Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
bling
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Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

Post by bling »

Pomegranate wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:45 am
Slacker wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:38 pm I do with some co-workers and friends depending on what I know of their situation.

I have also with some family members (especially my own children -> I want to make sure they are armed with the knowledge).

My Parents never taught me a single thing about financial responsibility. They just made it seem as if we were poor and couldn't afford anything, EVER (no vacations, going out to eat was a twice a year affair, my parents were very responsible in their vehicle and housing choices). This left me with the impression that I will make sure to earn much more than them and have all the finer things in life that my parents did without because they were too poor to do anything about it. As a result, I spent my 20s and most of my 30s living off of debt, failing to save, and not living below my means. Finally, I educated myself and turned it around. Now in my mid 40s we are doing quite well and I recently learned that my parents have a 7 figure net worth, multiple pensions and 5 paid off rental homes. Not once did they attempt to educate me about money. I feel a little dissatisfied with the position that left me in and of course annoyed with my own choices that resulted in poor money decisions that essentially left me "decades behind" in saving for retirement. If not for a combination of Dave Ramsey, Millionaire Next Door, Mr Money Mustache and the Bogleheads I would never have caught back up and probably would still be keeping up with the Jones' spending all my paychecks and only putting enough into 401Ks to get the company match.

I REALLY wish my parents would have done a better job with the financial education, but they (especially my father) were really hands off and sort of let me learn about many big lessons in life through my own trial and error if I didn't learn from school.
That's exactly why I do not really "talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff". Most of the folks do not like LBYM ideas and the plan to have a lavish retirement by sacrificing kids childhood is disgusting for a lot of ppl :annoyed
while Slacker's story is a bit sad i don't think it was intentional on the parent's part. teaching stuff like this is just....difficult. you can try to lead by example but sometimes it still doesn't work out for whatever reason.

my upbringing was similar, no vacations, no extravagant toys, no eating out, etc. knowing now what my parents made back then, they were actually poor. the food we ate was very simple and bland. left overs every day. as a kid growing up i didn't know any better, so i didn't even know what i was missing out on. my parents felt it was important to have appearances of a middle class family, when in reality we could have had a better lifestyle by living in a smaller house.

the only financial advice they drilled into me was stay out of debt. if you can't afford to pay in cash, you can't afford it at all. if you want that something, save save save until you have enough to buy it.

i don't even know/remember how i got started on the path of index investing. i just know my very first job that offered a 401k i put as much as i could afford into it. it didn't bother me at all that i wouldn't see this money many decades later. i guess all of that delayed gratification of save/save/save prepared me for this.

the challenge now is how to teach my kids when i am legitimately not poor. i think they're actually doing really well with the saving part. except now they come to me asking to buy all of these games on their tablet. "i want to buy this add-on, it makes all the stuff more pretty." and i'm like..."no, that's a waste of money! it literally doesn't do anything except make stuff look pretty." i'm still struggling on this part...letting them make the mistakes with their own money.

but, to answer the OP's original question. no, not unless asked. if they continue asking, i'll tell them everything, including my AA and fund placement in which type of account, credit cards, etc. the only thing i never say is actual dollar amounts.
bltn
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Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

Post by bltn »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:11 am A long-time close personal friend told me about his finances. The only reason he did so was because he knew it wouldn't go anywhere and it was in the context of helping a family member. All OK, he knows what he's doing.

I briefly mentioned my situation as a way to reciprocate the trust we have in each other.

Other than that, no one else knows my financial details - including family members.
I have always believed that letting others know your finances has the potential to cause problems. I ve always been comfortable living a lifestyle below our means, and maintaining that image without exception.
bling
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Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

Post by bling »

bltn wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:13 am
    financiallycurious wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:51 pm I have no one to talk to about finances. My parents set a great example of LBYM, but they fear the market, so they have a house with no mortgage, no car loans or credit card debt, a nice business, cash and gold. I can't talk to my friends because at this point it is too late for them to catch up and it would change the dynamic in our friendship. I definitely can't talk to inlaws because they'd expect even more financial support from us than we already provide. I can't even talk to my spouse as freely as I'd like because he would rather spend all of his income and mine if he had the chance, so it's easier to just make automatic contributions to 401k, 529 plans, etc. from my paycheck before it hits our account and avoid the issue.
    Reading this post has reminded me of how fortunate I ve been to have married a woman who was naturally frugal. While she has only a modest interest in investing , she s always thought saving was important.
    what are the 3 things again? agreement on politics/religion, finances, kids. don't get married otherwise!
    pennywise
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by pennywise »

    Just my adult son. He and I both really enjoy getting granular about investing, the financial markets, outlooks etc. We are diametrically opposite investors: I'm a Boglehead (duh) and he is a govt employee married to an up and coming director in a mega corp. He loves action; does a lot of market timing-based shifts, much research etc. My DIL limits his wildest play to a fun fund, so he does have a pretty good grasp of some of the more staid gummint options for retirement planning LOL.

    Anyway of the rest of my immediate family, my daughter and my DIL both are financially astute but think dollars/cents conversations are unseemly. My husband has no interest in anything financial other than if he can afford gas for the boat :wink: .

    I sometimes have general conversations with my SIL whose financial situation is very similar to mine and husband's.

