How much umbrella insurance?

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Lee_WSP
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:44 pm

I just want to add for everyone:

Every single party involved in an insurance claim is very motivated to settle the thing as quickly as possible.

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:40 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though.
I don't think that a PI can legally discover the balance of taxable accounts, tax-advantaged accounts, etc. But perhaps I'm wrong. Of course, an attorney can formally request that a defendant disclose such information, and courts may mandate that you provide it. That's why it's a great idea to shield as much of those assets as you can. In our state (WA), IRAs have the same legal protection as ERISA accounts, so the only significant asset we're likely to ever have that's at all unprotected is the difference between our home's market value and the state's threshold for judgments on primary residences, which is $125k, IIRC, and that's covered by our homeowner's insurance and separately by our auto insurance.
Such information has nothing to do with whether the defendant is either liable or what the plaintiffs damages are, therefore I'd be shocked if it was discover able in any jurisdiction.

Justice courts excepted. They don't follow the rules of civil procedure (or very many rules in fact).

In fact, whether a defendant has insurance to begin with isn't even discover-able. The plaintiff finds out because the defendant says so and has a duty to report the incident to the insurance company, who then reaches out to settle the whole matter.
Last edited by Lee_WSP on Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Van
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Van » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:49 pm
The amount of the umbrella does not limit how much you can lose. It does establish a buffer between a judgement and your personal assets. It also covers the cost of defending a claim. At $5 million, any insurance company is going to be all in on defending a claim against you.

Regardless of the size of your estate, IMO $5 million coverage looks like the best deal and, except for the one in a million occurrence, adequate protection.
This is exactly what I would have written, but Luckywon beat me to it and said it better than I could have.

I carry $5M.

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:58 pm

Van wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:49 pm
The amount of the umbrella does not limit how much you can lose. It does establish a buffer between a judgement and your personal assets. It also covers the cost of defending a claim. At $5 million, any insurance company is going to be all in on defending a claim against you.

Regardless of the size of your estate, IMO $5 million coverage looks like the best deal and, except for the one in a million occurrence, adequate protection.
This is exactly what I would have written, but Luckywon beat me to it and said it better than I could have.

I carry $5M.
If you have a net worth not far under $5 million, that's plausible. If you do, you're so wealthy that you could very likely have already retired very comfortably. If not, then why do you feel the need to carry $5 million of umbrella coverage (i.e. on top of already hefty homeowner's and auto coverage)?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 pm

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How could an attorney get an asset report from Vanguard?

Lee_WSP
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:59 pm

palanzo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How could an attorney get an asset report from Vanguard?
Only via court order, which would be shot down as irrelevant and harassing.

oldfort
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:58 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:01 pm
The umbrella limit is in addition to the coverage limit on the underlying policies.
My umbrella policy is unstacked. So the $1MM of coverage is actually $700k for auto related scenarios. I asked my agent and she said Travelers doesn't offer either a larger policy or a stacked option. That may be more agent-specific though, I'm unsure.
Lee_WSP wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:51 am
Those are all covered under auto and home owners. Get a million dollar policy on each and if you some how have even more liability exposures you absolutely positively want to cover, then look into an umbrella policy.
My auto policy doesn't offer even offer a $1MM option, much less higher. $500k is the max. Both auto policies I have are with the same insurer, so I don't know if other insurers in my state would easily offer such a level.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:02 pm

