Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politely explain they're awful

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

livesoft wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:59 pm I would be blunt. I once invited an Edward Jones door knocker into my home, had him take a seat, and told him that his new employer and him were stealing the retirement money from all their friends, their wives, their family, and that I would like to see Edward Jones go out of business, and that I never wanted to see him on my street again and that I expected him to quit his job and get a different job. He left my house white as a ghost. I think you can do something similar.
my only regret is you didn't get this on video and show it for all the world to see.
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

bikesandbeers wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:43 pm ... but she had a hard time believe that someone 3 months out of school with a non-finance or investing related degree was going to help her achieve her financial goals.
I agree that it would be preferable for a financial company to hire employees with at least some business or finance-related education. On the other hand, Bogleheads sometimes have unrealistic expectations for people dispensing financial advice or products. On the one hand, Bogleheads expect near-zero expenses to be passed on to them; on the other hand, they want everyone they deal with at a provider with to have years of relevant education and experience.
Last edited by tibbitts on Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. -- Upton Sinclair
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

I don't think it's appropriate for the OP to engage with this Northwestern Mutual salesperson in a confrontational way. It's not a scam; it's a highly rated insurance company. This is a very slippery slope: do you tell anyone who works for a company you consider is offering very sub-optimal products in any field to find another job? Most people don't work for companies who provide optimal or even close to optimal products all the time in all categories.
Last edited by tibbitts on Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FrugalInvestor
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by FrugalInvestor »

retiredjg wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:59 pm This person is a salesperson using commonly taught sales tactics. It was a not a "random" contact - he wanted to sell you something. You should just leave it alone. He's allowed to contact anyone he wants.
Agreed, but you did your friends and yourself a big favor by not sharing names. Not only will he not contact them as a result of your referral but they won't be upset with you about the contact or the results of it. You can bet he would have used your name to get his foot in the door. Nice job! :happy
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by DesertDiva »

Wish him well in his future endeavors. Manage what you can control—your own domain.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by ChicagoBear7 »

Rex66 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:26 am
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Stinky wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:43 pm
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:51 pm To clarify - Northwestern Mutual is not an awful company.

They are a strong, well respected insurance company that is also known for an army of agents selling products that might not be appropriate/necessary for @ 98% of consumers.
So, paraphrasing your words, NWML trains an army of agents to sell an inappropriate, unnecessary product to the 98% of consumers who don’t need it?

If that doesn’t make them an awful company - what would?
It all depends upon your perspective. You can think they are awful because whole life policies are not the cheapest insurance option, but if you are part of the 2%, or if you are a private banker, family office manager, estate attorney, tax accountant/lawyer working with the uber-wealthy, you will have different opinion. Their financial strength and ability to write extremely large policies makes NWM, Mass Mutual, NY Life and a few others the "go to" insurers for the life insurance trust type of business.
You can still use term for all of those situations. You will very likely cone out ahead with WL only if you die soon(within a few years) after a 20 or 30 year term policy would have expired depending on age of purchase.

If for some reason you want a permanent death benefit and understand likely you are leaving less money then go for it.
Well, if you are going to recommend term insurance to a wealthy client with permanent insurance needs such as estate taxes, substitute inheritances due to a charitable gifting programs or the like, I hope your errors and omissions/malpractice/fiduciary liability policies are up to date. If wealthy clients spend good money to set up an extremely complex estate plan, they typically don't want it to unravel because the insurance policy expires before they do. And "overpaying" by moving money that would be subject to estate tax into a life insurance trust, eliminates the confiscatory estate tax on those funds and purchases a permanent policy that multiplies the tax free proceeds to their beneficiaries.

I know it's an article of faith among BH's that all whole life policies and annuities are evil, but really they are just tools. Tools can be used appropriately or inappropriately. It's like a knife. In the hands of a surgeon, who has determined that you have an appendix that is about to burst, it is an instrument of healing. In the hands of Jack the Ripper.... Just try to avoid absolutes.
Last edited by ChicagoBear7 on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Carguy85
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Carguy85 »

Their products are probably better than putting money in the bank or gambling on sure thing investments with single companies. Of course you know there is a better way...many don’t and don’t care to learn and many are incapable of having available funds and not spending it.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by helloeveryone »

Raymond wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:27 pm Leave it alone.

Hope you don't hear from him again for a long time (if ever.)

Just be glad you didn't marry him :D

----

I deal with people selling financial services I don't want by telling them I already have "a guy who handles my money".