    Otherwise I don't discuss finances with other people for the reasons that have been explained here. Husband used to guide young coworkers-only at their request-with pointers. Mostly that was happening as we purchased a second home and prepared for retirement, so I think they were genuinely interested in how he was managing that process.

    I hope they found his advice useful as it was very much in the BH model: LBYM, pay yourself first, use company offered retirement plans etc.
    cshell2
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by cshell2 »

    I try to, but a lot of people get really weird about discussing finances, so I just have a couple friends/coworkers that I talk money with. My family however, is pretty open. I like when my mom and all her siblings get together because they often have financial conversations and I get some good ideas for what's to come as they're all 15-25 years older than me. It's also nice to know that they're all doing quite well (save for one of the 8), so I don't have to worry about them.
    financiallycurious
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by financiallycurious »

    what are the 3 things again? agreement on politics/religion, finances, kids. don't get married otherwise!

    There are ways to work around financial incompatibility, but no doubt it must be less stressful if all of your values line up with those of your partner, especially with regard to finances.
    atxll
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by atxll »

    I would avoid participating in any discussion that might show your financial savviness and give hints towards your income/wealth level. Especially in the current climate in the US, with massive income inequality that is only getting worse. I see so many people flaunting their wealth like we aren't in the middle of a pandemic with the number of people in poverty on the rise. It's just not a good look.
    Onlineid3089
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by Onlineid3089 »

    Outside my wife, my mother is the only person I talk about any financial specifics with. She's been in a similar career path for a few decades so her input on jobs/salaries, etc is very valuable to me. I'd be fine talking about it with my dad or brother, but none of us have ever felt the need to even start a discussion.

    If a closer friend asks I'll keep it to generalities.

    I've had coworkers ask and I'll share the general boglehead philosophies and why I choose to follow them being clear that what I do may not be best for them, that they really need to decide for themselves, etc.
    tnr
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by tnr »

    Probably the way we were raised but both my wife and I are extremely reluctant to discuss financial matters with our friends or family. For our families, we say we are doing fine, and are willing to help if a crisis happens like a job loss or medical emergency. For friends, I encourage them to save and live below their means but I avoid getting too specific. We do have a UBS account with financial advisor so if I need specific advice about my finances, I ask him but my wife and I always make the final decisions.
    Grt2bOutdoors
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    Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

    Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

    bling wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:27 am
    bltn wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:13 am
      financiallycurious wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:51 pm I have no one to talk to about finances. My parents set a great example of LBYM, but they fear the market, so they have a house with no mortgage, no car loans or credit card debt, a nice business, cash and gold. I can't talk to my friends because at this point it is too late for them to catch up and it would change the dynamic in our friendship. I definitely can't talk to inlaws because they'd expect even more financial support from us than we already provide. I can't even talk to my spouse as freely as I'd like because he would rather spend all of his income and mine if he had the chance, so it's easier to just make automatic contributions to 401k, 529 plans, etc. from my paycheck before it hits our account and avoid the issue.
      Reading this post has reminded me of how fortunate I ve been to have married a woman who was naturally frugal. While she has only a modest interest in investing , she s always thought saving was important.
      what are the 3 things again? agreement on politics/religion, finances, kids. don't get married otherwise!
      Four things - don’t forget values. If the purported partner does not share similar values - forget it, you are doomed.
      "One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
      MarkBarb
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      Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

      Post by MarkBarb »

      klondike wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:11 pm
      MarkBarb wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:27 am Last month, I got a call from a former colleague at the company I retired from. The stock price dropped by 75% in a couple of months. She thanked me profusely because I explained to her many years ago why I didn't hold any vested company stock.
      If the stock price went up like TSLA or AMZN, things would go other way, therefore, I never, ever give any serious advice to anyone except my children.
      I did not give her advise, at least not in the sense of telling her what I thought she should do. I explained to her what I did and what my logic was. She agreed with my logic and made her own decision. I can see the danger of making recommendations for people, especially given that you usually only have a part of their total picture. But I would never let that make me afraid of explaining my own views and decisions to friends so that they can benefit from my knowledge and research and it would hope that they would do the same for me.
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      unclescrooge
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      Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

      Post by unclescrooge »

      Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:36 pm
      bling wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:27 am
      bltn wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:13 am
        financiallycurious wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:51 pm I have no one to talk to about finances. My parents set a great example of LBYM, but they fear the market, so they have a house with no mortgage, no car loans or credit card debt, a nice business, cash and gold. I can't talk to my friends because at this point it is too late for them to catch up and it would change the dynamic in our friendship. I definitely can't talk to inlaws because they'd expect even more financial support from us than we already provide. I can't even talk to my spouse as freely as I'd like because he would rather spend all of his income and mine if he had the chance, so it's easier to just make automatic contributions to 401k, 529 plans, etc. from my paycheck before it hits our account and avoid the issue.
        Reading this post has reminded me of how fortunate I ve been to have married a woman who was naturally frugal. While she has only a modest interest in investing , she s always thought saving was important.
        what are the 3 things again? agreement on politics/religion, finances, kids. don't get married otherwise!
        Four things - don’t forget values. If the purported partner does not share similar values - forget it, you are doomed.
        Religion, Education, financial habits, and kids and the main ones. I made sure my 2nd wife and I agreed on all this on the the very first date.
        stoptothink
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        Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