HomeStretch wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:01 pm
Not all assets are at risk if a judgment is obtained against you (varies by state). As such, I don’t believe it’s necessary to insure your entire net worth but that’s a personal decision.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:22 am
JPH wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:10 am
Is it necessary for the umbrella insurance to cover funds in retirement accounts?
IANAL, and I’m arguably a simpleton, but my advice to my kids and to a lesser extent my wife is that future earnings are on the table to be garnished. We have a generous umbrella policy.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:40 am
Chip wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:32 am
abuss368 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:11 am
Our insurance advisor recommends an umbrella policy that equals our assets.
How does your insurance advisor justify that recommendation?
I think that heuristic’s only claim to fame is that it’s easy to remember, like the heuristics that base retirement needs on salary. It’s a lazy way to convince people that they might need more umbrella than they have, with a false sense that there’s logic behind it. It might work for retired people with no income.
Chip wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:45 am
abuss368 wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:36 am
I have never seen a clear and definitive calculation or rule. More of a general recommendation. How has your insurance advisor provided a recommendation?
I don't use an insurance salesperson advisor. I have always kept an amount of coverage that I believed would promote a vigorous defense by the insurance company. For many years it was 2M. Now it's 4M.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:00 pm
Given that 100% of our retirement accounts are judgment proof in our state, we only have about $200k exposed to lawsuits, and we have enough home and auto liability coverage to more than protect that. Consequently, we see no real need for umbrella coverage for ourselves.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:40 pm
In our state (WA), IRAs have the same legal protection as ERISA accounts, so the only significant asset we're likely to ever have that's at all unprotected is the difference between our home's market value and the state's threshold for judgments on primary residences, which is $125k, IIRC, and that's covered by our homeowner's insurance and separately by our auto insurance.
I've wondered about this myself. I vaguely recall at one point hearing that I shouldn't rollover assets from 401ks to IRAs if I have good investment options in the 401ks as they carry greater asset protection. It is one area I've wanted to learn more about as move than half of my net work is in my main 401k and my IRA covering 1/3 of what is left. If exposed liability is personal property (home, auto, belongings) + taxable, my $1MM policy provides more than twice my exposed liability.

Anyone have some key words or good threads to share where I can research what NC and SC (one of my autos is domiciled in SC) do?

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:14 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:59 pm
palanzo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How could an attorney get an asset report from Vanguard?
Only via court order, which would be shot down as irrelevant and harassing.
I agree. I was waiting for NewMoneyMustBeSmart to reply since he said "it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks".

I would like to know why he is so certain about this. Still waiting for a reply.

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:15 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
I asked the same question above. Still waiting for NewMoneyMustBeSmart to reply.

Lee_WSP
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p

oldfort
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:21 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p
What ways? Too many people try to turn a simple auto accident into some type of spy movie.

Lee_WSP
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Location: Arizona

Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:43 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:21 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p
What ways? Too many people try to turn a simple auto accident into some type of spy movie.
The cost benefit isn't worth it for an auto accident. They dig deep for divorce.

Except it's actually the client paying in those situations. Sometimes they're just out to hurt their ex

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p
What is Pls? Do you think Vanguard would respond to this?

e5116
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by e5116 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:49 pm

In civil cases, plaintiffs can ask for a signed affidavit by a defendent of what assets they possess. Of course, defendent is under no obligation to reveal but may choose to do so if they don't have much and if they don't reveal, plaintiff often assumes they have a lot to lose....

afan
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by afan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:18 pm

This question comes up frequently. It seems the only people who know the risks and costs of personal liability and therefore how much insurance one should have aren't talking.

Actuaries for insurance companies who write these policies know the answers. Unfortunately, no one who has identified themselves as such a person has commented on the umbrella threads I have seen. Lots of speculation from people who, apparently, are not experts.
Rumors about the risk of big losses. One off anecdotes. No data.

It is good that the insurance is cheap. No need to stress about it too much.

If any actuaries in this space want to chime in, bogleheads would love to know the answers.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

Lee_WSP
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Location: Arizona

Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 pm

palanzo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm
No, the more money you flash, the larger a target you are. Easily searchable indicators of wealth include: car, home, clothing, job. Less easily found, but also useful: social circle, family assets, etc etc.
I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p
What is Pls? Do you think Vanguard would respond to this?
Private investigator. No, they’d go about it in a less than upstanding manner. Could try to call and come up with some scenario to trick the CS agent. Security is only as good as the people on the front lines.

But Again, this is not standard procedure and pretty much guaranteed to not occur.