That "the guy" is a figment of my imagination is neither here nor there :P
Ha ha... “that guy is John Bogle and he’s all over the internet. You should look into it....”
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Nate79 »

ChicagoBear7 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:16 pm
Rex66 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:26 am
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Stinky wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:43 pm
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:51 pm To clarify - Northwestern Mutual is not an awful company.

They are a strong, well respected insurance company that is also known for an army of agents selling products that might not be appropriate/necessary for @ 98% of consumers.
So, paraphrasing your words, NWML trains an army of agents to sell an inappropriate, unnecessary product to the 98% of consumers who don’t need it?

If that doesn’t make them an awful company - what would?
It all depends upon your perspective. You can think they are awful because whole life policies are not the cheapest insurance option, but if you are part of the 2%, or if you are a private banker, family office manager, estate attorney, tax accountant/lawyer working with the uber-wealthy, you will have different opinion. Their financial strength and ability to write extremely large policies makes NWM, Mass Mutual, NY Life and a few others the "go to" insurers for the life insurance trust type of business.
You can still use term for all of those situations. You will very likely cone out ahead with WL only if you die soon(within a few years) after a 20 or 30 year term policy would have expired depending on age of purchase.

If for some reason you want a permanent death benefit and understand likely you are leaving less money then go for it.
Well, if you are going to recommend term insurance to a wealthy client with permanent insurance needs such as estate taxes, substitute inheritances due to a charitable gifting programs or the like, I hope your errors and omissions/malpractice/fiduciary liability policies are up to date. If wealthy clients spend good money to set up an extremely complex estate plan, they typically don't want it to unravel because the insurance policy expires before they do. And "overpaying" by moving money that would be subject to estate tax into a life insurance trust, eliminates the confiscatory estate tax on those funds and purchases a permanent policy that multiplies the tax free proceeds to their beneficiaries.

I know it's an article of faith among BH's that all whole life policies and annuities are evil, but really they are just tools. Tools can be used appropriately or inappropriately. It's like a knife. In the hands of a surgeon, who has determined that you have an appendix that is about to burst, it is an instrument of healing. In the hands of Jack the Ripper.... Just try to avoid absolutes.
It is not universally agreed that permanent insurance is even an appropriate product for very high net worth individuals. This is a story that is pushed by the insurance industry for sure for obvious high fee reasons but very high net worth individuals do not need this product and it has been clearly demonstrated by a number of prominent ones that low cost products (index funds and term insurance) are perfectly appropriate for EVERYONE. In my opinion permanent insurance and other high cost insurance products are predatory for all individuals being sold by the insurance industry as a tool yet there are better low cost products available. Can you do ok with them? Sure, just like you can do fine with high cost active funds, high cost AUM advisors, etc.
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Stinky
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Stinky »

Back to OP’s first post.

She was contacted by a high school “friend” who is a rookie agent for NWML. I expect that he was going to pitch her on products she didn’t need or want.

I think that the way that NWML trains rookie agents to cold call everyone in their address book, and try to sell them whole life, is awful.

There is a trivial fraction of the population who might find value in a whole life policy. But NWML is not going to find many of those folks by rookie agents calling all of their contacts.

I don’t believe that NWML overall is an awful company. But their sales practices are awful.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:54 pm Can you do ok with them? Sure, just like you can do fine with high cost active funds, high cost AUM advisors, etc.
And that's the issue here: some products, maybe most, this company sells may not be optimal, but does that translate into someone refusing to work for the company? The vast majority of people in the financial industry have no practical choice but to start out working for companies Bogleheads consider "predatory." There is just not enough room for everyone to work at a low-fee "good" provider. And all the time we get posts here on the forum that nobody wants anyone without financial experience handling any aspect of their finances, so professionals have to get experience somewhere. This is apparently this employee's first job in the financial industry. We have what, 8% unemployment? This doesn't sound like someone who can write their own ticket to work for an employer of their choice. If the OP is so motivated, maybe with a calm discussion the OP can do some gradual education on other approaches to insurance and investing, but just slamming Northwestern's practices isn't going to help anyone.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

Stinky wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:12 pm Back to OP’s first post.

She was contacted by a high school “friend” who is a rookie agent for NWML. I expect that he was going to pitch her on products she didn’t need or want.

I think that the way that NWML trains rookie agents to cold call everyone in their address book, and try to sell them whole life, is awful.

