I feel like my friend is about to make a massive financial mistake

elliott1234 · Post by **elliott1234** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 am

Sooo... in a nutshell my friend, his girlfriend, and 3 of her siblings want to by land to start kind of a family compound/farm. They range from mid 20s to mid 30s. This isn't like a cocktail napkin thing they are quite far along in discussing it. Their plan is to form an LLC to purchase land and then build homes and start a farm. Now if each of the people involved was bringing roughly equal capital to the project I really wouldn't bat an eye, this isn't an unheard of thing for people to do. The issue is my friend is the only person in the group with any real assets and will be putting up most of the down payment. However the LLC is going to be split evenly among the 5 members, and I am pretty sure any bank would ask for personal guarantees if they were issuing a mortgage in this situation.

My concerns are pretty obvious, because of the equal distribution of the LLC my friend will be vaporizing a huge chunk of money immediately. And then down the road if he wanted to leave getting any money back from the LLC will probably be very difficult as it is not a typical business and all of the money will be tied up in the land and any houses they build.

I am not a real estate expert/lawyer but I feel like this arrangement is a terrible idea for my friend and unless he is 100% he is in it for the long haul he will get killed financially if he leaves. I don't really want to butt in because it isn't my place to but I felt like I needed to get this off my chest. Am I overreacting?

randybobandy · Post by **randybobandy** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:31 am

Sounds like a pretty bad idea but I would only offer any thoughts/advice/concerns if your friend asks.

--Randy Bo Bandy

climber2020 · Post by **climber2020** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:31 am

Let him do it, stand back, and watch the ship go down.

If you want to stay friends, there's no other option.

bugleheadd · Post by **bugleheadd** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 am

getting into business/real estate with a girlfriend and her siblings. no damn way.

Vtsax100 · Post by **Vtsax100** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:35 am

This guy is in for some real pain. Unfortunate.

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:38 am

You're pranking us, right?

Onlineid3089 · Post by **Onlineid3089** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:39 am

Sounds like an awful idea. Do any of them even know anything about farming?

bugleheadd · Post by **bugleheadd** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am

if he is the only one to pay the down payment... how does he get his money back, if the LLC is set up equally amongst everyone?

TheLaughingCow · Post by **TheLaughingCow** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am

Say nothing unless asked.

Wanderingwheelz · Post by **Wanderingwheelz** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:43 am

I’ll take the contrarian side and suggest you do say something to your friend, if this is a true good friend. I’d want to be told something if I was in your friends situation.

LFKB · Post by **LFKB** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:43 am

Say something once. Specify that you’re just trying to help and wanted to voice your concerns / things he should be aware of. Be nice, tell him it’s his decision ultimately but you wanted to give perspective. Then never say anything again.

sjt · Post by **sjt** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:43 am

How much do these people know about farming? Is the idea that the 5 people involved are going to work and manage the farm together?

I know very little about farming, but from what I read, family farming is being displaced by megacorps who run them as a lean corporation. It sounds like the whole "family farm" thing more difficult than it was 50 years ago. Maybe if they had some sort of trendy schtick like full organic or have some sort of B&B / microbrewery thing on site.

Sounds like your friend will have the most skin in the game and carry the risk. There's a chance things can go well, but in the end I think there's a much higher chance this adventure ends badly with family ties strained. I wish them all luck if they decide to move forward...

7eight9 · Post by **7eight9** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:43 am

Unsolicited advice is rarely appreciated.

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:45 am

If he's the only source of money, the least bad thing I can think of is the LLC borrows the money from him using the real estate as collateral.

I agree that as a friend, you are obligated to say something, at least once, and probably at most once. "You were right" is better than "Why didn't you tell me?"

JupiterJones · Post by **JupiterJones** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:48 am

bugleheadd wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 am getting into business/real estate with a girlfriend and her siblings. no damn way.

Seriously. Even without the bit about the guy putting up most of the starting capital, it sounds like something from that "Bad Idea Jeans" SNL commercial.

But if I were in the OP's shoes and if this guy really was a friend, I probably would feel compelled to say something. I wouldn't flat-out tell him he's "about to make a massive financial mistake" though.

Maybe couch it more like, "Look, I know you haven't asked for or need my advice on this deal, and I'm certainly no real estate expert, but as your friend I just wanted to make sure you're going into this with your eyes open." Then lay out the facts: He'll be putting in an unequal amount of capital for an equal stake, and it could be very difficult to back out of the deal. Don't say that those things are good or bad... just put them on the table, and let that be that.

