Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

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skeptical
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Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:39 pm

Hi,

I currently have all my insurance through PURE, including car, umbrella, house, etc. Switched to them a number of years ago from Liberty Mutual because they had both better coverage and were cheaper. They are also supposedly a "premier" insurance company, whatever that means.

They have been steadily increasing my premiums, and with the addition of driving age kids, my premiums have reached nearly $10K per year, more than half due to car insurance.

I have been pricing out other options, for example Plymouth Rock, which is almost $3K cheaper for the "same coverage", all due to cheaper car insurance. Others are also cheaper, due to the car insurance. Turns out that PURE is very expensive for young driver insurance, which I needed only a year after signing on with them, hence the huge increase.

Anyone have any experience with Plymouth Rock or other carriers ? My only interest is in how good the umbrella policy is (will they actually come to my defense and how vigorously), and how they handle catastrophic house issues (full replacement value).

Thanks,
Skeptical

oldfort
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:49 pm

What do you pay now for auto? For umbrella?

ChicagoBear7
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by ChicagoBear7 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm

PURE is for high net worth individuals. PURE customers typically will price compare quotes with Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client, not retail insurers. The reason being, these HNW policies have bells and whistles that are not included in standard policies. For automobiles, the HNW policies are typically Agreed Value, automatically include OEM parts, no betterment deductions, rental cars of a similar kind as the car being repaired, and automatically include towing, roadside assistance etc. Whether these things matter to you is an individual question, but most people who pay for a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche etc. don't want knock off third-world parts and don't want to drive a Yugo while the car is in the shop.

The differences between HNW homeowners policies and retail insurers is even more pronounced - open peril versus named peril for both building and contents, full ordinance and law coverage for the damaged and undamaged portions of the house, true guaranteed replacement cost, a cash settlement option, incidental businesses included, unusual home ownership options included (trust, LLC, LLP) etc.... I know nothing about Plymouth Rock other than what I determined from its website. It is a regional insurer with operations in six states and does not seem to be advertising its product as a competitor to the HNW companies. Some of these items might be covered by endorsement, but are likely not included in your quote unless you specifically ask.

Umbrella policies have been subject of many threads recently. Know that Umbrella policies ARE NOT STANDARDIZED among companies. All will provide excess coverage for straight up automobile and homeowner claims. However, the HNW policies include many additional primary coverage's that are not typically included in retail-style policies. Most importantly, the inclusion of uninsured/under insured coverage in the umbrella policy will impact the price. Not every insurer will write this coverage.

If you think PURE is too expensive, note that there is competition among the HNW companies. A couple years ago I jumped from Chubb to Nationwide Private Client. I can definitely say those two policies were almost exactly the same with the same bells and whistles - and I saved a couple thousand dollars on the whole package of auto, home and umbrella. I would ask for quotes from Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client - those would be a comparison of similar insurers. If you decide you don't need/want a HNW policy, compare the Plymouth Rock quote to a host of other standard retail quotes.
Last edited by ChicagoBear7 on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Topic Author
skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:39 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:49 pm
What do you pay now for auto? For umbrella?
Umbrella is only $1,000 for $5M
Car is $5,500 (two adults, two kids, three cars)
You need the auto to have the umbrella.
ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm
PURE is for high net worth individuals. PURE customers typically will price compare quotes with Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client, not retail insurers. The reason being, these HNW policies have bells and whistles that are not included in standard policies.

The differences between HNW homeowners policies and retail insurers is even more pronounced - open peril versus named peril for both building and contents, full ordinance and law coverage for the damaged and undamaged portions of the house, true guaranteed replacement cost, a cash settlement option etc.... I know nothing about Plymouth Rock other than what I determined from its website. It is a regional insurer with operations in six states and does not seem to be advertising its product as a competitor to the HNW companies.

If you think PURE is too expensive, note that there is competition among the HNW companies.
I looked into Chubb, similar price.

I have a net worth that needs protection, but live a pretty simply life, and I do not car about bells and whistles, and can handle small losses. In the past 20 years, the only thing I have used the insurance companies for is auto glass. What I do care about is a solid umbrella policy and being able to fully replace my house in case of a catastrophe. Kind of like getting catastrophic health insurance. So, if a $5M umbrella policy at Plymouth is as good as one at PURE, I would like to switch, but I find it difficult to compare.

Thanks !

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skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 pm

ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm

If you think PURE is too expensive, note that there is competition among the HNW companies. A couple years ago I jumped from Chubb to Nationwide Private Client. I can definitely say those two policies were almost exactly the same with the same bells and whistles - and I saved a couple thousand dollars on the whole package of auto, home and umbrella. I would ask for quotes from Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client - those would be a comparison of similar insurers. If you decide you don't need/want a HNW policy, compare the Plymouth Rock quote to a host of other standard retail quotes.
Hi ChicagoBear,

Can you tell me why you switched to Nationwide from Chubb ? Was it just cost ?
Sounds like you do not think it is fair to compare Plymouth to PURE. I know PURE has more bells and whistles. If the bells and whistles do not include better umbrella coverage, then I don;t care about the small stuff. I just want to know I am getting the best umbrella coverage out there.

For example, looking at Nationwide, they provide the ability to allow your lawyer to consult and work with their lawyers. I would consider that a major benefit that I did not even think about, and I know need to see if PURE has this. This makes me think that not all umbrella policies are the same.

NYCaviator
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by NYCaviator » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:49 pm

skeptical wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 pm
ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm

If you think PURE is too expensive, note that there is competition among the HNW companies. A couple years ago I jumped from Chubb to Nationwide Private Client. I can definitely say those two policies were almost exactly the same with the same bells and whistles - and I saved a couple thousand dollars on the whole package of auto, home and umbrella. I would ask for quotes from Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client - those would be a comparison of similar insurers. If you decide you don't need/want a HNW policy, compare the Plymouth Rock quote to a host of other standard retail quotes.
Hi ChicagoBear,

Can you tell me why you switched to Nationwide from Chubb ? Was it just cost ?
Sounds like you do not think it is fair to compare Plymouth to PURE. I know PURE has more bells and whistles. If the bells and whistles do not include better umbrella coverage, then I don;t care about the small stuff. I just want to know I am getting the best umbrella coverage out there.

For example, looking at Nationwide, they provide the ability to allow your lawyer to consult and work with their lawyers. I would consider that a major benefit that I did not even think about, and I know need to see if PURE has this. This makes me think that not all umbrella policies are the same.
Whats the concern with umbrella coverage? Umbrella coverage provides additional liability insurance, and in some instances un/underinsured motorist insurance. It has nothing to do with replacing your house or anything like that.

