Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

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coldman
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Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by coldman »

Having lived overseas and worked for a major international company for many years, our child will be moving back to the USA to live with family. Most families send their children to attend boarding school and then on to a university (public as well as private). Our child will attend the local college in a two-year program, which allows high school students to earn college credit which counts toward the high school graduation requirements and to receive an Associate of Arts degree to transfer to many public colleges. The state will pay for the two years at the local college.

The child is socially mature to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds and equipped academically to handle the college level classes. The current career choice is to be a forensic scientist.

Going against the normal crowd of fellow employees:

Most families send their kids to 4 years of private boarding school and then to a university in Canada or the USA (private as well as public). It has been shared from various sources it is usually not important if a person attains their first degree from a public or private university.

Overall questions:

• Is a person’s ability for college choice and career success that dependent on attending a private boarding school?
• If there are the same STEM courses at the local college as there are at many private boarding schools, is there much of a difference?
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?

A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors

Please share please share your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by JoMoney »

D.
There are always lots of factors, among them is also a networking effect with their peers. Meeting and socializing with the people that will in the future be pointing them to future job opportunities, people that may already be connected with families and jobs following the path that crowd does as a crowd.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by galawdawg »

In the US, very few families send their children to private boarding schools, generally those families are quite wealthy.

IMHO, a primary success factor for any student is work ethic. Students from disadvantaged areas and poorly performing public schools can and do excel in top tier universities if they have the determination, grit and discipline to succeed. On the other hand, there are students in some of the most highly regarded elite boarding schools who don't succeed because they are unmotivated, lazy and lack drive.

You know your student better than anybody else and what environment will provide them the tools they need to succeed. The dual enrollment option you mention (or alternatively, advanced placement classes) is an excellent option for achievers to earn college credit while in high school.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by WhyNotUs »

The private boarding/Ivy League school track is pretty well proven and that is what they are selling.

It seems like a relic of days gone by to me. There are many excellent public colleges and universities that can help one learn about a field. Career success is part timing (macro economy and field of endeavor chosen), part personal motivation, and part luck. Having a good life is somewhat independent of any of these if one is fulfilled by their work.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by VictoriaF »

I recommend that you watch a film Dead Poets Society. It shows the good and the bad of boarding schools.

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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Jags4186 »

FWIW I went to what many would consider an “elite” university and everyone I met who went to a boarding school was, for the most part, completely out of touch with reality. And I say this having gone to a private, non-boarding, high school. That may work if you manage to live your entire life in that circle, but most of us don’t have that luxury.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by livesoft »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:29 am FWIW I went to what many would consider an “elite” university and everyone I met who went to a boarding school was, for the most part, completely out of touch with reality.
That's not saying much because I hypothesize that most 16-24 year olds supported by their parents are out of touch with reality. Why just yesterday my son told me that he learned that a "forever stamp" could not be used over and over again, but could only be used one time. "Well, it's a forever stamp, that means it can be used forever, right?"
In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
The parents of the person.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by JBTX »

• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Jags4186 »

livesoft wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:37 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:29 am FWIW I went to what many would consider an “elite” university and everyone I met who went to a boarding school was, for the most part, completely out of touch with reality.
That's not saying much because I hypothesize that most 16-24 year olds supported by their parents are out of touch with reality. Why just yesterday my son told me that he learned that a "forever stamp" could not be used over and over again, but could only be used one time. "Well, it's a forever stamp, that means it can be used forever, right?"
Touche’
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by jakehefty17 »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am Overall questions:

• Is a person’s ability for college choice and career success that dependent on attending a private boarding school?
• If there are the same STEM courses at the local college as there are at many private boarding schools, is there much of a difference?
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?

A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors

Please share please share your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.
Prelude - I'm from the US and can't offer perspective on education elsewhere.

My thoughts: It all depends on what career you're going into and what you define as success.

My opinions:
1. I don't believe a person's ability for college choice or attending of private school determines their career success. It can help, but it's a small part of the puzzle. Influence from family, friends, mentors and teachers are a bigger portion of the puzzle. Personal motivation and perspective as well.

2. The first two years of college are usually general education classes and can be taken at a community college. I'd actually recommend community college classes first, due to smaller class sizes. It's much easier to consult the professor during or after class when you have questions or need help. Make sure the transfer credits qualify at whatever university they plan to eventually attend to finish the four year degree.

THE EXCEPTION TO THIS would be if the student has already taken their general education courses for college credit in high school. These students may want to consider going straight into their eventual school of choice. Depends on if and when specialized courses are needed.

3. What determines success in university & career? Perspective, work ethic, and goal setting.

Here's my experience:
Upper Lower/Lower middle class family (depending on dad's contract work). I taught karate part-time in high school, and deeply enjoyed the experience. Out of high school, I started off at a state university wanting to be a physics teacher. I was an honor student, accepted at state university known for teaching degree. Learned a lot more living on campus and being exposed to LIFE in general than I did in classes. Dropped out the end of my sophomore year, right about when I entered Calculus 2 and started questioning what the hell I was doing with my life. Lived on my own for 2 years working full time at a near minimum-wage job, looking for an opportunity get a foot in the door at the local electrician's union. Learned the real value of money and the utter despair of being stuck in a place/situation I didn't want to be.

My dad saw a news report about a new 2 year program at a community college to become a nuclear technician at a nearby plant. Called the school to apply, they weren't sure if it would be started that semester or not. Applied, called once a week to see if there was any news or anything else I could do to help my chances. I'll always remember when I got the phone call that I was accepted to the program. I knew in that moment that my life was going to change. Spent 2 years working part-time at my job while commuting to classes. Graduated, hired, and working 4 years.

If I hadn't dropped out and worked the minimum wage job devoid of opportunity, I wouldn't have appreciated the opportunity of the program. Funny thing is, I make significantly more money now with my 2 year degree than I ever would as a physics teacher. I can guarantee this job suits me better as well. I would tell you that I think perspective is the #1 factor that drove my success.
[EDIT]: Also, I am now a member of the electricians union. At the time, I didn't know the plant was unionized. So, in a roundabout way, I did end up being an "electrician" as I had set out to do. Funny how life plays out.

