Simple jobs during FATFire?

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TravelGeek
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TravelGeek »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:51 pm
Because you don't want to waste money on insane healthcare expenses, which is like a 2nd mortgage? We're talking fatFIRE not obeseFIRE, which is probably where you have so much money you can just throw it on the floor and walk away.
We are FIREd. We are paying for our ACA coverage (without subsidies this year) to insure us against insane healthcare expenses. If your FAT Fire budget doesn’t include healthcare insurance cost (perhaps with subsidies) and you need a retirement job to provide insurance, I don’t think you are FAT-fired. You just changed careers. Your definition may vary.
marcopolo wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:03 pm
"Really don't want to get into a debate about what you call retirement, but for my self, I would not consider myself retired if i had to find a job to pay for health insurance. If that were the case, I would have just kept working in my previous career which I enjoyed."
Exactly!
Normchad
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by Normchad »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
I agree with this 100%.

I wish all these folks all the best. I seriously suspect a lot of them will have to go back to work; and will have a rude awakening. A lot of these people seem to be SW devs. And there seems to be consensus among many if them that ageism is a real terrible thing in that arena. If both of those are true, good luck.

Life is just really hard. Seems that a lot of folks are taking risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from. It seems self inflicted.
the way
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by the way »

Normchad wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:22 pm I wish all these folks all the best. I seriously suspect a lot of them will have to go back to work; and will have a rude awakening. A lot of these people seem to be SW devs. And there seems to be consensus among many if them that ageism is a real terrible thing in that arena. If both of those are true, good luck.
Don't worry, they've planted plenty of Y2K-like bugs in their code which will make their obsolete skills very valuable in 20 years or so. :P

The FIRE/fatFire debate just seems like terminology creep. Everyone wants to label themselves Retired as a sign of success. The FIRE bloggers get a lot of hate for claiming they're retired when really their full time job is blogging. (My guess is lots of salaried people somehow count self-employment as retirement)
marcopolo
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by marcopolo »

Normchad wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:22 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
I agree with this 100%.

I wish all these folks all the best. I seriously suspect a lot of them will have to go back to work; and will have a rude awakening. A lot of these people seem to be SW devs. And there seems to be consensus among many if them that ageism is a real terrible thing in that arena. If both of those are true, good luck.

Life is just really hard. Seems that a lot of folks are taking risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from. It seems self inflicted.
it's just trading time for money, and vice-versa.
There are various risks, and they never go away.

Each person has to decide where the right trade-off is for themselves.

By the way, it really does not sound like you are wishing them all the best. It comes across as rooting for them to fail so you can say "I told you so".

You may not have meant it that way, but that is how it comes across to me as I read it.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

Normchad wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:22 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
I agree with this 100%.

I wish all these folks all the best. I seriously suspect a lot of them will have to go back to work; and will have a rude awakening. A lot of these people seem to be SW devs. And there seems to be consensus among many if them that ageism is a real terrible thing in that arena. If both of those are true, good luck.

Life is just really hard. Seems that a lot of folks are taking risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from. It seems self inflicted.
If you have done your research on SWR, the risk can be mitigated. FIRE is no different from early retirement, just that the money pot needs to last a few decades longer. And if ageism is prevalent in your line of work, all the more reason to FIRE to mitigate against that.

I do not know what 'self-inflicted risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from' is being mentioned here.

I have yet to see a proper FIRE plan fail. All 'failures' are because people are too optimistic in their projections or take on unnecessary expenses like having more kids and living in HCOL areas.

Also, the regular retire at 65 is fraught with even more risks. You can get laid off. There is ageism everywhere (maybe not as bad as other lines of work), but denying it doesn't exist is foolhardy. Technological advancement can land yourself obsolete (e.g. look at all the out of work coal miners). Hype cycles come and go... oil/petroleum sector was earning big bucks not too long ago, now it's on life support. For regular folks (no trust fund babies here), to be in an outperforming career path is probably not realistic to sustain for your entire career lifespan unless you are very lucky or very skilled/insightful or both. There will be times where everything is going great, there will be bad times. You have to take advantage of the good times because all good things will come to an end.

It's better to be able to have the financial capacity to retire early and choose not to use that option, than to fall short of your retirement plans because of external factors that may be beyond your control. Not planning to FIRE is just asking for a disaster waiting to happen, it seems that those who choose not to do so are the ones who are really having the 'self-inflicted risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from'.
Last edited by fatFIRE on Sat May 30, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Leemiller
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by Leemiller »

randomguy wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
I think being on a S&P 500 board and getting paid a couple hundred k for 10 days of meetings/year is a much better gig:) Odds are probably higher than getting to be a teaching prof with benefits...
A board seat or three is my plan.
afan
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by afan »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:10 am If you're FATFire, you shouldn't care about getting medical insurance from an employer because you should have enough funds to buy it yourself on the market.
Exactly. The whole idea of FATFIRE needing health insurance does not compute.
If you can afford to retire, then by definition you can afford to cover your insurance.
If you can FATFIRE, then your health insurance is such a minor expense that it does not even come up.

