Simple jobs during FATFire?

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EddyB
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by EddyB »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
CyclingDuo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:18 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 10:47 amAge 55 is like min-requirement to FIRE. Age 45 is like standard age from interacting with people in this community. Age 35 is gold standard.
So there is no worrying about joining any of the special clubs like regular FIRE, Lean FIRE, Fat FIRE, Barista FIRE, Coast FIRE, MoFIRE, Fart FIRE, etc... for our household.

We'll just have to retire.

Hey, at least it takes all the pressure off of having to have a blog... :mrgreen:
The acronym after all is Retire Early. Retirement age is 62-67 depending on when you draw SSN. So early has to be before 62. If it helps, I'll create a new category called lateFIRE (those who retire between 55-62). So now you're part of the club.
I’m pretty sure it’s FIRSEBNSETIABD (financially independent, retired somewhat early, but not so early that it’s a big deal). I see that a lot.
sailaway
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sailaway »

We are doing FIGS - Financially Independent Going on Sabbatical.

But we do have the FIRE movement to thank for convincing us to put in a few more years to get to FI, rather than just going on sabbatical and hoping for the best when we we need more money.
FireProof
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by FireProof »

I'm already morbidly obese. Now I just need to get my hands on some cash.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
randomguy
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by randomguy »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
marcopolo
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by marcopolo »

cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

randomguy wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
What do you need to have accomplished to be on a board of a megacorp?
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

marcopolo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:14 pm
cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
Because you don't want to waste money on insane healthcare expenses, which is like a 2nd mortgage? We're talking fatFIRE not obeseFIRE, which is probably where you have so much money you can just throw it on the floor and walk away.
marcopolo
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by marcopolo »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:51 pm
marcopolo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:14 pm
cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
Because you don't want to waste money on insane healthcare expenses, which is like a 2nd mortgage? We're talking fatFIRE not obeseFIRE, which is probably where you have so much money you can just throw it on the floor and walk away.
Interesting. I am not sure i would have retired (fatFIRE, or otherwise) unless i had a plan to pay for my health insurance. Sure, i get not wanting to throw money away. I currently get a subsidy for an ACA plan, but have budgeted to pay full freight, including hefty anticipated inflation for that component of my retirement budget. Will accept subsidies as long as available/eligible to provide further cushion for paying for it later if necessary.

Even having budgeted for it, I am not sure i would consider myself to be "FATFire", I view that as an even more luxurious lifestyle than we are living in some what early retirement. We retired at 51, some do not seem to even consider that "Early", let alone "FAT"

Really don't want to get into a debate about what you call retirement, but for my self, I would not consider myself retired if i had to find a job to pay for health insurance. If that were the case, I would have just kept working in my previous career which I enjoyed.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by CyclingDuo »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
Not to mention that tenure track usually takes 7 years to achieve (six year process with year 7 being your first year of tenure). You could always teach at the level of no rank, or lecturer, or adjunct in your area of expertise. Throw in teaching summer classes if you want an extra $5-$10K.

The rank of full professor is the top promotional level in academic teaching. The average tenured professor salary at this level is $141,476. You'll need a track record of success to earn this prestigious distinction.

https://work.chron.com/salary-tenure-tr ... -7796.html

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https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... n-and-more
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JoMoney
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by JoMoney »

Finding a part time job with insurance benefits worth a hoot is no easy task.
If you can afford to "retire" though, one should be able to cover whatever level of medical insurance they're looking for (or willing to assume the risk without.)
I don't think I would necessarily look for a 'simple' job if I could afford to do whatever I wanted. I would look for something gratifying that I enjoyed doing... but really I think more people should be looking for that in the first place as a primary 'job', not something they only get to if they first save a bunch of money.
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mak1277
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:49 pm
randomguy wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
What do you need to have accomplished to be on a board of a megacorp?
Typically you would need to have significant C-suite experience at a comparably-sized company, or a former Partner at a big accounting/law firm. Alternatively, you could have significant political connections (former congressman, senator, that type of thing). Or you could be a famous person who is on the board for PR reasons (e.g., Shaq on the Papa John's board).
mak1277
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:51 pm
marcopolo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:14 pm
cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
Because you don't want to waste money on insane healthcare expenses, which is like a 2nd mortgage? We're talking fatFIRE not obeseFIRE, which is probably where you have so much money you can just throw it on the floor and walk away.
I would humbly suggest that you don't even meet the "FI" part of the definition if you need to work in order to get your healthcare subsidized. Note, I'm not talking about ACA subsidies that come from managing your income.
rbaldini
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by rbaldini »

TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:57 am
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:54 am How is FATfire different from FIRE?
https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/
Fat FIRE allows you to:

* Live in the most expensive cities in the world which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive.
So basically, FatFIRE is "retiring wealthy"?
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

rbaldini wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:57 am
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:54 am How is FATfire different from FIRE?
https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/
Fat FIRE allows you to:

* Live in the most expensive cities in the world which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive.
So basically, FatFIRE is "retiring wealthy"?
It either means that or retiring without a gym membership.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
sailaway
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sailaway »

rbaldini wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:57 am
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:54 am How is FATfire different from FIRE?
https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/
Fat FIRE allows you to:

* Live in the most expensive cities in the world which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive.
So basically, FatFIRE is "retiring wealthy"?
No, no, no, you need to be able to do all that and leave an estate in danger of being taxed by the Feds in order to be wealthy!
rbaldini
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by rbaldini »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:37 am
rbaldini wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:57 am
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:54 am How is FATfire different from FIRE?
https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-i ... ire-early/
Fat FIRE allows you to:

* Live in the most expensive cities in the world which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive.
So basically, FatFIRE is "retiring wealthy"?
It either means that or retiring without a gym membership.
Got it. Cancel the gym membership and paying for your kids' tuitions will be a cinch.

Honestly that article basically boils down to "Being rich is better than being poor, so just be rich!"
Last edited by rbaldini on Fri May 29, 2020 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
KyleAAA
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by KyleAAA »

Open a margarita stand on the beach.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
sailaway
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sailaway »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
randomguy
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by randomguy »

mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:49 pm
randomguy wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
What do you need to have accomplished to be on a board of a megacorp?
Typically you would need to have significant C-suite experience at a comparably-sized company, or a former Partner at a big accounting/law firm. Alternatively, you could have significant political connections (former congressman, senator, that type of thing). Or you could be a famous person who is on the board for PR reasons (e.g., Shaq on the Papa John's board).
Being a renowned expert in the field would be the other way. The point was that the odds of doing either (being on a board or getting tenure with zero experience) is basically impossible for most people. You might be able to get a guest lecturing gig/adjunct professor at some community college, but that job isn't going to have benefits or pay a ton.
mak1277
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

randomguy wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:09 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:18 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:49 pm
randomguy wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
What do you need to have accomplished to be on a board of a megacorp?
Typically you would need to have significant C-suite experience at a comparably-sized company, or a former Partner at a big accounting/law firm. Alternatively, you could have significant political connections (former congressman, senator, that type of thing). Or you could be a famous person who is on the board for PR reasons (e.g., Shaq on the Papa John's board).


Being a renowned expert in the field would be the other way. The point was that the odds of doing either (being on a board or getting tenure with zero experience) is basically impossible for most people. You might be able to get a guest lecturing gig/adjunct professor at some community college, but that job isn't going to have benefits or pay a ton.
Yep, totally agree. It's not something a random person falls into
randomguy
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by randomguy »

rbaldini wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:40 am
Got it. Cancel the gym membership and paying for your kids' tuitions will be a cinch.

Honestly that article basically boils down to "Being rich is better than being poor, so just be rich!"
It is hard to argue with it. Who wouldn't want 10 million dollars instead of 1?:) I sort of doubt many people get to FatFire before 45 off of savings though. That is all about RSU/Option/Selling the company money where you get an event where you make 5 million bucks in one shot versus saving 200k/year.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

randomguy wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:14 am
rbaldini wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:40 am
Got it. Cancel the gym membership and paying for your kids' tuitions will be a cinch.