All that said, it's heavily dependent on the person. Make sure that the student is the primary decision maker. It's their journey.

Hopefully my journey can offer you some perspective.
Last edited by jakehefty17 on Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by HomerJ »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am Having lived overseas and worked for a major international company for many years, our child will be moving back to the USA to live with family. Most families send their children to attend boarding school and then on to a university (public as well as private). Our child will attend the local college in a two-year program, which allows high school students to earn college credit which counts toward the high school graduation requirements and to receive an Associate of Arts degree to transfer to many public colleges. The state will pay for the two years at the local college.

The child is socially mature to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds and equipped academically to handle the college level classes. The current career choice is to be a forensic scientist.

Going against the normal crowd of fellow employees:

Most families send their kids to 4 years of private boarding school and then to a university in Canada or the USA (private as well as public). It has been shared from various sources it is usually not important if a person attains their first degree from a public or private university.

Overall questions:

• Is a person’s ability for college choice and career success that dependent on attending a private boarding school?
• If there are the same STEM courses at the local college as there are at many private boarding schools, is there much of a difference?
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?

A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors

Please share please share your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.
Did YOU go to private boarding school?

Yet somehow you have achieved enough success to work overseas internationally, and become rich enough to afford 4 years of boarding school and 4 years of private college for your child.

So what do you think?
Last edited by HomerJ on Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by HomerJ »

galawdawg wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:20 am IMHO, a primary success factor for any student is work ethic. Students from disadvantaged areas and poorly performing public schools can and do excel in top tier universities if they have the determination, grit and discipline to succeed. On the other hand, there are students in some of the most highly regarded elite boarding schools who don't succeed because they are unmotivated, lazy and lack drive.
Exactly. It's not the school. It's the kid.

Kids who are good enough to get into Harvard, but don't go, do nearly as well as kids who do go to Harvard.
You know your student better than anybody else and what environment will provide them the tools they need to succeed. The dual enrollment option you mention (or alternatively, advanced placement classes) is an excellent option for achievers to earn college credit while in high school.
I agree.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by nisiprius »

It should be fine. This is a controversial topic.

0) What does your kid want? Sure, he's too young to decide but...

1) The elephant in the room is "social prestige." The pretense is that it is all about academic excellence. The reality is that Harvard, for example, considers "lineage" as one of the factors it takes into account in deciding on admissions. However, the most elite schools socially actually are superior academically as well, so it is easy to maintain the pretense.

Of 45 US Presidents, five attended Harvard, three Yale, and three Princeton. I don't want to get into any deep statistical or sociological analysis, or debate how true it is in 2020, just to say that this is not a phony association.

2) What tends to matter is "the last thing." For example, the big-deal high-prestige door-opening business degree is an MBA from Harvard Business School. (Wharton boosters, peace). But it's the MBA that matters, and you can get into the Harvard MBA program with a University of Massachusetts business degree... and you can get admitted to Harvard as an undergraduate having gone to a public high school.

Now back in 1895 when a knowledge of Latin was part of the Harvard admissions exam, you had better have gone to a private boarding school--"prep school" that taught Latin (or some of the public high schools that taught it).

3) My knowledge of boarding "prep schools" (the Lawrenceville School, Philips Exeter, St. Paul's, whatever) and their British "public" school counterparts--is based only on reading novels... and, of course, newspaper stories of scandals. There's enough there to give me at least some reservations about what happens to adolescents in these settings. Not that they are necessarily safe in a public high school, of course.

4) It's all about the mysterious magic, whether or not the student encountered a teacher who strikes a spark. The difference between the experience of one student and another at any school is a gazillion times greater than anything you can say about averages between schools. Just to mention one factor, and a very tricky one: the "top" schools are likely to be full of professors whose career progress depends more on their research than on their teaching. On the other hand it is stimulating and offers opportunities (e.g. summer jobs) to be in contact with people who are really working in the field they are teaching. To mention another, the thing that puts a school at the top of the rankings is that they are just plain excellent in everything. But a lower-ranked school may be absolutely tops in some fields. To take a very obvious one, Cornell has a hotel school, and relatively few universities do. If a student is interested in a hotel management career, then Cornell is probably a better choice than Harvard, regardless of what their overall rankings might be.
Last edited by nisiprius on Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by MMiroir »

In my experience, people who choose private boarding schools did so for factors that were not listed. They include:

Academics - This seems obvious, but most of the time people are trying to escape below average schools rather than trying to reach the Ivy League. There is a private boarding school in the northern suburbs of Milwaukee that pulls in kids of professional parents in other parts of the state that otherwise only have access to mediocre rural schools. Most of their graduates end up at UW Madison, and the parents are happy with this. Every major city in the US will have at least one boarding school like this.

Security - Wealthy people or those in day to day management will keep their kids out of the public school system to protect them. For example, a manager of a large industrial facility in rural Kentucky we know sends his kids to a boarding school in Louisville because he is afraid that people he fires or the kids of people he fires might take it out on his kids if they went to the local public. Sending them far away is a prudent decision from a safety aspect.

Sports - This seems the most popular reason among some of the parent we know. Parents want to ensure that their kids start in the sport they love. It is much easier to be on the starting lineup in any sports at a school with 500 students than one with 2,500, and academics are a small part of the equation.

Religion - Although less true in boarding schools compared to private day schools, some people will prioritize religious needs over other factors.

Discipline/Special Needs - A friend of ours had a child with some emotional/psychiatric issues in elementary school. After elementary school, she was transferred to a military academy boarding school in another state, and the girl ended up attending West Point. Given the kids condition in high school, this was a phenomenal result.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Angst »

jakehefty17 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:14 am
Here's my experience:
Upper Lower/Lower middle class family (depending on dad's contract work). I taught karate part-time in high school, and deeply enjoyed the experience. Out of high school, I started off at a state university wanting to be a physics teacher. I was an honor student, accepted at state university known for teaching degree. Learned a lot more living on campus and being exposed to LIFE in general than I did in classes. Dropped out the end of my sophomore year, right about when I entered Calculus 2 and started questioning what the hell I was doing with my life. Lived on my own for 2 years working full time at a near minimum-wage job, looking for an opportunity get a foot in the door at the local electrician's union. Learned the real value of money and the utter despair of being stuck in a place/situation I didn't want to be.