I don't know who would offer health insurance for the kind of work the OP suggests. Health insurance is expensive and employers offer it when the contribution of the job is high enough that it is worth paying for insurance on top of salary. Otherwise, they try to structure jobs as independent contractors with no benefits.
We do not hire anyone at 20 hours/week with benefits. That is pure IC work, you get paid cash and are responsible for all your own benefits.

Most of the jobs suggested here are more like unpaid volunteer work. Others are poorly paid part time. No one provides health insurance for jobs like that. The solution is to work longer, build up reserves to cover your health insurance from retirement until the start of Medicare.

In short, if you still need help covering health insurance then you are not ready to retire.
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afan
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by afan »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
That would be as an adjunct, paid per course they teach. The pay is terrible and there are no benefits.
One of the things professors give up when they retire is their tenure.

Some professors like to hang around after they retire, perhaps give an occasional lecture and go to seminars. They get paid nothing for this. Hardly a solution for the problem the OP raises.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
a_movable_life
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by a_movable_life »

TravelGeek wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:18 pm
- teaching your neighbors to operate their fancy new flying cars


(obviously, some are perhaps not completely serious suggestions)
My MD manager an owner of two practices got the new Jag SUV with all the features. He told me part of the buying process is a man comes to the home and shows how to use all the features of the car.

The obvious answer is some sort of business matchmaker, wheeler dealer who can pull of the suit with no tie look and get the open collar to look really good.
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willthrill81
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by willthrill81 »

afan wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:07 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
That would be as an adjunct, paid per course they teach. The pay is terrible and there are no benefits.
One of the things professors give up when they retire is their tenure.

Some professors like to hang around after they retire, perhaps give an occasional lecture and go to seminars. They get paid nothing for this. Hardly a solution for the problem the OP raises.
It's not uncommon for adjuncts to get paid only $3k-$5k per course that they teach, and you're correct that no benefits of any kind are generally offered unless possibly if the adjunct is teaching enough courses to be considered at least half-time. For the time required to provide at least reasonably good instruction in many courses, both in-class and out of class as well as mandatory training, orientations, office hours, etc., that will work out to about $13-$22/hr.
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canadianbacon
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by canadianbacon »

TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
Or they are comparing their potential satisfaction in that hypothetical situation with their actual satisfaction working 40+ hours per week.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

canadianbacon wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
Or they are comparing their potential satisfaction in that hypothetical situation with their actual satisfaction working 40+ hours per week.
Could be, I know my expectations for things often exceed the reality, which is what I was trying to say in the second half of the sentence.
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canadianbacon
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by canadianbacon »

hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
I think your only hope of something like this is to develop a sufficiently niche skill that you can negotiate a gig like that for yourself. They aren't growing on trees for people. Note that if you are not already that excited about your career, the kind of jobs you can find with that kind of leverage -- (edit: that you WANT to do) -- are going to be pretty limited.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
stoptothink
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by stoptothink »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am
afan wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:07 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
That would be as an adjunct, paid per course they teach. The pay is terrible and there are no benefits.
One of the things professors give up when they retire is their tenure.

Some professors like to hang around after they retire, perhaps give an occasional lecture and go to seminars. They get paid nothing for this. Hardly a solution for the problem the OP raises.
It's not uncommon for adjuncts to get paid only $3k-$5k per course that they teach, and you're correct that no benefits of any kind are generally offered unless possibly if the adjunct is teaching enough courses to be considered at least half-time. For the time required to provide at least reasonably good instruction in many courses, both in-class and out of class as well as mandatory training, orientations, office hours, etc., that will work out to about $13-$22/hr.
I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
sd323232
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sd323232 »

TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am
mlipps wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:38 am This question gets posted over & over (search Barista FIRE to find other threads) and I think it's so patronizing. Don't you think if there were low stress, mentally stimulating, part time jobs that provided health insurance that the hundreds of thousands of unemployed people in our country would be flocking to them in droves?? It's a ridiculous and romanticized question that shows a person who has done a lifetime of well paid white collar work and is disconnected from the reality of millions of other Americans.
Provided those hundreds of thousands of unemployed people had the skills required for those positions. Your assumption that anyone can do any job is also kind of patronizing. Spent a lot of time over the past couple decades trying to help people understand it is not just about having skills, it is about being able to use those skills to provide value. I'd say roughly 85% of the people I have come in contact with either never get it or don't understand how to apply those lessons.