Unless you have a high value home (not just “price” but actual rebuild cost) with custom fixtures and expensive build quality, you probably don’t need Chubb/Pure/AIG. You’d be paying for coverage you don’t need. Any mass market HO-5 policy would work.

As far as coverage to have your lawyer consult with their lawyer, you don’t need that. You can have your personal lawyer consult with an insurance company provided lawyer regardless. Nothing prevents that. If you get $5m or so in umbrella coverage, the insurance companies will hire a good lawyer for you. They aren’t going to risk that kind of money.

ChicagoBear7
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by ChicagoBear7 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:40 pm

skeptical wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 pm
ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm

If you think PURE is too expensive, note that there is competition among the HNW companies. A couple years ago I jumped from Chubb to Nationwide Private Client. I can definitely say those two policies were almost exactly the same with the same bells and whistles - and I saved a couple thousand dollars on the whole package of auto, home and umbrella. I would ask for quotes from Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client - those would be a comparison of similar insurers. If you decide you don't need/want a HNW policy, compare the Plymouth Rock quote to a host of other standard retail quotes.
Hi ChicagoBear,

Can you tell me why you switched to Nationwide from Chubb ? Was it just cost ?
Sounds like you do not think it is fair to compare Plymouth to PURE. I know PURE has more bells and whistles. If the bells and whistles do not include better umbrella coverage, then I don;t care about the small stuff. I just want to know I am getting the best umbrella coverage out there.

For example, looking at Nationwide, they provide the ability to allow your lawyer to consult and work with their lawyers. I would consider that a major benefit that I did not even think about, and I know need to see if PURE has this. This makes me think that not all umbrella policies are the same.

I was very happy with Chubb. They were wonderful with how they handled a garage fire claim. They replaced things I didn't even ask them to replace. After the claim the premiums rose, but not by an excessive amount. After several years my package was getting close to $10k, like yours. I asked my independent agent if they had other companies that might suit my needs. I said I wouldn't leave a company like Chubb for chump change. They immediately suggested Nationwide. They said at that time (about 2.5 years ago) they were aggressively pricing in the Chicago suburbs. The price for an almost identical policies was about $2.5k less than Chubb. I really liked Chubb, but I like $2.5k per year more.

You point out the additional private counsel reimbursement. My agent stated how nice a benefit that would ever be, if needed. To keep an eye out for your interests in negotiation, trial and/or settlement.

I don't know if Nationwide is still aggressively pricing new business, or if they are in your area. It can't hurt to check!

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Harry Livermore
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Harry Livermore » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:21 am

Topical discussion for me. I am also with PURE (and have been for about 6 years) and have seen rates creep up quite a bit; auto and umbrella I would have expected as I have two young adult drivers, but homeowner's and the insurance on our 2 rental properties have increased quite a bit as well.
My wife traded in her 2012 Honda Odyssey for a 2015 CR-V, and the coverage was a whopping $700 more for a less expensive, only slightly newer car; exact same coverage and limits. Hmmm.
I just checked, and "all in" we are over $13K per year (3 properties, 3 cars, $5MM umbrella, some antiques/jewelry) That's a big nut. We drive very ordinary cars and our home is a 1959 Garrison Colonial that has not been updated in a very long while. The two rental properties do have higher end finishes though.
I'm curious too about any reimbursement for the "surplus contributions" that is charged on top of the premiums? PURE pitches this as a kind of personal account for each "member" but I think it's really just even-higher premiums in disguise.
This is not to knock PURE, it's an excellent company with robust coverage... and I'm that guy who reads every page of declarations and compares. But I look at a large personal expense like that with a very wary eye.
Cheers

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skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:50 am

NYCaviator wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:49 pm

Whats the concern with umbrella coverage? Umbrella coverage provides additional liability insurance, and in some instances un/underinsured motorist insurance. It has nothing to do with replacing your house or anything like that.

Unless you have a high value home (not just “price” but actual rebuild cost) with custom fixtures and expensive build quality, you probably don’t need Chubb/Pure/AIG. You’d be paying for coverage you don’t need. Any mass market HO-5 policy would work.

As far as coverage to have your lawyer consult with their lawyer, you don’t need that. You can have your personal lawyer consult with an insurance company provided lawyer regardless. Nothing prevents that. If you get $5m or so in umbrella coverage, the insurance companies will hire a good lawyer for you. They aren’t going to risk that kind of money.
Concern with umbrella is that not all lawyers are the same, and nor all companies are the same. I do want quality, and I do want a company that has a reputation to uphold. Maybe all of them allow your lawyer to consult, maybe some of them look at that as a nuisance or maybe their lawyers are just too busy. Maybe Plymouth will do as good a job as PURE when I need them to, maybe not. That is what I am trying to make a guess at. Sometimes more expensive is better, sometimes it is just more expensive.

House is different than umbrella, but I do have a house (modest in size for my area) that the previous owner had custom designed for the property and that he personally built (he was a house builder by trade). I have the original architect plans and specifications - rebuilding it would be a lot more expensive than what it would typically cost for a house this size in my area, even more so because I got the benefit of the previous owner being the general contractor for his own dream house.

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skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:56 am

ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:40 pm

I don't know if Nationwide is still aggressively pricing new business, or if they are in your area. It can't hurt to check!
Thanks, I will check. What I am finding out is that agents who represent places like Plymouth do not handle PURE, Chubb, etc, and the reverse is also true. So it is difficult to talk with someone who has experience with both.
Harry Livermore wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:21 am
I'm curious too about any reimbursement for the "surplus contributions" that is charged on top of the premiums? PURE pitches this as a kind of personal account for each "member" but I think it's really just even-higher premiums in disguise.
This is not to knock PURE, it's an excellent company with robust coverage... and I'm that guy who reads every page of declarations and compares. But I look at a large personal expense like that with a very wary eye.
Their "surplus contributions" also annoy me, but they are relatively small. I do not expect to get anything back from that in the "future"
They seem like a good company, and their non-auto prices are very competitive for me, but you cannot, in practice, really split auto and umbrella.

