Which College degrees are worthwhile?

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novemberrain
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by novemberrain »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:59 am
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:45 am This is the best all weather college degree

Rhetoric : https://rhetoric.berkeley.edu
That department focus seems to be totally different than most "rhetoric" programs I am familiar with. My former editor is currently getting her PhD in rhetoric and composition at the University of Utah https://writing.utah.edu/graduate/index.php. With a BA in English and MA in creative writing, her job opportunities were limited so she was a contract editor and adjunct professor, just barely making ends meet. She's absolutely brilliant, so I'm sure she'll figure it out, but when she told me what she was going to pursue a PhD in, I definitely wondered how that was going to improve her ability to support her family (she has a deadbeat husband who is a mid-30's undergrad student and a daughter).
Nice. I would advise her to follow that up with a post-doc; even if it means going a few extra hundred thousand into student debt.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by Doom&Gloom »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
It is interesting just how different people can be. My weightings would be almost exactly opposite of yours except for the work life balance--and I would even weight that more heavily.
Normchad
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by Normchad »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
Sounds like we should have all been proctologist’s.
physiorol
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:52 am

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by physiorol »

IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
X528 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:50 am
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:46 am
fusspot wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:21 am If it's teaching, Intervention Specialist (special education) is the way to go.
Yes, I agree, or OT/PT/SLP in either a medical or educational setting.
What is "OT/PT/SLP"?
Occupational therapist, Physical Therapist, Speech Language Pathologist
I would be cautious here. The schooling takes 7 years and debt can be quite high. Salaries are fairly low in most of the US ~70K and there is not much salary growth with experience unless you go into hospital administration. Physician Assistant or pharmacy might be the better call from a numerical standpoint or nursing followed by nurse practitioner training.
TechFI
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TechFI »

novemberrain wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:11 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:59 am
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:45 am This is the best all weather college degree

Rhetoric : https://rhetoric.berkeley.edu
That department focus seems to be totally different than most "rhetoric" programs I am familiar with. My former editor is currently getting her PhD in rhetoric and composition at the University of Utah https://writing.utah.edu/graduate/index.php. With a BA in English and MA in creative writing, her job opportunities were limited so she was a contract editor and adjunct professor, just barely making ends meet. She's absolutely brilliant, so I'm sure she'll figure it out, but when she told me what she was going to pursue a PhD in, I definitely wondered how that was going to improve her ability to support her family (she has a deadbeat husband who is a mid-30's undergrad student and a daughter).
Nice. I would advise her to follow that up with a post-doc; even if it means going a few extra hundred thousand into student debt.
Education programs that have negative ROI should never be offered, it's such a scam.

I suggest doing a perma post-doc, bumping from one post-doc to another in the hope of winning the professor lottery. Who knows, after 10 years out of school you may finally land that $80k/yr tenure-track professorship in a city that nobody has heard of before! And after 10 years you finally realize that you can't find that unicorn tenure-track position, there's always a choice to be adjunct and teach 10 classes across 3 colleges all without healthcare.
physiorol
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:52 am

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by physiorol »

TechFI wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:12 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:16 am Here are some benefits to a health care career.

1) COVID-19 shutdowns aside, medicine is recession proof.
2) Not up or out. A lot of high paying careers in finance, management consulting, or big law are notorious for aggressively weeding people out early in the career. The compensation can be astronomical for the partners, but how many new hires get the brass ring?
3) With an aging population, demand will continue to grow for medical services.
4) Compared to tech, less age discrimination, real or perceived.
Here's the downsides
- Ridiculously long training times and extremely large tuition loans
- I'm 50/50 on the aging population story as tech will render healthcare obsolete eventually. With tech advances we will replace many of the low level intellectual aspects such as reading CAT scans, radiological charts, X-rays, etc. (the tech is here btw). Next step is replacing the higher-level intellectual diagnosing aspects, which really can be reduced to an immense flowchart (think about all doctors are is an interactive flowchart of symptoms -> diagnosis). A machine with all the information will do a better job than humans can, because no one human can know all of the medical knowledge. The only thing we are still behind in replacing is the person through robotics. Robotics unfortunately has lagged behind software development.
- I also argue that a medical profession is higher risk. If you go big tech, big law, big consulting, big finance, you are literally earning 90th percentile salary from the get go. *And* compounding works in your favor. If you go medical, you lose a ton of opportunity cost, compounding works against you, and you have increased 'time-horizon' risk which I define as the inability to accurately predict the future the further out you go. Money today is worth more than money in the future. Just imagine how you would feel if your kid goes through 10 years of schooling, only to find out that tech has replaced half of medical jobs and now the career is not as lucrative as what it once was. You've lost a decade of opportunity cost, and the older you are, the harder it will be to pivot to a totally different thing.
Additional downsides include that healthcare is a highly regulated industry (probably for good reason) that creates additional stress for providers in terms of documentation, navigating insurance/payor rules, and meeting the needs of the bean counters in admin. Low provider stress, ethical practice and good salary (pick 2).