TheTimeLord, what you said is 100% correct, i also tell people samething, but most people dont get it. It is like they live in different reality from us. Example, a smart young person gets degree in a non marketable major. Yes, person is smart and graduated with 4.0 GPA. He/she worked hard during college. But after graduation, noone is hiring him/her, and this person is surprised why noone is hiring. What to me seems so obvious, is a surprise to the this young person. They just dont understand supply/demand. To them as long as they follow their passion, they will do fine, and companies will come running to them to give them job. Well, real world does not care about passion, it cares about value you can provide, period. It is so simple, but majority of people do not understand it.
EddyB
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by EddyB »

TheTimeLord wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:33 am
canadianbacon wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
Or they are comparing their potential satisfaction in that hypothetical situation with their actual satisfaction working 40+ hours per week.
Could be, I know my expectations for things often exceed the reality, which is what I was trying to say in the second half of the sentence.
Including your expectation of the accuracy of universalizing your own experience?
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by TheTimeLord »

EddyB wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:43 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:33 am
canadianbacon wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
Or they are comparing their potential satisfaction in that hypothetical situation with their actual satisfaction working 40+ hours per week.
Could be, I know my expectations for things often exceed the reality, which is what I was trying to say in the second half of the sentence.
Including your expectation of the accuracy of universalizing your own experience?
We are all to one degree or another prisoner to our experiences and those of the people around us.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by CyclingDuo »

EddyB wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:08 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
CyclingDuo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:18 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 10:47 amAge 55 is like min-requirement to FIRE. Age 45 is like standard age from interacting with people in this community. Age 35 is gold standard.
So there is no worrying about joining any of the special clubs like regular FIRE, Lean FIRE, Fat FIRE, Barista FIRE, Coast FIRE, MoFIRE, Fart FIRE, etc... for our household.

We'll just have to retire.

Hey, at least it takes all the pressure off of having to have a blog... :mrgreen:
The acronym after all is Retire Early. Retirement age is 62-67 depending on when you draw SSN. So early has to be before 62. If it helps, I'll create a new category called lateFIRE (those who retire between 55-62). So now you're part of the club.
I’m pretty sure it’s FIRSEBNSETIABD (financially independent, retired somewhat early, but not so early that it’s a big deal). I see that a lot.
Gee, a couple more consonants and a vowel or two could almost qualify it as being a German word. 8-)

We'll just stick with retire since that gap between age 55 and what Social Security calls FRA of 66.x - 67 seems to be a void for any of us that are in it that doesn't qualify for the above listed terms.

:sharebeer


Although I do like some of the other ones that folks have come up with and might allow those in the gap between 55 - 67 to use on their acronym littered custom t-shirts...


• FIWO: Financial Independence, Work Optional. I believe this term was popularized by Our Next Life who wrote a book titled Work Optional.

• FIOR: Financial Independence, Optional Retirement. This is exactly the same idea as FIWO, but I’m not sure where this acronym originated from.

• FFLC: Fully Funded Lifestyle Change. This term was coined by Slowly Sipping Coffee.

* FINER: Stands for Financial Independence, Never Ever Retire.

* FIRE: Financially Independent, Recreational Employment.


https://www.drmcfrugal.com/rebranding-fire/
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stoptothink
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by stoptothink »

sd323232 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:42 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am
mlipps wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:38 am This question gets posted over & over (search Barista FIRE to find other threads) and I think it's so patronizing. Don't you think if there were low stress, mentally stimulating, part time jobs that provided health insurance that the hundreds of thousands of unemployed people in our country would be flocking to them in droves?? It's a ridiculous and romanticized question that shows a person who has done a lifetime of well paid white collar work and is disconnected from the reality of millions of other Americans.
Provided those hundreds of thousands of unemployed people had the skills required for those positions. Your assumption that anyone can do any job is also kind of patronizing. Spent a lot of time over the past couple decades trying to help people understand it is not just about having skills, it is about being able to use those skills to provide value. I'd say roughly 85% of the people I have come in contact with either never get it or don't understand how to apply those lessons.

TheTimeLord, what you said is 100% correct, i also tell people samething, but most people dont get it. It is like they live in different reality from us. Example, a smart young person gets degree in a non marketable major. Yes, person is smart and graduated with 4.0 GPA. He/she worked hard during college. But after graduation, noone is hiring him/her, and this person is surprised why noone is hiring. What to me seems so obvious, is a surprise to the this young person. They just dont understand supply/demand. To them as long as they follow their passion, they will do fine, and companies will come running to them to give them job. Well, real world does not care about passion, it cares about value you can provide, period. It is so simple, but majority of people do not understand it.
TimeLord's estimation that 85% of people don't understand that they have to bring value to an entity (to have a job, to move up, etc.) is probably low in my experience. Our current educational system is horrific at teaching this basic principal.
purpleKatz
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by purpleKatz »

OP-
Check out the defense industry. They frequently hire engineering contractors for short term (<1 year), part time work. Twenty hours a week is very common and a lot of contractors dictate the hours they work as long as it doesn't cause hardship to their program. The defense industry is cyclical of course, so you would also be the first to be laid off if funding stops. There are software engineering jobs associated with aeronautics if that's what you're interested in.

