Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

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Mofire
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Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Mofire »

Do you recall when you started using charter, NetJets, WheelsUp, etc.? At some net worth, income level, or other metric?
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by White Coat Investor »

Haven't started yet. I guess we could afford it, but old habits die hard. We still fly coach! You look at those prices for too long and you start thinking about getting your own license and airplane.
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medic
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by medic »

When that level of convenience is necessary. We could afford it, but rarely need that level of accecss.

My megacorp execs have access to those services, but even they only use it when they're required to get somewhere that a major airliners won't cover in the timeline they need. For example, they need to get from HQ on the west cost to Detroit, New York, and DC the next day. Multiple execs flying (corp policy on how many on each flight). Or when they need the privacy (e.g. discussing merger or flying with prospective partner and need to stay off the radar).
tim1999
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by tim1999 »

Short of winning a lotto jackpot, it isn't going to happen for me.
MarkerFM
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by MarkerFM »

We have chartered jets in the past when we felt we needed to (take young kids to their grandparent's to watch them for a weekend while we went away, take family to a memorial service in a place without good scheduled service, etc.). With COVID, this year we decided to charter a jet to take us between our summer and winter places, both of which are in relatively remote areas without great scheduled air choices. After considering our financial position and how much our children will inherit, we decided to buy a NetJets card with my brother to use for our back and forth trips between houses. It's actually 40% cheaper than the nominal cost because that's money we won't have to pay estate taxes on. (I know that ignores investment earnings if we don't spend it, but that would also have estate tax on top).

So there's no financial metric for us. Just a decision about how we want to spend our money and our time.
Gabelli2020
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Gabelli2020 »

Lamar Hunt always flew coach, and so will I. (Except when I get a free upgrade via my United status)
paulsalem
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by paulsalem »

If you're considering charter consider buying your own small plane and staffing with a pilot on a per day basis. In the long run it will be much cheaper.

Most people don't realize how affordable small aircraft ownership can be when compared with fractional or charter.

Reach out if you have any questions. I'm a professional pilot for a mega Corp, not an airplane salesman or anything so don't worry about a sales pitch.
Outer Marker
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Outer Marker »

paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:37 am If you're considering charter consider buying your own small plane and staffing with a pilot on a per day basis. In the long run it will be much cheaper.

Most people don't realize how affordable small aircraft ownership can be when compared with fractional or charter.

Reach out if you have any questions. I'm a professional pilot for a mega Corp, not an airplane salesman or anything so don't worry about a sales pitch.
:shock: :shock: :shock: As a fellow aviation professional and with experience both flying the line and from the management side, I promise you this is not remotely true. That's why fractionals and charters exist - to spread the enormous capital and overhead costs out over many users. Owning an airplane is extrodinarily expensive, even if you fly it yourself. My single biggest financial indulgence.
paulsalem
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by paulsalem »

Outer Marker wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:08 pm
paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:37 am If you're considering charter consider buying your own small plane and staffing with a pilot on a per day basis. In the long run it will be much cheaper.

Most people don't realize how affordable small aircraft ownership can be when compared with fractional or charter.

Reach out if you have any questions. I'm a professional pilot for a mega Corp, not an airplane salesman or anything so don't worry about a sales pitch.
:shock: :shock: :shock: As a fellow aviation professional and with experience both flying the line and from the management side, I promise you this is not remotely true. That's why fractionals and charters exist - to spread the enormous capital and overhead costs out over many users. Owning an airplane is extrodinarily expensive, even if you fly it yourself. My single biggest financial indulgence.
If you compare apples to apples you're right. But if you're using Wheels up to 5 or less people 750 miles or less somewhat regularly you'd be better off getting a fast piston.

A Wheels Up king Air is around $5,000 /hr plus all the membership fees. That's a lot of money if you're using it to fly 2 people on trips like NYC to Hilton Head 4-6 times a year.
Outer Marker
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Outer Marker »

paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:14 pm If you compare apples to apples you're right. But if you're using Wheels up to 5 or less people 750 miles or less somewhat regularly you'd be better off getting a fast piston.