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Harry Livermore
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Harry Livermore » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:09 am

skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:56 am

but you cannot, in practice, really split auto and umbrella.
... or a homeowner's and umbrella. That's what led me to PURE. Our previous insurer, Encompass, declined to write a policy for our vacation rental, explaining that a seasonal vacation home was "too risky" (never mind that it's in a gated community with year round professional on-site HOA management) They were happy to cover the "easy" stuff. I told them to take a hike.
There is no way I want various home, auto, and umbrella coverage with different companies who will pass the buck around when it hits the fan.
The "surplus contribution" is not exactly chump change. It's 10%. So in the 5 or 6 years we have been with PURE I have given them something on the order of $6K in payments that ostensibly are NOT premiums. The only upside is they "only" charge it for the first 5 years or so... this was the first year we didn't pay it. However, this was also the year that we saw premiums go up by 7%-18% (depending on the policy)
But I agree with you that I'm unlikely to see any of it if and when we move on.
Anyway, thanks for starting the discussion.
Cheers

oldfort
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:21 am

skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:50 am
NYCaviator wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:49 pm

Whats the concern with umbrella coverage? Umbrella coverage provides additional liability insurance, and in some instances un/underinsured motorist insurance. It has nothing to do with replacing your house or anything like that.

Unless you have a high value home (not just “price” but actual rebuild cost) with custom fixtures and expensive build quality, you probably don’t need Chubb/Pure/AIG. You’d be paying for coverage you don’t need. Any mass market HO-5 policy would work.

As far as coverage to have your lawyer consult with their lawyer, you don’t need that. You can have your personal lawyer consult with an insurance company provided lawyer regardless. Nothing prevents that. If you get $5m or so in umbrella coverage, the insurance companies will hire a good lawyer for you. They aren’t going to risk that kind of money.
Concern with umbrella is that not all lawyers are the same, and nor all companies are the same. I do want quality, and I do want a company that has a reputation to uphold. Maybe all of them allow your lawyer to consult, maybe some of them look at that as a nuisance or maybe their lawyers are just too busy. Maybe Plymouth will do as good a job as PURE when I need them to, maybe not. That is what I am trying to make a guess at. Sometimes more expensive is better, sometimes it is just more expensive.
What do you expect your shadow attorney to do and why do you expect them to be more competent than whomever PURE decides to hire? PURE, unlike most places, allows you some choice in representation.

oldfort
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:28 am

skeptical wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:39 pm
Hi,
My only interest is in how good the umbrella policy is (will they actually come to my defense and how vigorously),

Thanks,
Skeptical
Defend vigorously is the wrong goal. Ultimately, your goal should be to resolve the case within policy limits. Sometimes, that means handing over the policy limits to the plaintiffs and being done with it. Many umbrella policies won't cover aircraft. If anyone in your family pilots aircraft or charters a jet, it might worth checking into whether this would be covered.

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skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:40 am

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:21 am
What do you expect your shadow attorney to do and why do you expect them to be more competent than whomever PURE decides to hire? PURE, unlike most places, allows you some choice in representation.
For something of such significance for me and my family, I would like to have someone involved that is obligated to me, even if it is as an observer, or at least the option of doing so.
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:28 am
Defend vigorously is the wrong goal. Ultimately, your goal should be to resolve the case within policy limits. Sometimes, that means handing over the policy limits to the plaintiffs and being done with it. Many umbrella policies won't cover aircraft. If anyone in your family pilots aircraft or charters a jet, it might worth checking into whether this would be covered.
Yes, that is correct, in most cases, simply having the insurance company pay for it to make it go away is a good outcome.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Starfox » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:46 am

skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:40 am
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:21 am
What do you expect your shadow attorney to do and why do you expect them to be more competent than whomever PURE decides to hire? PURE, unlike most places, allows you some choice in representation.
For something of such significance for me and my family, I would like to have someone involved that is obligated to me, even if it is as an observer, or at least the option of doing so.
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:28 am
Defend vigorously is the wrong goal. Ultimately, your goal should be to resolve the case within policy limits. Sometimes, that means handing over the policy limits to the plaintiffs and being done with it. Many umbrella policies won't cover aircraft. If anyone in your family pilots aircraft or charters a jet, it might worth checking into whether this would be covered.
Yes, that is correct, in most cases, simply having the insurance company pay for it to make it go away is a good outcome.
Your current insurer, PURE, automatically has $10k available for your private attorney to assist. Both AIG and PURE provide choice of representative options and $10k private attorney reimbursement. You can increase this $10k amount as desired.
PURE, page 9 - https://assets.pureinsurance.com/pdfs/E ... 070124.pdf
AIG, https://www-604.aig.com/content/dam/aig ... ummary.pdf

This link has several PDF for about half dozen HNW providers, you can look at their brochures, summaries, etc..
https://orchidinsurance.com/products/sp ... resources/

talzara
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by talzara » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:20 am

Harry Livermore wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:21 am
I'm curious too about any reimbursement for the "surplus contributions" that is charged on top of the premiums? PURE pitches this as a kind of personal account for each "member" but I think it's really just even-higher premiums in disguise.
skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:56 am
Their "surplus contributions" also annoy me, but they are relatively small. I do not expect to get anything back from that in the "future"
PURE is an insurance exchange. Surplus is the insurance equivalent of shareholder's equity. Surplus contributions are a form of forced investment in the exchange. You can't get your surplus back unless the exchange decides that it has too much surplus.

It's like if Allstate forced you to buy $100 of Allstate stock when you paid $1,000 in premium, but you couldn't sell the stock without Allstate's permission. Of course, Allstate doesn't do that because it's a public company.

afan
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:45 am

Does not apply to me but I can see the value of having your own lawyer for some situations. The lawyers defending you from the insurance company will be focused on the single case and will not know or care about the rest of your business and personal life. Some high net worth people got there by building businesses that they run. For them, the suit handled by their umbrella insurer may be only one part of a larger puzzle. I can see wanting the lawyer who handles the rest of your businesses to be involved in your liability case.

This seems more valuable than just going out and hiring another lawyer, with whom you have no background, to perhaps get in the way of those hired by the insurance company.

Since PURE has these contributions, do they list them when they quote premiums? Or do clients get sticker shock when they learn that the premium they were quoted is not the total cost?

Do you ever get it back? If you drop the policies?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Starfox » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:49 am

afan wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:45 am

Since PURE has these contributions, do they list them when they quote premiums? Or do clients get sticker shock when they learn that the premium they were quoted is not the total cost?

Do you ever get it back? If you drop the policies?
PURE has you sign this document: https://assets.pureinsurance.com/pdfs/ ... eement.pdf

Surplus Contributions: Each Subscriber makes surplus contributions during the first five (5) full years of continuous PURE membership and those contributions reduce the cost of PURE’s capital. Surplus contributions are set at 10% of total annual Homeowners and Watercraft premiums, and 4% of total annual premiums for all other policies. Surplus contributions are billed and collected with your premium. Subscribers should not expect a return of surplus contributions other than on a pro-rata basis for policies cancelled mid-term. Any return of surplus contributions is subject to the approval of PRM and the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation (OIR).