        Post by stoptothink »

        unclescrooge wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:56 pm
        Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:36 pm
        bling wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:27 am
        bltn wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:13 am
          financiallycurious wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:51 pm I have no one to talk to about finances. My parents set a great example of LBYM, but they fear the market, so they have a house with no mortgage, no car loans or credit card debt, a nice business, cash and gold. I can't talk to my friends because at this point it is too late for them to catch up and it would change the dynamic in our friendship. I definitely can't talk to inlaws because they'd expect even more financial support from us than we already provide. I can't even talk to my spouse as freely as I'd like because he would rather spend all of his income and mine if he had the chance, so it's easier to just make automatic contributions to 401k, 529 plans, etc. from my paycheck before it hits our account and avoid the issue.
          Reading this post has reminded me of how fortunate I ve been to have married a woman who was naturally frugal. While she has only a modest interest in investing , she s always thought saving was important.
          what are the 3 things again? agreement on politics/religion, finances, kids. don't get married otherwise!
          Four things - don’t forget values. If the purported partner does not share similar values - forget it, you are doomed.
          Religion, Education, financial habits, and kids and the main ones. I made sure my 2nd wife and I agreed on all this on the the very first date.
          +1. Perfectly aligned except for one (money) the first time around. I got that conversation out of the way on many 1st dates the second time around; limited second dates, but I found a keeper.
          You Know What I Mean
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by You Know What I Mean »

          gator15 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:00 am I understand that talking finances is taboo, but I’ve tried to break that thought process over the years. Im tired of seeing financial ignorance lead to unfavorable outcomes for people. I’m no expert, but I feel like I know enough to help people. I feel an obligation to help. Some people take the advice while some don’t and that’s fine. Even if you are only able to help one or two people, that help may have a profound impact on their lives. Maybe it leads to them helping others. I’m giving another finance class at work in a couple of weeks and I’m really looking forward to it. I was asked to give the class after my coworkers felt like they benefited from the first class.
          Well done! I applaud your attitude and actions. I understand there are risks in trying to help anyone, and then I think about the much-larger risks that John Bogle took.

          Within the immediate family, I discuss finances in some depth (not our exact amounts) with the kids and their spouses. They were and are receptive to the discussions and some suggestions, implementing them to varying degrees.

          I manage one sibling’s finances and have also substantially helped a niece and a nephew who asked. All is well.

          Outside the family, I don’t bring up the topic but am glad to talk about it if someone does. I’ve had many interesting discussions with neighbors and friends on taxes, market timing vs buy and hold, individual stocks vs mutual funds/ETFs, active vs passive/index funds, asset allocation, bond funds, CD rates, etc. I learn some interesting things, and I don’t usually try to persuade anyone. It’s more like, here’s what I’m doing and why –- if they are actually interested. I enjoy listening to their points of view, which in some cases are very different from mine.
          Kelrex
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Kelrex »

          I'm very open about it, but I'm not at all preachy, so people are generally quite comfortable talking to me about personal finance, and are usually kind of excited to have someone to talk to and ask questions.

          Due to my professional background, I'm expected to know a lot about personal and business finance, so it comes up pretty naturally.

          I speak about it in very general terms most of the time, and then people start participating with more and more specific content until we're talking savings rates, investments, taxes, etc.

          My personal experience is that most people want to talk about money as soon as they feel comfortable and safe from judgement to do so.

          Granted, I have training in clinical counselling, so I'm cool talking about literally anything with literally anyone and making people feel comfortable to do so.
          hnd
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by hnd »

          i love talking with people and often time things will swing around to finances. I speak with a few guys at work all the time about our personal investments. The owner of the company's son and I chat frequently.

          I teach on occasion financial peace university at our church and sometimes there are handfuls of questions on things and I like to inject a different methodology when he begins talking about his investing strategies.

          i talk with my dad about this a lot as he knows i follow it pretty hard. He

          my father in law and I talk about it a lot too. He has given me lots of great advice over the years.

          My brothers don't really care, 1 i'm not even certain is preparing much in retirement and my other works for a large corporation and i assume does a little. both are in their 30's with children.


          I have a few friends who we'll talk about stuff but ultimately I find most people think its too hard or are like "i'll deal with that later" A number of them are like i have a whole life policy that should be enough. stuff like that. I will definitely tell people what I think they should do or what i would do if they ask.
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          novolog
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by novolog »

          We do not discuss our personal finances with anyone (even our parents). I suppose if our parents asked we would give them an idea of where we are at, but they have not. Security through obscurity, especially in the age of the internet.

          OTOH I am aware of how important it is to have influential people teach you personal finance habits at a young age. I had a very formative experience with a business teacher freshman year of high school. He suggested that we read "The Millionaire Next Door" over and over again. He advocated for index funds instead of picking stocks. He was wealthy, he had a story about quitting investment banking life to become a teacher. His wife didn't work, and they owned two very expensive SUVs (Mercedes GLS Class 8-)). As a teenager, he had all the status symbols that kids revere, so we looked up to him and his advice came from a place of legitimacy.