PS: Not sure technology is that close to eliminating the need for humans, but your point is noted.
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warner25
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by warner25 »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking...
I think that works for evaluating a "job" as you say, but that's different from evaluating a college major and career path which might take you through many different jobs, organizations, bosses, and even structural economic changes with a profound effect on compensation.

With that said, what's "interesting" changes over time too. I thought I had my dream job out of college, but it was no longer interesting to me after just a few years, and the future lifestyle and compensation looked grim. Now I do something else that's also interesting to me, but with a better outlook for lifestyle and compensation.

My oldest daughter is only 5 now, and I'm glad I still have a few years to figure out what to tell her. I'm also hoping that the economics of college radically change before then.
IowaFarmWife
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by IowaFarmWife »

physiorol wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:13 pm
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
X528 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:50 am
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:46 am
fusspot wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:21 am If it's teaching, Intervention Specialist (special education) is the way to go.
Yes, I agree, or OT/PT/SLP in either a medical or educational setting.
What is "OT/PT/SLP"?
Occupational therapist, Physical Therapist, Speech Language Pathologist
I would be cautious here. The schooling takes 7 years and debt can be quite high. Salaries are fairly low in most of the US ~70K and there is not much salary growth with experience unless you go into hospital administration. Physician Assistant or pharmacy might be the better call from a numerical standpoint or nursing followed by nurse practitioner training.
Yes, the schooling can be quite expensive (my daughter and I are both SLPs in a a school setting), but we both have a good life/work balance and have a state pension (IPERS), great health care through work, access to 403(B) plans, and have holidays and summer vacation time off. She is also eligible for the public loan forgiveness program, so the student loans will disappear in a few years.
“The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it in your back pocket.” —Will Rogers
stoptothink
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by stoptothink »

TechFI wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:21 pm
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:11 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:59 am
novemberrain wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:45 am This is the best all weather college degree

Rhetoric : https://rhetoric.berkeley.edu
That department focus seems to be totally different than most "rhetoric" programs I am familiar with. My former editor is currently getting her PhD in rhetoric and composition at the University of Utah https://writing.utah.edu/graduate/index.php. With a BA in English and MA in creative writing, her job opportunities were limited so she was a contract editor and adjunct professor, just barely making ends meet. She's absolutely brilliant, so I'm sure she'll figure it out, but when she told me what she was going to pursue a PhD in, I definitely wondered how that was going to improve her ability to support her family (she has a deadbeat husband who is a mid-30's undergrad student and a daughter).
Nice. I would advise her to follow that up with a post-doc; even if it means going a few extra hundred thousand into student debt.
Education programs that have negative ROI should never be offered, it's such a scam.

I suggest doing a perma post-doc, bumping from one post-doc to another in the hope of winning the professor lottery. Who knows, after 10 years out of school you may finally land that $80k/yr tenure-track professorship in a city that nobody has heard of before! And after 10 years you finally realize that you can't find that unicorn tenure-track position, there's always a choice to be adjunct and teach 10 classes across 3 colleges all without healthcare.
I honestly think this is her plan. I certainly hope it works out for her; I know a handful of individuals who have followed this road (including one of my best friends, who is now 40 - on his 2nd post doc- with 3 kids and living with his in-laws), but she is especially brilliant.
smitcat
Posts: 7013
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"

Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
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TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11652
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"
Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"
Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
Yes - I have seen this before in the past. Then the cycle moves on and you see the changes again , perhaps it is always this way to some extent.
oldfort
Posts: 2400
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"
Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I thought you hadn't worked in years?
smitcat
Posts: 7013
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:07 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"
Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I thought you hadn't worked in years?
I have not worked for a paycheck for years. I moved from a lucrative software developer/architect to being a SAHD, which was very rewarding in other ways. If you don’t think that’s work, well, we can disagree. My “product” is doing very well :D and I keep busy with various projects.

My wife continues to work for financial compensation. She is doing phenomenally well.

We could have retired at least a decade ago by my reckoning. Additional funds are for charity, family, indulgences, and bequests.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
oldfort
Posts: 2400
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:14 am
oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
oldfort
Posts: 2400
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:07 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am
"1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?"
Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I thought you hadn't worked in years?
I have not worked for a paycheck for years. I moved from a lucrative software developer/architect to being a SAHD, which was very rewarding in other ways. If you don’t think that’s work, well, we can disagree. My “product” is doing very well :D and I keep busy with various projects.

My wife continues to work for financial compensation. She is doing phenomenally well.

