The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

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btq96r
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by btq96r »

At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
almostretired1965
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by almostretired1965 »

My condolences as well, but as others have noted, OP is probably in better shape than 90% of the households in his situation (late 50s facing imminent layoff). I will say that I was in a similar position a couple of years ago, when a series of lifestyle decisions we made came back to haunt me when I was laid off after the company I worked for lost the government contract that I was on. But unlike him, I had never even come close to losing a job before and frankly took it rather badly from an emotional point of view. (Financially we had no worries.) Turned out for the best anyway since I was, a year later, able to secure a much more rewarding opportunity in another part of the country.

The key difference right now is the pandemic. It is not clear at the moment when the economy will pick up again. Even without that, looking for a new job in your late 50s when you are out of work is just not a good place to be. With 25% unemployment, ............ Good thing he's prepared!
cherijoh
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by cherijoh »

KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.
...

My question is

1) Is it really worthwhile for me to continue working? I worked in the IT area. If I want to stay in this area, I have to study 10 to 20 hours per week just to keep up with the latest technology.

2) If I do contract work, how much should I get paid before it is worthwhile for me to work?

A) I only plan to work 20 hours per week. Between unemployment and the $600 per week, I will get about $900 per week. Unless I am paid at $90 per hour or higher, it may not be worthwhile for me to work

3) Any other comment/feedback as to how do you decide whether you should continue working or just retire.

KlangFool
So sorry to hear the news. But of all the regular posters you are undoubtedly one of the better prepared ones because I know from your past posts that you didn't buy a super expensive house and have kept fixed expenses low relative to your cost of living area.

Now is a really bad time to be looking for a job IMO just because of the upheaval caused by Covid. However, I don't know if they have waived the normal requirement to job hunt while collecting unemployment (due to COVID), so you may need to put some effort into it anyway.

Do you have a specalty that is in demand? That would probably make it easier to do part-time consulting work. Or perhaps short term-contract work, where you work 40 hrs/wk but only work a couple of months at a time. I can see some areas of IT translating to this pay model better than others.

I had a friend who was laid off in Nov 2018 and she was convinced that she would go back to work "after the holidays". I caught up with her in the Jan- Feb 2019 time frame and she said she was still "considering her options" . The next time I talked to her she was no longer looking for a job and considered herself retired. She was 58 when she was laid off and she simply had it stuck in her head that she needed to work "a few more years". (She has a "Financial Advisor" and he had been telling her for several years she was good to retire). She just wasn't mentally prepared. Now she wonders why she was even considering going back to work.

I retired in April 2018 voluntarily because of a difficult boss situation. I had considered retiring several years earlier and doing some consulting, but by the time I actally retired I was ready to be fully retired. I have not regretted my decision. I wonder if you, like my friend, just aren't mentally ready to retire because it wasn't YOUR decision to stop working.

Do you know anyone in the IT field (former coworkers perhaps) who semi-retired and started doing contract work? It might be a good idea to do some networking and informational interviewing with people who took that route. That could help you flesh out whether it makes sense to try and continue to work.

I think with your frugal ways you can definitely afford to retire. Lots of people do it on less.

Good Luck!
cherijoh
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by cherijoh »

ram wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 7:22 pm Our healthcare group has multiple hospitals, some acquired recently. Some of these hospitals use old technology. It has been announced that all hospitals will be on brand new technology from 2023.
In the meanwhile we have retained some wise old men to keep the old technology functioning. The young hotshots do not know these old platforms.

Could there be such an opportunity for you?
I had a friend who retired from IT and discovered that there was a shortage of COBOL programmers out there - especially those familiar with banking systems. Except at the peak of the Great Recession, she had all the contract work she could handle. :happy
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

cherijoh wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:21 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.
...

My question is

1) Is it really worthwhile for me to continue working? I worked in the IT area. If I want to stay in this area, I have to study 10 to 20 hours per week just to keep up with the latest technology.

2) If I do contract work, how much should I get paid before it is worthwhile for me to work?

A) I only plan to work 20 hours per week. Between unemployment and the $600 per week, I will get about $900 per week. Unless I am paid at $90 per hour or higher, it may not be worthwhile for me to work

3) Any other comment/feedback as to how do you decide whether you should continue working or just retire.

KlangFool
So sorry to hear the news. But of all the regular posters you are undoubtedly one of the better prepared ones because I know from your past posts that you didn't buy a super expensive house and have kept fixed expenses low relative to your cost of living area.

Now is a really bad time to be looking for a job IMO just because of the upheaval caused by Covid. However, I don't know if they have waived the normal requirement to job hunt while collecting unemployment (due to COVID), so you may need to put some effort into it anyway.
cherijoh,

1) As per my understanding, in Virginia, they had waived the normal requirement.

2) In my specific area, they are hiring. But, the supply is there too. So, it is not a given that I can get a job/contract offer.

3) Yes, there is a possibility of remote contract work. And, I have the certification for that.