No benefits for contractors, but on the other hand the pay is 150%+ per hour what the full time employees get. Many people retire and then come back as contractors. However they're usually an easy hire since their expertise is known. Getting a foot in the door as an unknown contractor is a bit more difficult. Easier if you came in as a full time employees first.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by ScubaHogg »

hammond wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:33 am Me and SO should be on track to FATFire around 45-50. However, I don't want to just sit at home at this time.
In our 40s and 50s I would have worked 20+ years in software engineering and would have developed significant skills there to perhaps do something in that space.
We are currently in our early 30s.
I also have a passion for aviation and would like to somehow develop skills in my 30s (like getting a PPL) that I could potentially use later on in my 50s.

What are some good jobs/occupations during that time that require minimal time (say 20 hours) but yet provide the advantages of having a job, like health insurance, interactions with colleagues, mental stimulation etc.
I am thinking of something like teaching others flying, coding or some other job at the local aviation museum etc.
In 15-20 years there will likely be many more opportunities for various kinds of telecommuting than there are today, which means you'll just need to find someone somewhere in the world who values a skill you do possess. If you have a software engineering background and stay current I think finding something that roughly meets your criteria will not be difficult at all.

There's no money in teaching people to fly (I don't mean that literally, on a per hour basis you are unlikely to make hardly anything).
“Unexpected Returns dominate the Expected Returns” - Ken French
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

Although it's still too far, this thread has got me thinking about it.

It looks like an optimal way would be to spend your working years, is creating your own branding and reputation and then post-FIRE if you want to quit your day job, start our own business leveraging that branding and reputation in the same line of work, for example as a technical consultant or career coach.

This however will require concerted and intentional effort to build up in the years prior to FIRE.
sd323232
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sd323232 »

fatFIRE wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 12:57 pm Although it's still too far, this thread has got me thinking about it.

It looks like an optimal way would be to spend your working years, is creating your own branding and reputation and then post-FIRE if you want to quit your day job, start our own business leveraging that branding and reputation in the same line of work, for example as a technical consultant or career coach.

This however will require concerted and intentional effort to build up in the years prior to FIRE.
too much work, i think people overthink it, why not just VTSAX and chill? and get a cushy job at starbucks if really bored. 8-)
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gr7070
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 10:05 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:22 pm
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 10:18 am
sailaway wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:58 am
TheTimeLord wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:48 am To be honest I don't understand how 90+% of those who FIRE before 50 believe they are FI or can actually live the lifestyle to which they aspire. It just seems like most are headed for a hard landing later in life when there is little chance of recovery. In many ways it just seems like a different flavor of YOLO.
Are you saying that 90% of the under 50s retire projecting too high a withdrawal rate or that you can't understand how someone could be happy on say $50k a year?
I am saying that they are underestimating the issues that arise in the backside of life and overestimating their ability to be satisfied over the long term in a static financial frame dependent on uncertain returns.
I agree with this 100%.

I wish all these folks all the best. I seriously suspect a lot of them will have to go back to work; and will have a rude awakening. A lot of these people seem to be SW devs. And there seems to be consensus among many if them that ageism is a real terrible thing in that arena. If both of those are true, good luck.

Life is just really hard. Seems that a lot of folks are taking risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from. It seems self inflicted.
If you have done your research on SWR, the risk can be mitigated. FIRE is no different from early retirement, just that the money pot needs to last a few decades longer. And if ageism is prevalent in your line of work, all the more reason to FIRE to mitigate against that.

I do not know what 'self-inflicted risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from' is being mentioned here.

I have yet to see a proper FIRE plan fail. All 'failures' are because people are too optimistic in their projections or take on unnecessary expenses like having more kids and living in HCOL areas.

Also, the regular retire at 65 is fraught with even more risks. You can get laid off. There is ageism everywhere (maybe not as bad as other lines of work), but denying it doesn't exist is foolhardy. Technological advancement can land yourself obsolete (e.g. look at all the out of work coal miners). Hype cycles come and go... oil/petroleum sector was earning big bucks not too long ago, now it's on life support. For regular folks (no trust fund babies here), to be in an outperforming career path is probably not realistic to sustain for your entire career lifespan unless you are very lucky or very skilled/insightful or both. There will be times where everything is going great, there will be bad times. You have to take advantage of the good times because all good things will come to an end.