My dad saw a news report about a new 2 year program at a community college to become a nuclear technician at a nearby plant. Called the school to apply, they weren't sure if it would be started that semester or not. Applied, called once a week to see if there was any news or anything else I could do to help my chances. I'll always remember when I got the phone call that I was accepted to the program. I knew in that moment that my life was going to change. Spent 2 years working part-time at my job while commuting to classes. Graduated, hired, and working 4 years.

If I hadn't dropped out and worked the minimum wage job devoid of opportunity, I wouldn't have appreciated the opportunity of the program. Funny thing is, I make significantly more money now with my 2 year degree than I ever would as a physics teacher. I can guarantee this job suits me better as well. I would tell you that I think perspective is the #1 factor that drove my success.
[EDIT]: Also, I am now a member of the electricians union. At the time, I didn't know the plant was unionized. So, in a roundabout way, I did end up being an "electrician" as I had set out to do. Funny how life plays out.

All that said, it's heavily dependent on the person. Make sure that the student is the primary decision maker. It's their journey.

Hopefully my journey can offer you some perspective.
That's a great story - there are opportunities out there. Good for you.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by MMiroir »

nisiprius wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:52 am2) What tends to matter is "the last thing." For example, the big-deal high-prestige door-opening business degree is an MBA from Harvard Business School. (Wharton boosters, peace). But it's the MBA that matters, and you can get into the Harvard MBA program with a University of Massachusetts business degree... and you can get admitted to Harvard as an undergraduate having gone to a public high school.
You can get to HBS from a mediocre state flagship, but if you look at admissions to the top professional schools, the Harvards of the world give significant preference to graduates of other prestigious private schools. For every student HBS takes from UConn, they will take two dozen from Yale.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by dodecahedron »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:49 am
livesoft wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:37 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:29 am FWIW I went to what many would consider an “elite” university and everyone I met who went to a boarding school was, for the most part, completely out of touch with reality.
That's not saying much because I hypothesize that most 16-24 year olds supported by their parents are out of touch with reality. Why just yesterday my son told me that he learned that a "forever stamp" could not be used over and over again, but could only be used one time. "Well, it's a forever stamp, that means it can be used forever, right?"
Touche’
Reminds me of a college student who was prepared to tell a taxpayer that she could not use her ¨cancelled¨ check as evidence of donation to charity. Amount was under $250 and payee was a 501c3, so it was definitely legit proof under IRS rules but the student thought that ¨cancelled¨ meant voided. (College students do not appear to use checks, just debit cards. Student had never seen a cancelled check before.)
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by coldman »

No, my wife and I did not go to boarding school. Both of us went through the public schools K-12 and met at a state university. The company we work for operates a private school K-9 and then pays for students to attend boarding schools around the world. The decision to not have our child attend a boarding school is going against the choices most families make.

Neither one of us come from money, working internationally was partly luck. We moved to take jobs in the country when no one else was willing to come. Until now we have always been with our children to guide and work with them academically or socially.

When you make a choice different from everyone else in the room, the rest of the room will express the wrong choice is being made.

Experience is: a strong work ethic, adult guidance/counseling, knowing where to find resources, and motivation will determine success.

My opinion is: a strong work ethic, adult guidance/counseling, knowing where to find resources, and motivation will determine success.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by sd323232 »

But what is definition of success? Is it only to have high paying job?

There are people out there who are experts in their field, have numerous awards but still broke because they are in a field that does not pay much to begin with. Are they successfull or failures?

From my personal experience the field of study matters more than everything else when it comes to getting high paying job. If the kid gets stem degree, he can go to no name school and still get a high paying job.

Do you need to make alot of money to be successfull? I dont know.

Person can live paycheck to paycheck but still be happy.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Mudpuppy »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am Going against the normal crowd of fellow employees:

Most families send their kids to 4 years of private boarding school and then to a university in Canada or the USA (private as well as public). It has been shared from various sources it is usually not important if a person attains their first degree from a public or private university.
It's all about perspective. Where I grew up, most families were lucky if their kids graduated from public high school, much less went to college. My parents had to sign up for the high school AP assistance program to pay for the fee for me to take AP tests, because they could not afford it out-of-pocket. I had to go to a local state university, instead of the state flagship university where I was also accepted, because we could not afford the state flagship university. And I was still accepted to a state flagship university for graduate school, where I earned my Ph.D., even with all of that.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by coldman »

It is interesting to think about success and what it means. When people make a choice other than what the majority have chosen, it is frowned upon. Not going to boarding school, which is paid for by the company, is the same as turning down the ownership of a free horse. A free horse still needs to be fed and looked after by a veterinarian which costs money. Going to boarding school seems to be a positive experience for 50 percent of the kids who attend. Some kids do well, others dislike it without sharing the dislike with parents. Other kids have major challenges and need to find a different school because things were so bad.

There are different paths to reach the same destination and different definitions for success. Our goal is for the child to have a positive high school/college experience to transfer to another university to continue their education. The world is a different place now and people will realistically change careers paths/jobs more frequently. The other goal is to teach flexibility for being persistent to strategize how to succeed in a variety of situations.

Part of a person finding success is knowing what they do not want as well as what they do want. At the end of all of this, people need to define their own definition of success.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by cs412a »

JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
It's not quite that simple: https://bpac.org.nz/BPJ/2008/September/ ... es_4-5.pdf

An article (whose key contributor is Richie Poulton, the Director of the Dunedin Project) describes some of the findings of that research and notes that:

"To understand why people turn out the way they do (in terms of physical disease or behavioural outcomes), information about their genetic makeup needs to be carefully considered alongside information about what has happened to them in their lives."

"In all the studies . . . the genes by themselves told us nothing. It was only when we looked at the genes working in association with environmental influences that we were able to predict outcomes."