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Harry Livermore
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Harry Livermore » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:21 pm

... which is why I think of it as a surcharge, or extra premium. I'm thrilled to no longer pay it, but over the last 6 years the premiums have gone up so much it's more expensive now anyway.
Honestly, it's great insurance and everything is "under one roof", both important to me. I'm probably overpaying a little, but I'm reluctant to change until the kids are on their own and we reduce our exposure via rental properties.
Not sure it's relevant, but PE firms, including Stone Point and KKR, were major stakeholders in PURE. PE firms are not well-known for their kindness of heart and care for the customers of the companies they "invest" in... and earlier this year, all outstanding ownership in PURE Group was purchased by a Japanese company, Tokio Holdings. That supposedly has no effect on the exchange.
Anyway, I don't really think much about any of this except when I get a bill, or when my wife and I look at our budget.
Cheers

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by NYCaviator » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:17 pm

skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:50 am
NYCaviator wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:49 pm

Whats the concern with umbrella coverage? Umbrella coverage provides additional liability insurance, and in some instances un/underinsured motorist insurance. It has nothing to do with replacing your house or anything like that.

Unless you have a high value home (not just “price” but actual rebuild cost) with custom fixtures and expensive build quality, you probably don’t need Chubb/Pure/AIG. You’d be paying for coverage you don’t need. Any mass market HO-5 policy would work.

As far as coverage to have your lawyer consult with their lawyer, you don’t need that. You can have your personal lawyer consult with an insurance company provided lawyer regardless. Nothing prevents that. If you get $5m or so in umbrella coverage, the insurance companies will hire a good lawyer for you. They aren’t going to risk that kind of money.
Concern with umbrella is that not all lawyers are the same, and nor all companies are the same. I do want quality, and I do want a company that has a reputation to uphold. Maybe all of them allow your lawyer to consult, maybe some of them look at that as a nuisance or maybe their lawyers are just too busy. Maybe Plymouth will do as good a job as PURE when I need them to, maybe not. That is what I am trying to make a guess at. Sometimes more expensive is better, sometimes it is just more expensive.

House is different than umbrella, but I do have a house (modest in size for my area) that the previous owner had custom designed for the property and that he personally built (he was a house builder by trade). I have the original architect plans and specifications - rebuilding it would be a lot more expensive than what it would typically cost for a house this size in my area, even more so because I got the benefit of the previous owner being the general contractor for his own dream house.
The insurance company lawyer is obligated to defend you and act in your best interest. They are merely being paid by your insurer. Most insurance companies use the same pool of defense law firms anyway. So if you have Chubb or Allstate, you will likely get the same lawyer. There are only so many insurance defense firms in any given area.

Likewise, there is nothing stopping you from having your personal lawyer involved as shadow counsel regardless of what company you have. HNW carriers may have “shadow counsel” coverage, but if they are only paying your personal lawyer $10k, it isn’t going to go very far.

There have been so many recent threads on umbrella policies, with people claiming to have significant assets complaining about the cost or trying to get random strangers to convince them to get different coverage.

Long story short, if you are truly in Chubb/AIG/PURE target market (and you would know if you are), you should not be considering mass market policies. This has nothing to do with umbrella coverage (unless you need more than $10m, which mass market carriers don’t offer), but has everything to do with how these companies handle complex claims. They specialize in insuring high end homes and vehicles. If you have a custom $5m house with imported Italian marble, a significant art collection, etc., mass market carriers probably wouldn’t insure it, and even if they did, I wouldn’t want them handling the claim. That’s why you get HNW insurance, not for some “shadow counsel” coverage.
.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by mgensler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Sounds like you are on the edge of needing a PURE or Chubb type of insurer. If the other insurance company has a rating equivalent to PURE and you don't anticipate going above $5mm on the umbrella then maybe it makes sense to switch. We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm. Two things that you can do to contain costs is increase your deductible and lower the coverage on contents / auxiliary buildings. We have a $10k deductible on the real estate and $5k on the cars.

We had one claim with PURE and they paid right away even though the policy said it was excluded. They also lowered the cost of the umbrella pretty dramatically a couple of years ago. Replacement value on the real estate goes up by about 10% each year as does the premium.

oldfort
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:50 pm

mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm.
This doesn't make sense. AIG writes umbrellas up to $100 million.

https://www-200.aigprivateclient.com/in ... e-coverage

mgensler
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by mgensler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:52 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:50 pm
mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm.
This doesn't make sense. AIG writes umbrellas up to $100 million.

https://www-200.aigprivateclient.com/in ... e-coverage
Not sure. 5 years ago they declined to go above $5mm.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:57 pm

mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:52 pm
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:50 pm
mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm.
This doesn't make sense. AIG writes umbrellas up to $100 million.

https://www-200.aigprivateclient.com/in ... e-coverage
Not sure. 5 years ago they declined to go above $5mm.
AIG has been writing policies above $5mm for decades. Either you had an incompetent insurance agent or something about your situation made you high risk and uninsurable past a certain level. Bill Cosby had a $35 million policy with AIG.

https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us ... 29394.aspx

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:40 pm

Interesting. I have long carried a higher homeowners deductible but a lower auto. My auto carrier does not go as high as $5,000, which seems a waste. I really need the auto for the liability or maybe a totaled car. I wold be fine with $10,000, if I could get it.

I know a number of people who have Chubb. They are higher end consumers but hardly $5M homes, even in a very high COL area.

I don't think there are enough $5M, imported mable in one of several houses customers to support the multiple companies competing in this space.

As of 2016, one needed about $43M to be there n the top 0.1% of net worth. That is a group that could afford several expensive houses and fancy cars, yachts and so forth. But there are only 125,000 such households. That's not a lot to share among 5-8 firms.
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile- ... ed-states/
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:44 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:50 pm
mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm.
This doesn't make sense. AIG writes umbrellas up to $100 million.

https://www-200.aigprivateclient.com/in ... e-coverage
Maybe it was AIG but not Private Client?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by mgensler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:54 pm

afan wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:44 pm
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:50 pm
mgensler wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:48 pm
We switched to PURE from AIG about 5 years ago. AIG wouldn't write an umbrella for more than $5mm.
This doesn't make sense. AIG writes umbrellas up to $100 million.

https://www-200.aigprivateclient.com/in ... e-coverage
Maybe it was AIG but not Private Client?
Maybe that was it. Didn't know they had Private Client and they never mentioned it.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by mgensler » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:00 pm

afan wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:40 pm
Interesting. I have long carried a higher homeowners deductible but a lower auto. My auto carrier does not go as high as $5,000, which seems a waste. I really need the auto for the liability or maybe a totaled car. I wold be fine with $10,000, if I could get it.