We could have retired at least a decade ago by my reckoning. Additional funds are for charity, family, indulgences, and bequests.
Being a SAHD/SAHM is not a job in the sense the FIRE community uses the term. I won't haggle over terminology, other than say it should be used consistently. If you're not retired, then neither is most of the FIRE community. If we're going to call being a SAHD/SAHM non-retired, then most of FIRE community doesn't so much desire to retire, as to switch jobs to being a SAHD/SAHM. You FIREd years ago, at least in the way most of the FIRE community would define the term.
smitcat
Posts: 7013
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:14 am
oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm

Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities

It is interesting how different we all are.
oldfort
Posts: 2400
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:00 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:14 am
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
This is mostly right.
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
This is mostly right.
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family. Hobbies, aka other activities, cost money.

It is interesting how different we all are.
Last edited by oldfort on Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
prairieman
Posts: 386
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by prairieman »

oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
For me, geography and interesting (or not) were both pass/fail questions. The rest were negotiable.
“As long as the roots are not severed, all is well.” Chauncey Gardner
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:00 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:14 am
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
This is mostly right.
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
This is mostly right.
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family.

It is interesting how different we all are.
As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:00 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:14 am
Interesting job evaluation list - I have no idea what your describing in some of these items.
Please expand on your thoughts:
What is your selected career?
Where are you located?
How did you select that career and location?
What are some items you view as being important in a preferred life?
What do you do to help balance that work and life?
What would make an office and coworkers unbearable in your view?
I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
This is mostly right.
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
This is mostly right.
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family.

It is interesting how different we all are.
As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.


I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:39 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:07 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:35 am

Wow - is what you do interesting comes in not only dead last but really insignificant.
This just goes to show how different we all are.
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I thought you hadn't worked in years?
I have not worked for a paycheck for years. I moved from a lucrative software developer/architect to being a SAHD, which was very rewarding in other ways. If you don’t think that’s work, well, we can disagree. My “product” is doing very well :D and I keep busy with various projects.

My wife continues to work for financial compensation. She is doing phenomenally well.

We could have retired at least a decade ago by my reckoning. Additional funds are for charity, family, indulgences, and bequests.
Being a SAHD/SAHM is not a job in the sense the FIRE community uses the term. I won't haggle over terminology, other than say it should be used consistently. If you're not retired, then neither is most of the FIRE community. If we're going to call being a SAHD/SAHM non-retired, then most of FIRE community doesn't so much desire to retire, as to switch jobs to being a SAHD/SAHM. You FIREd years ago, at least in the way most of the FIRE community would define the term.
I didn’t know; I guess I don’t follow the FIRE community closely enough. I would have thought that a couple would have to both no longer work for pay before they’d be considered retired.

How about if I played a considerable role in my wife’s career? We were both in the same industry, knew many of the same people, discussed her daily life at length, etc. Much more than “how was your day, honey?”
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:32 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:00 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 am

I don't plan to fill out a biography, but I fail to see how most of the list isn't self-explanatory.
Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
This is mostly right.
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
This is mostly right.
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family.

It is interesting how different we all are.
As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.


I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.

Excellent then - with all the feedback you posted I am sure I have no idea what you mean either.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:03 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:39 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:07 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:04 am
I can’t help but think this accounts for a lot of the (to me) bizarre desire to retire at the earliest possible nanosecond, requiring market returns like existed in the recent past and a 4% withdrawal rate.

We are long FI, short RE.
I thought you hadn't worked in years?
I have not worked for a paycheck for years. I moved from a lucrative software developer/architect to being a SAHD, which was very rewarding in other ways. If you don’t think that’s work, well, we can disagree. My “product” is doing very well :D and I keep busy with various projects.

My wife continues to work for financial compensation. She is doing phenomenally well.

We could have retired at least a decade ago by my reckoning. Additional funds are for charity, family, indulgences, and bequests.
Being a SAHD/SAHM is not a job in the sense the FIRE community uses the term. I won't haggle over terminology, other than say it should be used consistently. If you're not retired, then neither is most of the FIRE community. If we're going to call being a SAHD/SAHM non-retired, then most of FIRE community doesn't so much desire to retire, as to switch jobs to being a SAHD/SAHM. You FIREd years ago, at least in the way most of the FIRE community would define the term.
I didn’t know; I guess I don’t follow the FIRE community closely enough. I would have thought that a couple would have to both no longer work for pay before they’d be considered retired.