Honestly that article basically boils down to "Being rich is better than being poor, so just be rich!"
It is hard to argue with it. Who wouldn't want 10 million dollars instead of 1?:) I sort of doubt many people get to FatFire before 45 off of savings though. That is all about RSU/Option/Selling the company money where you get an event where you make 5 million bucks in one shot versus saving 200k/year.
Yeah, having money to invest is sort of key for investing to work. That is probably why real estate is attractive to a lot of people since they can utilize sweat equity and leverage.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
mak1277
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
Well I guess if you hate having a job you must really like having a paycheck otherwise you would have quit by now. So you can focus on what you dislike or focus on what you appreciate, your life your choice.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
mak1277
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
Well I guess if you hate having a job you must really like having a paycheck otherwise you would have quit by now. So you can focus on what you dislike or focus on what you appreciate, your life your choice.
I was planning to retire in January but had some family issues pop up. Made more sense to avoid further change for the time being. At this point, I'm going to quit when my boss tells me I have to go back to working in the office 5 days a week (i.e., in the next month or two).
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am

Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
Well I guess if you hate having a job you must really like having a paycheck otherwise you would have quit by now. So you can focus on what you dislike or focus on what you appreciate, your life your choice.
I was planning to retire in January but had some family issues pop up. Made more sense to avoid further change for the time being. At this point, I'm going to quit when my boss tells me I have to go back to working in the office 5 days a week (i.e., in the next month or two).
Good for you.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:30 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am

I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
Well I guess if you hate having a job you must really like having a paycheck otherwise you would have quit by now. So you can focus on what you dislike or focus on what you appreciate, your life your choice.
I was planning to retire in January but had some family issues pop up. Made more sense to avoid further change for the time being. At this point, I'm going to quit when my boss tells me I have to go back to working in the office 5 days a week (i.e., in the next month or two).
Good for you.
The pandemic quarantine has actually been helpful for me. I've been happier working at home & being quarantined than I was before the shut down. So I know that even if retirement is literally being locked in my house every day, it will still be better than working!
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:30 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:26 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:22 am

One thing I'm not overestimating - how much I hate having a job.
Well I guess if you hate having a job you must really like having a paycheck otherwise you would have quit by now. So you can focus on what you dislike or focus on what you appreciate, your life your choice.
I was planning to retire in January but had some family issues pop up. Made more sense to avoid further change for the time being. At this point, I'm going to quit when my boss tells me I have to go back to working in the office 5 days a week (i.e., in the next month or two).
Good for you.
The pandemic quarantine has actually been helpful for me. I've been happier working at home & being quarantined than I was before the shut down. So I know that even if retirement is literally being locked in my house every day, it will still be better than working!
As long as giving up your paycheck isn't an issue there doesn't sound like there will be a problem.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by quantAndHold »

If you do software engineering, a number of defense contractors allow part time work, provide health insurance if you work so many hours, and prorate things like PTO. You usually have to work full time for a year or so before you switch to part time.

Will they offer that in 20 years? Nobody has any idea.

Personally, I thought the idea of FIRE was to not need to work, and if I wanted to work, I’d just call it working, not retirement. Personally, the things I’ve found most satisfying in early retirement don’t pay anything (or at least not much). But in the big picture, we all decide what “retirement” means for ourselves.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by quantAndHold »

mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 am The pandemic quarantine has actually been helpful for me. I've been happier working at home & being quarantined than I was before the shut down. So I know that even if retirement is literally being locked in my house every day, it will still be better than working!
Interesting. After being happily FIREd for 3 years, being locked in my house was a complete gut punch, to the point where I’m considering going back to work for a year or two, until conditions change and I can resume my previous life.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

CyclingDuo wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 7:08 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
Not to mention that tenure track usually takes 7 years to achieve (six year process with year 7 being your first year of tenure). You could always teach at the level of no rank, or lecturer, or adjunct in your area of expertise. Throw in teaching summer classes if you want an extra $5-$10K.