A Wheels Up king Air is around $5,000 /hr plus all the membership fees. That's a lot of money if you're using it to fly 2 people on trips like NYC to Hilton Head 4-6 times a year.
The apples to apples part is key. If you're in the market for NetJets, you're not going to be happy in a Beech Bonanza droning along in the weather at low altitude for hours with no bathroom, horderves, or champaign. Wheels Up doesn't sound like a particularly good deal. One of my old clients, Sentient Jet offers a card for 25 hours a year for $5,480/hr on a jet. https://fly.sentient.com/be-ready-commercial/

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paulsalem
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by paulsalem »

Outer Marker wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:42 pm The apples to apples part is key. If you're in the market for NetJets, you're not going to be happy in a Beech Bonanza droning along in the weather at low altitude for hours with no bathroom, horderves, or champaign.
Disagree with this, especially for the people on this forum. The thread is about people who are deciding between airline and charter. It's not about horderves or champaign (see post #2).

I agree with the rest of your post though.
MarkerFM
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by MarkerFM »

paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:48 pm
Outer Marker wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:42 pm The apples to apples part is key. If you're in the market for NetJets, you're not going to be happy in a Beech Bonanza droning along in the weather at low altitude for hours with no bathroom, horderves, or champaign.
Disagree with this, especially for the people on this forum. The thread is about people who are deciding between airline and charter. It's not about horderves or champaign (see post #2).

I agree with the rest of your post though.
I'm going to offer a different perspective. My wife is claustrophobic and will not fly on anything smaller than something she can almost stand up in, which means a mid-size jet or larger. So, that's the NetJets plane we chose. A King Air, Pilatus PC-12 or even a Phenom 300 wouldn't work for us.
riplip
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by riplip »

MarkerFM wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:59 pm
paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:48 pm
I'm going to offer a different perspective. My wife is claustrophobic and will not fly on anything smaller than something she can almost stand up in, which means a mid-size jet or larger. So, that's the NetJets plane we chose. A King Air, Pilatus PC-12 or even a Phenom 300 wouldn't work for us.
MarkerFM, I am currently reviewing Jet Card Options. Did you look at any of the other companies (FlexJet, XO, Magellan,Sentinent)? I am impressed with NJ but they are considerably higher priced than most of their competition. Obviously they are the Gold Standard so to speak, but it seems like a lot of the other companies are catching up.
CWhea1775
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by CWhea1775 »

Will never get to this point myself, but to go back to the original question I would think that if the annual entry point is something like Sentient - 25-HOUR PRICE: $147,275; HOURLY RATE: $5,891, then wouldn't the "when I switched question" for a Boglehead be something like "$147k is only X times what I am paying for air travel each year now, and for this increase I get Y improvement in services, convenience, privacy, (or whatever other factors are important to you), so it's worth it and a good value for me.
OldBallCoach
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by OldBallCoach »

I use Wheels up when our University plane is in use elsewhere and I have found them to be pretty good...personally I like the King Air and for shorter runs they seem to do really well. I have never had any issue with lack of service or equipment failures. If you can travel by charter it sure is easier for sure.
MarkerFM
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by MarkerFM »

riplip wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:11 pm
MarkerFM wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:59 pm
paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:48 pm
I'm going to offer a different perspective. My wife is claustrophobic and will not fly on anything smaller than something she can almost stand up in, which means a mid-size jet or larger. So, that's the NetJets plane we chose. A King Air, Pilatus PC-12 or even a Phenom 300 wouldn't work for us.
MarkerFM, I am currently reviewing Jet Card Options. Did you look at any of the other companies (FlexJet, XO, Magellan,Sentinent)? I am impressed with NJ but they are considerably higher priced than most of their competition. Obviously they are the Gold Standard so to speak, but it seems like a lot of the other companies are catching up.
Yes, mostly FlexJet and Magellan. These are all companies (except FlexJet has some of its own planes) I believe that are packaging charter flights on other peoples' planes for the most part. You have to remember you are making these companies an unsecured loan until you use the hours.