How about if I played a considerable role in my wife’s career? We were both in the same industry, knew many of the same people, discussed her daily life at length, etc. Much more than “how was your day, honey?”
Go to reddit and you can find threads such as FIRE while spouse keeps working. A lot of people would consider you to have FIREd when you stopped working for a paycheck, with no intention of ever returning to a paid job. Some people would consider you to have met the RE part as soon as you stopped working for a paycheck, but insist the FI part didn't happen until you had enough assets for the other spouse to stop working if they wanted to. Your post implies your wife could stop working if she wanted to. Some purists might argue FIRE excludes any earned income in the household. Similarly, you can find debates about whether FIRE bloggers truly FIREd when they receive advertising revenue from their blogs.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

^ thanks Oldfort, that expands my understanding. For the record, when I became a SAHD, my intention was to return to a paycheck producing job, but I underestimated two things:
1 how difficult it would be to return to software development after more than a decade off
2 how my wife’s career would zoom, so that even if I returned to work, my pay would be inconsequential
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
physiorol
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by physiorol »

IowaFarmWife wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:00 pm
physiorol wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:13 pm
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
X528 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:50 am
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:46 am

Yes, I agree, or OT/PT/SLP in either a medical or educational setting.
What is "OT/PT/SLP"?
Occupational therapist, Physical Therapist, Speech Language Pathologist
I would be cautious here. The schooling takes 7 years and debt can be quite high. Salaries are fairly low in most of the US ~70K and there is not much salary growth with experience unless you go into hospital administration. Physician Assistant or pharmacy might be the better call from a numerical standpoint or nursing followed by nurse practitioner training.
Yes, the schooling can be quite expensive (my daughter and I are both SLPs in a a school setting), but we both have a good life/work balance and have a state pension (IPERS), great health care through work, access to 403(B) plans, and have holidays and summer vacation time off. She is also eligible for the public loan forgiveness program, so the student loans will disappear in a few years.
Yes, that is a great option that those degrees open up. Stable work with good hours, great pension/benefits will offset any potential lower starting pay relative to the private sector. And public sector jobs tend to have much more consistent salary growth so that at the end of your career the pay in public sector can be higher than private sector. The key is to get in early and stick it out?
IowaFarmWife
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by IowaFarmWife »

physiorol wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:04 am
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:00 pm
physiorol wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:13 pm
IowaFarmWife wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
X528 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:50 am

What is "OT/PT/SLP"?
Occupational therapist, Physical Therapist, Speech Language Pathologist
I would be cautious here. The schooling takes 7 years and debt can be quite high. Salaries are fairly low in most of the US ~70K and there is not much salary growth with experience unless you go into hospital administration. Physician Assistant or pharmacy might be the better call from a numerical standpoint or nursing followed by nurse practitioner training.
Yes, the schooling can be quite expensive (my daughter and I are both SLPs in a a school setting), but we both have a good life/work balance and have a state pension (IPERS), great health care through work, access to 403(B) plans, and have holidays and summer vacation time off. She is also eligible for the public loan forgiveness program, so the student loans will disappear in a few years.
Yes, that is a great option that those degrees open up. Stable work with good hours, great pension/benefits will offset any potential lower starting pay relative to the private sector. And public sector jobs tend to have much more consistent salary growth so that at the end of your career the pay in public sector can be higher than private sector. The key is to get in early and stick it out?
Yes, I have had quite a few colleagues start working right out of grad school and are able to retire by the time they are in their early to mid 50's with a good pension.
“The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it in your back pocket.” —Will Rogers
KyleAAA
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by KyleAAA »

All of them are worthwhile. If your goal is to have the best chance at being well-compensated, STEM is a pretty good choice. But going into STEM just because you want money is a recipe for unhappiness. So many jobs in business are major-agnostic, so you can't really say something like a BA English isn't worthwhile while a BA in Business or Accounting is.
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by KyleAAA »

alex123711 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:05 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:32 pm I wouldn't come at it from that direction, but.....

Currently, there is an insatiable appetite for Computer Science/Computer engineering degrees, and the new grad salaries are skyrocketing.
The problem for me with computer science is there don't seem to be any professional accreditation, e.g an accountant can became a CA/CFA, lawyers and engineers get registration which are sought after and not easily attainable, where computer science doesn't have this differentiator, which leads your skills becoming quickly redundant as you get older (if you don't keep up) whereas an older accountant with a CFA would be still be sought after for their knowledge.
How would accreditation somehow make it such that software engineers wouldn't need to keep up with the latest technologies? I don't see how that would make a difference unless you slowed the pace of technological improvement at the same time.
coachd50
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by coachd50 »

sd323232 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:18 am
New Providence wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:10 pm
alex123711 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 pm Which degrees are still worthwhile/ likely to lead to employment these days?
"Worthwhile" and "likely to lead to employment" are two different questions.

The worth of knowledge is defined by your value system. For me, any college degree is worthwhile because I value knowledge and education in itself.
I think you missed what OP is actually asking for. Since this is a financial board, OP has a legit question.

OP has a true boglehead question, if he is gonna pay money for school, why not get the best bang for the buck?
I was under the impression that "boglehead" simply meant subscribing to the investment philosophies of John Bogle--low expense ratio wide ranged index funds. Not an entire belief system driven on maximizing financial return. In fact isn't Bogle's book entitled "Enough"?