Another article on social genomics in general (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03171-6) states:

"Caveats abound. The genetic contribution to any behavioural trait is relatively small and easily swamped by the influence of the environment. The studies can reveal only whether someone is likely to have a certain trait, and cannot predict the qualities of any one individual. Most scientists are quick to point out why they do this work — to establish what role, if any, genetics has in behaviour — and to lay out its limitations [underscoring supplied]."
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by TropikThunder »

JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
A statement like that really needs some citation, don’t you think? It’s certainly controversial to say the least.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by muffins14 »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am
A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors
Private boarding school is absolutely not necessary.
A person should find their own motivation rather than just being influenced by their peers, though have good mentors is very helpful
Private university also absolutely not necessary

I'll go with D
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by BolderBoy »

livesoft wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:37 am
In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
The parents of the person.
+1. And the research supports that answer as well.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by jarjarM »

My older cousin send his kid to a private boarding school (rare here in CA).
My niece went to a charter school.
My younger cousin went to a not-so-good public shool.

My older cousin's kid went to Univ of Boston.
My niece went to UT Austin.
My younger cousin went to Duke.

So my sample size of 3 saids that private boarding school is not as important.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Isabelle77 »

I went to a fancy boarding school in Canada, paid for (at least in part) by the company my father worked for.

Do I think it had any impact on my success? Well, I'm a stay at home mom :) so no. Many of the people I went to school with are extremely successful, but honestly, the connections they made through their families is a very large part of that. My husband, who supports us financially, went to terrible public schools. We do not send our children to boarding schools.

A few other thoughts though.

I received an excellent education in boarding school. That's not always the case btw, we looked at one for our children and it seemed mostly centered on social justice type projects and cool trips. Many boarding schools now, including the one I went to, are very focused on recruiting wealthy international students, not on providing an excellent education.

I was accepted into many excellent colleges that I probably would not have been if I had not attended boarding school.

I was exposed to students from all over the world, who had diverse global outlooks that you would never find in a local public or private school. I can visit most parts of the world and share a drink with someone I went to high school with.

I absolutely loved my time in boarding school. LOVED IT. My closest friends today, at 43, are still from my time then. It was still a little Dead Poets' Society when I was in school, I'm not sure that's accurate today. I loved the very British traditions of my Canadian boarding school, the house rivalries, the prefect system, the embracing of literature and history. I think that's changed quite a bit, it probably needed to.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by BarbBrooklyn »

How well do you know the folks you are sending your teenage-ed child to live with?

Do they share you values as to sexuality, gender, behavior, discipline and other really important issues?

What sort of cohort will your child share in the community college you are proposing? Are they strivers of various ethnicities, or are they slackers who can't get into "regular" college. And which crowd will attract your child, fresh from a different culture?

Cheap is not free.

My brother made a huge error and sent his very bright eldest to community college in (state unnamed) rather that flagship uni in that state. Because it was free. Child had no intellectual peers. This story does not end well. As I said, cheap, or even free, is not without costs. Both younger children have gone to flagship state U.

I went to an elite college with a lot of women who went to boarding school; they were much better read than I. They also knew better how to ask for help when they needed it, because they didn't assume that their deficiencies were internal to them.

Best of luck .
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by randomguy »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:23 pm
coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am
A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors
Private boarding school is absolutely not necessary.
A person should find their own motivation rather than just being influenced by their peers, though have good mentors is very helpful
Private university also absolutely not necessary

I'll go with D
The question is in this situation is private boarding school better than this alternative. It isn't clear to me exactly what we are talking about here. Are we talking like a 18 year old who is done with HS but needs to do some work before a 4 year school or a 14 year old about to start to HS?
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Maverick3320 »

sd323232 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:34 pm But what is definition of success? Is it only to have high paying job?

There are people out there who are experts in their field, have numerous awards but still broke because they are in a field that does not pay much to begin with. Are they successfull or failures?

From my personal experience the field of study matters more than everything else when it comes to getting high paying job. If the kid gets stem degree, he can go to no name school and still get a high paying job.

Do you need to make alot of money to be successfull? I dont know.

Person can live paycheck to paycheck but still be happy.
Maybe I'm looking at this from a "puritanical" perspective, but living paycheck to paycheck puts a lot of people dangerously close to relying on others to pay the bills. Should that be considered successful? (I honestly don't know).
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by sd323232 »

Maverick3320 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:34 pm
sd323232 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:34 pm But what is definition of success? Is it only to have high paying job?

There are people out there who are experts in their field, have numerous awards but still broke because they are in a field that does not pay much to begin with. Are they successfull or failures?

From my personal experience the field of study matters more than everything else when it comes to getting high paying job. If the kid gets stem degree, he can go to no name school and still get a high paying job.

Do you need to make alot of money to be successfull? I dont know.

Person can live paycheck to paycheck but still be happy.
Maybe I'm looking at this from a "puritanical" perspective, but living paycheck to paycheck puts a lot of people dangerously close to relying on others to pay the bills. Should that be considered successful? (I honestly don't know).
Say someone goes to Harvard and gets degree in English and graduates with 200k school loan. Then, gets dream job as English teacher that pays 40k. That loan will never be paid off. The person has stellar career as English teacher for next 30 years. The school loan stays at 200k at best, at worst growth to 300k+. Would that be success? Person worked at dream job, but not financially successful
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Mudpuppy »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am Our child will attend the local college in a two-year program, which allows high school students to earn college credit which counts toward the high school graduation requirements and to receive an Associate of Arts degree to transfer to many public colleges. The state will pay for the two years at the local college.
I was just reading a newspaper article on a similar program and the comments reminded me of the following cautions. Check very carefully on what sort of associate's degree will be awarded and what the conditions are on getting the degree awarded. For example, the program in the article required participation for all four years of high school to get the associate's degree, otherwise the students just received credit for some courses.

Also look into the transferability of those courses to public four-year institutions. Courses can transfer to four-year universities in two general fashions: just for units (doesn't help degree progress) or for a specific course (might help with degree progress if it's a required course). You'd want the vast majority of the community college courses taken in high school to transfer for a specific course at the local public university that is likely to be a degree requirement (general education courses or something really common like calculus for STEM students). The transferability of the courses will also vary if your child ends up going to a private four-year university or one in another state, as community colleges usually only have agreements with regional public universities.