Overall, I think the safety of the best card companies is pretty comparable to NJ. But, it's hard to beat the NetJets quality story, and their pictures of little kids and puppies on the planes are Grade A string-pullers. That being said, on one flight on a busy day, NetJets substituted a charter flight. It was an upgraded plane and we were fine with the operator (and pilots including a very impressive female captain). Catering not quite as good, but the plane was very nice including a sofa for a brief nap. On the other hand, most other flights have been upgrades on NetJets metal compared to the plane we bought. That's always nice, sometimes very nice (e.g. Latitude instead of an XLS/Excel).

All these companies right now are running flat out because of demand. Corporate demand has been more than taken up by regular travel. NetJets I know is running record volumes and ordering new planes.

Before you commit, you really need to dial into the kind of plane you need for your group size, spaciousness preference, distance and airport capabilities and then compare programs that will deliver the optimum combination. No need to buy more plane than you need and you don't want to be sold on something less. Run, do not walk, from a salesman/company who won't help you work through that. The ability to move up or down is helpful, but it will cost you. For example, NetJets is about a 20% penalty in hours if you upgrade or downgrade from the card you bought. Try to negotiate pricing, but don't expect much. Maybe they will throw in a guaranteed upgrade on a few flights or an hour or two, but that's it. Today, maybe nothing.
Ependytis
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Ependytis »

Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
Cruise
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Cruise »

Ependytis wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:51 pm Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
I know a little bit about pilot recruitment, compensation and retention. All else being equal, I try to fly on the largest and most expensive planes in the commercial aviation space, for that is where the most experienced and quality pilots are flying.
jbmitt
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by jbmitt »

Ependytis wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:51 pm Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
Clearly you know nothing about part 135 operations. It’s regulated, not as tight as 121 but most bigger operators have access to everything that an airline does.

Your anecdotal story could happen to any pilot in a hurry or skipping a walk around.

The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
MarkerFM
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by MarkerFM »

jbmitt wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:06 am
The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
And also avoid the crazy people on board, the sometimes surly airline staff, the waiting around, the flights that are suddenly cancelled because there is no crew, or a direct flight that suddenly changes to a connection, and the ability to bring a pet, and also lots of stuff without worrying how you packed because it will be handled with care, the ability to drive right up to the plane and have your stuff loaded without you touching it.
SQRT
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by SQRT »

I read somewhere that the average net worth of private jet service users was $85 million. So, given that I would think that somewhere around $50 million might be a starting point. If the cost starts at about $150k/year that seems plausible to me. Sorry I don’t have a reference.

Of course, everyone has their own tastes/ideas in this regard. If your travel is mostly overseas, I’m not sure these services work as well. Also, I view the question from the point of view of a retired person who is effectively on a fixed income supported by his net worth. If you are still employed making mid 7 figures, the calculus would be different.
f35phixer
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by f35phixer »

We fly United, I can fly for free in USA and about 200 for International. Track loads, when first/Biz class open we book, granted you are standby, but if loads are light, no problem. Polaris class is the bomb on long flights !!!
neilpilot
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by neilpilot »

MarkerFM wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:37 am
jbmitt wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:06 am
The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
And also avoid the crazy people on board, the sometimes surly airline staff, the waiting around, the flights that are suddenly cancelled because there is no crew, or a direct flight that suddenly changes to a connection, and the ability to bring a pet, and also lots of stuff without worrying how you packed because it will be handled with care, the ability to drive right up to the plane and have your stuff loaded without you touching it.
Of course a major advantage is to fly on your schedule, not the airlines. To the airport you prefer. There are over 5k public airports in the USA, and only a fraction are served by the airlines.
Ependytis
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Ependytis »

jbmitt wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:06 am
Ependytis wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:51 pm Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
Clearly you know nothing about part 135 operations. It’s regulated, not as tight as 121 but most bigger operators have access to everything that an airline does.

Your anecdotal story could happen to any pilot in a hurry or skipping a walk around.

The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
According to the attached reference, chartered flights have 9.4 times as many crashes as commercial flights. I think dealing with TSA, connections, and leaving out of specific airports Is a small price to pay for safety.

https://rmas.fad.harvard.edu/pages/char ... aircraft-0
jbmitt
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by jbmitt »

Ependytis wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:26 pm
jbmitt wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:06 am
Ependytis wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:51 pm Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
Clearly you know nothing about part 135 operations. It’s regulated, not as tight as 121 but most bigger operators have access to everything that an airline does.