          Sharing your financial situation and helping people with personal finance education can technically remain mutually exclusive. However, I think folks (especially kids) are more willing to listen to your advice if they know you are wealthy. If my high school business teacher was not perceived as wealthy, then I may have just dismissed his advice and never read the book.

          I think advice from bogleheads can go in one ear and out the other because bogleheads do not appear wealthy relative to their peers.
          stoptothink
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by stoptothink »

          My parents came over last night to ask for my help on their 401k allocations and finally opening up IRAs. They're late 50's with zero in retirement savings to date, but trying to get moving in the right direction. My stepfather was very forward about asking how much the wife and I make and how much we have invested. He actually did something similar at last Sunday family dinner, in front of several extended family members, and I just ignored him. My wife recently has seen the downside to telling people we paid off our home, so we (as pleasantly as we could) reassured him that we'll never need help but that the details of our situation weren't any of his business.
          softwaregeek
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by softwaregeek »

          Virtually nobody in the real world knows what I have. I do try to encourage coworkers to contribute to the 401k, but I never give specific recommendations. I just always tell them to use the recommendation engine in the 401k plan.

          I avoid talking about the vacations, etc. that I take and I don't post pictures to social media. (I don't use social media at all, in fact) and I drive a modest car.

          Still, it's kind of hard to hide your job title so people kind of assume I make good money now.
          sjl333
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by sjl333 »

          Resent and jealousy is a real real thing. I have gotten burned way too many times telling people how I'm doing financially. People don't like hearing that you are doing better than them. People treat you differently if they find out you have money (i.e. they will start to expect you to pay for dinner and drinks since you are "doing so well".)I would advise keeping those details to yourself and only tell close family such as sis/bro and parents only. Don't get burned like me... Got burned three times already and never again.
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          cos
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by cos »

          Not anymore, not unless I'm specifically asked. In fact, it was one of the reasons my ex-girlfriend left me. Her therapist even suggested I was literally psychotic for being so excited about investing despite having a low net worth at the time and called me "financially abusive" for helping her set up a Roth IRA since seeing the value of her portfolio fluctuate made her anxious.

          On the other hand, it was one of the reasons my current girlfriend decided to date me. She saw me managing my accounts at work one day and asked me for advice. Of course, I was a lot more cautious this time around, but she ended up drawing more information out of me than my ex did. We frequently discussed things like the efficient market hypothesis and the Boglehead philosophy over lunch, and she eventually asked me to help her set up a Roth IRA. We now live together.

          To be fair, those are both extreme cases relative to the rest of my friends and family. They're simply bored by it and prefer to talk about other things. Still, the lesson learned remains the same: don't talk about money unless specifically asked.
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          FrugalProfessor
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by FrugalProfessor »

          cos wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 pm Her therapist even suggested I was literally psychotic for being so excited about investing despite having a low net worth at the time and called me "financially abusive" for helping her set up a Roth IRA since seeing the value of her portfolio fluctuate made her anxious.
          I literally laughed out loud while reading this. Thanks for the great story. Seems like quite the fairy tale ending with your new significant other.

          To answer the OPs question, yes I do talk about this in real life and people consequently think I'm an absolute weirdo. But I don't really mind being labeled a weirdo. I think it's absurd that people don't care more about this stuff. Upon learning that a neighbor or friend is invested with Edward Jones, I almost literally have to bite my tongue to not reprimand them on the "tyranny of compounded costs" (to quote our namesake).

          I teach this stuff at the university level so perhaps that gives me a small excuse to breach the taboo, though surely I push it too far too often.
          I blog. Taxes are the lowest hanging source of alpha. I eat tax alpha for breakfast.
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          jakehefty17
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by jakehefty17 »

          Friends only if they ask. I have a friend who works for a bank and we occasionally chat about investing. Family no, although I have asked my dad about his retirement plans. He shared his plan to stay in CDs through retirement, which I figured has taken a hit with the current rates. More just checking up on him and showing interest in his upcoming retirement, it's his money and I'm not going to push my investing advice on him.

          Coworkers yes, as we all make exactly the same salary (per the union contract). Other departments make about the same as well, as I could look up their salary in the contract. Most don't save as much or have the interest in investing that I do, but I do discuss money/investing with these people.

          However, I've learned that I shouldn't talk with coworkers about this in public places. There have been a couple instances where my SO got upset after a prolonged chat with coworkers about their upcoming travel work and the financial incentives that coincide. Leaving for 3-4 weeks to another state is something to talk about. Turns out she felt excluded from the conversation, and didn't appreciate it.

          She gets a little touchy on the subject of money. Not sure why, she works in human resources for one of the most renowned universities in the state. I think she got upset that she couldn't contribute to the conversation and subsequently felt slighted. It was never my intention but I understand her sentiment.

          Just a little anecdote for you. Even though it's perfectly acceptable conversation at work, somebody in the room might be put off if you're talking about it in a bar. I've learned to be a bit more careful after having this chat with her a couple times.
          "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence." -Charles Bukowski
          tibbitts
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by tibbitts »

          jakehefty17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:36 am Even though it's perfectly acceptable conversation at work, somebody in the room might be put off if you're talking about it in a bar.
          People still go to bars?
          OpenMinded1
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by OpenMinded1 »

          I generally don't talk to older friends/family/and coworkers about investing without being asked about it, and even then I keep it short and very general. Sometimes I'll offer general advice to younger people up to about age 30 without being asked for it.