There is a trivial fraction of the population who might find value in a whole life policy. But NWML is not going to find many of those folks by rookie agents calling all of their contacts.

I don’t believe that NWML overall is an awful company. But their sales practices are awful.
I believe that the vast majority of companies in the retail financial space expect exactly the same thing with regard to new hires contacting everyone they know. And to some extent many other retail businesses do as well. So while it may not be a pleasant sales tactic, the dilemma if I was a NWM manager would be: if I don't have my agents do this, my competitors will. And the customers will still end up with at least equally inappropriate products.

What would be a Boglehead-approved alternative to this approach that would be effective in generating a reasonable number of sales to new customers?
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by beyou »

These are no win situations.
I have 2 relatives that tried to sell overpriced financial products, no good way to say no. Without explanation, you insult the relationship. With explanation you insult their beliefs (brainwashing). Had a NWM new hire coaching my kid, lovely having to see him every practice/game knowing I had refused a meeting. At least my kid grew up, no
more coach. But relatives just don’t go away...not yet at least. Just have to try and stay polite, not easy. But it’s not my job to save everyone else from these salesmen. If someone asks I would share my opinion, never unsolicited.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by dogagility »

Northwestern Mutual is a slimy business.

My D (in college now) interviewed for an "internship" with them this summer. During the interview they asked her for the contact information of five people... obviously to try and sell them some poor insurance or investment product. Thankfully, she did not comply. Also, declined the "internship" offer... which was really just cold-calling Northwestern Mutual prey.

Silver lining: she learned something about people and the way unscrupulous businesses work.
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000
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by 000 »

Just block them.

No need to explain anything.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

dogagility wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:55 pm Northwestern Mutual is a slimy business.
Here is where we encounter the slippery slope. Is Ford a slimy business due to Pinto gas tanks? Boeing because of the MAX firmware/software? Honda because of oil dilution? Wells Fargo because... well, it's Wells Fargo? Where do you draw the line, and what companies are going to be left to work for?
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Nate79 »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:21 pm
Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:54 pm Can you do ok with them? Sure, just like you can do fine with high cost active funds, high cost AUM advisors, etc.
And that's the issue here: some products, maybe most, this company sells may not be optimal, but does that translate into someone refusing to work for the company? The vast majority of people in the financial industry have no practical choice but to start out working for companies Bogleheads consider "predatory." There is just not enough room for everyone to work at a low-fee "good" provider. And all the time we get posts here on the forum that nobody wants anyone without financial experience handling any aspect of their finances, so professionals have to get experience somewhere. This is apparently this employee's first job in the financial industry. We have what, 8% unemployment? This doesn't sound like someone who can write their own ticket to work for an employer of their choice. If the OP is so motivated, maybe with a calm discussion the OP can do some gradual education on other approaches to insurance and investing, but just slamming Northwestern's practices isn't going to help anyone.
There are two types of insurance agents (rookie or not) who are peddling products like permanent insurance and high cost, complex annuity or insurance products. They are either ignorant or they are dishonest. They are in the same boat as slimy companies like Edward Jones and their ilk. Selling a product people don't need thru deceptive practices.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:20 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:21 pm
Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:54 pm Can you do ok with them? Sure, just like you can do fine with high cost active funds, high cost AUM advisors, etc.
And that's the issue here: some products, maybe most, this company sells may not be optimal, but does that translate into someone refusing to work for the company? The vast majority of people in the financial industry have no practical choice but to start out working for companies Bogleheads consider "predatory." There is just not enough room for everyone to work at a low-fee "good" provider. And all the time we get posts here on the forum that nobody wants anyone without financial experience handling any aspect of their finances, so professionals have to get experience somewhere. This is apparently this employee's first job in the financial industry. We have what, 8% unemployment? This doesn't sound like someone who can write their own ticket to work for an employer of their choice. If the OP is so motivated, maybe with a calm discussion the OP can do some gradual education on other approaches to insurance and investing, but just slamming Northwestern's practices isn't going to help anyone.
There are two types of insurance agents (rookie or not) who are peddling products like permanent insurance and high cost, complex annuity or insurance products. They are either ignorant or they are dishonest. They are in the same boat as slimy companies like Edward Jones and their ilk. Selling a product people don't need thru deceptive practices.
I'd much rather someone be peddling NW Mutual products than collecting unemployment. Selling insurance that you know won't pay off in the event of a legitimate claim would be fraud, clearly dishonest, and certainly grounds for leaving a company. Selling insurance that might not be the optimal solution for a customer is completely different. As I pointed out very few salespeople are ever in a position where they never have to sell what they believe to be a less-than-optimal product to a customer.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Lalamimi »