I think the OP should study what they are interested in, BUT as you point out it is important to realize the potential financial ramifications for that, and have a plan in place for that. Going into to school "to get a job" probably isn't the way to go. If the OP just wants something to lead to employment, trade school might far outpace a degree.
capran
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by capran »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:01 pm
oldfort wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:22 pm
capran wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:38 pm
oldfort wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm
capran wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:12 pm Is it worthwhile to obtain a degree to maximize the probability of acquiring a career that you may not even be interested in?
Interesting is overrated. The purpose of a career is make money.
When I taught career guidance, I used to say "You will likely work about 40 or so years. if you get two weeks off, that comes to about 10,000 days of work/career. You better find something that you enjoy, otherwise, getting up and going to work for 10,000 days is going to lead to misery." If you are saying it is only about money, maybe interesting is in a field of investing or money management. But I would defer to the collective whether the purpose of getting a degree and a career is strictly about the Benjamins. I hope it's more than that. (Not that I don't love what money can buy. Monday I'll go get on my boat and sail away for much of the summer.)
If I was to going to evaluate a job, here would be my weighted ranking:
70% - total compensation including salary, bonuses, stock options, and benefits
15% - work life balance. How much time off do you get each year? What's the normal number of hours to work each week?
10% - geography. Is the job in a location I want to live?
4% - the individual office. Can I stand my boss and coworkers?
1% - Is the career itself somehow inherently interesting?
It is interesting just how different people can be. My weightings would be almost exactly opposite of yours except for the work life balance--and I would even weight that more heavily.
Yes, that is so interesting. After the Military 4 yrs I spent three years in Law Enforcement, and also finished my BA in applied psych. From there became a therapist in a residential treatment facility. and continued in school getting an MS in clinical psych. worked for 7 1/2 years at a Mental Health Center, emergency psychiatric assessment (homicidal, suicidal and gravely disabled). Pay was excellent but hours long,weekends and holidays. In 86 discovered my passion for sailing outweighed my desire for money. Bought a boat in Florida and sailed to the Bahamas for 6months, came back and went to school for my school counseling certificate. started that job making 16k less than Mental Health, but it gave me summers off, and have traveled every summer aboard since then. I guess I was lucky and found all my work interesting, and time off during my last 26 years of work as a highest priority. (also the day schedule, weekends free was wonderful for family life.) We still managed to do OK in the money department as we don't spend 30% of our annual income in retirement. (except we do pay the government 21,000 a year in income tax in addition to what we spend. LOL)
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:37 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:32 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:00 am

Well no one will be able to tell the intentions of your posts if you will not expand on your thoughts.
It sounds a lot like your thoughts are that a great career would be summarized in this way:
- no interest in the job, results, or impacts it has personally or with others
This is mostly right.
- not important that there is any derived value from peers, supervisors or those you mentor
This is mostly right.
- not much importance to wherever you live
- some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family.

It is interesting how different we all are.
As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.


I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.

Excellent then - with all the feedback you posted I am sure I have no idea what you mean either.


Follow the money. Make money your number one priority when choosing careers/jobs.
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:00 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:37 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:32 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am
As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.


I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.

Excellent then - with all the feedback you posted I am sure I have no idea what you mean either.


Follow the money. Make money your number one priority when choosing careers/jobs.


That will definitely work to make the most funds in the least amount of time. These are some of the most common things that get in the way of following money and disrupting a great plan:
- do not get married
- do not have kids
- do not have hobbies
- best to not have friends either
shess
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by shess »

alex123711 wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:05 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:32 pm I wouldn't come at it from that direction, but.....

Currently, there is an insatiable appetite for Computer Science/Computer engineering degrees, and the new grad salaries are skyrocketing.
The problem for me with computer science is there don't seem to be any professional accreditation, e.g an accountant can became a CA/CFA, lawyers and engineers get registration which are sought after and not easily attainable, where computer science doesn't have this differentiator, which leads your skills becoming quickly redundant as you get older (if you don't keep up) whereas an older accountant with a CFA would be still be sought after for their knowledge.
A CFA is not knowledge, it's an accreditation. It might be helpful because it allows you to advertise yourself in certain useful ways that you can't if you lack it, but it doesn't inherently make you more knowledgeable in your field than someone without a CFA. I mean, true, you have to commit to meeting ongoing continuing education requirements, and it would be dumb to do that in a way which does not increase your knowledge, and also it would be kinda dumb to collect all the knowledge a CFA might be expected to have and then to not go through with getting your CFA. I'm just saying they are separate concepts.

Anyhow, where I'm going with that is that software engineers who don't keep up with the field don't keep up with the field because they don't keep up with the field. Having a certificate and an ongoing 20 hours/year continuing education requirement wouldn't change that. Especially since the kinds of software engineers you really want probably do effectively hundreds of hours/year of continuing education to keep up with or invent the incoming technology.

As a result, I wouldn't recommend software engineering or computer science to anyone who wasn't intrinsically interested in the field to the point where they were already grinding away at it. Forcing yourself to feign interest because it's lucrative is a short road to burnout and unhappiness.
TheNightsToCome
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

TechFI wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:12 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:16 am Here are some benefits to a health care career.