The rank of full professor is the top promotional level in academic teaching. The average tenured professor salary at this level is $141,476. You'll need a track record of success to earn this prestigious distinction.

https://work.chron.com/salary-tenure-tr ... -7796.html

Image
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... n-and-more
Adjunct is a terrible job, they pay is terrible and no healthcare, so that kind of defeats the point of using it for baristaFIRE. Lecturer might be an interesting middle ground, as long as it gets access to healthcare.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by tibbitts »

TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am
mlipps wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:38 am This question gets posted over & over (search Barista FIRE to find other threads) and I think it's so patronizing. Don't you think if there were low stress, mentally stimulating, part time jobs that provided health insurance that the hundreds of thousands of unemployed people in our country would be flocking to them in droves?? It's a ridiculous and romanticized question that shows a person who has done a lifetime of well paid white collar work and is disconnected from the reality of millions of other Americans.
Provided those hundreds of thousands of unemployed people had the skills required for those positions. Your assumption that anyone can do any job is also kind of patronizing. Spent a lot of time over the past couple decades trying to help people understand it is not just about having skills, it is about being able to use those skills to provide value. I'd say roughly 85% of the people I have come in contact with either never get it or don't understand how to apply those lessons.
Almost no matter the skill level, the point is that there are extremely few opportunties - not nearly enough for your 15% of the people who would supposedly qualify for them. The problem is that for many of the skilled group you reference, part of their "providing value" is their capability and willingness to work long, hard hours under stressful conditions. Often, that same skilled person doing 50% of the work may yield 10% of the value.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mak1277 »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:46 am
mak1277 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 am The pandemic quarantine has actually been helpful for me. I've been happier working at home & being quarantined than I was before the shut down. So I know that even if retirement is literally being locked in my house every day, it will still be better than working!
Interesting. After being happily FIREd for 3 years, being locked in my house was a complete gut punch, to the point where I’m considering going back to work for a year or two, until conditions change and I can resume my previous life.
I generally don't enjoy being around people. Being forced to stay away from them is kind of a dream for me :-)

I do miss going out to eat and the movies, things like that. But nearly all my hobbies are solo activities or just with my immediate family.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by CyclingDuo »

fatFIRE wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 11:08 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 7:08 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
Not to mention that tenure track usually takes 7 years to achieve (six year process with year 7 being your first year of tenure). You could always teach at the level of no rank, or lecturer, or adjunct in your area of expertise. Throw in teaching summer classes if you want an extra $5-$10K.

The rank of full professor is the top promotional level in academic teaching. The average tenured professor salary at this level is $141,476. You'll need a track record of success to earn this prestigious distinction.

https://work.chron.com/salary-tenure-tr ... -7796.html

Image
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... n-and-more
Adjunct is a terrible job, they pay is terrible and no healthcare, so that kind of defeats the point of using it for baristaFIRE. Lecturer might be an interesting middle ground, as long as it gets access to healthcare.
I guess it depends on the particular school and area of speciality as some institutions actually hire full time adjuncts that include full benefits under speciality contracts - usually one year at a time, or three years at a time, etc... .

Regardless, you didn't mention if such a time ever came for you whether you would be seeking a part-time or full-time position for teaching at the college/university level. It's a long ways off for you, but utilizing the ACA right now - keeping your nest egg in tax advantaged accounts so that the taxable income stays low enough to meet the threshold, but cover your expenses is one way to get the nearly free health insurance for a part-timer as an adjunct. Who knows what will be around years down the road?
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by ChowYunPhat »

Sandtrap wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:51 pm Buy a 12 unit apartment building
Or better yet, 32 units.
Self manage and cut the lawns yourself.
That’ll keep you busy.😬

j🌺
Sandtrap, you're my kind of guy.

To the OP. If you're needing money then recommend working longer. If you're needing activities, volunteer work is extremely fulfilling. You may be tempted to think this is low value work, and you will not get a lot of respect depending on the role. But your skills could help a number of non-profits stretch their IT dollars...there is a big need for this and it's very rewarding. Think of things like helping an organization decrease their managed services agreement, or upgrade network environment, or help source temp / permanent contract labor, or conducting classes.

A lot of volunteer work does not happen through wanted ads. Nor will you will get an invitation and people begging you. However, if you make yourself known to a cause that you can get behind, you will be surprised at the response. Put yourself out there.

And by the way, congrats on the FIRE trajectory :sharebeer .
A wise man and his money are friends forever...
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by cherijoh »

marcopolo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:14 pm
cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
If a primary reason one is looking for job is benefits (see Hammond's post that I quoted) most people mean subsided benefits.