Or better yet, if the OP does have some sort of connection to an actual professional who could review the deal and give the sort of unbiased, third-party advice that the friend would perhaps be more likely to listen to, maybe an offer to help set that up?

tainted-meat · Post by **tainted-meat** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:49 am

If I was about to make a really bad decision I hope someone would tell me about it! There's casual ways to say it if your buddy brings it up... I'd respond 'man that sounds really risky, I like to buys stock index mutual funds and hold them forever...I like buying things that make money and don't make me work...

ensign_lee · Post by **ensign_lee** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:51 am

"Hey look - before this decision becomes irreversible, I wanted to talk to you. The decision is ultimately yours and if you choose to go through with it, I'll be supportive, but I want you to know that this co-op idea sounds like a really big financial mistake.

Here's why

...

Anyway, again, this decision is yours and if you decide that you're still for it, I'll be supportive. This will be the last you'll hear from me about this. But I figured if roles were reversed, I'd appreciate you telling me before the ink was dry."

I'd say something if it was a close friend.

JBTX · Post by **JBTX** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:56 am

Agree it is horrible idea. But I'd be careful about if and how you give advice. If you feel compelled to say something, when he brings it up (or if he doesn't start with something "Hey how is your farm project progressing?)". Let him respond and say "well best of luck with that. No offense, but I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole." If he asks why, tell him. If he doesn't move on.

There has been a couple of times my young adult daughter has talked about going into ventures with others where she is the only one with any financial backing. The couple of times she did it has quickly failed and she's left holding the bag.

surfstar · Post by **surfstar** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:59 am

Make sure he turns it into a reality tv / docuseries at least. Monetize it.

Volkdancer · Post by **Volkdancer** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:00 am

This is absolutely none of your business.

mptfan · Post by **mptfan** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:01 am

Did your friend ask for your advice?

aristotelian · Post by **aristotelian** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 am

Human beings are weird. You just gotta shake your head sometimes.

quantAndHold · Post by **quantAndHold** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:06 am

I would suggest to the friend that since he’s the one with the cash, he should have his own lawyer representing his own interests when the LLC is being formed. The lawyer can work out how to protect his interests.

And then I would let it drop, and just be his friend.

SmileyFace · Post by **SmileyFace** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:06 am

I've spent a lifetime watching friends make pretty big financial mistakes - I don't push my views but if they bring up what they plan I do ask a few probing questions which might help them come to the right decision themselves. For instance - you could simply ask "Are you sure you trust these folks enough to do this? I don't think I would trust anyone enough to do such a move."
Then I quietly listen but don't push my views beyond a couple of questions. Of course this is all only when they bring the topic up.

Other questions I used in the past:
"Are you sure you should have ALL your children's educational future tied up in Lucent stock? I know it's hot now but what if there is a sudden shift."
"That investment property sounds great - but, wow, what a price tag. What happens if the housing market drops or if the area doesn't continue on it's current trajectory? Don't real estate agents always say it's a great time to buy and that markets are 'up and coming'?".

dbr · Post by **dbr** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:13 am

It's an obviously horrible idea from any variety of standpoints.

What you should do about it is a different discussion. If he is asking, then tell him he would be an idiot to do this. My point of view is that if he is talking to you about this but not asking, then tell him once that he would be an idiot to do it and then shut up.

I agree with the above post that if he does this he should have his own lawyer, if you dare tell him that.

humblecoder · Post by **humblecoder** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:14 am

This is a bad idea on so many levels, even beyond what you've already identified.

1. He is doing this with his GF, not wife, GF. Not sure what their level of commitment to each other is, but I would at least want to be married first. If they break up, they are still business partners, which is awkward.

2. Related to #1, he will be business partners with his GF and 3 of HER siblings, which would add to the awkwardness if their relationship sours.

3. I assume that your friend and his GF will get 1 house and the other siblings would get one house each? If so, then the two of you will have own 40% of the LLC but only essentially have 25% of the real estate (assuming each house is equal). How is that fair?

4. Are the houses going to be identical? If not, then there is a fairness aspect where if sibling #1 has a "better" house (bigger, more desirable location, etc), but still has an equal share of the LLC. How is that fair?

The only ones who are going to make any money on this scheme are the lawyers who will have to disentangle this mess when it goes south.

To be honest, the cynical side of me thinks that the siblings see your friend as mark in some sort of con. Maybe the GF is in on it. Who knows?

In most situations, I'd tell you to not offer your friend any unwanted advice, but this may be the exception. Don't tell him that he is being stupid, because nobody likes to here that. May be raise some of these questions to him to get him thinking, and hopefully he will make the right choice on his own. If not, then you can tell him that he is being stupid!

anoop · Post by **anoop** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:23 am

Reads like a movie plot with a familiar ending.