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:42 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:02 pm
Anyone have some key words or good threads to share where I can research what NC and SC (one of my autos is domiciled in SC) do?
I found this from Google very quickly.
Assets such as IRAs, Roth IRAs, qualified retirement plans, and qualified profit sharing plans are protected under North Carolina law and federal law. This is one of the main reasons (another reason being income tax benefits) that these are so popular. Note, however, that inherited IRAs, i.e., an IRA left to a child or received from a parent, may be vulnerable to creditor attacks after a 2014 United States Supreme Court decision finding that an inherited IRA was not protected from bankruptcy creditors. The result of that case is why you might consider using an IRA trust as part of your estate planning (see below).
https://www.wardandsmith.com/articles/a ... eral%20law.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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BrandonBogle
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:42 am
BrandonBogle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:02 pm
Anyone have some key words or good threads to share where I can research what NC and SC (one of my autos is domiciled in SC) do?
I found this from Google very quickly.
Assets such as IRAs, Roth IRAs, qualified retirement plans, and qualified profit sharing plans are protected under North Carolina law and federal law. This is one of the main reasons (another reason being income tax benefits) that these are so popular. Note, however, that inherited IRAs, i.e., an IRA left to a child or received from a parent, may be vulnerable to creditor attacks after a 2014 United States Supreme Court decision finding that an inherited IRA was not protected from bankruptcy creditors. The result of that case is why you might consider using an IRA trust as part of your estate planning (see below).
https://www.wardandsmith.com/articles/a ... eral%20law.
Thank you Will. From what I’ve seen between the law firms wanting my business in the search results, it seems that SC doesn’t afford IRA protections while NC does (other than inherited). Unsure though if my SC titled/registered car is in an accident and I’m sued though. Which states laws apply get confusing depending on where it would occur (while traveling in NC or elsewhere with that vehicle), especially as it pertains to asset protection. Would a SC suit brought against me be shielded from my IRA since my primary residence (and only residence) is in NC?

Makes my head spin.

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:05 am

Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 pm
palanzo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:33 pm


I think we agree more than we disagree. However, it's not very hard for an attorney or private investigator to get an asset report from brokerages and banks, from information in your credit report, though. So I gently disagree, it's not just assets titled in your name on the public record.

_How To Be Invisible_ does recommend titling assets in companies/llcs for this low-profile purpose, with which I Agree.
How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators? If so, we should see some class action lawsuits in that area. An attorney might be able to get that via court order, but typically it happens at the end of the process not the beginning. The attorney has already sued you, won a court judgment, and is looking to collect through a debtor's exam.
Private investigators have ways. Attorneys hire the PIs.p
What is Pls? Do you think Vanguard would respond to this?
Private investigator. No, they’d go about it in a less than upstanding manner. Could try to call and come up with some scenario to trick the CS agent. Security is only as good as the people on the front lines.

But Again, this is not standard procedure and pretty much guaranteed to not occur.
What you are suggesting that the attorneys do is illegal.

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UncleLeo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by UncleLeo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:42 am

Another newbie question, please -
For renters, does umbrella insurance usually include renters insurance? (events such as visitor injured on the premises and sues me, etc)
I've started researching the whole umbrella insurance topic and wondering if I should get renters insurance separately (never had once thus far)? I'd rather have as less policies as possible for simplicity.

SovereignInvestor
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by SovereignInvestor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:18 am

An insurer has a duty to settle below policy limit if they are able to. Otherwise the insurer is forced to pay Loss in excess of policy limit.

If someonenhas $5M of assets and $5M umbrella and the plaintiff was willing to settle at $5M but the insurer wanted to try to defend to get case dismissed and it didn't work and judge awarded $10M. Then in this case the umbrella insurer is on the hook for $10M.

Others posted about why the rate per $1M coverage increase as umbrella limit rises which is counter intuitive.

A couple reasons why it would happen:

1) Adverse section. People buying that high of coverage know they need it and are more likely to be sued for negligence.