I was a landman for an oil and gas company - fracked the heck out of South Texas. No friend ever told me I worked for a horrible company. Let it be. If there is a problem, hopefully he will see the light on his own.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by afan »

Like other big life insurance companies- New York Life, Mass Mutual and so forth, they make more money on whole life than on term. They sell a lot of whole life.
They have one of the highest retention rates in the industry. The people who buy their policies are less likely to cancel them than are customersers of almost any other life insurance company. Maybe they have been more thoroughly hoodwinked. Or maybe they are heavily represented in the class of people who actually need whole life.

It has been a long time since I shopped for life insurance. When I did, NWML had quite competitive rates for term.

It has long had top financial strength ratings. Since you buy when you can and hope your company is still going years or decades later when you need it, the financial strength matters. It matters even more if you are buying a larger policy that your state guaranty fund will protect.

I would never buy a Mercedes Benz. Over priced. The company has to convince many shoppers to spend $50,000, $80,000 or over $100,00 on a car that will take them the same place as a Camry. Truly a waste of money. But I don't consider MB to be an evil company. The product itself is fine, just overpriced.

Unlike MB, which IMHO no one should buy, NWML sells term policies that meet the needs of many people. They sell whole life that may meet the needs of those who need term.

In the case of big life insurance companies and NWML in particular, the prices for term are competitive, or were the last time I checked. I agree that few people need Whole life. For those who do, the prices may be competitive for that as well.

Buy a policy type that suits your needs. Pick a good price from a strong company. Many people have concluded that NWML, NYL and Mass Mutual are good picks for them.

I don't get the fixation on one company.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Rex66 »

ChicagoBear7 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:16 pm
Rex66 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:26 am
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 pm
Stinky wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:43 pm
ChicagoBear7 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:51 pm To clarify - Northwestern Mutual is not an awful company.

They are a strong, well respected insurance company that is also known for an army of agents selling products that might not be appropriate/necessary for @ 98% of consumers.
So, paraphrasing your words, NWML trains an army of agents to sell an inappropriate, unnecessary product to the 98% of consumers who don’t need it?

If that doesn’t make them an awful company - what would?
It all depends upon your perspective. You can think they are awful because whole life policies are not the cheapest insurance option, but if you are part of the 2%, or if you are a private banker, family office manager, estate attorney, tax accountant/lawyer working with the uber-wealthy, you will have different opinion. Their financial strength and ability to write extremely large policies makes NWM, Mass Mutual, NY Life and a few others the "go to" insurers for the life insurance trust type of business.
You can still use term for all of those situations. You will very likely cone out ahead with WL only if you die soon(within a few years) after a 20 or 30 year term policy would have expired depending on age of purchase.

If for some reason you want a permanent death benefit and understand likely you are leaving less money then go for it.
Well, if you are going to recommend term insurance to a wealthy client with permanent insurance needs such as estate taxes, substitute inheritances due to a charitable gifting programs or the like, I hope your errors and omissions/malpractice/fiduciary liability policies are up to date. If wealthy clients spend good money to set up an extremely complex estate plan, they typically don't want it to unravel because the insurance policy expires before they do. And "overpaying" by moving money that would be subject to estate tax into a life insurance trust, eliminates the confiscatory estate tax on those funds and purchases a permanent policy that multiplies the tax free proceeds to their beneficiaries.

I know it's an article of faith among BH's that all whole life policies and annuities are evil, but really they are just tools. Tools can be used appropriately or inappropriately. It's like a knife. In the hands of a surgeon, who has determined that you have an appendix that is about to burst, it is an instrument of healing. In the hands of Jack the Ripper.... Just try to avoid absolutes.
That was all solved by the ILIt in your bad example. It had nothing to do with insurance for estate purposes. You can put other stuff in an irrevocable trust and do better.

Sadly you know that but decided to pretend it was the whole life solving the estate issue
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by afan »

It would be hard to justify using term insurance in an ILIT. If the insured had a normal life duration the premiums would become prohibitive.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Rex66 »

You don’t just put the term in the irrevocable

You also invest all the “difference”. After 20years or 30 years the term expires but you regular investments continue.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by bsteiner »

afan wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:17 pm It would be hard to justify using term insurance in an ILIT. If the insured had a normal life duration the premiums would become prohibitive.
Very few insurance trusts are created these days. There aren't very many people rich enough to pay estate tax but poor enough to need life insurance.