          A few things: -Most people aren't interested in investing. When you bring up investing their eyes glaze over, or they try to change the subject or get away from you. -For older people, I often don't want to talk to them about it because it's too late. It's very unlikely they can save and invest enough to have a good retirement. (I'm very focused on investing for retirement.) If I was honest with them, what I would tell them would be depressing, and what good would it do? There's also that kill the messenger thing. -Many younger people aren't going to take advice from just about anybody, but especially someone my age (62). Hopefully, they will learn the hard way over time, from their mistakes, like most people do. -Also regarding younger people, they often will find the Boglehead way of investing boring, and won't have the patients to wait for it to work. The young people that are investing are often looking for the next hot individual stock.
          angelescrest
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by angelescrest »

          Honestly, I wish I could. It would help me sharpen my edge. But nobody I know wants to talk about money, I sense it’s just too uncomfortable for them in a variety of ways. The few who say they do usually back out when it gets to even any small level of detail.
          stoptothink
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by stoptothink »

          sjl333 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:34 pm People treat you differently if they find out you have money (i.e. they will start to expect you to pay for dinner and drinks since you are "doing so well".)
          We long ago realized it was best to turn down invitations for vacations, theme parks, etc. from my in-laws, wife's siblings, and one of my sisters; we'd get there and be expected to pay for everybody. In fact, fairly recently my sister pulled the "I forgot my wallet" on my wife.
          Nowizard
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Nowizard »

          We talk finances with friends and family, but it does not have to involve specific amounts of money, just concepts. If that is uncomfortable, you may be able to find and join an investment club where the focus is on investing, though it would involve a financial commitment to purchases that would include individual stocks in almost all instances.

          Tim
          student
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by student »

          stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
          sjl333 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:34 pm People treat you differently if they find out you have money (i.e. they will start to expect you to pay for dinner and drinks since you are "doing so well".)
          We long ago realized it was best to turn down invitations for vacations, theme parks, etc. from my in-laws, wife's siblings, and one of my sisters; we'd get there and be expected to pay for everybody. In fact, fairly recently my sister pulled the "I forgot my wallet" on my wife.
          I hope your wife replied something along the line "No problem, it's on me and you can pick up the tab next time." Do you earn substantially more than them? I guess if I earn more than my siblings and they are careful with their money, I don't mind helping out every now and then.
          crre
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by crre »

          have not much until now, so thanks for the question. prompted by it, i just sent out a link to william bernstein's "if you can" to my kids, nieces and nephews, and friends for their kids. having just retired somewhat early (truth be told, it's early to them, not to me), i think they will be now inclined to believe that i am worth listening to.

          as for the past, i've had mixed success. i gifted a friend a session with a fee-only financial advisor that was a great success. my brother-in-law and his wife didn't take me up on the same offer. my other brother-in-law is too busy bragging about how much money he makes to have a discussion with, and his wife's eyes glaze over any time the discussion is not about spending. although last time we spoke i did manage to get a word in edgewise about how i managed to retire "early" by saving a lot. i could see on his face that the idea startled him. i happen to know that he and his wife spend every penny they earn and then some.

          again, thanks for the question, which prompted me to action.

          c.
          TNWoods
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by TNWoods »

          I have one friend with whom I talk in detail, other friends only in broad terms, like good habits, such as LBYM, index funds vs stocks, start early, etc. Family sort of in between. They would not be a problem in any way, I just don't want a couple of them to feel bad about their relative situation, as they are doing their best, and making good decisions, but there are limiting factors they have to deal with that I don't.

          The one friend I am comfortable with because he is making a very good salary, and was already very frugal, but was uncertain about investing, and was getting ready to start paying an advisor. I gave him a ton of reading, and talked through a bunch of stuff, and now he is comfortable on his own, and is doing well. He is a good bit younger than I am, so I know at my age he is going to be very well off, so talking specifics, sharing milestones is not at all awkward. It's nice to have someone to talk with about this stuff.

          TNWoods
          SQRT
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by SQRT »

          I’m a little surprised by the negative responses. The OP said “about this stuff” and I think he meant the investment process, That is LBYM, invest into low cost ETF’s, keep track of your spending, and finally forecasting when you can retire. Surely these topics can be discussed quite well without disclosing your own net worth, or investment earnings? I would never disclose my net worth but would certainly talk about the “process”.

          Jealousy and resentment? Sure, if you talk about how well you’ve done or how much you have.
          hnd
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by hnd »