2) Many plaintiffs and insurers often have settlement at policy limits. So buying more limit means all else equal higher settlements.

This is more of a reason why the rate per 1M of coverage would be more flat (as opposed to decrease) as limit rises, it doesn't explain an actual increase as much.

MikeG62
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by MikeG62 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:37 am

SovereignInvestor wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:18 am
An insurer has a duty to settle below policy limit if they are able to. Otherwise the insurer is forced to pay Loss in excess of policy limit.

If someone has $5M of assets and $5M umbrella and the plaintiff was willing to settle at $5M but the insurer wanted to try to defend to get case dismissed and it didn't work and judge awarded $10M. Then in this case the umbrella insurer is on the hook for $10M.
This is good to know.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience

afan
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by afan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:05 am

UncleLeo wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:42 am
Another newbie question, please -
For renters, does umbrella insurance usually include renters insurance? (events such as visitor injured on the premises and sues me, etc)
I've started researching the whole umbrella insurance topic and wondering if I should get renters insurance separately (never had once thus far)? I'd rather have as less policies as possible for simplicity.
You need to check for your situation. In general:
Umbrella insurance sits on top of other coverage.
For most people who have it, the umbrella is on top of homeowners and auto insurance.
For someone who rents, substitute "renters" for "homeowners".

Read the policies carefully. The umbrella requires certain underlying coverage in your auto and renters policies. If your auto and renters are with the same company as your umbrella- the usual situation- then you should be good. The insurance agent should have set it up correctly. If you got the umbrella from a different company, then it is up to you or the agent who sold the umbrella policy to make sure that you have the right coverage.
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Harry Livermore
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Harry Livermore » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:30 am

We have $5MM in umbrella. It was pretty reasonable ($600/ year?) up until kids started driving... now it's $1200/ year. We have auto, all properties, and umbrella all with the same insurer. Auto insurance amounts are all at the upper limits as suggested/ required by the insurer.
I think we may ratchet down years from now, as we perhaps sell properties, and as our kids become fully independent. But who knows.Maybe by then $5MM will be the "standard" (terrible term), as $1MM and $2MM seemed to be before...
Interesting how the per-mil amount goes up when the coverage goes up. Some good theories put forth by BHs.
Cheers

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:32 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 am
Would a SC suit brought against me be shielded from my IRA since my primary residence (and only residence) is in NC?
I believe that the state where the vehicle is registered is trumped by your state of residence. But it's something that a five minute call to a NC attorney would resolve and likely at no cost.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

SovereignInvestor
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by SovereignInvestor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:42 am

MikeG62 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:37 am
SovereignInvestor wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:18 am
An insurer has a duty to settle below policy limit if they are able to. Otherwise the insurer is forced to pay Loss in excess of policy limit.

If someone has $5M of assets and $5M umbrella and the plaintiff was willing to settle at $5M but the insurer wanted to try to defend to get case dismissed and it didn't work and judge awarded $10M. Then in this case the umbrella insurer is on the hook for $10M.
This is good to know.
Yes which is why when buying umbrella the better question is what's the most someone would settle a negligence claim against me at...not what judgment would be awarded.

This is there to protect consumer. Here's an example:

If there is a negligence case against insured and say it's known to be pure 50/50 whether trial awards $8M or zero but the insured has $5M umbrella. Say then the insurer can easily settle for $5M before trial since the average expected payout of trial is only $4M for the plaintiff (50% chance of 8M award and 50% chance of 0) so 5M is a good deal for plaintiff. But the issue is that 5M would be a bad deal for insurer since their expected payout is only 2.5M at a trial (either insurer pays full 5M policy limit if court rules with plaintiff or 0 if against) and so the $5M is a good outcome for plaintiff and bad for insurer so insurer has incentive to gamble on going to trial where average expected outcome is only them paying 2.5M instead of settling for 5M.