I know a number of people who have Chubb. They are higher end consumers but hardly $5M homes, even in a very high COL area.

I don't think there are enough $5M, imported mable in one of several houses customers to support the multiple companies competing in this space.

As of 2016, one needed about $43M to be there n the top 0.1% of net worth. That is a group that could afford several expensive houses and fancy cars, yachts and so forth. But there are only 125,000 such households. That's not a lot to share among 5-8 firms.
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile- ... ed-states/
PURE will do a $10k deductible on an auto.

There has been some consolidation in this niche. Firemen's fund is gone. Pure and Chubb are the only two exclusively focused on this niche as far as I know. Travelers will write these policies but they also have a large commercial line business.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:31 pm

On another thread, this was posted by an attorney:
The misinformation on this thread is legion. I have done plaintiff, defence, and in house work for insurance cos. The amount of insurance limits you buy almost certainly has no bearing with what kind of lawyer you are "buying" to defend a case.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by NYCaviator » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:00 pm

afan wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:40 pm
Interesting. I have long carried a higher homeowners deductible but a lower auto. My auto carrier does not go as high as $5,000, which seems a waste. I really need the auto for the liability or maybe a totaled car. I wold be fine with $10,000, if I could get it.

I know a number of people who have Chubb. They are higher end consumers but hardly $5M homes, even in a very high COL area.

I don't think there are enough $5M, imported mable in one of several houses customers to support the multiple companies competing in this space.

As of 2016, one needed about $43M to be there n the top 0.1% of net worth. That is a group that could afford several expensive houses and fancy cars, yachts and so forth. But there are only 125,000 such households. That's not a lot to share among 5-8 firms.
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile- ... ed-states/
Agreed, but a lot of folks who don’t need a HNW policy are talked into getting one, and then complain about the premiums. There are two types of people who need HNW policies, those who need coverage of $10m+ which mass market carriers don’t offer, or people who need the bells and whistles of these policies that mass market carriers don’t offer (OEM parts for your exotic car, agreed value, high end homes, art, yachts, etc). If you aren’t in one of those two categories, it makes no sense to get one. There is so much misinformation about insurance out there. For example the idea that if you have Chubb you will get a better lawyer to defend you.

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skeptical
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:31 pm
On another thread, this was posted by an attorney:
The misinformation on this thread is legion. I have done plaintiff, defence, and in house work for insurance cos. The amount of insurance limits you buy almost certainly has no bearing with what kind of lawyer you are "buying" to defend a case.
This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for.

oldfort - can you provide the user name of the person who posted this ? I can only find one other mention of this quote, and it is by you on a similar thread about umbrella insurance :-)

I have no need for "fancy" insurance. My primary concern is that I want a quality umbrella to protect my net worth, and do not lead the kind of life that requires the frills for airplanes, boats, etc, etc. By far, my biggest exposure is my kids driving around in the car, second biggest exposure is me and my wife driving around in a car. Distant third is an accident on my property.

If the quality of legal care will be the same whether I get it from PURE or some mass market company, and I can get the amount I want, I will go with mass market.

However, I have had interactions with quite a number of lawyers during my career and personal life, and I have found a huge difference in knowledge, intelligence, diligence, and drive between them. One lawyer is not equivalent to another lawyer.

Topic Author
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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by skeptical » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:18 pm

NYCaviator wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:00 pm
Agreed, but a lot of folks who don’t need a HNW policy are talked into getting one, and then complain about the premiums.
Ironically, I went with PURE over a mass market insurer because it was actually cheaper, even with bumping the umbrella from $1M to $5M (which my old insurer would not do) and bumping the amount of home coverage.

It was only a few years later, when I added two kids to the policy did the premiums go up so much, plus pretty healthy increase in premiums for the house.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:35 pm

skeptical wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 pm
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:31 pm
On another thread, this was posted by an attorney:
The misinformation on this thread is legion. I have done plaintiff, defence, and in house work for insurance cos. The amount of insurance limits you buy almost certainly has no bearing with what kind of lawyer you are "buying" to defend a case.
This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for.

oldfort - can you provide the user name of the person who posted this ? I can only find one other mention of this quote, and it is by you on a similar thread about umbrella insurance :-)

I have no need for "fancy" insurance. My primary concern is that I want a quality umbrella to protect my net worth, and do not lead the kind of life that requires the frills for airplanes, boats, etc, etc. By far, my biggest exposure is my kids driving around in the car, second biggest exposure is me and my wife driving around in a car. Distant third is an accident on my property.

If the quality of legal care will be the same whether I get it from PURE or some mass market company, and I can get the amount I want, I will go with mass market.

However, I have had interactions with quite a number of lawyers during my career and personal life, and I have found a huge difference in knowledge, intelligence, diligence, and drive between them. One lawyer is not equivalent to another lawyer.
The poster is cantos and here's the quote in full:
The misinformation on this thread is legion. I have done plaintiff, defence, and in house work for insurance cos. The amount of insurance limits you buy almost certainly has no bearing with what kind of lawyer you are "buying" to defend a case

All i will say for now is the OP's umbrella insurance amount is about risks vs costs. Umbrella insurance of $5-10 mil for a $7 mil net worth is relatively cheap. Ask around. Find ways to protect the estate (corps etc). Insurance protects some things under some circs, not all. Lawsuits against individials for over $1 mil are rare. Over $5 mil, rarer still. All depends on what the OP is doing in life. Read the policy and understand what you are buying. If you don't understand, hire a good broker or lawyer to translate the policy for you.
IMHO, if your biggest liability is driving a car, umbrella insurance is essentially a commodity. One of the biggest differences might be whether umbrella UM/UIM is offered. 99 times out of 100, the plaintiffs don't really want to go to trial. The plaintiff's attorney, who is usually on contingency, would be more than happy to settle for the policy limits, collect their 30-40% fee, and move on to the next case.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:08 am

A long time friend has spent their career defending civil cases, business, not personal. Friend says that insurance companies use their expertise in risk and expenses to determine how much is at stake for each case. They pick attorneys based on the level of expertise and scale needed to handle the case. They have panels of attorneys (not just firms, but the individual people) whom they use. Simpler cases go to lower level lawyers who charge lower fees but can handle the case. If the insurance company thinks they need more legal firepower, then they pick a lawyer who can deliver it. They also know the specific expertise of particular attorneys. They assign cases based on these considerations. Their knowledge of who can do what is way beyond what any individual could learn by asking around for references. At least on the business side, you would want your insurance company picking your lawyer.