It's better to be able to have the financial capacity to retire early and choose not to use that option, than to fall short of your retirement plans because of external factors that may be beyond your control. Not planning to FIRE is just asking for a disaster waiting to happen, it seems that those who choose not to do so are the ones who are really having the 'self-inflicted risks that will be nearly impossible to recover from'.
I don't take any issues with your FIRE statements. Good on all those folks planning for FIRE! Hopefully I'll join them, though not sure how early one must retire to be considered FIREd.

The *need* to plan to RE I'm not necessarily on board with.

Not planning to *FI* is the true disaster. I'll give anyone props in this country for planning to FI, with or without the RE.

All those folks, even one's financially planning for retirement at 70 (that's not meant as derogatory), are decades better off than the vast majority.

As long as one has a plan for FI by 70something I'm on board with them.

If they did it by 45 that's wonderful! Hoping to join them one decade late...
Last edited by gr7070 on Sun May 31, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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willthrill81
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:30 am
afan wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:07 am
fatFIRE wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:41 pm Ok back to OP topic...

I've always thought that retiring as a professor (teaching not research) would be a nice job post FIRE. You get lots of flexibility, healthcare... pay is not good (but you don't care at that point). The trouble is getting a tenured teaching position when you have zero track record.
That would be as an adjunct, paid per course they teach. The pay is terrible and there are no benefits.
One of the things professors give up when they retire is their tenure.

Some professors like to hang around after they retire, perhaps give an occasional lecture and go to seminars. They get paid nothing for this. Hardly a solution for the problem the OP raises.
It's not uncommon for adjuncts to get paid only $3k-$5k per course that they teach, and you're correct that no benefits of any kind are generally offered unless possibly if the adjunct is teaching enough courses to be considered at least half-time. For the time required to provide at least reasonably good instruction in many courses, both in-class and out of class as well as mandatory training, orientations, office hours, etc., that will work out to about $13-$22/hr.
I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least. One of my professors from my years ago was once at an institution where two faculty in the same department were exchanging death threats.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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gr7070
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
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willthrill81
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by willthrill81 »

gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
sd323232
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sd323232 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
This is perfect prove that passion and dream job is just bunch of garbage. i tell that to every kid i meet. no matter what they think dream job and their passion is, it may not be when they actually start working it. poor kids go into 200K school loans in their dream universities chasing their dream majors only to realize it is not what they wanted when they actually have to wake up and go to work everyday. only most of the time it is too late, school loans are taken and have to be paid back.
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gr7070
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
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willthrill81
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by willthrill81 »

sd323232 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
This is perfect prove that passion and dream job is just bunch of garbage. i tell that to every kid i meet. no matter what they think dream job and their passion is, it may not be when they actually start working it. poor kids go into 200K school loans in their dream universities chasing their dream majors only to realize it is not what they wanted when they actually have to wake up and go to work everyday. only most of the time it is too late, school loans are taken and have to be paid back.
IIRC, recent research has shown that passion tends to follow experience and expertise in a particular line of work, not precede it. And yes, it can be very difficult to anticipate how much you will actually enjoy a particular line of work. When I was an undergraduate, I never considered teaching at all as a career path because I thought that I would hate it. Yet I actually enjoy it very much now. By contrast, I had a nephew and niece go into different fields pertaining to healthcare, and they both hated the work. One of the few activities I'm aware of that may be able to help combat this is to do an in-depth interview with someone who has worked in the career you're interested in for a long while to find out what they like, dislike, etc., still keeping in mind that they may love it and you might loathe it.
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control.
Bingo. I don't know of anyone, even those who are FI and pursuing something that they are very passionate about, who loves every aspect of their work. Maybe some such person is out there, but for most people, there is good and bad about any type of work.
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pmI'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
I certainly agree that the stress involved in such situation is likely to be much less if you're FI. And leveraging your ability to walk away whenever you want can help to prevent others from trying to walk all over you. But even then, if it's known that you're only working 'for fun', that could cause issues too.

No easy answers here.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by ram »

My employer subsidizes my health insurance to the extent of 16000/year.

For somebody who wants to work 20 hrs/year x 44 weeks = 880 hours/ yr.

16000/ 880 = $18/hour in health insurance cost.

The employee will need to have some significant qualifications which the employer desperately needs to justify that much hourly spend on employee health insurance.

My employer does this for physicians but not for employees lower down the totem pole.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by almostretired1965 »

Watty wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 pm I know two IT workers who became school bus drivers after being laid off in their 50s.

In normal times at least around here they are always looking for school bus drivers since it does not pay enough for someone who needs full time work.

It did not pay a lot but it comes with benefits and they got summers and school holidays off. One downside was that it was a split shift where they worked some hours in the morning, then have the middle of the day off, there worked some more hours late in the afternoon. There are pros and cons to that.

This was before the the Affordable Care Act so even if you were doing financially fine you might need to take a job like that just to get health insurance.

I know someone else that got a job working in a school cafeteria for similar reasons.