But when insurer goes to trial they are gambling with insured money. The insured pays 0 if they settle and if it goes to trial theres 50/50 chance they have assets taken via judgment in amount of 3M.

Not fair to insured that they rely on insurer to defend them but insurer has an incentive to gamble and make insured liable for personal judgment where insured would rather settle.

The duty to settle prevents the insurer from gambling in a trial where it benefits them to take the risk but hurts insured.

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:43 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:32 am
BrandonBogle wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 am
Would a SC suit brought against me be shielded from my IRA since my primary residence (and only residence) is in NC?
I believe that the state where the vehicle is registered is trumped by your state of residence. But it's something that a five minute call to a NC attorney would resolve and likely at no cost.
The state where the incident happened has nothing to do with the ensuing collection action. He’d be sued in his home state for the balance.

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 am

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:43 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:32 am
BrandonBogle wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 am
Would a SC suit brought against me be shielded from my IRA since my primary residence (and only residence) is in NC?
I believe that the state where the vehicle is registered is trumped by your state of residence. But it's something that a five minute call to a NC attorney would resolve and likely at no cost.
The state where the incident happened has nothing to do with the ensuing collection action. He’d be sued in his home state for the balance.
Thanks. I thought so.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

oldfort
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:56 am

SovereignInvestor wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:18 am
An insurer has a duty to settle below policy limit if they are able to. Otherwise the insurer is forced to pay Loss in excess of policy limit.

If someonenhas $5M of assets and $5M umbrella and the plaintiff was willing to settle at $5M but the insurer wanted to try to defend to get case dismissed and it didn't work and judge awarded $10M. Then in this case the umbrella insurer is on the hook for $10M.

Others posted about why the rate per $1M coverage increase as umbrella limit rises which is counter intuitive.

A couple reasons why it would happen:

1) Adverse section. People buying that high of coverage know they need it and are more likely to be sued for negligence.

2) Many plaintiffs and insurers often have settlement at policy limits. So buying more limit means all else equal higher settlements.

This is more of a reason why the rate per 1M of coverage would be more flat (as opposed to decrease) as limit rises, it doesn't explain an actual increase as much.
There is one other factor in the mass market carriers are likely to pay for reinsurance for large policies to the extent they offer such policies at all. They pay some other insurer to take the risk of a large policy off their books. Those reinsurance costs have to be passed along to consumers. If you want a $10M+ umbrella policy, the high end carriers such as Chubb and AIG are likely to provide the most attractive pricing.

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:06 am

palanzo wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:05 am

What you are suggesting that the attorneys do is illegal.
The only thing I said attorneys would do is hire a PI. I also said it's extremely unlikely in an accident suit.

A determined PI can get any information law enforcement can get without a warrant. Possibly more. The obvious example is to find old statements in your trash.

Again, you are not worth their time to dig through your trash over a car accident.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:29 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 am
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:43 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:32 am
BrandonBogle wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 am
Would a SC suit brought against me be shielded from my IRA since my primary residence (and only residence) is in NC?
I believe that the state where the vehicle is registered is trumped by your state of residence. But it's something that a five minute call to a NC attorney would resolve and likely at no cost.
The state where the incident happened has nothing to do with the ensuing collection action. He’d be sued in his home state for the balance.
Thanks. I thought so.
Thank you both!

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am

oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
The "punishment" for police is to disallow any fruits of the poisoned tree from being entered into evidence.

oldfort
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
It's pretty close to conspiracy theory/TV/movie plot. But because it can't happen, but because no average persons account information is worth bribing someone over.

travelspot
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by travelspot » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:08 pm

There is plenty of good advice here already (except for the claim about someone easily obtaining your investment account balances before a judgment is obtained - no). I will add a reason to obtain more umbrella coverage than just the basic $1 million.