Just look at the number of posts about how "expensive" COBRA coverage is. A company can charge only a small premium (2% I believe) for administration on COBRA, so it is the sticker shock of losing the subsidy that makes it appear expensive.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by marcopolo »

cherijoh wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:26 pm
marcopolo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:14 pm
cherijoh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:29 pm
hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
If benefits are avaible for part-time work (rare in this day and age I've heard), I think you may need to work at least 30 hours/week for the employer to subsidize them at anything close to the same rate as a full time employee. You may be able to opt-in to benefits (and pay 100% of the cost yourself) if you want fewer hours per week.
If one is "FATFire", why would they need subsidized benefits?

Budgeting to pay for those items seems like it would be a pre-requisites.
If a primary reason one is looking for job is benefits (see Hammond's post that I quoted) most people mean subsided benefits.

Just look at the number of posts about how "expensive" COBRA coverage is. A company can charge only a small premium (2% I believe) for administration on COBRA, so it is the sticker shock of losing the subsidy that makes it appear expensive.
Agree health insurance is expensive.

But, this discussion was about FatFIRE, which I think is supposed to mean being in great financial shape to retire early with a very nice style of living. If one has to work to get subsidized health insurance, I am just having a hard time seeing how they could be ready for FatFIRE.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:34 pm
Agree health insurance is expensive.

But, this discussion was about FatFIRE, which I think is supposed to mean being in great financial shape to retire early with a very nice style of living. If one has to work to get subsidized health insurance, I am just having a hard time seeing how they could be ready for FatFIRE.
We will differ on definitions on how fat is FatFIRE. I will admit I am biased... paying for insurance is like a second mortgage. I see no value in it if it can be avoided.

If I'm retiring at $100k/yr (probably on the lean side of FatFIRE), would I be happy paying $20k/yr for healthcare? It's just absurd. Even if I am "rich" in retirement, I can think of better ways to spend my money.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by marcopolo »

fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:54 pm
marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:34 pm
Agree health insurance is expensive.

But, this discussion was about FatFIRE, which I think is supposed to mean being in great financial shape to retire early with a very nice style of living. If one has to work to get subsidized health insurance, I am just having a hard time seeing how they could be ready for FatFIRE.
We will differ on definitions on how fat is FatFIRE. I will admit I am biased... paying for insurance is like a second mortgage. I see no value in it if it can be avoided.

If I'm retiring at $100k/yr (probably on the lean side of FatFIRE), would I be happy paying $20k/yr for healthcare? It's just absurd. Even if I am "rich" in retirement, I can think of better ways to spend my money.

So, what do you propose to do? If you keep working so your employer pays for it, do you still consider yourself "FatFired"?
What if someone did in fact still have a mortgage, so is still working so they can pay for it, are they still "FatFired"?

What other things can someone still need a job in order to pay for it and still consider themselves "FatFired"?

At some point words should have some meaning, right?

As i said in a previous response to you:

"Really don't want to get into a debate about what you call retirement, but for my self, I would not consider myself retired if i had to find a job to pay for health insurance. If that were the case, I would have just kept working in my previous career which I enjoyed."
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:03 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:54 pm
marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:34 pm
Agree health insurance is expensive.

But, this discussion was about FatFIRE, which I think is supposed to mean being in great financial shape to retire early with a very nice style of living. If one has to work to get subsidized health insurance, I am just having a hard time seeing how they could be ready for FatFIRE.
We will differ on definitions on how fat is FatFIRE. I will admit I am biased... paying for insurance is like a second mortgage. I see no value in it if it can be avoided.

If I'm retiring at $100k/yr (probably on the lean side of FatFIRE), would I be happy paying $20k/yr for healthcare? It's just absurd. Even if I am "rich" in retirement, I can think of better ways to spend my money.

So, what do you propose to do? If you keep working so your employer pays for it, do you still consider yourself "FatFired"?
What if someone did in fact still have a mortgage, so is still working so they can pay for it, are they still "FatFired"?

What other things can someone still need a job in order to pay for it and still consider themselves "FatFired"?