JackoC · Post by **JackoC** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:27 am

elliott1234 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 am 1. my friend, his girlfriend, and 3 of her siblings want to by land to start kind of a family compound/farm.
2. The issue is my friend is the only person in the group with any real assets and will be putting up most of the down payment. However the LLC is going to be split evenly among the 5 members,
3. and I am pretty sure any bank would ask for personal guarantees if they were issuing a mortgage in this situation.
4. because of the equal distribution of the LLC my friend will be vaporizing a huge chunk of money immediately.
5. And then down the road if he wanted to leave getting any money back from the LLC will probably be very difficult as it is not a typical business and all of the money will be tied up in the land and any houses they build.

It doesn't sound wise from the description. I'd just play semi-devil's advocate on some points
1, 2. In theory this could make sense if the person putting in more capital had less relevant expertise. 'Family compound/farm' is unclear. To the extent a for profit farming effort*, unequal capital contributions for equal LLC shares could (not saying it does in this case) make sense if there's enough offsetting difference in expertise in farming. To the extent 'compound', with a 'hobby farming' add on, then it just seems like a person providing free housing to their romantic partner (not unusual) but also 3 siblings (much more unusual).
3. They might be able to get 'non-recourse' financing though a) 'non recourse' in reality has 'carve outs' b) if friend's approach is similar to that in setting up the LLC he'll probably accept easier, lower cost financing with direct recourse to him.
4. No quibble there, that's arithmetic.
5. But this would true even if the capital contributions were equal or ownership % reflected the inequality in contribution: small businesses are illiquid. Also it suggests the big issues if they more 'fairly' set ownership stake proportional to capital contribution: would your friend have effective sole management authority as majority capital contributor? And if the other 4 members get next to no distribution from LLC profit, having contributed next to no capital, what's in for them to work for the LLC? Again this gets back though to 'farm' v 'family compound' lack of clarity.

Of course the object (business v residential) could be fundamentally muddled in their minds too, which would be another reason to deem it a bad idea even with equal capital contributions and shares.

Anyway I agree with previous responses saying the most you can do is politely ask questions calibrated to make your friend think twice, or just say you think it's a bad idea if asked whether it is.

*one of our grown kids works in small time commercial organic farming in the far outer NY area. That's a stable or growth business 'farm to table', in this part of the country. If OP's friend wanted to start a small family grain farm in Iowa with no previous experience that would be a much more fundamentally questionable business idea regardless of the LLC structure. Not that farming is easy, anywhere.

bugleheadd · Post by **bugleheadd** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:30 am

im curious if the gf and siblings have any jobs? how will they come up with the money to build homes, which would cost hundreds of thousands even in low COL areas, if they cant even come up with down payment to buy land? do they plan to live in tents? are they trying to earn income from farming? what kind of return on investment do they expect from farming?

Plot twist: OP is the "friend"

vitaflo · Post by **vitaflo** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:46 am

SmileyFace wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:06 am I've spent a lifetime watching friends make pretty big financial mistakes - I don't push my views but if they bring up what they plan I do ask a few probing questions which might help them come to the right decision themselves. For instance - you could simply ask "Are you sure you trust these folks enough to do this? I don't think I would trust anyone enough to do such a move."

I agree on questions but they don't even need to be that probing. Just feign ignorance and get him to explain to you why what he's doing makes sense. It can be as simple as "So am I right that you're saying you're putting up 100% of the proceeds but only getting 20% of the profits? How does that work?". Sometimes people need to explain themselves to a rational observer to understand they're being irrational. Even if he thinks this is all ok and explains it as such, you saying "that seems really weird to me" is probably enough. If he doesn't see the error of his ways with that you may just need to let him try and fail at it.

Watty · Post by **Watty** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:53 am

elliott1234 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 am I am not a real estate expert/lawyer but ......

Am I overreacting?

Your concerns are very valid.

If I was in your situation I would try to get him to a lawyer that specializes in real estate and farm law to get their input about all the potential problems. Basically I would take the approach that if you are going to do this then you should do this right.

People often post questions about buying a normal house with a boyfriend or girlfriend that they are not married to and that can be a minefield that is difficult to untangle when they break up. That alone would be a good reason to have a lawyer involved to set up paperwork on how to handle the property.

A huge problem is that even if he gets lucky and things are working well then sooner or later something will happens like one of the people involved dies, gets married, gets divorced, moves away, gets into financial problems, etc and it will be a mess. The lawyer should draw up paperwork before they proceed that details how these types of situations will be handled.