Because the US is awash in lawsuits, there is plenty of work to be done for insurance companies. Even the top lawyers give the insurers substantial discounts from their regular rates in return for the steady work. If you had to pay your lawyer out of your own pocket and were lucky enough to pick someone right for your case, you would be paying a much higher rate.

Frustratingly, although they know business liability inside out, my friend had nothing to say about how much umbrella to buy or from whom. Not a personal finance buff and not the type to accumulate a lot of fancy stuff. Lives in a modest house, drives modest cars. Travels a lot, but flies commercial, so no private airplanes. Definitely did not launch into a lecture about the relative value of mass market vs HNW insurance companies.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:06 am

afan wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:08 am
A long time friend has spent their career defending civil cases, business, not personal. Friend says that insurance companies use their expertise in risk and expenses to determine how much is at stake for each case. They pick attorneys based on the level of expertise and scale needed to handle the case. They have panels of attorneys (not just firms, but the individual people) whom they use. Simpler cases go to lower level lawyers who charge lower fees but can handle the case. If the insurance company thinks they need more legal firepower, then they pick a lawyer who can deliver it. They also know the specific expertise of particular attorneys. They assign cases based on these considerations. Their knowledge of who can do what is way beyond what any individual could learn by asking around for references. At least on the business side, you would want your insurance company picking your lawyer.

Because the US is awash in lawsuits, there is plenty of work to be done for insurance companies. Even the top lawyers give the insurers substantial discounts from their regular rates in return for the steady work. If you had to pay your lawyer out of your own pocket and were lucky enough to pick someone right for your case, you would be paying a much higher rate.

Frustratingly, although they know business liability inside out, my friend had nothing to say about how much umbrella to buy or from whom. Not a personal finance buff and not the type to accumulate a lot of fancy stuff. Lives in a modest house, drives modest cars. Travels a lot, but flies commercial, so no private airplanes. Definitely did not launch into a lecture about the relative value of mass market vs HNW insurance companies.
The business side has to be very different from the personal side. Business lawsuits can have an infinite variety. Personal umbrella claims tend to be overwhelmingly motor vehicle lawsuits(80-90%) with social host liability for intoxicated guests, dog bites, slip and falls, swimming pool accidents, and injured domestic workers accounting for most of the remainder. It's not like Monsanto trying to find some niche lawyer to argue over whether Roundup causes cancer.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:19 pm

AIG Private Client recently announced that it would drop its "upper middle market" customers, having arranged for many to be taken by Heritage or Safeco. AIGPC is still there but focused on the top of the high end market. A way to tell those dropped that they were not the clients AIGPC wanted. I wonder how many will migrate to PURE, Chubb, Cincinnati and the few other companies in this space.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Starfox » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:54 pm

afan wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:19 pm
AIG Private Client recently announced that it would drop its "upper middle market" customers, having arranged for many to be taken by Heritage or Safeco. AIGPC is still there but focused on the top of the high end market. A way to tell those dropped that they were not the clients AIGPC wanted. I wonder how many will migrate to PURE, Chubb, Cincinnati and the few other companies in this space.
Thanks for the info! I was not aware of the drop/sale of customers. I searched and found this detail as I was wondering what they defined as "upper middle".
I do see on Safeco, they offer "up to $10 million umbrella". https://www.safeco.com/products/umbrell ... e/coverage

"If within its range of authorized rates, during the first year of the agreement, Safeco will also attempt to price-match affected policies that are offered replacement coverage," the filing said. AIG's upper-middle-market business would seemingly mesh well with the Safeco Premier product that the company has been rolling out over the past two years.

Marketing materials indicate that the target client base for Safeco Premier includes a broad range of customers, from someone with a $3 million home to someone with a $500,000 home and other financial assets. Materials for AIG's Private Client Group program with a copyright date of 2015 report that the average policyholder had a home with a replacement cost of $2.6 million, though they noted that AIG would "consider homes $500,000 & above."
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... m-59257633 - Article

http://www.independentagent.com/SiteAss ... AIGPCG.pdf - AIG referenced doc outlining their preferred client detail.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:52 pm

Average policyholder has 3.5 policies, a home with a replacement cost of $2.6 million,
four vehicles and pays $18,000 in annual premium.
$18,000 for several cars and a $2.6M replacement cost house??? That is a lot.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:14 am

NYCaviator wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:00 pm
Agreed, but a lot of folks who don’t need a HNW policy are talked into getting one, and then complain about the premiums. There are two types of people who need HNW policies, those who need coverage of $10m+ which mass market carriers don’t offer, or people who need the bells and whistles of these policies that mass market carriers don’t offer (OEM parts for your exotic car, agreed value, high end homes, art, yachts, etc). If you aren’t in one of those two categories, it makes no sense to get one.
I completely and totally disagree. The contractual protections offered by HNW policies are head and shoulders above anything that the mass market carriers are able to offer, and their claims handling is at a level that the mass market carriers could only dream about. Further, what tends to happen is that for their target market, HNW policies are frequently significantly cheaper than the mass market policies, so you get the best of both worlds.

Further, people aren't actually "talked into getting a [HNW] policy," as HNW carriers generally have a $1MM dwelling value threshold and will not issue a policy to those under this threshold. That's because their data suggests that those types of houses tend to be built to superior standards and that their owners tend to file fewer claims. Since HNW carriers focus exclusively on this specific market, they know it extremely well and are able to price it aggressively. With mass market carriers, the opposite is true, as they don't have sufficient loss data or underwriting or claims support to handle these types of houses, so that the dwelling values are too high for them to insure or, if they're able to insure them, the pricing tends to not be competitive (and the contractual features far more limited).

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:32 am

ChicagoBear7 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:21 pm
PURE is for high net worth individuals. PURE customers typically will price compare quotes with Chubb, Nationwide Private Client and AIG Private Client, not retail insurers. The reason being, these HNW policies have bells and whistles that are not included in standard policies. For automobiles, the HNW policies are typically Agreed Value, automatically include OEM parts, no betterment deductions, rental cars of a similar kind as the car being repaired, and automatically include towing, roadside assistance etc. Whether these things matter to you is an individual question, but most people who pay for a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche etc. don't want knock off third-world parts and don't want to drive a Yugo while the car is in the shop.