At some point words should have some meaning, right?
The classification of FIRE is based on how much income you can get at retirement, it does not has any bearing on how you spend the money. A key point here, is just because you can afford it (like paying full-price for health insurance), it doesn't mean that you should.

I'm still at least a few decades away from fatFIRE, so I have not thought about this in details and besides things change.... but right now, if I could fatFIRE
- My first option is to keep working, I actually like my job and don't see myself stopping. The major difference is that I no longer have to work to save for my future self. I can be like every fiscally irresponsible American and spend every single cent of my paycheck.
- If for whatever reason I can't work 40hrs/wk, then I would look for a part-time job that pays for health insurance. Just because you can draw $100k/yr, doesn't mean you must spend it on health insurance.
- I know people work to control their income level at retirement to qualify for ACA subsidies, so that's another possible route too. Cheaper healthcare is at least better than full-priced healthcare.
- Alternatively move to Canada a few years before retiring to get free healthcare there. Obviously this will need to be planned in advance.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by reln »

sailaway wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:03 am
"He is going to retire as soon as he figures out his retirement job"
😂
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by livesoft »

Part-time escort.

Stay-at-home parent.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by tibbitts »

fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:14 pm
marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:03 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:54 pm
marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:34 pm
Agree health insurance is expensive.

But, this discussion was about FatFIRE, which I think is supposed to mean being in great financial shape to retire early with a very nice style of living. If one has to work to get subsidized health insurance, I am just having a hard time seeing how they could be ready for FatFIRE.
We will differ on definitions on how fat is FatFIRE. I will admit I am biased... paying for insurance is like a second mortgage. I see no value in it if it can be avoided.

If I'm retiring at $100k/yr (probably on the lean side of FatFIRE), would I be happy paying $20k/yr for healthcare? It's just absurd. Even if I am "rich" in retirement, I can think of better ways to spend my money.

So, what do you propose to do? If you keep working so your employer pays for it, do you still consider yourself "FatFired"?
What if someone did in fact still have a mortgage, so is still working so they can pay for it, are they still "FatFired"?

What other things can someone still need a job in order to pay for it and still consider themselves "FatFired"?

At some point words should have some meaning, right?
The classification of FIRE is based on how much income you can get at retirement, it does not has any bearing on how you spend the money. A key point here, is just because you can afford it (like paying full-price for health insurance), it doesn't mean that you should.

I'm still at least a few decades away from fatFIRE, so I have not thought about this in details and besides things change.... but right now, if I could fatFIRE
- My first option is to keep working, I actually like my job and don't see myself stopping. The major difference is that I no longer have to work to save for my future self. I can be like every fiscally irresponsible American and spend every single cent of my paycheck.
- If for whatever reason I can't work 40hrs/wk, then I would look for a part-time job that pays for health insurance. Just because you can draw $100k/yr, doesn't mean you must spend it on health insurance.
- I know people work to control their income level at retirement to qualify for ACA subsidies, so that's another possible route too. Cheaper healthcare is at least better than full-priced healthcare.
- Alternatively move to Canada a few years before retiring to get free healthcare there. Obviously this will need to be planned in advance.
I think by definition it's almost impossible to be a "few decades away" from fatFIRE.

I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by jebmke »

tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
They used to have an "investor visa" that wasn't that onerous (less than $1 million I think) but I think it was either eliminated or made much more expensive around 2013.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by 7eight9 »

jebmke wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:52 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
They used to have an "investor visa" that wasn't that onerous (less than $1 million I think) but I think it was either eliminated or made much more expensive around 2013.
Malaysia is always an option under the MM2H visa program. Health insurance is inexpensive as is healthcare in general.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by tibbitts »

jebmke wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:52 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
They used to have an "investor visa" that wasn't that onerous (less than $1 million I think) but I think it was either eliminated or made much more expensive around 2013.
I don't know a lot about it but I believe it more or less required opening a small business in Canada - I don't think your Total Stock fund (even International) would help qualify. So basically most people would be putting their FIRE at considerable risk.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm
I think by definition it's almost impossible to be a "few decades away" from fatFIRE.

I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
Since the end date is age 55, it's possible depending on how young you are.

One plan is to move to a megacorp that has Canadian office, and after a few years, get a transfer to Canada.
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