One other thing to watch out for is that if any of them do something like grow pot then the land can be seized so if that is a possibility then they should talk with the lawyer to figure out a way to help protect the property.

It would also be good to suggest that they talk to someone like a local farm extension office about their farming plans. Having some chickens and a garden is one thing but setting up an operational farm from scratch that can support five people(plus future spouses and kids) is really a big project that could cost over a million dollars real easy between the cost of the land and equipment. Even people that were raised on a farm and love farming often get out of farming when they are that age just because they cannot afford a farm of their own. They should have a good business plan for that.

If you take the approach that you are trying to help him do this right so that it will work, and not just trying to tell him he is an idiot, then he might be more receptive to that.

Dottie57 · Post by **Dottie57** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:53 am

Wanderingwheelz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:43 am I’ll take the contrarian side and suggest you do say something to your friend, if this is a true good friend. I’d want to be told something if I was in your friends situation.

+1. Don’t argue but do express your concerns in a clear calm manner. He may have told you because he has doubts and needs some backup.

elliott1234 · Post by **elliott1234** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:01 pm

Thanks for all the replies pretty much confirmed what I was thinking...

Part of the disconnect is they collectively have a very different viewpoint than I do, I think capitalism in its current form is problematic in lots of ways but I "play by the rules" so to speak so that I won't be eating cat food when I retire. They more fundamentally reject it and specifically feel like they want to have a different way of doing things in their own life i.e. the person with the most money having more control. A few people alluded to the cost of starting a farm/building homes. This concerns me also, even if they are building tiny homes or living in a trailer that adds up fast especially with utilities.

I am not the "friend" in the scenario haha. But I did have a small business with a girlfriend in a past life and when it went south we owed $10,000 worth of cash/product to customers and we had to spend a miserable year running the business and getting it squared away before I could get away. I kind of decided then I would never put myself in a situation where someone or something else had financial control over my life.

mr_brightside · Post by **mr_brightside** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:04 pm

i agree it sounds like a train wreck in the making

i'd have exactly ONE conversation with him over a beer calmly laying out a few negative key points and leave it at that

not seeing any way this ends up as a good decision but some people have to learn the hard way

------------------------------------

Teague · Post by **Teague** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:10 pm

The only worse idea would be for you to involve yourself, like trying to talk them out of it.

They're young and bankruptcy could be an option for them down the line. You're their friend, not their financial advisor.

yohac · Post by **yohac** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:13 pm

So, basically a commune but made even less economically viable with separate homes. Wow. I would ask just once "Would you like my opinion?" and then drop it forever.

elliott1234 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:01 pm They more fundamentally reject (capitalism) and specifically feel like they want to have a different way of doing things in their own life

And their plan to reject capitalism depends on your friend spending a load of money. Seeing a little irony there.

cs412a · Post by **cs412a** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:17 pm

quantAndHold wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:06 am I would suggest to the friend that since he’s the one with the cash, he should have his own lawyer representing his own interests when the LLC is being formed. The lawyer can work out how to protect his interests.

And then I would let it drop, and just be his friend.

This exactly.

cogito · Post by **cogito** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:19 pm

I agree with the people who say to express your concerns, rationally, once. After that don't bring it up again unless he asks. If he's a friend you care about, you have an obligation to offer some words of wisdom to try and keep him from disaster, that's literally what friends are for. For some reason bogleheads have a very live-and-let-die approach to money and friendships, but if you can try to help your friend think through some various scenarios, you may not even have to actually say anything negative, just be there as a voice of reason.

For example, last week my unemployed brother-in-law told us he is using a loan from a failed Amazon FBA business to get into daytrading options with a "can't-lose system" he just discovered. This is objectively a bad idea and I would feel almost liable if I stood by and didn't even bring up what I know is near-certain impending financial ruin. I mentioned to him some various reasons, and he wasn't interested, so I'll leave it alone, but hey, I did what I could. He's family and I care about him.

BrooklynInvest · Post by **BrooklynInvest** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:20 pm

If it were a CLOSE friend of mine -

"Wow. That's an ambitious undertaking and a massive commitment with someone else's family. Walk me through how it's gonna work. Are you all contributing equally or are you getting different slices of the pie based on the money? What happens when someone wants or needs to get out given that there's only four parties involved and you're all financially dependent on each other? Who's round is it?"

if it weren't a close friend of mine -

"Wow. Who's round is it?"

Hebell · Post by **Hebell** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:23 pm

LLC's can be written with buy-sell agreements to address the types of inequities that the OP is talking about. For example it could say that your friend could buy back a member interest at a dollar per acre or disclaim it. It could set up a person with first right of refusal, second right of refusal excetera. Llc's can have lots of handcuffs put on them if you want.