          FrugalProfessor wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:35 pm Upon learning that a neighbor or friend is invested with Edward Jones, I almost literally have to bite my tongue to not reprimand them on the "tyranny of compounded costs" (to quote our namesake).
          thats one of the things i quickly realize when you begin to talk about this stuff. the lion share of people do not take even a remotely boglehead approach to investing. I mean we knew that obviously but it becomes apparent as they tell you what they use and you begin to do math in your head of fees and expenses and low rates of return. the biggest tongue biter for me is whole life. which is really hard as i have a real good friend who sells it.
          stoptothink
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by stoptothink »

          student wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:31 am
          stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
          sjl333 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:34 pm People treat you differently if they find out you have money (i.e. they will start to expect you to pay for dinner and drinks since you are "doing so well".)
          We long ago realized it was best to turn down invitations for vacations, theme parks, etc. from my in-laws, wife's siblings, and one of my sisters; we'd get there and be expected to pay for everybody. In fact, fairly recently my sister pulled the "I forgot my wallet" on my wife.
          I hope your wife replied something along the line "No problem, it's on me and you can pick up the tab next time." Do you earn substantially more than them? I guess if I earn more than my siblings and they are careful with their money, I don't mind helping out every now and then.
          My sister invited herself to an outing my wife was doing with the kids (local waterpark) ~2 weeks ago. My wife was gracious enough (although she did not want her to go) to say sure and then not get too angry when sister texted her that morning and asked to pick her up (15 miles in the opposite direction of the park). Then she miraculously forgot her wallet so couldn't pay for her ticket and whined all day about being hungry (wife brought food for the kids) so my wife bought her food at the park. My sister is 27, with a decent job and zero expenses (she moved back in with my parents). She has never returned the favor, in fact I don't know that I've ever been anywhere with her and she paid her own way.

          It's a lot more brazen with her family, so we just make it clear right from the start that if we go that we're not paying for everybody. We are more financially successful than these other members of our families, nonetheless I don't feel it is my responsibility to fund their leisure activities (especially when they invite me or invite themselves to mine) because we work harder than they do at building our financial resources. Wife is in 100% agreement.

          My parents, my brothers; a different story. We are a lot more open to joining them and possibly picking up the whole tab, when it is not just expected.
          Last edited by stoptothink on Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
          Life Is Good
          Posts: 45
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Life Is Good »

          My family is well aware that "I know what I'm doing" when it comes to personal finance, though they don't know my specific details. They all think because of our modest home and lifestyle that my income is about a third of what it really is. (Best they keep thinking that or they will expect nicer Christmas gifts.)

          Both my parents ask occasionally for financial advice. And my brother had tax questions a few years back and thought it best to ask me first before messing with his investments. But not too much more than that.

          There is one close friend who I do share my details with as he and I are on similar paths, same job, same place in life and we compare and contrast on occasion.

          At work, I do mention the company 401k on occasion, especially to the younger employees. We keep having issues with the IRS "highly compensated employee" caveat, so if I can encourage more of the youngsters to participate, I can actually keep more of my money invested. I give them advice if they ask.

          I recently had a coworker from long ago contact me. I didn't recognize the name, and even after he told me all about working with me, I honestly don't remember him one bit.

          "Eighteen years ago," he said, "you gave me financial advice that changed my life. I'm now a multi millionaire and have a few follow up questions!" I couldn't believe it. He was so thankful that fate brought us together all that time ago and I was beaming that I actually helped at least one person along the way. We had a great talk and hopefully I've set him on the path for his next million.
          You Know What I Mean
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by You Know What I Mean »

          Life Is Good wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:01 am My family is well aware that "I know what I'm doing" when it comes to personal finance, though they don't know my specific details. They all think because of our modest home and lifestyle that my income is about a third of what it really is. (Best they keep thinking that or they will expect nicer Christmas gifts.)

          Both my parents ask occasionally for financial advice. And my brother had tax questions a few years back and thought it best to ask me first before messing with his investments. But not too much more than that.

          At work, I do mention the company 401k on occasion, especially to the younger employees. We keep having issues with the IRS "highly compensated employee" caveat, so if I can encourage more of the youngsters to participate, I can actually keep more of my money invested. I give them advice if they ask.

          I recently had a coworker from long ago contact me. I didn't recognize the name, and even after he told me all about working with me, I honestly don't remember him one bit.

          "Eighteen years ago," he said, "you gave me financial advice that changed my life. I'm now a multi millionaire and have a few follow up questions!" I couldn't believe it. He was so thankful that fate brought us together all that time ago and I was beaming that I actually helped at least one person along the way. We had a great talk and hopefully I've set him on the path for his next million.
          That is a great story! Just because you can't help everyone doesn't mean you can't help anyone.

          When I was a manager and in-processing new employees, I was pretty much limited to the required briefings. However, that did include emphasizing the company's 401k matching funds that were "free money." It became a bit of a running joke that I would emphasize the catch phrase "free money."
          Dottie57
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Dottie57 »

          stoptothink wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:57 pm My parents came over last night to ask for my help on their 401k allocations and finally opening up IRAs. They're late 50's with zero in retirement savings to date, but trying to get moving in the right direction. My stepfather was very forward about asking how much the wife and I make and how much we have invested. He actually did something similar at last Sunday family dinner, in front of several extended family members, and I just ignored him. My wife recently has seen the downside to telling people we paid off our home, so we (as pleasantly as we could) reassured him that we'll never need help but that the details of our situation weren't any of his business.
          Wow! My parents knew all my financial info. They never told my brother anything about my finances and would never have asked especially in front of others.
          student
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by student »

          stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:59 am
          student wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:31 am
          stoptothink wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:08 am
          sjl333 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:34 pm People treat you differently if they find out you have money (i.e. they will start to expect you to pay for dinner and drinks since you are "doing so well".)
          We long ago realized it was best to turn down invitations for vacations, theme parks, etc. from my in-laws, wife's siblings, and one of my sisters; we'd get there and be expected to pay for everybody. In fact, fairly recently my sister pulled the "I forgot my wallet" on my wife.
          I hope your wife replied something along the line "No problem, it's on me and you can pick up the tab next time." Do you earn substantially more than them? I guess if I earn more than my siblings and they are careful with their money, I don't mind helping out every now and then.
          My sister invited herself to an outing my wife was doing with the kids (local waterpark) ~2 weeks ago. My wife was gracious enough (although she did not want her to go) to say sure and then not get too angry when sister texted her that morning and asked to pick her up (15 miles in the opposite direction of the park). Then she miraculously forgot her wallet so couldn't pay for her ticket and whined all day about being hungry (wife brought food for the kids) so my wife bought her food at the park. My sister is 27, with a decent job and zero expenses (she moved back in with my parents). She has never returned the favor, in fact I don't know that I've ever been anywhere with her and she paid her own way.

          It's a lot more brazen with her family, so we just make it clear right from the start that if we go that we're not paying for everybody. We are more financially successful than these other members of our families, nonetheless I don't feel it is my responsibility to fund their leisure activities (especially when they invite me or invite themselves to mine) because we work harder than they do at building our financial resources. Wife is in 100% agreement.

          My parents, my brothers; a different story. We are a lot more open to joining them and possibly picking up the whole tab, when it is not just expected.
          Thanks for responding. I would not be happy either since the other parties just want to "leech." Your wife is very very gracious in this situation.
          student
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by student »

          Life Is Good wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:01 am My family is well aware that "I know what I'm doing" when it comes to personal finance, though they don't know my specific details. They all think because of our modest home and lifestyle that my income is about a third of what it really is. (Best they keep thinking that or they will expect nicer Christmas gifts.)

          Both my parents ask occasionally for financial advice. And my brother had tax questions a few years back and thought it best to ask me first before messing with his investments. But not too much more than that.

          There is one close friend who I do share my details with as he and I are on similar paths, same job, same place in life and we compare and contrast on occasion.

          At work, I do mention the company 401k on occasion, especially to the younger employees. We keep having issues with the IRS "highly compensated employee" caveat, so if I can encourage more of the youngsters to participate, I can actually keep more of my money invested. I give them advice if they ask.

          I recently had a coworker from long ago contact me. I didn't recognize the name, and even after he told me all about working with me, I honestly don't remember him one bit.

          "Eighteen years ago," he said, "you gave me financial advice that changed my life. I'm now a multi millionaire and have a few follow up questions!" I couldn't believe it. He was so thankful that fate brought us together all that time ago and I was beaming that I actually helped at least one person along the way. We had a great talk and hopefully I've set him on the path for his next million.
          Wow.
          stoptothink
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by stoptothink »

          Dottie57 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:20 am
          stoptothink wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:57 pm My parents came over last night to ask for my help on their 401k allocations and finally opening up IRAs. They're late 50's with zero in retirement savings to date, but trying to get moving in the right direction. My stepfather was very forward about asking how much the wife and I make and how much we have invested. He actually did something similar at last Sunday family dinner, in front of several extended family members, and I just ignored him. My wife recently has seen the downside to telling people we paid off our home, so we (as pleasantly as we could) reassured him that we'll never need help but that the details of our situation weren't any of his business.
          Wow! My parents knew all my financial info. They never told my brother anything about my finances and would never have asked especially in front of others.
          To be fair, I think my step-father wants to know because he wants to brag to others. He likes to tell his extended family members and friends about my brothers' exotic cars. He knows we have a lot more than they do and (unlike other family members) has never tried to take advantage of it, but I still don't feel it is any of his business and I don't want him to be telling random strangers.
          TheDDC
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by TheDDC »

          Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:10 pm Too many ways for the conversation to go badly or have my words misconstrued as insulting, arrogance, ignorance of my privilege, or boasting about income/wealth.
          That's hysterical, because that doesn't seem to stifle anyone around here, that's for sure.

          -TheDDC
          Rules to wealth building: 90-100% VTSAX piled high and deep, 0-10% VIGAX tilt, 0% given away to banks, minimize amount given to medical-industrial complex
          TNWoods
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by TNWoods »

          SQRT wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:54 am I’m a little surprised by the negative responses. The OP said “about this stuff” and I think he meant the investment process, That is LBYM, invest into low cost ETF’s, keep track of your spending, and finally forecasting when you can retire. Surely these topics can be discussed quite well without disclosing your own net worth, or investment earnings? I would never disclose my net worth but would certainly talk about the “process”.

          Jealousy and resentment? Sure, if you talk about how well you’ve done or how much you have.
          Totally agree. That stuff I talk about whenever the topic arises.

          TNWoods
          User avatar
          TheTimeLord
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by TheTimeLord »

          SoftServeAddict wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:50 pm I really wish someone had educated me about these things a decade ago. However I know talking about money/finances is generally frowned upon socially so most people don't. Do you guys try to educate or talk to your social circle about these things? Why or why not?