Your anecdotal story could happen to any pilot in a hurry or skipping a walk around.

The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
According to the attached reference, chartered flights have 9.4 times as many crashes as commercial flights. I think dealing with TSA, connections, and leaving out of specific airports Is a small price to pay for safety.

https://rmas.fad.harvard.edu/pages/char ... aircraft-0
Theres risk to everything. Charter to Commercial Airlines isn't an apples to apples comparison. I'll put my aeronautical science degree and my flight ratings up against yours.
RTF
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by RTF »

jbmitt wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:34 pm
Ependytis wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:26 pm
jbmitt wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:06 am
Ependytis wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:51 pm Chartered jets don’t have as good of a safety record that commercial airlines do. Plus, given the amount you’re paying, you could fly first class on a commercial airline. I imagine since they don’t deal with the same volume of flights they also don’t have the training, personnel, or systems in place to manage the airline.

I had a friend that had access to the corporate jet. She indicated that the pilot accidentally left his jacket on the plane wing. On takeoff, the jacket was sucked into the engine and destroyed it. Needless to say, he was fired but still come on.
Clearly you know nothing about part 135 operations. It’s regulated, not as tight as 121 but most bigger operators have access to everything that an airline does.

Your anecdotal story could happen to any pilot in a hurry or skipping a walk around.

The entire point of chartering is to skip the TSA/terminal experience and avoid connections. It also allows key people the opportunity to work uninterrupted and offer the ability to work on private/sensitive items.

Traveling by private jets is not for everyone, but works very well for those who utilize it.
According to the attached reference, chartered flights have 9.4 times as many crashes as commercial flights. I think dealing with TSA, connections, and leaving out of specific airports Is a small price to pay for safety.

https://rmas.fad.harvard.edu/pages/char ... aircraft-0
Theres risk to everything. Charter to Commercial Airlines isn't an apples to apples comparison. I'll put my aeronautical science degree and my flight ratings up against yours.

I’m also a professional in this space and just wanted to chime in on something. The training and SOPs that go on between 135 and 121 is vastly different. I’m not sure how many 121 initials at different airlines you’ve been through, but it’s a different world then showing up at Flight Safety, CAE etc and doing a 3 week type.

I’m certainly not saying that 121/airline pilots are better because of it, just that the training and the “weeding out” process isn’t remotely the same.
jharkin
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by jharkin »

tim1999 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:21 pm Short of winning a lotto jackpot, it isn't going to happen for me.
+1. Even when I am fully retired in 15-20 I doubt I’ll be able to justify the cost of business class other than maybe a couple ‘once in a lifetime’ indulgences. Much less first class… much less a private jet. I flew charter exactly once in my life when my employer chartered a small fleet of 737s to fly the entire company to a multi day event ( and I guarantee you that was not to be luxurious, at that scale it was probably cheaper and easier than booking a few thousand coach tickets).

This thread is yet another reminder to me how far away I am from the rarified 1% life many members here live. :( We need to start a BH for normal people subforum.
Last edited by jharkin on Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
punkinhead
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by punkinhead »

paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:37 am If you're considering charter consider buying your own small plane and staffing with a pilot on a per day basis. In the long run it will be much cheaper.

Most people don't realize how affordable small aircraft ownership can be when compared with fractional or charter.
By "small aircraft" I assume you're talking about a piston twin. The problem is they don't have the service ceiling or range to do a lot of trips where weather is a factor, which is pretty common. It sucks having to spend an extra day at some podunk airport or driving home because a storm rolls through. Then there are all the times you can't go because the plane is down for maintenance which, like for a boat, is non-stop. I'm not against plane ownership (I own two) but most non-pilots don't want to hear that they are stranded or can't go some place because of bad weather or the plane is in the shop. They want to know there are backup planes available and those planes can get above or around the weather.
NYCaviator
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by NYCaviator »

Outer Marker wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:08 pm
paulsalem wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:37 am If you're considering charter consider buying your own small plane and staffing with a pilot on a per day basis. In the long run it will be much cheaper.

Most people don't realize how affordable small aircraft ownership can be when compared with fractional or charter.