Obviously the reason to have umbrella coverage is in case you are sued and want to protect your personal assets. In the event that you are likely to be determined at fault and the damages well exceed $1 million, sometimes the insurance company will simply escrow its entire policy amount with the court, and then wash its hands of the situation. If that insurance carrier also owed you a legal defense, the duty to defend would be extinguished if it’s already paid the policy limits. That could leave you on your own and paying for a lawyer out of your pocket, which can be very expensive.

If your umbrella policy is larger, the insurance carrier has more reason to stay in and fight.
If you don't do stuff, then you don't do stuff.

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm

travelspot wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:08 pm
There is plenty of good advice here already (except for the claim about someone easily obtaining your investment account balances before a judgment is obtained - no). I will add a reason to obtain more umbrella coverage than just the basic $1 million.
Well, it's technically quite "easy" to obtain by someone determined to get the information. But other than your ex, no one is going to be that determined.

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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by JonnyDVM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:25 pm

$5 million is plenty. $5 million will bring out the insurance companies best lawers to work a settlement. Remember that’s 5 million on top of your base policy limits. In the unlikely event you commit an act so egregious you need the insurance company to settle a suit, it would be exceedingly uncommon for that settlement to exceed 5 million. It’s great to be responsible and be insured, but at a certain point you are wasting money.
I’d trade it all for a little more | -C Montgomery Burns

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:48 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
The "punishment" for police is to disallow any fruits of the poisoned tree from being entered into evidence.
Precisely. Try telling a judge that you know that the defendant has a lot of money because a PI bribed someone to find that out.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:55 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:06 am
palanzo wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:05 am

What you are suggesting that the attorneys do is illegal.
The only thing I said attorneys would do is hire a PI. I also said it's extremely unlikely in an accident suit.

A determined PI can get any information law enforcement can get without a warrant. Possibly more. The obvious example is to find old statements in your trash.

Again, you are not worth their time to dig through your trash over a car accident.
They won't find any statements in my trash. If a PI is going to employ social engineering or bribe someone at Vanguard then I hope the courts would throw that evidence out and also prosecute the PI. It sounds like the PI business is yet another unregulated business that has no place in civil society. An attorney who hires a PI knowing that the PI will employ illegal methods or should have known, hopefully would be in legal trouble.

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:57 pm

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
And the court would not ask how the attorney got the private details about assets? I hope they would.

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:57 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
Exactly!

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:58 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
It's pretty close to conspiracy theory/TV/movie plot. But because it can't happen, but because no average persons account information is worth bribing someone over.
Or perhaps because there would be consequences for attorney and PI when the private details were disclosed in court?

palanzo
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by palanzo » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:00 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:48 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:51 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
The "punishment" for police is to disallow any fruits of the poisoned tree from being entered into evidence.
Precisely. Try telling a judge that you know that the defendant has a lot of money because a PI bribed someone to find that out.
Probably grounds for being disbarred.

oldfort
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:06 pm

Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
It's pretty close to conspiracy theory/TV/movie plot. But because it can't happen, but because no average persons account information is worth bribing someone over.
Since we're onto movie plots, can we worry about what happens if the plaintiff bribes the judge or jury?

Lee_WSP
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Location: Arizona

Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by Lee_WSP » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:15 pm

palanzo wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:58 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
It's pretty close to conspiracy theory/TV/movie plot. But because it can't happen, but because no average persons account information is worth bribing someone over.
Or perhaps because there would be consequences for attorney and PI when the private details were disclosed in court?
As I've stated numerous times. Defendants financials have nothing to do with a tort suit. It would never be brought up.

In any other case, there would be a court order to disclose the information.

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willthrill81
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:27 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:06 pm
Lee_WSP wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:11 am
oldfort wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:59 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:43 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:53 pm

How is a private investigator going to get account statements from a bank? Are you implying it's routine for bank employees to illegally disclose confidential information to private investigators?
It's illegal but it's trivial for an unscrupulous PI to bribe someone to get that.

But they don't need to break the law. When these banks, credit agencies, brokerages, credit cards "sell your data" they are selling exactly this information. They may not provide your literal account statement, but they provide information about your assets and purchases.