          EDIT: Additional question for the OLDER Bogleheads here who are enjoying retirement but have friends who are struggling...Is there any animosity or anger that your knowledge wasn't shared with them decades ago?
          Initially I was pretty mad at them for not running their finances well and thus restricting what they can afford to do, but I am for the most part getting past that. I know that isn't what you asked but life is a 2 way street.
          IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
          Dottie57
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Dottie57 »

          h82goslw wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:15 am Never do I talk about finances in terms of absolute dollars I have saved, but I do talk about what I’ve learned here regarding expense ratios, indexing and taxes when the topic comes up.

          However, at work last week when the topic of retirement saving came up, someone who I hardly know asked me point blank how much am I saving for retirement. I was taken aback by his question but answered with “I save at least 25% of my gross income, often times more when funds allow”. There was silence from all in that discussion for a good 30 seconds....wasn’t sure how to take that.
          I am sure they were swallowing really hard. Probably spending every penny. Or they could have been awed.
          azianbob
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by azianbob »

          I rarely talk to co-workers about money because generally speaking, it leads to situations where people kind of find out how much the other is making and then things become uncomfortable. Like for instance, if you were talking about 401ks and everyone is saying yeah I just save to 6% for the company match, but someone comes out and says I save the $19,500 max, then automatically everyone will assume that person makes a lot of money to be ok with losing $20k off the bat. Then everyone is like wow how is that even possible and they say yeah it's only 10% not bad, then everyone will realize that person makes like almost $200k while most of them are in the $80-$120 range. Or someone will blurt out, how do you save like 30%? Then everyone will realize that guy makes about $65k. Then things become awkward, since you are all in similar band.

          There are a few coworkers who are very interested about retirement, we will generally discuss strategy over amounts (401k, match, IRA, HSA, pretax vs Roth, expense ratios, index vs active vs self pick, etc).

          Friends and family is similar, no one really likes knowing what the other makes because it always is not a good situation. If you make more than what people thought, then people might think you are stingy. If you make less than what they thought, their view or respect of you may go down. It's better not knowing how much is made.

          I only speak about investments and strategy with a few friends who are very interested in finances, and once again its more over strategy than the amounts. Most friends and family have their eyes glaze over when discussing retirement savings, so I know not to speak about it.

          I use the forums more as a sounding board than any of my friends as most of them live paycheck to paycheck buying the cars clothes electronics and vacations they want.
          Kelrex
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Kelrex »

          SQRT wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:54 am I’m a little surprised by the negative responses. The OP said “about this stuff” and I think he meant the investment process, That is LBYM, invest into low cost ETF’s, keep track of your spending, and finally forecasting when you can retire. Surely these topics can be discussed quite well without disclosing your own net worth, or investment earnings? I would never disclose my net worth but would certainly talk about the “process”.

          Jealousy and resentment? Sure, if you talk about how well you’ve done or how much you have.
          To be fair, talking about LBYM and tracking spending could very easily alienate someone who is bad with money, depending on how it's being talked about. That said, that doesn't mean that person doesn't want to talk about it, just that they don't want to be made to feel inferior while talking about it.

          Somewhat ironically, much of the time it's about the things that people are uncomfortable that they deep down most wish they had someone to chat with.
          johnegonpdx
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by johnegonpdx »

          I talk about it with my family only. But I've found it helpful to frame discussions carefully

          Focus on:
          - financial security needs
          - financial freedom aspirations
          - time horizons
          - risk-return tolerance.
          - cost efficient investing
          - tax efficient investing
          - strategies & options

          Avoid:
          - absolute numbers
          - comparisons between individuals
          - comparisons across generations / life stages
          - tactics and specific investment vehicles
          User avatar
          Elsebet
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Elsebet »

          Luckywon wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:58 pm I've brought up personal finance with a few young colleagues, usually they've been very interested and receptive to Boglehead type advice. At the start of my career a savvy colleague helped me get on track and I've always felt grateful for that.
          Same exact story for me, I pay it forward by trying to steer young colleagues towards Bogleheads philosophy as well.
          "...the man who adapts himself to his slender means and makes himself wealthy on a little sum, is the truly rich man..." ~Seneca
          livesoft
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by livesoft »

          bltn wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:26 amI have always believed that letting others know your finances has the potential to cause problems. I ve always been comfortable living a lifestyle below our means, and maintaining that image without exception.
          One can talk finances, investing, taxes, and many other things without letting others know your finances. Just because you talk about paying for college with your neighbors with the AOTC, 529 plans, LLC, financial aid and whatever else doesn't mess up their image of you. And even if your neighbors drive much nicer cars, does that really matter? You can imagine they got an inheritance or a bonus or a really big loan or whatever makes you feel good or bad about yourself. You can talk index funds, IRAs, Roths, whatever without revealing that you have only $1,974 in all your Vanguard accounts. And they can tell you about their escapades with TSLA without revealing they bought only 1 share.

          That said, people that I have helped have shown me their tax returns, their 401(k) statements, and other account statements. I have not shown them my tax returns, my 401(k) statements, nor any other account statements. But they weren't helping me either. And no ill will has come from any of it.
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          Independent George
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          Re: Do you talk to your friends/family/coworkers about this stuff?

          Post by Independent George »

          Family, yes; friends and co-workers only on invitation (and I never mention specifics about my own finances).

          I also hasten to add that family is easy for me because my parents are in their late 70s and actively sought my opinion, and my brother is a former hedge fund guy who went FIRE before I ever heard of the term. Neither is really a typical situation.
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