In California, there is also the added wrinkle of having two types of associate degrees, with the associate's degree for transfer providing more protections and benefits for students who transfer to a CSU or UC than the plain vanilla associate's degree. That's probably very California specific though, so not as big of a concern to those in other areas.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

If your goal is Ivy League/MIT/Stanford, boarding school may provide an edge. From the perspective of most normal middle class families, it would never occur to them to send their kids to boarding school.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

cs412a wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
It's not quite that simple: https://bpac.org.nz/BPJ/2008/September/ ... es_4-5.pdf

An article (whose key contributor is Richie Poulton, the Director of the Dunedin Project) describes some of the findings of that research and notes that:

"To understand why people turn out the way they do (in terms of physical disease or behavioural outcomes), information about their genetic makeup needs to be carefully considered alongside information about what has happened to them in their lives."

"In all the studies . . . the genes by themselves told us nothing. It was only when we looked at the genes working in association with environmental influences that we were able to predict outcomes."

Another article on social genomics in general (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03171-6) states:

"Caveats abound. The genetic contribution to any behavioural trait is relatively small and easily swamped by the influence of the environment. The studies can reveal only whether someone is likely to have a certain trait, and cannot predict the qualities of any one individual. Most scientists are quick to point out why they do this work — to establish what role, if any, genetics has in behaviour — and to lay out its limitations [underscoring supplied]."
This is over-stating the case in the other direction. Identical twins raised apart have significant similarities in numerous ways.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... cs/560189/
Last edited by oldfort on Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

HomerJ wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:29 am
galawdawg wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:20 am IMHO, a primary success factor for any student is work ethic. Students from disadvantaged areas and poorly performing public schools can and do excel in top tier universities if they have the determination, grit and discipline to succeed. On the other hand, there are students in some of the most highly regarded elite boarding schools who don't succeed because they are unmotivated, lazy and lack drive.
Exactly. It's not the school. It's the kid.

Kids who are good enough to get into Harvard, but don't go, do nearly as well as kids who do go to Harvard.
You know your student better than anybody else and what environment will provide them the tools they need to succeed. The dual enrollment option you mention (or alternatively, advanced placement classes) is an excellent option for achievers to earn college credit while in high school.
I agree.
Kids who get admitted to Harvard and don’t go, usually attend Yale, MIT, or some other ultra-selective college.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by mrspock »

Having been schooled in Canada and then working in a top tier US company, here are my observations:

1. Canada - University is far more of a meritocracy. They look at a broad x-section of courses form high school, tally up the averages and then you are in or out of your chosen school (if direct entry is allowed) based on the marks. There is no SAT or essays to write (both of which are heavily coached in the US). Secondly the cost is much lower, so you will compete against people from all social and economic backgrounds. Raw brains, work ethic wins... money won’t help you.

2. USA - It struck me as odd that many of my colleagues in the US came from ... shall we say “well to do” families — from very good schools. This raised an eyebrow when I moved here (are all the rich kids smart in America?). Best I can tell, there’s a bunch of ways in the US wealthy families can stack the deck in favor of their offspring: SATs — coached like crazy, high tuition pricing out the competition, public school tax regimes (richer areas have more funding for their schools) and “legacy” programs.

So, if your kid isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer, send them to America, their system can give your kid an edge. If they are legit smart and you have the cash it’s up to you, if they can get into a school with name recognition, it might be worth going in the US.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Isabelle77 »

mrspock wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:33 pm Having been schooled in Canada and then working in a top tier US company, here are my observations:

1. Canada - University is far more of a meritocracy. They look at a broad x-section of courses form high school, tally up the averages and then you are in or out of your chosen school (if direct entry is allowed) based on the marks. There is no SAT or essays to write (both of which are heavily coached in the US). Secondly the cost is much lower, so you will compete against people from all social and economic backgrounds. Raw brains, work ethic wins... money won’t help you.

2. USA - It struck me as odd that many of my colleagues in the US came from ... shall we say “well to do” families — from very good schools. This raised an eyebrow when I moved here (are all the rich kids smart in America?). Best I can tell, there’s a bunch of ways in the US wealthy families can stack the deck in favor of their offspring: SATs — coached like crazy, high tuition pricing out the competition, public school tax regimes (richer areas have more funding for their schools) and “legacy” programs.

So, if your kid isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer, send them to America, their system can give your kid an edge. If they are legit smart and you have the cash it’s up to you, if they can get into a school with name recognition, it might be worth going in the US.
There is grade inflation in Canada among the top private schools, our guidance counselor used to tell us "well, your OACs will be higher because we're accounting for the deficit in the public school education". I don't know anyone who didn't get into their first choice school in the 90s. And once they're out of University, wealthy Canadian kids are every bit as privileged as Americans when it comes to job offers and future prospects. I agree with you that applying to Canadian schools is more equitable, but the idea that just brains and work ethic are all that matters, is sadly not the case. The privileged are privileged everywhere.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

Genes matter, but so does having wealthy parents. The entire highly selective college admissions process is designed to transmit privilege from one generation of the elite to the next.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Lynette »

Deleted
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JBTX
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by JBTX »

TropikThunder wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:14 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
A statement like that really needs some citation, don’t you think? It’s certainly controversial to say the least.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/211-the- ... an-nature/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... ture-wins/

I'm not an expert on the subject. Just heard the podcast. Googling finds that he has its critics. I have no idea if the criticism is based on sound science or just attacking the message because the implications are uncomfortable to them.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by mrspock »

Isabelle77 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:47 pm
mrspock wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:33 pm Having been schooled in Canada and then working in a top tier US company, here are my observations:

1. Canada - University is far more of a meritocracy. They look at a broad x-section of courses form high school, tally up the averages and then you are in or out of your chosen school (if direct entry is allowed) based on the marks. There is no SAT or essays to write (both of which are heavily coached in the US). Secondly the cost is much lower, so you will compete against people from all social and economic backgrounds. Raw brains, work ethic wins... money won’t help you.

2. USA - It struck me as odd that many of my colleagues in the US came from ... shall we say “well to do” families — from very good schools. This raised an eyebrow when I moved here (are all the rich kids smart in America?). Best I can tell, there’s a bunch of ways in the US wealthy families can stack the deck in favor of their offspring: SATs — coached like crazy, high tuition pricing out the competition, public school tax regimes (richer areas have more funding for their schools) and “legacy” programs.