When the estate tax exclusion amount was lower (it was $675,000 as recently as 2001), there were many people with, say, $2 million or $3 million (including their life insurance) who were rich enough to pay estate tax but poor enough to need life insurance, so we used to create insurance trusts for them. They would contribute whatever types of policies they had. It was easier for people to contribute term policies since, not only weren't they expecting to receive the proceeds, they weren't expecting to receive anything from cashing in or borrowing against the policy.

Nevertheless, there are a few people who have high income but don't yet have much in the way of assets, who might have large amounts of insurance. Sometimes they create insurance trusts, especially if they live in states having a lower state estate tax exempt amount. They're likely to have term policies.

The cost of the insurance protection is just as much at older ages with policies other than term. It's just that, depending on the type of policy, it's not as obvious.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by dogagility »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:09 pm
dogagility wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:55 pm Northwestern Mutual is a slimy business.
Here is where we encounter the slippery slope. Is Ford a slimy business due to Pinto gas tanks? Boeing because of the MAX firmware/software? Honda because of oil dilution? Wells Fargo because... well, it's Wells Fargo? Where do you draw the line, and what companies are going to be left to work for?
Slimy because their business model is to coerce cold call leads from applicants during an interview.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by SB1234 »

dogagility wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:26 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:09 pm
dogagility wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:55 pm Northwestern Mutual is a slimy business.
Here is where we encounter the slippery slope. Is Ford a slimy business due to Pinto gas tanks? Boeing because of the MAX firmware/software? Honda because of oil dilution? Wells Fargo because... well, it's Wells Fargo? Where do you draw the line, and what companies are going to be left to work for?
Slimy because their business model is to coerce cold call leads from applicants during an interview.
Sliminess is a feature of capitalism. If any one here invests in index funds, they're most certainly contributing to the sliminess.
anecdotes are not data
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by J295 »

livesoft wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:59 pm I would be blunt. I once invited an Edward Jones door knocker into my home, had him take a seat, and told him that his new employer and him were stealing the retirement money from all their friends, their wives, their family, and that I would like to see Edward Jones go out of business, and that I never wanted to see him on my street again and that I expected him to quit his job and get a different job. He left my house white as a ghost. I think you can do something similar.
Mean spirited and completely inappropriate.

OP can simply stand down.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Nate79 »

J295 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 pm
livesoft wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:59 pm I would be blunt. I once invited an Edward Jones door knocker into my home, had him take a seat, and told him that his new employer and him were stealing the retirement money from all their friends, their wives, their family, and that I would like to see Edward Jones go out of business, and that I never wanted to see him on my street again and that I expected him to quit his job and get a different job. He left my house white as a ghost. I think you can do something similar.
Mean spirited and completely inappropriate.

OP can simply stand down.
LOL. Livesoft was spot on to call out them for what they are. Sadly these insurance agents like the financial advisors are just plain ignorant of their actions and the hurt they do to their marks, er I mean customers. Unfortunately people are too timid to tell it like it is these days.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

dogagility wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:55 pm Northwestern Mutual is a slimy business.

My D (in college now) interviewed for an "internship" with them this summer. During the interview they asked her for the contact information of five people... obviously to try and sell them some poor insurance or investment product. Thankfully, she did not comply. Also, declined the "internship" offer... which was really just cold-calling Northwestern Mutual prey.

Silver lining: she learned something about people and the way unscrupulous businesses work.
Honestly, I've had to do cold calling in my career and you probably have too, so if you're saying that's what the internship required, then I'm not sure that would be such a bad internship experience to have. It's uncomfortable and you have to not get discouraged. It might have been an appropriate response to say that she's waiting for her licensing and commission agreement before providing any contacts. I think an interesting question to ask would be how the company views customers brought in through these personal contacts - the extent to which the company "owns" these assets. It's always seemed to be a bit of an ethical quandary as to what to do when a salesperson moves on to another company, so I would have asked the interviewer if he'd had personal experience with that (he surely had), and how he'd resolved it.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Bobby206 »