I have also heard of people who did seasonal work like at ski resorts, national parks, beach towns, etc. Many of those jobs are minimum wage type jobs but they need skilled workers to and in the right situation they will pay well for them.
The most famous version of this story from my old neck of the woods is Adrian Dantley, Hall of Fame basketball player. He took a job as a crossing guard in the Montgomery County (MD) Public Schools system to get health insurance.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by tibbitts »

fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 7:21 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm
I think by definition it's almost impossible to be a "few decades away" from fatFIRE.

I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
Since the end date is age 55, it's possible depending on how young you are.

One plan is to move to a megacorp that has Canadian office, and after a few years, get a transfer to Canada.
The OP is already 30s.

While in theory it might be possible to get a job with a Megacorp and then transfer to Canada, from my own megacorp experience I would say the odds are extremely remote. You would have to first identify an appropriate megacorp that had use for someone with your specific skills in both the U.S. and Canada. And then actually get and keep a job long enough, and apply for the new Canadian job and get that too.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by stoptothink »

gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am I always thought I'd teach after I retired, until I did it. I was teaching a class per semester at local U until 2.5yrs ago, stopping had nothing to do with the terrible pay, it was the politics.
It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". Not only did I not have the time (because I had a 9-5 and a young family), but I didn't agree at all with what they were pushing. I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:40 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm

It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". Not only did I not have the time (because I had a 9-5 and a young family), but I didn't agree at all with what they were pushing. I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
While not a minority personally, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Though I enjoy teaching and some other aspects of my work, the ancillary nonsense (at best) is already beginning to take a toll, and the moment that I realistically can, I'll be out the door and won't look back.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
New Providence
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by New Providence »

JD2775 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:31 am FIRE, FATFire, Barista FIRE, Morbidly Obese FIRE.....

Don't people just "retire" anymore?
Indeed, it is very confusing that some aim for Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) but are concerned about not having a job after retiring. The point of FIRE is precisely not having to worry about having a job. Maybe FIRE is not for you if your aim is to work until late in life??? :confused
sd323232
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by sd323232 »

New Providence wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 4:43 pm
JD2775 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:31 am FIRE, FATFire, Barista FIRE, Morbidly Obese FIRE.....

Don't people just "retire" anymore?
Indeed, it is very confusing that some aim for Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) but are concerned about not having a job after retiring. The point of FIRE is precisely not having to worry about having a job. Maybe FIRE is not for you if your aim is to work until late in life??? :confused
FATFire has nothing to do with weight, its basically having tons of cash when you retire, LEANFire you basically living on minimum wage equivalent when you retire. FATFire is the best way to FIRE.
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by mouses »

FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:25 pm
Watty wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 pm I know two IT workers who became school bus drivers after being laid off in their 50s.
Along the same lines, teaching something like STEM courses in a Junior High or High School might fit the bill. Good hours, probably decent benefits and you work nine months out of the year with holidays and weekends off.
Teaching credentials are usually needed for that.
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gr7070
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:40 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:19 pm

It's sadly very typical of higher ed for the politics involved to be distracting for instructors at the very least.
What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". ...

I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
For starters, your anecdote appears to suggest you aren't FI, possibly far from it. Unsure about your uncle.

These two examples are perfect reasons for my argument, though! If one is FI who gives one iota about this pressure. Tell them no, unequivocally. Tell them not to ask again. Sleep well! I can't fathom this bothering me in the least???

What are they going to do? Fire you? 1. I suspect that's highly unlikely. 2. Ok. Buh-bye!

These are the exact kinds of politics that can be mitigated by FI!
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gr7070
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

mouses wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 pm
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:25 pm
Watty wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 pm I know two IT workers who became school bus drivers after being laid off in their 50s.
Along the same lines, teaching something like STEM courses in a Junior High or High School might fit the bill. Good hours, probably decent benefits and you work nine months out of the year with holidays and weekends off.
Teaching credentials are usually needed for that.
That very much depends upon where one lives. You might be surprised how little is required.

Heck, go teach at a private school that have no legal retirement. ; )

I do question the good hours statement of the other poster quoted.

And the states I'm familiar with it is absolutely not 9 months working. It's closer to 10. Additionally most corporate employees I know get more PTO than teachers get during the school year, including their holidays.

The fewer days worked of a teacher is often exaggerated, as that quoted post does. It certainly is fewer days, but it's not 3 months plus huge days off for holidays.
Normchad
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by Normchad »

Here is a fellow that is certainly qualified for FatFIRE, but still working, giving back the community. Long time NBA pro, and all around good guy, Adrian Dantley.