So, if your kid isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer, send them to America, their system can give your kid an edge. If they are legit smart and you have the cash it’s up to you, if they can get into a school with name recognition, it might be worth going in the US.
There is grade inflation in Canada among the top private schools, our guidance counselor used to tell us "well, your OACs will be higher because we're accounting for the deficit in the public school education". I don't know anyone who didn't get into their first choice school in the 90s. And once they're out of University, wealthy Canadian kids are every bit as privileged as Americans when it comes to job offers and future prospects. I agree with you that applying to Canadian schools is more equitable, but the idea that just brains and work ethic are all that matters, is sadly not the case. The privileged are privileged everywhere.
Just to add some numbers to this, Canada's system is far more equitable my almost any measure. There are approximately 2k [2] private schools in Canada. vs. 34k [3] in the USA -- nearly 1.8x more per capita. 5.6% of students enrolled in private schools vs. 10% in the USA. That's a very big difference.

They are not every bit as privileged, not even close. Furthermore, there are nearly no private post secondary institutions in Canada (all but one, religious in nature [1]) -- and all of the best schools are public and without legacy programs (this would be scandalous in Canadian society). Again, big difference. Finally, how exactly does grade inflation work when most provinces have standardized provincial curriculum, combined with standardized provincial exams for University Entrance? That answer? It's far more muted, and far more difficult to tutor (buy) yourself into a good grade (it's 5-7 exams in high school worth between 30-50% [4] of the final grade vs. 1 SAT).

I could go on... but you get the idea. Privilege may exist everywhere, but some places make it a great deal more difficult to get an edge. The US system, by my eye almost entrenches or does it by design -- which I get -- those who have all the chips in this game of life want to keep them.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to the Vulcan Science Academy, I need to pick up my kid. :P

[1] http://higheredstrategy.com/why-dont-we ... in-canada/
[2] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... e-schools/
[3] https://www.capenet.org/facts.html
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... aminations
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by cs412a »

oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:29 pm
cs412a wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
It's not quite that simple: https://bpac.org.nz/BPJ/2008/September/ ... es_4-5.pdf

An article (whose key contributor is Richie Poulton, the Director of the Dunedin Project) describes some of the findings of that research and notes that:

"To understand why people turn out the way they do (in terms of physical disease or behavioural outcomes), information about their genetic makeup needs to be carefully considered alongside information about what has happened to them in their lives."

"In all the studies . . . the genes by themselves told us nothing. It was only when we looked at the genes working in association with environmental influences that we were able to predict outcomes."

Another article on social genomics in general (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03171-6) states:

"Caveats abound. The genetic contribution to any behavioural trait is relatively small and easily swamped by the influence of the environment. The studies can reveal only whether someone is likely to have a certain trait, and cannot predict the qualities of any one individual. Most scientists are quick to point out why they do this work — to establish what role, if any, genetics has in behaviour — and to lay out its limitations [underscoring supplied]."
This is over-stating the case in the other direction. Identical twins raised apart have significant similarities in numerous ways.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... cs/560189/
Actually, the article you mention does not support the claim that outcomes are determined by genetic factors - it presents evidence that even for identical twins, it is the gene-environment relationship that is important. In fact, the title of the article is "Identical Twins Hint at How Environments Change Gene Expression". From the article:

"Manel Esteller, the director of the Cancer Epigenetics and Biology Program at the Bellvitge Biomedical Research Institute in Barcelona led one of the earliest efforts to identify differences in gene-expression “portraits” of monozygotic twins. “We saw that different lifestyles were able to create divergent epigenomes,” Esteller says. And the changes grew more contrasting in the twins as they aged."
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by drake19 »

You have gotten lots of opinions. I am assuming that you have an incoming 9th grader for the 20-21 school year.

1. Earning an AA degree by the end of high school: Don't bother. I do think that dual enrollment classes are not a bad idea, but I would not waste electives to earn an AA degree. They are basically useless.

2. I went to a private university and have taken a few community college courses over the years in a couple of different states. In all cases these community college courses were nowhere near as rigorous as my university courses.

3. Covid-19: How is distance learning going in the public school you may be sending your child to? This past year, I had one in public MS and one in private high school. When schools shifted to distance learning in March, the private school distance learning was much better. Thankfully we had already planned to do private HS for my younger kid. In normal times, I don't think the public vs. private HS stuff really matters much for UMC kids. We are in uncharted territory and public schools have a lot of challenges that privates don't have to deal with. Even if we have a vaccine in late 2020, kids are not going to be able to get it anytime soon. Depending on the area of the country, there could be disruptions in education for the next couple of years.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by OnTrack2020 »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:57 pm It is interesting to think about success and what it means. When people make a choice other than what the majority have chosen, it is frowned upon. Not going to boarding school, which is paid for by the company, is the same as turning down the ownership of a free horse. A free horse still needs to be fed and looked after by a veterinarian which costs money. Going to boarding school seems to be a positive experience for 50 percent of the kids who attend. Some kids do well, others dislike it without sharing the dislike with parents. Other kids have major challenges and need to find a different school because things were so bad.

There are different paths to reach the same destination and different definitions for success. Our goal is for the child to have a positive high school/college experience to transfer to another university to continue their education. The world is a different place now and people will realistically change careers paths/jobs more frequently. The other goal is to teach flexibility for being persistent to strategize how to succeed in a variety of situations.

Part of a person finding success is knowing what they do not want as well as what they do want. At the end of all of this, people need to define their own definition of success.
The title of this post should read: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd At the Company I Work For
coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:03 am Having lived overseas and worked for a major international company for many years, our child will be moving back to the USA to live with family. Most families send their children to attend boarding school and then on to a university (public as well as private). Our child will attend the local college in a two-year program, which allows high school students to earn college credit which counts toward the high school graduation requirements and to receive an Associate of Arts degree to transfer to many public colleges. The state will pay for the two years at the local college.

The child is socially mature to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds and equipped academically to handle the college level classes. The current career choice is to be a forensic scientist.

Going against the normal crowd of fellow employees:

Most families send their kids to 4 years of private boarding school and then to a university in Canada or the USA (private as well as public). It has been shared from various sources it is usually not important if a person attains their first degree from a public or private university.

Overall questions:

• Is a person’s ability for college choice and career success that dependent on attending a private boarding school?
• If there are the same STEM courses at the local college as there are at many private boarding schools, is there much of a difference?
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?