1) COVID-19 shutdowns aside, medicine is recession proof.
2) Not up or out. A lot of high paying careers in finance, management consulting, or big law are notorious for aggressively weeding people out early in the career. The compensation can be astronomical for the partners, but how many new hires get the brass ring?
3) With an aging population, demand will continue to grow for medical services.
4) Compared to tech, less age discrimination, real or perceived.
Here's the downsides
- Ridiculously long training times and extremely large tuition loans
- I'm 50/50 on the aging population story as tech will render healthcare obsolete eventually. With tech advances we will replace many of the low level intellectual aspects such as reading CAT scans, radiological charts, X-rays, etc. (the tech is here btw). Next step is replacing the higher-level intellectual diagnosing aspects, which really can be reduced to an immense flowchart (think about all doctors are is an interactive flowchart of symptoms -> diagnosis). A machine with all the information will do a better job than humans can, because no one human can know all of the medical knowledge. The only thing we are still behind in replacing is the person through robotics. Robotics unfortunately has lagged behind software development.
- I also argue that a medical profession is higher risk. If you go big tech, big law, big consulting, big finance, you are literally earning 90th percentile salary from the get go. *And* compounding works in your favor. If you go medical, you lose a ton of opportunity cost, compounding works against you, and you have increased 'time-horizon' risk which I define as the inability to accurately predict the future the further out you go. Money today is worth more than money in the future. Just imagine how you would feel if your kid goes through 10 years of schooling, only to find out that tech has replaced half of medical jobs and now the career is not as lucrative as what it once was. You've lost a decade of opportunity cost, and the older you are, the harder it will be to pivot to a totally different thing.
1. Ridiculously long training times and high tuition, definitely.

2. However, it's silly to think that physicians will be replaced by technology, at least in this century. Computers can't even read a simple ECG reliably. A CT or MRI is a much tougher proposition. Technology may replace radiologists someday, many days from now, but radiology is just one specialty.

The immense flow chart idea isn't workable because gathering the appropriate information from the patient to enter in the flow chart can't be performed by a computer.

Beyond that, patients care much less about diagnostic and therapeutic acumen than you might imagine. Many are seeking something else that they won't get from a computer.

3. Opportunity cost, lost compounding, "time-horizon" risk: yes, yes, yes.
***
More importantly, many specialties involve soul-crushing call. This is the most important negative in medicine.

Regarding the financial risk, it isn't technological, it's political. Physician compensation may be slashed by fiat with a move to some sort of single-payer system. A typical matriculating college student is 8 years of school and six more years of training (more or less) away from starting his/her career. Everything can change in that amount of time.
Last edited by TheNightsToCome on Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

smitcat wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:10 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:00 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:37 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:32 am
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am

As you do not choose to elaborate on any of these topics it is impossible to understand your position other than we are all really different.
In regards to the one item that you did put some words next to:

"some but minimal importance to family, friends and other activities
I don't look at it this way at all. Your financial compensation is what allows you to buy a house in a good school district, send your kids to private school, or send them to the college of their choice. I would bet money, primarily lack thereof, is one of the top two reasons couples argue. Income is what allows the other parent to stay-at-home if that's what they want to do. I don't see a disconnect between financial compensation and family."


The words you did use to describe family, friends and activities have only addressed those items which you purchase or supply to those around you. There is an absence of any importance to time, direction, quality, or anything other than what one can define with money.


I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.

Excellent then - with all the feedback you posted I am sure I have no idea what you mean either.


Follow the money. Make money your number one priority when choosing careers/jobs.


That will definitely work to make the most funds in the least amount of time. These are some of the most common things that get in the way of following money and disrupting a great plan:
- do not get married
- do not have kids
- do not have hobbies
- best to not have friends either


Kids are expensive. Hobbies are expensive. Marriage and realistically divorce can be expensive, unless you luck out and marry a spouse who earns more than you do. Marriage, kids, and hobbies can all be reasons to prioritize making money your number one priority in your career. The people best positioned to follow their passion in some low paying career are those who want to remain perpetually single, have no desire for kids ever, and don't have any hobbies. If you plan to have a spouse, kids, or hobbies, then you can't afford to pursue a career based on whether you find the job interesting and fulfilling.
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rob
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by rob »

AAA wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:22 pm I just want to point out what would for me be an unfavorable characteristic of this work, namely, that it seems every few years a lot of what you know becomes obsolete (FORTRAN anyone?) and you have to continually refresh a large part of your knowledge base. That gets harder to do as you get older.
Anyone wanting to do IT work should take this point seriously.... While the fundamentals do not change as much as people like to publicize, the treadmill to keep current from a specific technology POV really is relentless.... It's also easy to get stuck on a less than optimal branch (sorry for the "in" pun).... How much of this is harder as you age vs. just not been able to forget some stuff I don't know :D
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
ThatsMyFamJam
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by ThatsMyFamJam »

IMO the best way is to start with who you are, i.e., your strengths and interests, including ability to focus on one thing for a while because you like it, not which degrees have ROI in a vacuum. That is unless you're willing to work in a field you didn't particularly like because of the money with a plan to bank it, retire or pivot to something else, which few people have the capacity to withstand.