Reach out if you have any questions. I'm a professional pilot for a mega Corp, not an airplane salesman or anything so don't worry about a sales pitch.
:shock: :shock: :shock: As a fellow aviation professional and with experience both flying the line and from the management side, I promise you this is not remotely true. That's why fractionals and charters exist - to spread the enormous capital and overhead costs out over many users. Owning an airplane is extrodinarily expensive, even if you fly it yourself. My single biggest financial indulgence.
Agreed! And you also can't compare a owning "small plane" to the jets and turboprops charter companies fly. Owning an airplane - no matter how small - is incredibly expensive, and I don't see anyone in the market for a jet charter thinking that owning a small piston twin is even remotely comparable (unless you love to fly!).

Most people don't realize that the majority of small and the smaller mid-size jets really aren't that comfortable, and the biggest reasons for chartering aircraft privacy/security, departing/arriving on your own schedule, and to get to airports not served by commercial airlines. Obviously you have to be able to afford it, but I don't think its as easy as saying "I am worth X therefore I should start chartering a plane." You need to understand why you'd want/need to charter a plane. If you are flying from NY to LA, you're probably going to be much more comfortable in commercial first class with a lie flat bed than a charter aircraft, unless you spend the big bucks for a big plane.
grkmec
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by grkmec »

Fellow pilot here… the question that should be asked is what’s the mission? Are we talking NYC to Nantucket or Missoula, MT to Miami? How many people and what’s the payload? Once you have this info, you can do a real cost benefit analysis between flying commercial, fractional, owning a plane in partnership, sole ownership, and then cost vs. time saved.

If your mission is NYC to LAX, then it probably makes more sense to just fly first class on the majors
afan
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by afan »

I doubt it is fair to compare crash rates for private flying to the charter services. Many of those private planes are amateur pilots flying themselves. At least with a charter you get a professional who flies somewhat regularly. For those private planes, I gather it is up to the owner to decide when to do maintenance. God forbid, some probably do it themselves.

I do as little flying as I can, thank you COVID, but I don't like being on even smaller commercial jets. Under 50 seats and I am looking for a different flight.

I can understand going charter or private, with a pro in the cockpit, if circumstances require it for business. Otherwise, I would gladly put up with the hassle of commercial to increase the odds on getting there alive. 9.4x the risk is a huge difference.
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snackdog
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by snackdog »

Given most of us spend around 10% of our annual budget on travel, $150k annual flight expenses would imply a spending level starting at $1.5 million/yr. If retired, it implies savings of $50 million at 3% SWR.

At $5k/hr you are getting 30 hours of travel on a plane which carries 5-6 people for $150k/yr. The apples-to-apples comparison of what that money gets you on the bus with the rest of us, would be, say, first class travel. Domestically, first class runs $500/hour and internationally around $1000/hour PER PERSON. If you fly from an airport with good first class lounges (SFO, ORD, NYC, IAH, LAX, etc) and have TSA-pre then the airport experience can be managed.

For $150k/yr one could -
- fly first class RT SFO-NYC 60 times or a family of five 12 times.
vs - charter an entry level NetJet for family of five, SFO-NYC RT 3 times (10 hours RT * $5k/hr)

- fly first class RT SFO-LHR 15 times or a family of five 3 times.
vs - charter a mid-size Netjet for a family of five, SF0-LHR once (21 hours RT * $7k/hr).

If you are flying from fringe airports, it may be different. Going from Santa Fe to the Hamptons with a family of 5 and a couple pets every other month, you may prefer charters.
vandering
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by vandering »

@ snackdog, good summary. Someone threw out 50 M as good entry level and these are the numbers I'm looking at. According to dgydj.com, 17.5M gets you to 0.5%. Estate tax exclusion for a couple is 23M. The 0.1% starts @43M. Anything you don't give away in life past 23M (for a couple) will potentially get taxed @ 40% which is a consideration in the cost benefit analysis. I think a Net Jets membership starts to make sense @ 30M. We also avail ourselves of business class for any flight over 3 hours. This is a very personal decision. We prioritize comfortable travel and hope to do a lot more as we slow down professionally.
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Just sayin...
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Just sayin... »