This should fit the bill in terms of being a "Simple Job" that somebody who is FatFire has.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rel ... -his-days/
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FIREchief
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by FIREchief »

gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:07 pm
mouses wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 pm
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:25 pm
Watty wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 pm I know two IT workers who became school bus drivers after being laid off in their 50s.
Along the same lines, teaching something like STEM courses in a Junior High or High School might fit the bill. Good hours, probably decent benefits and you work nine months out of the year with holidays and weekends off.
Teaching credentials are usually needed for that.
That very much depends upon where one lives. You might be surprised how little is required.

Heck, go teach at a private school that have no legal retirement. ; )

I do question the good hours statement of the other poster quoted.

And the states I'm familiar with it is absolutely not 9 months working. It's closer to 10. Additionally most corporate employees I know get more PTO than teachers get during the school year, including their holidays.

The fewer days worked of a teacher is often exaggerated, as that quoted post does. It certainly is fewer days, but it's not 3 months plus huge days off for holidays.
Okay. Peace. It was just a suggestion. 8-)
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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FIREchief
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by FIREchief »

mouses wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 pm
FIREchief wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:25 pm
Watty wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 12:01 pm I know two IT workers who became school bus drivers after being laid off in their 50s.
Along the same lines, teaching something like STEM courses in a Junior High or High School might fit the bill. Good hours, probably decent benefits and you work nine months out of the year with holidays and weekends off.
Teaching credentials are usually needed for that.
In my state, it is my understanding that somebody with a STEM degree can easily obtain teaching credentials.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

New Providence wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 4:43 pm
JD2775 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:31 am FIRE, FATFire, Barista FIRE, Morbidly Obese FIRE.....

Don't people just "retire" anymore?
Indeed, it is very confusing that some aim for Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) but are concerned about not having a job after retiring. The point of FIRE is precisely not having to worry about having a job. Maybe FIRE is not for you if your aim is to work until late in life??? :confused
Many of us have assumptions in our discussions that admittedly should probably be clarified and brought up early. This is quite common in the FIRE community. It's a rabbit hole that many discussions eventually go to.

The biggest split in the FIRE camp and from the posts here, is that some of us like myself see it as FIre. We are more concerned with FI than to actually retire early. For myself, I actually don't plan to quit my job after I reach FI. FI simply gives you options... an option to take a break, an option to walk away, an option not not play politics... FI seekers are looking for options and financial power, not to retire. Then, there is the other camp which admittedly is probably the larger one popularized by those FIRE bloggers. These are the fiRE people, whose main goal is to reach FI so that they can quit their jobs entirely. These are the ones who are unhappy and want out of their day jobs. I will agree with the criticisms that many of these fiRE people are simply switching from a W-2 job they hate to freelance and small-business but still insist on calling it retirement.
fatFIRE
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Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by fatFIRE »

tibbitts wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:12 pm
fatFIRE wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 7:21 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:48 pm
I think by definition it's almost impossible to be a "few decades away" from fatFIRE.

I assume you realize the difficulty of "moving to Canada" before you retire: namely, finding a new job in Canada. Canada is aware of people moving there for healthcare reasons and isn't going to welcome just anybody with open arms.
Since the end date is age 55, it's possible depending on how young you are.

One plan is to move to a megacorp that has Canadian office, and after a few years, get a transfer to Canada.
The OP is already 30s.

While in theory it might be possible to get a job with a Megacorp and then transfer to Canada, from my own megacorp experience I would say the odds are extremely remote. You would have to first identify an appropriate megacorp that had use for someone with your specific skills in both the U.S. and Canada. And then actually get and keep a job long enough, and apply for the new Canadian job and get that too.
It's rare, but I'm not sure if I would call it extremely remote. Obviously in the middle of your career, you need to move to a megacorp that has Canadian offices, preferably substantial Canadian presence. My pitch would be when I'm in my 40s or 50s, to basically bring my experience over there, and bring up that satellite office up to speed.

If necessary, one may also consider "downgrading" company so that you get hired by a megacorp that needs you more than you need them, so that you have 'superstar' status, and that gives you leverage in such discussions.
stoptothink
Posts: 8317
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by stoptothink »

gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:40 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 1:39 pm

What I don't understand is why let those politics affect you and your teaching. You're FI! You have FU money.

Do your thing; do it well and kindly, but do you.
The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". ...

I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
For starters, your anecdote appears to suggest you aren't FI, possibly far from it. Unsure about your uncle.

These two examples are perfect reasons for my argument, though! If one is FI who gives one iota about this pressure. Tell them no, unequivocally. Tell them not to ask again. Sleep well! I can't fathom this bothering me in the least???

What are they going to do? Fire you? 1. I suspect that's highly unlikely. 2. Ok. Buh-bye!