Do you like or are you good at/with your hands, words, concepts, puzzles, logic, math, critical thinking/argument, public speaking, dealing with people and understanding their motivations? Explore the kinds of work that fit your personality. Look beyond traditional jobs. With tech moving so fast, some skills don't even have an established name yet, and roles are evolving.

Don't get too caught up with college ranking. There are unemployed Ivy grads and successful self-taught HS grads who used free online education to get certified (e.g., Salesforce).

There are some characteristics that apply across many fields or may be innate, like the ability to manage people or to sell. There will likely be jobs in accounting because it is essential for business.

Talk with as many people as possible, to learn about what they do, who they know, and possibly, how you can help them or they can help you. Go to business or trade orgs. And finally, don't be a jerk.
TechFI
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by TechFI »

ThatsMyFamJam wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:40 pm IMO the best way is to start with who you are, i.e., your strengths and interests, including ability to focus on one thing for a while because you like it, not which degrees have ROI in a vacuum. That is unless you're willing to work in a field you didn't particularly like because of the money with a plan to bank it, retire or pivot to something else, which few people have the capacity to withstand.

Do you like or are you good at/with your hands, words, concepts, puzzles, logic, math, critical thinking/argument, public speaking, dealing with people and understanding their motivations? Explore the kinds of work that fit your personality. Look beyond traditional jobs. With tech moving so fast, some skills don't even have an established name yet, and roles are evolving.

Don't get too caught up with college ranking. There are unemployed Ivy grads and successful self-taught HS grads who used free online education to get certified (e.g., Salesforce).

There are some characteristics that apply across many fields or may be innate, like the ability to manage people or to sell. There will likely be jobs in accounting because it is essential for business.

Talk with as many people as possible, to learn about what they do, who they know, and possibly, how you can help them or they can help you. Go to business or trade orgs. And finally, don't be a jerk.
I would run a first pass filter on high ROI degrees, and then match your strengths/interests to this pre-selected high ROI degrees. Doing what "you love" won't feed you. Don't be young and naive, you'll regret it later in life. The most you should do, is don't do something you dislike. Learn to like new stuff. It's ridiculous that people have such romantic notions of their "dream occupation". That does not exist. Your "dream occupation" is the one where you can excel at *and* get paid well. You excel at stuff because you spend time learning it and developing skills. You get paid well by picking a career path that has a history or culture of paying well.

College rankings per se are flawed, but the prestige of the college is not be to underestimated. Statistically, those who go to better ranked colleges have better outcomes in life. Of course there's the ivy league bum and the gritty community college fighter... but focusing on outliers ain't the right way to make life decisions. A lot of things in life is about perception... and you definitely want that to be working for you not against you. A good college background will open-doors. If you're from Harvard, people will take notice. If you're from podunk state university, nobody cares and you have to fight to be noticed. I speak from experience having degrees and jobs at "brand name" institutions/companies and "no name" ones... and the perception difference is real. You get more respect coming from a good college, and you will also respect yourself more, as this also affects your morale and confidence. For myself, for 2 years I worked at a "no name" company, and I just hated it, having to justify my existence during every professional networking event. At some point you will even start to doubt yourself and developing some kind of inferiority complex. Seriously... do not go down this road. I got out of it, and could not be happier.

And one should always align the college you are going to and the degree your are pursuing to the job you want after graduation. A degree from Harvard is useless if it doesn't get you a good job/career. I will go even further and say, if your college degree has not led you to the job you want, you have basically failed. Focus on the end goal and work backwards.
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:51 pm
smitcat wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:10 pm
oldfort wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:00 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:37 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:32 am

I don't really know what you're getting at or mean by direction or quality. I'll just end with time outside work, falls into my work-life balance bucket.
Excellent then - with all the feedback you posted I am sure I have no idea what you mean either.
Follow the money. Make money your number one priority when choosing careers/jobs.
That will definitely work to make the most funds in the least amount of time. These are some of the most common things that get in the way of following money and disrupting a great plan:
- do not get married
- do not have kids
- do not have hobbies
- best to not have friends either
Kids are expensive. Hobbies are expensive. Marriage and realistically divorce can be expensive, unless you luck out and marry a spouse who earns more than you do. Marriage, kids, and hobbies can all be reasons to prioritize making money your number one priority in your career. The people best positioned to follow their passion in some low paying career are those who want to remain perpetually single, have no desire for kids ever, and don't have any hobbies. If you plan to have a spouse, kids, or hobbies, then you can't afford to pursue a career based on whether you find the job interesting and fulfilling.
"If you plan to have a spouse, kids, or hobbies, then you can't afford to pursue a career based on whether you find the job interesting and fulfilling."
Unless you plan and choose with a focus on that choice.
Arabesque
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by Arabesque »

I have been following this thread, trying not to get sucked in, but I do think it’s getting a little unrealistic and dogmatic.