Gill wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:25 am
yohac wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:29 pm
diydocwifejd wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:53 pm I'd like to follow up with him to explain what a horrible reputation NWM has and that what he's doing isn't personal finance.
Horrible is news to me. They like to push whole life and annuities, so BHs have no use for them. But I never heard they were any scammier than anyone else in that business.
Agree. Northwestern Mutual has always had one of the best reputations in the insurance business.
Gill
Exactly what I was going to post. For life insurance it is at the top of most ratings services. High quality company.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by tibbitts »

Nate79 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:55 pm
J295 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 pm
livesoft wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:59 pm I would be blunt. I once invited an Edward Jones door knocker into my home, had him take a seat, and told him that his new employer and him were stealing the retirement money from all their friends, their wives, their family, and that I would like to see Edward Jones go out of business, and that I never wanted to see him on my street again and that I expected him to quit his job and get a different job. He left my house white as a ghost. I think you can do something similar.
Mean spirited and completely inappropriate.

OP can simply stand down.
LOL. Livesoft was spot on to call out them for what they are. Sadly these insurance agents like the financial advisors are just plain ignorant of their actions and the hurt they do to their marks, er I mean customers. Unfortunately people are too timid to tell it like it is these days.
I do think it was mean-spirited but more importantly extremely dangerous to invite someone you don't know into your home for that kind of discussion. You don't know how some people will react.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Trader Joe »

diydocwifejd wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:53 pm A friend from high school randomly contacted me out of the blue now that he's "passionate about personal finance" and joined northwestern mutual. I am a true boglehead/Dave Ramsey follower (have been learning about indexing, term life, etc. for about 4 years now), so I knew not to buy anything from him. He asked me for 5 contact people, I said no.

Another friend of ours reached out saying that he had contacted her selling her insurance (she wisely declined) and asked her for 10 people's names (which she shared). I told her to contact each and every one of them and have them ignore his call/decline to be sold insurance or give other referrals.

Now I'm in a quandry -- I'd like to follow up with him to explain what a horrible reputation NWM has and that what he's doing isn't personal finance. I'm not sure how do to this. It's not like he and I are super close by the way -- we dated in high school. I just really don't want him to sell awful things to people we both know.

Anyone dealt with this before and care to share how you approached it?
I would never, ever do what you are proposing here.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by rob »

Honestly, not sure it's your place to get them to see the light... just decline and have them add you to the never contact me until stuff freezes over list.

Some replies above surprise me as not sure why NML is getting a pass here..... They heavily push whole life which is generally despised here (for good reason) and their sale pitch is family based "caring" as a simple sales angle. Some ads I have seen are nothing short of despicable. There was a heavy push in the NE over the Covid lockdown period further adding to the slime factor for me. Their agents are not fiduciaries and their products are rarely a good deal even within class.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by afan »

I agree that whole life is inappropriate for most people. There are some circumstances under which it is a good solution.

The question is whether NWML is different than other life insurance companies that sell term and whole life.

"Most people should avoid whole life" completely agree.

"NWML is unique among life insurance companies in that it pushes whole life. Even if you need whole life, even if they have come competitive term, you should avoid this company" I don't see any reason to pick this one particular company as worst of all. That is just the life insurance business.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by Doom&Gloom »

That can not be explained politely.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by softwaregeek »

reln wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:46 pm
diydocwifejd wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:53 pm A friend from high school randomly contacted me out of the blue now that he's "passionate about personal finance" and joined northwestern mutual. I am a true boglehead/Dave Ramsey follower (have been learning about indexing, term life, etc. for about 4 years now), so I knew not to buy anything from him. He asked me for 5 contact people, I said no.

Another friend of ours reached out saying that he had contacted her selling her insurance (she wisely declined) and asked her for 10 people's names (which she shared). I told her to contact each and every one of them and have them ignore his call/decline to be sold insurance or give other referrals.

Now I'm in a quandry -- I'd like to follow up with him to explain what a horrible reputation NWM has and that what he's doing isn't personal finance. I'm not sure how do to this. It's not like he and I are super close by the way -- we dated in high school. I just really don't want him to sell awful things to people we both know.

Anyone dealt with this before and care to share how you approached it?
Dave Ramsey is a scammer too.
Disagree. I don't like a lot of his advice on investing - I think he's wrong, and he has this referral network which is kind of shady, but there are a significant number of people who NEED his 'rice and beans until you're debt free' message. On that front, he's dead on right.
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Re: Old friend joined Northwestern Mutual -- how to politiely explain they're awful

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted). See: Locked Topics
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I also fixed the spelling in the thread title "politiely" to "politely".
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