There seems to be some fairy tale belief that illegal things don't happen.

I agree that an unspectacular case is likely not worth the cost.

It is routine for police or attorneys to ask an agent (informer or PI) to obtain information for them, and ask not to be told how they got it. This creates plausible deniability and lack of liability for the police or attorney.
It's trivial to bribe someone to get that? Do you have any proof of this or is this some conspiracy theory in your head?
It's pretty close to conspiracy theory/TV/movie plot. But because it can't happen, but because no average persons account information is worth bribing someone over.
Since we're onto movie plots, can we worry about what happens if the plaintiff bribes the judge or jury?
I saw that on an episode of BBC's Sherlock, so it must be true!
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

ncbill
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Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by ncbill » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:06 am

travelspot wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:08 pm
There is plenty of good advice here already (except for the claim about someone easily obtaining your investment account balances before a judgment is obtained - no). I will add a reason to obtain more umbrella coverage than just the basic $1 million.

Obviously the reason to have umbrella coverage is in case you are sued and want to protect your personal assets. In the event that you are likely to be determined at fault and the damages well exceed $1 million, sometimes the insurance company will simply escrow its entire policy amount with the court, and then wash its hands of the situation. If that insurance carrier also owed you a legal defense, the duty to defend would be extinguished if it’s already paid the policy limits. That could leave you on your own and paying for a lawyer out of your pocket, which can be very expensive.

If your umbrella policy is larger, the insurance carrier has more reason to stay in and fight.
No, what happens is that you hire your own attorney who ends up getting paid by the insurer, up to the policy limit.

I've seen it done by a business facing a personal injury suit where the insurance company's legal team wanted to pay out the limit and walk away, leaving the business on the hook for any excess judgement over the limit.

The business hired a lawyer more specialized than counsel supplied by the insurer, went to trial, and was found not liable.

The insurer paid the legal bills which were, IIRC, around half the policy limit...so, technically, the business saved the insurer money, though of course that didn't stop the insurer from dropping them at renewal.

oldfort
Posts: 1002
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: How much umbrella insurance?

Post by oldfort » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:30 am

ncbill wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:06 am
travelspot wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:08 pm
There is plenty of good advice here already (except for the claim about someone easily obtaining your investment account balances before a judgment is obtained - no). I will add a reason to obtain more umbrella coverage than just the basic $1 million.

Obviously the reason to have umbrella coverage is in case you are sued and want to protect your personal assets. In the event that you are likely to be determined at fault and the damages well exceed $1 million, sometimes the insurance company will simply escrow its entire policy amount with the court, and then wash its hands of the situation. If that insurance carrier also owed you a legal defense, the duty to defend would be extinguished if it’s already paid the policy limits. That could leave you on your own and paying for a lawyer out of your pocket, which can be very expensive.

If your umbrella policy is larger, the insurance carrier has more reason to stay in and fight.
No, what happens is that you hire your own attorney who ends up getting paid by the insurer, up to the policy limit.

I've seen it done by a business facing a personal injury suit where the insurance company's legal team wanted to pay out the limit and walk away, leaving the business on the hook for any excess judgement over the limit.

The business hired a lawyer more specialized than counsel supplied by the insurer, went to trial, and was found not liable.

The insurer paid the legal bills which were, IIRC, around half the policy limit...so, technically, the business saved the insurer money, though of course that didn't stop the insurer from dropping them at renewal.
Neither of these is necessarily true in an individual, not a business policy. Read your policy, but typically the mass market carriers will only pay the legal counsel they choose to defend a suit. You can't hire your own legal counsel and bill the insurance company, if the insurance company wants to settle. On the flip side, the insurance company normally can't pay out the policy limits and walk away, unless they get a release of liability against their insured. Where interpleader agreements become important is when there are multiple plaintiffs and paying out the policy limits to settle all claims by plaintiff A could leave nothing left to pay the claims of plaintiff B.

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