These are the exact kinds of politics that can be mitigated by FI!
Huh? I was referring to the idea that teaching was once my FIRE plan, but after doing it I absolutely wouldn't. For those with a similar plan, it is likely academia will be significantly different than they expected. FWIW, I am 39 and the wife (34) and I could likely call it quits today. My uncle is a super successful business owner who is still working in his early 50's solely to stay busy.
rockstar
Posts: 738
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:51 pm

Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by rockstar »

You have the opportunity to take jobs that you like that don't pay as much. If the job your transitioning to isn't more fun than your current job, then it really doesn't make sense to take a pay cut.

I would probably want to work in a National Park.
wootwoot
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by wootwoot »

OP greeter at Walmart or get a job at Home Depot.
User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1464
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by gr7070 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:24 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:40 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 pm

The problem is that it may be unavoidable for such politics to not affect you and your teaching. They can impact what courses you teach, when you teach, what you have to do in the classroom, etc. The fact that an FI person is not dependent on the work for money certainly helps, but ask volunteers in general whether they experience zero stress from their efforts.
It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". ...

I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
For starters, your anecdote appears to suggest you aren't FI, possibly far from it. Unsure about your uncle.

These two examples are perfect reasons for my argument, though! If one is FI who gives one iota about this pressure. Tell them no, unequivocally. Tell them not to ask again. Sleep well! I can't fathom this bothering me in the least???

What are they going to do? Fire you? 1. I suspect that's highly unlikely. 2. Ok. Buh-bye!

These are the exact kinds of politics that can be mitigated by FI!
Huh? I was referring to the idea that teaching was once my FIRE plan, but after doing it I absolutely wouldn't. For those with a similar plan, it is likely academia will be significantly different than they expected. FWIW, I am 39 and the wife (34) and I could likely call it quits today. My uncle is a super successful business owner who is still working in his early 50's solely to stay busy.
That's awesome. Please ignore that FI comment of mine.

Those anecdotes to sit on some voluntary committee are still the perfect example of what FI should help with. Tell them no and to leave you alone. Heck even if they continue to bug for eternity I can shrug that annoyance off with no impact to me.
tibbitts
Posts: 11895
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Simple jobs during FATFire?

Post by tibbitts »

gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:52 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:24 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:58 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:40 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:30 pm

It's still a job. There will always be some stress, some level of oversight, some things out of ones control. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But one who is FI certainly has some advantages, and should use that advantage to better their working experience.

This is coming from the spouse of a multi-decades teacher and I've also lectured for a massive, highly-respected yet political (aren't they all?) state flagship university. I'm not completely in the dark.
In my case, as a minority, I was CONSTANTLY hounded to sit on various "diversity boards". ...

I have an uncle who had been a professor at the other U across town for over a decade, who quit last year for pretty much the same reason.
For starters, your anecdote appears to suggest you aren't FI, possibly far from it. Unsure about your uncle.

These two examples are perfect reasons for my argument, though! If one is FI who gives one iota about this pressure. Tell them no, unequivocally. Tell them not to ask again. Sleep well! I can't fathom this bothering me in the least???

What are they going to do? Fire you? 1. I suspect that's highly unlikely. 2. Ok. Buh-bye!

These are the exact kinds of politics that can be mitigated by FI!
Huh? I was referring to the idea that teaching was once my FIRE plan, but after doing it I absolutely wouldn't. For those with a similar plan, it is likely academia will be significantly different than they expected. FWIW, I am 39 and the wife (34) and I could likely call it quits today. My uncle is a super successful business owner who is still working in his early 50's solely to stay busy.
That's awesome. Please ignore that FI comment of mine.

Those anecdotes to sit on some voluntary committee are still the perfect example of what FI should help with. Tell them no and to leave you alone. Heck even if they continue to bug for eternity I can shrug that annoyance off with no impact to me.
You are misunderstanding the nature of these job. There aren't an infinite number of institutions where most of us live. And even today most instructor hires are done in-person and usually local people are hired. When you work as an adjunct you have to get hired for every class, every semester or quarter, and the hiring process normally has to go fairly high up the food chain at your instituation every time. If you get the wrong person angry at you for not being cooperative, you're not going to be hired again. It doesn't matter if people in your field or your peers/supervisors think you walk on water, it won't matter. So if you enjoy most of the work, sometimes you have to put up with the parts you don't enjoy, just like every other job. Sure you can walk away and still pay your rent, but almost never is there an option to just announce that you'll only do the part of the job you feel like doing and nothing else.

It's the same problem I try to explain to people who say they want to work at Lowes or wherever they have some interest/knowledge: the first time some 18-year-old starts ordering you around, all of a sudden it isn't fun anymore. The fact that you can walk out and still pay your expenses isn't going to change the fact that you're not going to have a job that you seemingly enjoyed some aspects of. And incidentally this is the same with all the wannabe financial advisers we have here on Bogleheads: everybody would like to sit behind a desk on their own schedule and have investing newbies walk through the door, eager to soak up their enthusiasm for the 3-fund or whatever, but it just doesn't work that way.
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