Lots of people here seem to think an LLC makes everyone equal. It does not have to be that way; an organization can choose to adopt quite a number of member restrictions at its formation or by amendment thereafter. The Buy-sell agreement, is one of the most commonly used, for issues just like this

makingmistakes · Post by **makingmistakes** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 pm

TheLaughingCow wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am Say nothing unless asked.

I’m curious why so many people feel this way. I appreciate advice from friends. Having someone bring up potential pitfalls is something I would be thankful for.

Teague · Post by **Teague** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:29 pm

makingmistakes wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 pm
TheLaughingCow wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:40 am Say nothing unless asked.
I’m curious why so many people feel this way. I appreciate advice from friends. Having someone bring up potential pitfalls is something I would be thankful for.

You are atypical.

BogleFan510 · Post by **BogleFan510** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:39 pm

I would not advise him on the merits of the deal, but rather insisist that he consult with an independent legal advisor before signing anything.

If they seek advise, suggest not investing without direct management control. He could be managing partner until debts paid back, even if equity is split among the 5 after initial capital is returned.

Relevant sad story https://www.forbes.com/sites/angelauyeu ... cdd12e4f22

alpine_boglehead · Post by **alpine_boglehead** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:40 pm

elliott1234 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:01 pm They more fundamentally reject it [capitalism] and specifically feel like they want to have a different way of doing things in their own life i.e. the person with the most money having more control.

Then one of the questions (as others suggested asking questions would be good way to approach it) would be to reframe the situation, i.e. move away from the money (fairness is not a question of capitalism/money), like "Would it be fair if you had to build all the houses while the others did almost nothing?"

Even if everyone contributed the same amount, it would still be a big commitment. He should be very certain that the relationship is long-term. Another question to ask - if he backed out of the project now, would they still be together?

If anything goes wrong, he'll be losing it all. He'll be a minority shareholder with the others being four siblings (blood is thicker ...).

I'd also suggest to bring this up once, discuss it in earnest, and then leave it be.

It's very hard ... at some point you just have to be a friend and let things go their way. I know ... I saw family members making big mistakes and couldn't do anything about it (apart from suggestions/advice), but one thing to do was to preserve the relationship.

humbledinvestor · Post by **humbledinvestor** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:54 pm

elliott1234 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:01 pm Thanks for all the replies pretty much confirmed what I was thinking...

Part of the disconnect is they collectively have a very different viewpoint than I do, I think capitalism in its current form is problematic in lots of ways but I "play by the rules" so to speak so that I won't be eating cat food when I retire. They more fundamentally reject it and specifically feel like they want to have a different way of doing things in their own life i.e. the person with the most money having more control. A few people alluded to the cost of starting a farm/building homes. This concerns me also, even if they are building tiny homes or living in a trailer that adds up fast especially with utilities.

I am not the "friend" in the scenario haha. But I did have a small business with a girlfriend in a past life and when it went south we owed $10,000 worth of cash/product to customers and we had to spend a miserable year running the business and getting it squared away before I could get away. I kind of decided then I would never put myself in a situation where someone or something else had financial control over my life.

Have you shared this story with your friend?

Tamalak · Post by **Tamalak** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:59 pm

Definitely say something once. I'm okay with people making huge mistakes, but they ought to be warned it's a mistake first. I'm a little shocked at those suggesting that you not take a moment to give your friend a potentially life saving perspective. I don't know what the purpose of a friend is, if not that. Say something once, express your concerns clearly, then respect his decision about it. Don't argue. If he shuts you down then meekly get shut down.

Your friend doesn't have to be 'pro capitalism' to get the idea that he's about to give up a massive pile of resources in exchange for a bunch of unenforceable promises. That is never a good idea.

GoldenFinch · Post by **GoldenFinch** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:03 pm

bugleheadd wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 am getting into business/real estate with a girlfriend and her siblings. no damn way.

Exactly. If she is not his wife, this idea is terrible. If she was his wife, it would still likely be problematic.

Ask him if it would bother him if he lost everything and whether that is a possibility (it is).

Mr. Rumples · Post by **Mr. Rumples** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:06 pm

I am not good at nuances. When something like this happens, I flat out ask them if they are just telling me or do they want my opinion.

Normchad · Post by **Normchad** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:07 pm

Oh my gosh. You had me in the first sentence then it just got worse.

Tell your friend to just set his money on fire. It won’t be as messy or painful as what he’s planning.......

galawdawg · Post by **galawdawg** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:15 pm

Nie mój cyrk, nie moje malpy.