. No response from PAS advisor for a question asked last year, old school website and technology etc.

They had directed me to a form which clearly let's you list each fund. You can then decide the split is by % or dollars. I chose %. I double and tripled checked it. Upload the divorce decree and the agreement. Towards of the process they let you upload these. I even asked the rep on the phone: "Will they know what to do? What if they have a question?"

Reply from the rep: "Oh they know what to do, they do this a lot. If there is a question they will call you."

[Murgatroyd]

It’s not that a company makes a mistake. Mistakes are made. The only important thing is how said mistake is handled.

A great company admits it and fixes it promptly.

A poor company will continue to fumble the ball.

[orcycle]

About ten years ago, I feel that Vanguard made a mistake in advising us as we transferred funds from a deceased relative. While we weren’t PAS clients, we had a VG ‘team’ helping us with all the paperwork. It wasn’t until later that I discovered the RMD requirement and it was too late to take it by then. When I asked VG why they didn’t tell us about the RMD requirement, the rep said ‘it seemed you had other higher priorities.’ So they knew about it but chose not to tell us.

We took the RMD the next year, so two RMDs in one tax year, wrote a letter to the IRS, who didn’t penalize us, and we had to pay higher taxes because the combined RMDs bumped us up brackets.

VG apologized but didn’t do anything else, the rep disappeared, and we have stayed with VG through inertia. I recently opened a Fidelity business account to compare service, I feel it’s about the same. So it happens, I would check around and maybe you’re better off elsewhere. I think I’m staying at VG for now but I’m open to change.

[chipperd]

Op: sorry you are going through this stressful situation. Interesting your ex was one of the individuals who didn't say anything.

[Mudpuppy]

I am on the phone with them while the processor works to reverse the transaction. Now the processor via the advanced team wants to tell me that I made a mistake. The advance team member agrees with me. I told her that the processor just needs to reverse it and not question what is written in black and white in an agreement and Vanguard's transfer form.

Does that mean there's a typo on the form that you submitted to Vanguard?

Vanguard is working with you to solve the issue. I guess it's the best outcome you could hope for, right?

There is no typo. I reviewed it several times. But they want accuse me of a typo.

That's a pretty standard defensive response, aka "it wasn't me, it was you!" At work, the accounting department made a similar mistake (charging the wrong account due to a simple data entry error) and tried to pull this one on me. They changed their tune really quickly when I emailed a scan of my copy of the paperwork with the proper account highlighted and told them they needed to fix their mistake (and I CCed their boss and my boss while I was at it).

I assume you have copies of all paperwork that was submitted, which shows there was no typo on your part and the error is entirely on their part. Ask for a fax number or email address to send that proof. If you receive an unsatisfactory response, escalate up the corporate chain.

Then based on how you feel about the experience, decide what you want to do with the remaining assets once this issue is resolved.

[galawdawg]

Op: sorry you are going through this stressful situation. Interesting your ex was one of the individuals who didn't say anything.

Depending on when the transfer took place and where the ex-wife holds her investments, the funds may not yet be in her account. Even if they are, if she doesn't check her account frequently she may not be aware of it. Who knows, but it is hardly pertinent to OP's situation with Vanguard.

OP...did you and Vanguard reconnect or is it still unresolved?

[Katietsu]

It’s not that a company makes a mistake. Mistakes are made. The only important thing is how said mistake is handled.

A great company admits it and fixes it promptly.

A poor company will continue to fumble the ball.

I agree with this. The idea that anyone at any company is double checking the standard data entry seems naive to me. Read the post by TomatoTomahto who I think is a pretty knowledgeable source.

I have closed an account with a bank after multiple unforced errors that led me to believe there was a systemic issue. Probably should have reported them to a regulatory body by the end, but I just moved on.

[jrbdmb]

I suppose any institution can make errors. But their phone and customer service situations, from this and other posts, sound unacceptable, even accounting for Covid. I’ve had occasion to call various departments at Schwab, even during Covid, and always had prompt answers, competent reps, and solutions to my questions. My sympathies. And I too would not be “relaxed” about this.

Thanks. I 100% agree that the Covid excuse is unacceptable. So many companies have thrived and pivoted during Covid because of their culture. I know Vanguard has very old school culture that is not used to a lot of change. I have a Schwab account and they have been great!

Had to call back as the call dropped in the middle of a discussion with them. Clearly they have my number, but no one called me back. I had to call them.

Oh and 3 messages to my PAS advisor between 12/26 and yesterday. No reply.

I also understand that errors can occur, but it is how those errors are resolved that is the key. The fact that you recognized and reported the error on 12/26 and it is still unresolved on 01/08 is totally unacceptable.

[galawdawg]

It’s not that a company makes a mistake. Mistakes are made. The only important thing is how said mistake is handled.

A great company admits it and fixes it promptly.

A poor company will continue to fumble the ball.

I agree with this. The idea that anyone at any company is double checking the standard data entry seems naive to me. Read the post by TomatoTomahto who I think is a pretty knowledgeable source.

Whether it is common or not, the idea that a financial services company, such as a brokerage, would not require their employees handling transactions involving client-owned funds to double-check entries and compare them to what the client has on the paperwork before submitting them is ridiculous. Data entry in these industries must involve a meticulous attention to detail, the failure to simply require a "second look" before finalizing the transaction constitutes negligence which is a violation of the firm's fiduciary duty to its client. Vanguard funds pays the Vanguard Group about $6.3 billion annually for management, administrative, marketing and other expenses. Surely they can afford to spend the time necessary to implement and enforce appropriate procedures and safeguards to reduce human error in processing client transactions.

Perhaps some of the problem is due to Vanguard's antiquated website that requires clients to fill out paper forms and send them, rather than a screen that allows the client to enter the information, review it, and submit it for processing. A process that requires a Vanguard employee to take the data from a paper form and enter it into a computer is an additional step that introduces the possibility for error. A forward-thinking financial services company should anticipate such errors (particularly given TomatoTomahto's insights) and allow the client-facing technology to work to reduce the possibility of human-induced error by company employees.

No investor should lower their expectations or standards to accommodate a financial services company's inability or unwillingness to perform the services for which they are very-well compensated in a manner reflective of outstanding accuracy, workmanship and professionalism.

[sschoe2]

I had an error that was worse made by Bank of America. They took about 3 weeks to fix it. Relax. I am sure this happens all the time and they know how to fix it. In this age of social media we now hear and read about all the mistakes and errors that went unseen in the dark ages.

Given my experience with them dealing with my late mother's mortgage I am surprised they fixed it at all with out needing to file a CFPB complaint. That is what I ended up having to do. They are on my won't do business with list.

[sschoe2]

I had to transfer 47.6% of my rollover IRA as part of the equitable distribution agreement of my divorce. The agreement and the form which I filled out were very clear! 47.6% of 560k plus (whatever the market value is on that day), instead they gave her 76%!! No one even called my to clarify. Has anyone experienced them making errors? Now instead of working I am on hold trying to reverse this.

My simple advice having to deal with big companies is I understand if companies make a mistake like fat fingering something. I give them a chance to fix it. If after giving them a chance they don't fix it or act obstinate and arrogant then I start filing federal complaints and terminating all business with them if possible.