Every now and then, I’ll run the numbers and just can’t make the case for flying private. A friend runs a small flying service and, rarely, will be dead-heading so someplace I’m going, so I’ll catch a ride (ok, it’s happened exactly once over the past three years). So, for < 2-3 hours duration, I’ll fly coach. Anything more, I’ll bump up to whatever’s next (business or first) for the extra room. That said, we’ve been driving more for trips typically under 1k miles, so our local flying has dropped to about once a year.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

Many years ago, before I met Mr. Bogle, I read that he always flew in Coach Class to save company expenses for his shareholders. This was so unusual for a top executive, that the first time I visited Mr. Bogle I quietly asked Emily, his secretary, if this was true. She replied, "yes, it's true."

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's words of wisdom: "Our imperial chief executives, with all their fame, their jet planes, their perquisites, their pension plans, their club dues, their Park Avenue apartments, appear to have forgotten that they are employees of the corporation's owners."
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Jeepergeo
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Jeepergeo »

There are good people and great people in this world, and then there are truly great people in this world too. Though I never met Mr. Bogle, I've read and heard enough about him to know he was one of the few truly great people in the world and there are many that are both better and better off because of him.

Taylor Larimore wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:19 am Bogleheads:

Many years ago, before I met Mr. Bogle, I read that he always flew in Coach Class to save company expenses for his shareholders. This was so unusual for a top executive, that the first time I visited Mr. Bogle I quietly asked Emily, his secretary, if this was true. She replied, "yes, it's true."

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's words of wisdom: "Our imperial chief executives, with all their fame, their jet planes, their perquisites, their pension plans, their club dues, their Park Avenue apartments, appear to have forgotten that they are employees of the corporation's owners."
Invictus002
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Invictus002 »

Wow! Just realized, there are many members in this forum with NW in the $50MM range!

Even the fact of paying for business class for long haul flights for a family of 4 once a year, is something I think a lot about and which I have not done yet, though I have the means to.

People here are talking about multiples of that!

Well, it looks like lots of hedge fund managers, top docs, top CEOs are here!

Makes me feel humbled. :|
novemberrain
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by novemberrain »

+1
I never knew there were so many 50M+ people in this group . Wow. Quite the inspiration
afan
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by afan »

Not sure this thread has documented the networth of anyone, let alone of a substantial number of forum participants.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by paulsalem »

Professional pilot here and certified corporate aircraft manager. You need to figure out how many hours you plan on flying.

As a rule of thumb:
100 to 150 hours annually, charter is probably the best option from a cost standpoint.
100 to 300 hours annually joint (partnership) or fractional ownership makes good economic sense.
For above 250hours, efficiencies of scale begin to make full ownership or leasing more attractive
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by White Coat Investor »

novemberrain wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:25 pm +1
I never knew there were so many 50M+ people in this group . Wow. Quite the inspiration
There is a massive range of income and net worth on this forum. There always has been. I remember reading the $5,000 watch thread years ago and thinking how that was so wasteful. A decade later I bought a wakeboat, which is an order of magnitude more wasteful.

You're welcome here with an $800 million net worth and an 8 figure income and you're welcome here with a - $200,000 net worth and a 5 figure income. Not every thread will apply to you at every point in your life, but that's okay. Just take what you find useful and leave the rest.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
Archimedes
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Archimedes »

Personally, I’m just happy that we have loosened the purse strings enough to fly domestic first and international business. But we do live within less than an hour of multiple major international airports.
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snackdog
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by snackdog »

Archimedes wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:01 pm Personally, I’m just happy that we have loosened the purse strings enough to fly domestic first and international business. But we do live within less than an hour of multiple major international airports.
We do at times but within reason, e,g. flights over 8 hours or red-eye schedules provided the differential cost for a lie-flat bed is less than about $75/hr vs premium economy. Being able to sleep comfortably makes a big difference in order to function on arrival even if just to safely operate a vehicle in an unfamiliar location.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by AerialWombat »

I’ve looked at some of the lower entry point jet cards in recent years for my extensive business travel (pre-COVID), and despite the allure of convenience, I just couldn’t bring myself to pull the trigger.