A. private boarding school opportunities
B. influence from family, friends, mentors, teachers,
C. private boarding school and private university
D. other as there are too many determining factors

Please share please share your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.
1. In the area of the country where we live, have not heard of anyone who has sent their child to a private boarding school. No, a person's ability for college choice and career success is not dependent on attending a private boarding school.
2. Local colleges, specifically community colleges, are more focused on general education classes for those who are planning on transferring to a 4-year college/university or more specialized training which may be of benefit to local employers in the area tied to the community college.
3. In my opinion, the drive of the child, and support of parents/family members, determines college success in terms of the child actually graduating from college. Career success is another ball game because there are too many variables. You may start your career doing well, but then be laid off, switch fields, health deteriorates, etc. I agree with you that people have different views on what the word "success" means.
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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Nowizard »

Networking occurs very early among those with unlimited aspirations, so the psychology of the family is an important consideration. For example, we wished to support public schools, sent our children there in accelerated programs, and are very pleased with the results leading to a Ph.D. for one child, an MBA from a top 10 school for the other. Most anyone would say their current job positions reflect stability and success. On the other hand, we have friends who are extremely wealthy who started early in preparing their children for the same outcome. Comments they have made include that they would "Never" send children to a public school, "Never" consider a school other than a specific, Ivy League one, etc. On one occasion when we were considering moving to another state for retirement, they suggested we look at an area where they had a second home. Though they felt we would like the area, they said the negative would be the people all went to that same, Ivy League school and would not be socially involved with us and our own, state university conveyed doctoral degrees. They, and their children, are very wealthy compared to other friends and their approach has worked very well for them. Though the above may sound very elitist and discriminatory, they are compassionate, involved, caring and ethical in every sense. They took a different path. Theirs worked for them, ours for us. There are many roads to Dublin, as Taylor, a major contributor to this site, says.

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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by CyclingDuo »

coldman wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:18 pm No, my wife and I did not go to boarding school. Both of us went through the public schools K-12 and met at a state university. The company we work for operates a private school K-9 and then pays for students to attend boarding schools around the world. The decision to not have our child attend a boarding school is going against the choices most families make.

Neither one of us come from money, working internationally was partly luck. We moved to take jobs in the country when no one else was willing to come. Until now we have always been with our children to guide and work with them academically or socially.

When you make a choice different from everyone else in the room, the rest of the room will express the wrong choice is being made.

Experience is: a strong work ethic, adult guidance/counseling, knowing where to find resources, and motivation will determine success.

My opinion is: a strong work ethic, adult guidance/counseling, knowing where to find resources, and motivation will determine success.
Not sure where you live and work abroad, but is there one of the American International Schools or other International Schools in your city? I would suggest having your company pay for them to go there for high school so they still get to be with you during those important years of their lives. The AIS schools are excellent prep schools for college/university.

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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by VictoriaF »

JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:52 pm
https://samharris.org/podcasts/211-the- ... an-nature/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... ture-wins/

I'm not an expert on the subject. Just heard the podcast. Googling finds that he has its critics. I have no idea if the criticism is based on sound science or just attacking the message because the implications are uncomfortable to them.
I have not listened to Sam Harris's podcast #211 yet. The Scientific American article discusses the 50% genetic impact on one's psychology. This information has been available for a long time. I first encountered it in Sonja Lyubomirsky's book "The How of Happiness."

But while the genes influence one's psychology they don't determine academic success. The peer environment is highly important. When most students in the class are not interested in the academics, it's difficult for a teenager to be a contrarian. And it's difficult for the teacher to offer challenging assignments.

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Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by Isabelle77 »

mrspock wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 am
Isabelle77 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:47 pm
mrspock wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:33 pm Having been schooled in Canada and then working in a top tier US company, here are my observations:

1. Canada - University is far more of a meritocracy. They look at a broad x-section of courses form high school, tally up the averages and then you are in or out of your chosen school (if direct entry is allowed) based on the marks. There is no SAT or essays to write (both of which are heavily coached in the US). Secondly the cost is much lower, so you will compete against people from all social and economic backgrounds. Raw brains, work ethic wins... money won’t help you.

2. USA - It struck me as odd that many of my colleagues in the US came from ... shall we say “well to do” families — from very good schools. This raised an eyebrow when I moved here (are all the rich kids smart in America?). Best I can tell, there’s a bunch of ways in the US wealthy families can stack the deck in favor of their offspring: SATs — coached like crazy, high tuition pricing out the competition, public school tax regimes (richer areas have more funding for their schools) and “legacy” programs.

So, if your kid isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer, send them to America, their system can give your kid an edge. If they are legit smart and you have the cash it’s up to you, if they can get into a school with name recognition, it might be worth going in the US.
There is grade inflation in Canada among the top private schools, our guidance counselor used to tell us "well, your OACs will be higher because we're accounting for the deficit in the public school education". I don't know anyone who didn't get into their first choice school in the 90s. And once they're out of University, wealthy Canadian kids are every bit as privileged as Americans when it comes to job offers and future prospects. I agree with you that applying to Canadian schools is more equitable, but the idea that just brains and work ethic are all that matters, is sadly not the case. The privileged are privileged everywhere.
Just to add some numbers to this, Canada's system is far more equitable my almost any measure. There are approximately 2k [2] private schools in Canada. vs. 34k [3] in the USA -- nearly 1.8x more per capita. 5.6% of students enrolled in private schools vs. 10% in the USA. That's a very big difference.

They are not every bit as privileged, not even close. Furthermore, there are nearly no private post secondary institutions in Canada (all but one, religious in nature [1]) -- and all of the best schools are public and without legacy programs (this would be scandalous in Canadian society). Again, big difference. Finally, how exactly does grade inflation work when most provinces have standardized provincial curriculum, combined with standardized provincial exams for University Entrance? That answer? It's far more muted, and far more difficult to tutor (buy) yourself into a good grade (it's 5-7 exams in high school worth between 30-50% [4] of the final grade vs. 1 SAT).