TechFI writes: "
And one should always align the college you are going to and the degree your are pursuing to the job you want after graduation. A degree from Harvard is useless if it doesn't get you a good job/career. I will go even further and say, if your college degree has not led you to the job you want, you have basically failed. Focus on the end goal and work backwards."

Working backwards may work for you if you are planning to be an RN or an engineer for the rest of your life, but it presumes that 18 y.o. know who they are and what they want to do, that 1% interest in your work makes for a happy life, and that the purpose of a college degree is a finite job/work/money.

Anecdotally, one of my kids graduated from Harvard a couple of years ago. Some of her friends had clear career goals, but two years out they are pursuing great opportunities and going in surprising directions. Some had "worthless" majors (English, classics), but managed to do just fine (one started at 6 figures). Others were a few years into a major, grew disinterested, and switch their paths. They struggled to find a job because of the switch, but guess what. They are doing amazing creative things as they remake themselves. I doubt Zucherberg started with a clear goal.

I don't encourage students to be art history majors (though I have a persistent niece, an art history major, who has a fabulous job). I have on occasion encouraged students to be English or gender studies majors. Some did very well.
AnEngineer
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by AnEngineer »

TechFI wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:01 amStatistically, those who go to better ranked colleges have better outcomes in life.
Unfortunately, due to hard it is to get in, without additional data, this mostly tells us that those who are accepted to better ranked colleges have better outcomes than those who aren't.
AnEngineer
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by AnEngineer »

Arabesque wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:42 am Working backwards may work for you if you are planning to be an RN or an engineer for the rest of your life, but it presumes that 18 y.o. know who they are and what they want to do, that 1% interest in your work makes for a happy life, and that the purpose of a college degree is a finite job/work/money.
I want to point out that if you show up to college without a plan, the 'undeclared' courses they'll push you towards won't allow you to graduate with a science or engineering degree in four years.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

Arabesque wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:42 am I doubt Zucherberg started with a clear goal.
Zuckerberg started working on FB his sophomore year. He was a CS major. You couldn't have invented a more laser focused career path.
oldfort
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by oldfort »

Arabesque wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:42 am I have been following this thread, trying not to get sucked in, but I do think it’s getting a little unrealistic and dogmatic.

TechFI writes: "
And one should always align the college you are going to and the degree your are pursuing to the job you want after graduation. A degree from Harvard is useless if it doesn't get you a good job/career. I will go even further and say, if your college degree has not led you to the job you want, you have basically failed. Focus on the end goal and work backwards."

Working backwards may work for you if you are planning to be an RN or an engineer for the rest of your life, but it presumes that 18 y.o. know who they are and what they want to do, that 1% interest in your work makes for a happy life, and that the purpose of a college degree is a finite job/work/money.

Anecdotally, one of my kids graduated from Harvard a couple of years ago. Some of her friends had clear career goals, but two years out they are pursuing great opportunities and going in surprising directions. Some had "worthless" majors (English, classics), but managed to do just fine (one started at 6 figures). Others were a few years into a major, grew disinterested, and switch their paths. They struggled to find a job because of the switch, but guess what. They are doing amazing creative things as they remake themselves. I doubt Zucherberg started with a clear goal.

I don't encourage students to be art history majors (though I have a persistent niece, an art history major, who has a fabulous job). I have on occasion encouraged students to be English or gender studies majors. Some did very well.
Going to Harvard can be seen as a money maximizing choice.
reln
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by reln »

alex123711 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 pm Which degrees are still worthwhile/ likely to lead to employment these days?
Medical
Bioinformatics
Chemistry (and other hard sciences)
Math\Stats\Comp Sci
Law
Education
Accounting
Mortuary

I'm sure there are other good choices I missed.
Arabesque
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by Arabesque »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... classmates

Zuckerberg “discovered” Facebook while attending Harvard. There is no evidence that he started there with that goal.
smitcat
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Re: Which College degrees are worthwhile?

Post by smitcat »

Arabesque wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:44 am https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... classmates

Zuckerberg “discovered” Facebook while attending Harvard. There is no evidence that he started there with that goal.
He started much earlier with computers and that goal....
"Zuckerberg developed an interest in computers at an early age; when he was about 12, he used Atari BASIC to create a messaging program he named "Zucknet." His father used the program in his dental office, so that the receptionist could inform him of a new patient without yelling across the room. The family also used Zucknet to communicate within the house."

The full article gives a much better description here...
https://www.biography.com/business-figu ... zuckerberg
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