I’ll absolutely never fly coach again, though. Domestic first or international business only for the last several years.

I used to own a Cessna 150. Long time ago, when I was poor. Stupidest thing I ever bought. Loved that little putt-putt plane, though. I doubt I will ever own again, but every time I see a Cirrus SR22T at a fly-in, I drool just a little bit.
For entertainment purposes only.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by Seasonal »

Private jets are convenient, but the pricing for long haul is a bit much. For example, based on https://elevatecharter.com/charter-estimate and https://www.evojets.com/charter-flight-cost-calculator/, NY to Paris is around $100,000 round trip. Business for two people is usually 10% to 15% of that, sometimes less.

For a larger family group flying a shorter distance, I can see why private would be appealing. It's very nice to arrive at an airport, get on a plane and go.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by SQRT »

snackdog wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:20 am Given most of us spend around 10% of our annual budget on travel, $150k annual flight expenses would imply a spending level starting at $1.5 million/yr. If retired, it implies savings of $50 million at 3% SWR.

At $5k/hr you are getting 30 hours of travel on a plane which carries 5-6 people for $150k/yr. The apples-to-apples comparison of what that money gets you on the bus with the rest of us, would be, say, first class travel. Domestically, first class runs $500/hour and internationally around $1000/hour PER PERSON. If you fly from an airport with good first class lounges (SFO, ORD, NYC, IAH, LAX, etc) and have TSA-pre then the airport experience can be managed.

For $150k/yr one could -
- fly first class RT SFO-NYC 60 times or a family of five 12 times.
vs - charter an entry level NetJet for family of five, SFO-NYC RT 3 times (10 hours RT * $5k/hr)

- fly first class RT SFO-LHR 15 times or a family of five 3 times.
vs - charter a mid-size Netjet for a family of five, SF0-LHR once (21 hours RT * $7k/hr).

If you are flying from fringe airports, it may be different. Going from Santa Fe to the Hamptons with a family of 5 and a couple pets every other month, you may prefer charters.
Yes, I think your numbers appear reasonable and consistent with my previous post. Seems to me that a net worth of $50 million is about right for the lower bound. Works best if your second (third, fourth?) home is a little out of the way, and you have family and pets. Most of my friends who fly private are in this situation.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by SQRT »

Invictus002 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:53 am Wow! Just realized, there are many members in this forum with NW in the $50MM range!
Many? Doubt it. Maybe a few. Agree with Afan.
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snackdog
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by snackdog »

SQRT wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:08 am
Invictus002 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:53 am Wow! Just realized, there are many members in this forum with NW in the $50MM range!
Many? Doubt it. Maybe a few. Agree with Afan.
Most people spending $100-200,000 per month are not that interested in the Boglish topics like eeking another five years out of a Corolla or repairing their own hot water heater.
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by SQRT »

snackdog wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:12 pm
SQRT wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:08 am
Invictus002 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:53 am Wow! Just realized, there are many members in this forum with NW in the $50MM range!
Many? Doubt it. Maybe a few. Agree with Afan.
Most people spending $100-200,000 per month are not that interested in the Boglish topics like eeking another five years out of a Corolla or repairing their own hot water heater.
Yes, I agree. But there are a few ultra high net worth individuals that might be interested in some topics. Examples might include this one, SWR’s, AA, gifts to children, estate/trust issues, vacation homes, charitable foundations, probably others.
Last edited by SQRT on Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
afan
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Re: Charter, NetJets, WheelsUp

Post by afan »

snackdog wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:12 pm
SQRT wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:08 am
Invictus002 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:53 am Wow! Just realized, there are many members in this forum with NW in the $50MM range!

Many? Doubt it. Maybe a few. Agree with Afan.
Most people spending $100-200,000 per month are not that interested in the Boglish topics like eeking another five years out of a Corolla or repairing their own hot water heater.

I would say that most people who would be willing to pay for private jets are not worried about repairing their home appliances themselves.

Many people who become wealthy in part by investing their assets rather than spending them can remain surprisingly frugal. I have known some who refuse to put higher than 40 Watt bulbs in their homes because they considered it wasteful.

Habits of a lifetime.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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