I could go on... but you get the idea. Privilege may exist everywhere, but some places make it a great deal more difficult to get an edge. The US system, by my eye almost entrenches or does it by design -- which I get -- those who have all the chips in this game of life want to keep them.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to the Vulcan Science Academy, I need to pick up my kid. :P

[1] http://higheredstrategy.com/why-dont-we ... in-canada/
[2] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... e-schools/
[3] https://www.capenet.org/facts.html
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... aminations
Couple things here:
I'll retract my "every bit" I think you're right, Canada at least tries harder, or at least tries in better ways than the US, to be more equitable.

One of the reasons that more kids per cap in the US go to private schools is because Catholic schools in Canada are public in most provinces. 38% of private school students in the US go to Catholic schools.

And while out west the private schools may have to take provincial exams, in Ontario, where I grew up, they don't. They also don't have to follow the provincial curriculum. In the US, the west does a better job (in my opinion) at combating these things, it seems that public schools and state colleges are more commonplace among all income brackets, maybe it's the same?

Totally agree with you on the private college point. I think Canada does it right. I'll likely be sending my kids back for University. The US system is totally messed up and while I believe good people really have tried to fix it, it's such a huge and unwieldy mess that's it's virtually impossible without closing all of the private colleges.

My father used to say that Canada can't really be equal until it has an inheritance or gift tax. I'm not personally in favor of inheritance taxes but there's a point there.

Anyway, I imagine we've taken up enough of the OP's thread (sorry OP) but it's an interesting discussion that I'm not sure has a really good blanket answer, thanks.

OP, and anyone else interested, there is a really fascinating and sometimes horrifying book called Old Boys by James Fitzgerald about Upper Canada College, which for many years was considered the premier boys' school in Canada.
oldfort
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

cs412a wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:30 am
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:29 pm
cs412a wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm
JBTX wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:48 am
• In your opinion, what determines university/college and career success?
More and more evidence is showing the ultimate outcome of an individual is primarily affected by genetic factors.
It's not quite that simple: https://bpac.org.nz/BPJ/2008/September/ ... es_4-5.pdf

An article (whose key contributor is Richie Poulton, the Director of the Dunedin Project) describes some of the findings of that research and notes that:

"To understand why people turn out the way they do (in terms of physical disease or behavioural outcomes), information about their genetic makeup needs to be carefully considered alongside information about what has happened to them in their lives."

"In all the studies . . . the genes by themselves told us nothing. It was only when we looked at the genes working in association with environmental influences that we were able to predict outcomes."

Another article on social genomics in general (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03171-6) states:

"Caveats abound. The genetic contribution to any behavioural trait is relatively small and easily swamped by the influence of the environment. The studies can reveal only whether someone is likely to have a certain trait, and cannot predict the qualities of any one individual. Most scientists are quick to point out why they do this work — to establish what role, if any, genetics has in behaviour — and to lay out its limitations [underscoring supplied]."
This is over-stating the case in the other direction. Identical twins raised apart have significant similarities in numerous ways.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... cs/560189/
Actually, the article you mention does not support the claim that outcomes are determined by genetic factors - it presents evidence that even for identical twins, it is the gene-environment relationship that is important. In fact, the title of the article is "Identical Twins Hint at How Environments Change Gene Expression". From the article:

"Manel Esteller, the director of the Cancer Epigenetics and Biology Program at the Bellvitge Biomedical Research Institute in Barcelona led one of the earliest efforts to identify differences in gene-expression “portraits” of monozygotic twins. “We saw that different lifestyles were able to create divergent epigenomes,” Esteller says. And the changes grew more contrasting in the twins as they aged."
Epigenetic factors are genetic factors. It reflects differences in what genes are activated or not. Saying identical twins have different epigenomes does not, by a country mile, come remotely close to supporting your original claim: "the genetic contribution to any behavioral trait is relatively small and easily swamped by the influence of the environment." To go back to the OP's question, do you think a private boarding school will change his kid's epigenomes and if so in what way?
Last edited by oldfort on Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oldfort
Posts: 1747
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: Wow! Dare Not to Follow the Crowd

Post by oldfort »

mrspock wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 am
Isabelle77 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:47 pm
mrspock wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:33 pm Having been schooled in Canada and then working in a top tier US company, here are my observations:

1. Canada - University is far more of a meritocracy. They look at a broad x-section of courses form high school, tally up the averages and then you are in or out of your chosen school (if direct entry is allowed) based on the marks. There is no SAT or essays to write (both of which are heavily coached in the US). Secondly the cost is much lower, so you will compete against people from all social and economic backgrounds. Raw brains, work ethic wins... money won’t help you.

2. USA - It struck me as odd that many of my colleagues in the US came from ... shall we say “well to do” families — from very good schools. This raised an eyebrow when I moved here (are all the rich kids smart in America?). Best I can tell, there’s a bunch of ways in the US wealthy families can stack the deck in favor of their offspring: SATs — coached like crazy, high tuition pricing out the competition, public school tax regimes (richer areas have more funding for their schools) and “legacy” programs.

So, if your kid isn’t the smartest knife in the drawer, send them to America, their system can give your kid an edge. If they are legit smart and you have the cash it’s up to you, if they can get into a school with name recognition, it might be worth going in the US.
There is grade inflation in Canada among the top private schools, our guidance counselor used to tell us "well, your OACs will be higher because we're accounting for the deficit in the public school education". I don't know anyone who didn't get into their first choice school in the 90s. And once they're out of University, wealthy Canadian kids are every bit as privileged as Americans when it comes to job offers and future prospects. I agree with you that applying to Canadian schools is more equitable, but the idea that just brains and work ethic are all that matters, is sadly not the case. The privileged are privileged everywhere.
Just to add some numbers to this, Canada's system is far more equitable my almost any measure. There are approximately 2k [2] private schools in Canada. vs. 34k [3] in the USA -- nearly 1.8x more per capita. 5.6% of students enrolled in private schools vs. 10% in the USA. That's a very big difference.
I don't agree that the percentage of students in private schools tells you much of anything about how equitable the educational system is. The elite prep schools are a small percentage of private schools in the US. Most private K-12 schools in the US are religious. Parents mostly send their kids to private schools because they don't agree with the values taught in the public schools. They want a school environment that reflects their religious views on God and sexuality. Most private schools operate with less per student funding than public schools.
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