The differences between HNW homeowners policies and retail insurers is even more pronounced - open peril versus named peril for both building and contents, full ordinance and law coverage for the damaged and undamaged portions of the house, true guaranteed replacement cost, a cash settlement option, incidental businesses included, unusual home ownership options included (trust, LLC, LLP) etc....
Correct. In addition, HNW carriers do not have any coverage sub-limits for water and sewer backups. This is a very significant distinction, as water and sewer backups are quite common and tend to be quite expensive. Yet, most mass market carriers either exclude these types of claims or limit their coverage to something like $5K or $10K, which tends to be woefully inadequate. Some mass market carriers will still sell endorsements that extend the coverage to $50K or $100K, but with HNW carriers this coverage is already included in the policy and goes all the way up to the dwelling value.

Likewise, most HNW HO policies automatically waive your deductible up to $25K for claims that exceed $50K. A number of them will also provide an additional $2,500 allowance for claims over $10K, which you can use for various protective measure to reduce the likelihood of suffering the same claim in the future. So, for instance, if hail damages your roof, HNW carriers won't just pay for a new roof but will also pay the additional expense associated with buying class 4 hail-resistant shingles.

The cash settlement option is a very significant benefit of the HNW HO policies. With a mass market policy, if your house is damaged beyond repair, you generally have to rebuild (except in a few states, but even in those states there are hoops to jump through). With a HNW carrier, if you don't want to live through the rebuilding process, you can just tell the insurance carrier to write you a check for the full dwelling value, which it is contractually required to do. You can then use the money to build a different and/or smaller house, or buy another house elsewhere, etc...

Likewise, when it comes to your contents coverage, if your personal property is damaged, most mass market carriers are only contractually required to write you a check for the ACV (actual cash value, which is the depreciated value) of your personal property. Then, if and when you replace the property, they'll issue you a supplemental check for the depreciation. What if you don't want to replace the damaged property, however? With a HNW HO policy, you receive a check for the entire replacement value of your personal property, which is yours to keep regardless of whether you replace the damaged property or not.

On the auto side, agreed value policies are also a fairly significant benefit. If your vehicle is totaled, you don't get into a frustrating back and forth negotiation with your carrier. Instead, the value is generously set up front, so that if the vehicle is totaled, the carrier waives the deductible and simply writes you a check for the entire agreed value.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by afan » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am

How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?

A family with the money to have one or more fancy houses, a boat and several expensive cars might need this if they actually own these things. What about a family with the money to pay for them but that lives in a modest house and drives regular cars, no expensive art, jewelry or collectibles. Would they benefit from "HNW" insurance? If their used Camry were totaled, they would go out and buy replacement used Camry with cash. For a non exotic car, there may not be much to agreeing on value- NADA, Kelly or some such would give a reasonable estimate and the differences would be too small to worry about.

Would they benefit from the more generous homeowners coverage on a "normal" house? Would they get better liability protection?

Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:10 am

afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?
I am not quite sure what you're asking, but the OP's situation is quite common for HNW carriers, where their customer has a house with a cost to rebuild that exceeds their $1MM threshold (remember that it's the cost to rebuild the dwelling that matters, so a $1MM+ house in an expensive area where the majority of the value is in the land would not qualify), but does not otherwise have any special or exotic cars, etc... For that reason, for customers like that the auto policy tends to be fairly expensive, while the HO policy tends to be fairly reasonable, with the cost of the umbrella policy being pretty average. The overall package pricing then ends up being competitive, all while offering significantly better contractual coverage (particularly on the house) and claims handling.

What tends to happen, however, is that when you add much higher risk younger drivers, the auto premiums spike up (HNW carriers much prefer safe, experienced drivers), which is the situation the OP has found himself in.
Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
AIG Private Client has always been like this. Their rate structure tends to be more competitive for those paying $10K+ in annual premiums. Other HNW carriers aren't like that.
Last edited by UALflyer on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 am

afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
Probably not at the HNW insurers. In this Chubb presentation, this is how they describe their target market.
Personal Risk Services Client is the successful, family or individual with significant assets:
• Home value > $750,000 [And I assume this is the rebuild cost]
• Multiple homes
• Personal Collections
• High valued automobiles
• High Personal Excess Liability
Limits

https://myagency.networkedins.com/Forms ... tation.pdf

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by UALflyer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:32 am

oldfort wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 am
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
Probably not at the HNW insurers. In this Chubb presentation, this is how they describe their target market.
Personal Risk Services Client is the successful, family or individual with significant assets:
• Home value > $750,000 [And I assume this is the rebuild cost]
• Multiple homes
• Personal Collections
• High valued automobiles
• High Personal Excess Liability
Limits

https://myagency.networkedins.com/Forms ... tation.pdf
It all sounds much fancier than it ends up being in practice. As I mentioned above, a huge number of folks end up with HNW carriers because the rebuild cost of their primary residence ends up exceeding $1MM (that's the general threshold for HNW carriers in most states).

For what it's worth, I am currently with Chubb, do not have any exotic possessions, and my overall premiums are less than 50% of what Amica would've charged for a lot less coverage.

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Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by oldfort » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:05 am

UALflyer wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:32 am
oldfort wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 am
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
Probably not at the HNW insurers. In this Chubb presentation, this is how they describe their target market.
Personal Risk Services Client is the successful, family or individual with significant assets:
• Home value > $750,000 [And I assume this is the rebuild cost]
• Multiple homes
• Personal Collections
• High valued automobiles
• High Personal Excess Liability
Limits

https://myagency.networkedins.com/Forms ... tation.pdf
It all sounds much fancier than it ends up being in practice. As I mentioned above, a huge number of folks end up with HNW carriers because the rebuild cost of their primary residence ends up exceeding $1MM (that's the general threshold for HNW carriers in most states).

For what it's worth, I am currently with Chubb, do not have any exotic possessions, and my overall premiums are less than 50% of what Amica would've charged for a lot less coverage.
So what does your family pay in total: homeowner + auto + umbrella?

MarkerFM
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by MarkerFM » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:10 pm

afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?

A family with the money to have one or more fancy houses, a boat and several expensive cars might need this if they actually own these things. What about a family with the money to pay for them but that lives in a modest house and drives regular cars, no expensive art, jewelry or collectibles. Would they benefit from "HNW" insurance? If their used Camry were totaled, they would go out and buy replacement used Camry with cash. For a non exotic car, there may not be much to agreeing on value- NADA, Kelly or some such would give a reasonable estimate and the differences would be too small to worry about.

Would they benefit from the more generous homeowners coverage on a "normal" house? Would they get better liability protection?

Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
You have a point. We had Chubb for years, with two $1+ million houses (one with wind damage risk), multiple cars, two teenagers, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. When we bought a third $1+ million property, also with wind risk, Chubb declined to write coverage unless our premiums were over $100K. We weren't even close to that, so we switched everything to PURE. Now have two $2.5+ million dwellings, both with wind risk, three cars, no children at home, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. Premiums $25K annually.

Starfox
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Location: Caribbean

Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Starfox » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:34 am

MarkerFM wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:10 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?

A family with the money to have one or more fancy houses, a boat and several expensive cars might need this if they actually own these things. What about a family with the money to pay for them but that lives in a modest house and drives regular cars, no expensive art, jewelry or collectibles. Would they benefit from "HNW" insurance? If their used Camry were totaled, they would go out and buy replacement used Camry with cash. For a non exotic car, there may not be much to agreeing on value- NADA, Kelly or some such would give a reasonable estimate and the differences would be too small to worry about.

Would they benefit from the more generous homeowners coverage on a "normal" house? Would they get better liability protection?

Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
You have a point. We had Chubb for years, with two $1+ million houses (one with wind damage risk), multiple cars, two teenagers, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. When we bought a third $1+ million property, also with wind risk, Chubb declined to write coverage unless our premiums were over $100K. We weren't even close to that, so we switched everything to PURE. Now have two $2.5+ million dwellings, both with wind risk, three cars, no children at home, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. Premiums $25K annually.
Marker - if you don't mind sharing - what are your dollar/percent deductible(s) on the house and cars? Thanks!

MarkerFM
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by MarkerFM » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:13 pm

Starfox wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:34 am
MarkerFM wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:10 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?

A family with the money to have one or more fancy houses, a boat and several expensive cars might need this if they actually own these things. What about a family with the money to pay for them but that lives in a modest house and drives regular cars, no expensive art, jewelry or collectibles. Would they benefit from "HNW" insurance? If their used Camry were totaled, they would go out and buy replacement used Camry with cash. For a non exotic car, there may not be much to agreeing on value- NADA, Kelly or some such would give a reasonable estimate and the differences would be too small to worry about.

Would they benefit from the more generous homeowners coverage on a "normal" house? Would they get better liability protection?

Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
You have a point. We had Chubb for years, with two $1+ million houses (one with wind damage risk), multiple cars, two teenagers, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. When we bought a third $1+ million property, also with wind risk, Chubb declined to write coverage unless our premiums were over $100K. We weren't even close to that, so we switched everything to PURE. Now have two $2.5+ million dwellings, both with wind risk, three cars, no children at home, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. Premiums $25K annually.
Marker - if you don't mind sharing - what are your dollar/percent deductible(s) on the house and cars? Thanks!
Homes are $10K, except 5% for hurricane damage. Cars are $1,000.

Starfox
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:28 pm
Location: Caribbean

Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by Starfox » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm

MarkerFM wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:13 pm
Starfox wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:34 am
MarkerFM wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:10 pm
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
How much of this is "high consumption" rather than "high net worth" insurance?

A family with the money to have one or more fancy houses, a boat and several expensive cars might need this if they actually own these things. What about a family with the money to pay for them but that lives in a modest house and drives regular cars, no expensive art, jewelry or collectibles. Would they benefit from "HNW" insurance? If their used Camry were totaled, they would go out and buy replacement used Camry with cash. For a non exotic car, there may not be much to agreeing on value- NADA, Kelly or some such would give a reasonable estimate and the differences would be too small to worry about.

Would they benefit from the more generous homeowners coverage on a "normal" house? Would they get better liability protection?

Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
You have a point. We had Chubb for years, with two $1+ million houses (one with wind damage risk), multiple cars, two teenagers, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. When we bought a third $1+ million property, also with wind risk, Chubb declined to write coverage unless our premiums were over $100K. We weren't even close to that, so we switched everything to PURE. Now have two $2.5+ million dwellings, both with wind risk, three cars, no children at home, $10 million umbrella, jewelry, art, etc. Premiums $25K annually.
Marker - if you don't mind sharing - what are your dollar/percent deductible(s) on the house and cars? Thanks!
Homes are $10K, except 5% for hurricane damage. Cars are $1,000.
Nice! We have 5% deductibles with AIG too - really helps keep premiums down. We don't expect to use insurance services for the house, ideally just pay the bill once a year.

ChicagoBear7
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Umbrella Insurance: Plymouth Rock vs PURE ?

Post by ChicagoBear7 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:05 pm

oldfort wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:05 am
UALflyer wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:32 am
oldfort wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 am
afan wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:45 am
Would an insurer even want their business if they are not going to pay $18,000/ year in premiums?
Probably not at the HNW insurers. In this Chubb presentation, this is how they describe their target market.
Personal Risk Services Client is the successful, family or individual with significant assets:
• Home value > $750,000 [And I assume this is the rebuild cost]
• Multiple homes
• Personal Collections
• High valued automobiles
• High Personal Excess Liability
Limits

https://myagency.networkedins.com/Forms ... tation.pdf
It all sounds much fancier than it ends up being in practice. As I mentioned above, a huge number of folks end up with HNW carriers because the rebuild cost of their primary residence ends up exceeding $1MM (that's the general threshold for HNW carriers in most states).

For what it's worth, I am currently with Chubb, do not have any exotic possessions, and my overall premiums are less than 50% of what Amica would've charged for a lot less coverage.
So what does your family pay in total: homeowner + auto + umbrella?
UALflyer hasn't responded, but I will add a point of reference.

When I switched from Travelers to Chubb about 10 years ago, my premiums basically stayed flat (I think I saved a little less than $100), but the point of the change was to add all of those coverage extensions that are not even available by endorsement at most standard insurers. (Cash settlement, ordinance & law up to full replacement cost, drain/sewer backup to full replacement cost, truly unlimited replacement cost - no cap etc.) Travelers also would not include UM/UIM on their umbrella.

Current total package premium is @ $7,700 for $1.2MM replacement cost homeowners (including earthquake rider and private flood coverage); 3 automobiles (2 Lexus' and a Ford SUV) for 3 adult drivers (daughter is medical school student and still a dependent member of the household) along with a $5MM umbrella with $1MM UM/UIM coverage. There is competition among many of these companies. Two year ago I moved from Chubb to Nationwide Private Client and saved a couple thousand in premium for the same coverage.

As far as AIG Private Client selling its "upper middle class" book, my broker said they always aimed for the Ultra HNW market. He said @ 40% of the Forbes 400 is insured by AIG - 9 digits and billionaires is who they really want.

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