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
phantom0308
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by phantom0308 »

What specific area of IT do you work in? Or is that information too personal? Just curious, I’ve been a software dev and architect and can appreciate the amount of time required to stay up to date, especially in fields like deep learning where new papers are coming out weekly with important developments. It can be exhausting and exciting at the same time.
blahblahsunshine
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by blahblahsunshine »

Sorry to hear your are getting laid off. As to returning to work, I think it really comes down to what you want to do with your time. As so many have pointed out your numbers are workable. I don't know the demographics and geography of your reality so I don't know how much sense it makes trying to return to work now anyway. Guess that should factor into your thinking too.

FWIW we (SO and I) are getting ready to unplug early-mid 50's here in a couple weeks of our own volition; ironically I would love a package...but it never works out that you get what you want.

It is sort of unnerving in that the economy isn't going gangbusters, but I am reminding that we have many years of investment cash squirreled away...and it was built up over many years...the net net being you can take your time deciding what to do. There isn't some 'urgent action required' thing happening where you have to get in gear tomorrow, next week, or next month.

best
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tooluser
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by tooluser »

KlangFool wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 7:17 pm
btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
Consider going the other way then. You have the experience to hold the gravitas for a broader role. It's totally up to you though. No need to reply here. There are downsides to every choice. Make sure you are not doing "single balance sheet accounting" (only looking at assets or at liabilities).
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HomerJ
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by HomerJ »

I think you are hurting yourself with these self-defeating thoughts that you can only do high-level architect work. Or maybe that's true, and you've been out of the trenches too long, and can no longer do actual day-to-day work.

In the Washington D.C. area, there should be plenty of high-paying normal IT network jobs. Not helpdesk jobs... Middle-to-senior network positions.

But it sounds like you don't want those kind of jobs.

I wish you the best, You probably should just retire. You have enough money, and you've earned your retirement.
Last edited by HomerJ on Sun May 24, 2020 12:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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BeneIRA
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by BeneIRA »

KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA
These two items are what stuck out to me. I read three or so pages of this thread and saw a couple of people mention it as well, but these things do not square.

If you are being offered a year of subsidized medical insurance, I am assuming these are at the rates you were paying as an active employee and you will be direct billed for these benefits. This sounds like your company will give you a "Leave with Pay" or "Unpaid Leave" definition in the system, then formally terminate you, then you would get 18 months of COBRA. I am unsure when the timing is for all of that. In my experience, having worked on the other side, if they would put you on "Unpaid Leave" for a year, you keep the employer subsidy for insurance, then they terminate you and you can pay for 18 months of COBRA at that time. With them laying you off, though, and you being able to collect unemployment, perhaps they are giving you a year's worth of COBRA subsidy and then it would be up to you to pay for the remaining six months on your own if you would like to. Either way, I would get more information on this because the way it is described above doesn't seem quite right to me.
Yukon
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Yukon »

Sorry to hear, Klang. I'd propose a mental 6 months break to recover from the emotional trauma of your job loss. Similar to the advice "Don't make any major decisions for 12-18 months" suggested following loss of a spouse, etc. This thread feels more emotionally traumatic than financially so.
Don't Work Forever.
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

BeneIRA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:11 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA
These two items are what stuck out to me. I read three or so pages of this thread and saw a couple of people mention it as well, but these things do not square.

If you are being offered a year of subsidized medical insurance, I am assuming these are at the rates you were paying as an active employee and you will be direct billed for these benefits. This sounds like your company will give you a "Leave with Pay" or "Unpaid Leave" definition in the system, then formally terminate you, then you would get 18 months of COBRA. I am unsure when the timing is for all of that. In my experience, having worked on the other side, if they would put you on "Unpaid Leave" for a year, you keep the employer subsidy for insurance, then they terminate you and you can pay for 18 months of COBRA at that time. With them laying you off, though, and you being able to collect unemployment, perhaps they are giving you a year's worth of COBRA subsidy and then it would be up to you to pay for the remaining six months on your own if you would like to. Either way, I would get more information on this because the way it is described above doesn't seem quite right to me.
It is 2 years of COBRA. They subsidized the first year.

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

Yukon wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 6:15 am Sorry to hear, Klang. I'd propose a mental 6 months break to recover from the emotional trauma of your job loss. Similar to the advice "Don't make any major decisions for 12-18 months" suggested following loss of a spouse, etc. This thread feels more emotionally traumatic than financially so.

Thanks.

KlangFool
printer86
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by printer86 »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:17 am
BeneIRA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:11 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA
These two items are what stuck out to me. I read three or so pages of this thread and saw a couple of people mention it as well, but these things do not square.

If you are being offered a year of subsidized medical insurance, I am assuming these are at the rates you were paying as an active employee and you will be direct billed for these benefits. This sounds like your company will give you a "Leave with Pay" or "Unpaid Leave" definition in the system, then formally terminate you, then you would get 18 months of COBRA. I am unsure when the timing is for all of that. In my experience, having worked on the other side, if they would put you on "Unpaid Leave" for a year, you keep the employer subsidy for insurance, then they terminate you and you can pay for 18 months of COBRA at that time. With them laying you off, though, and you being able to collect unemployment, perhaps they are giving you a year's worth of COBRA subsidy and then it would be up to you to pay for the remaining six months on your own if you would like to. Either way, I would get more information on this because the way it is described above doesn't seem quite right to me.
It is 2 years of COBRA. They subsidized the first year.

KlangFool
as I understand it, COBRA is good for only 18 months without some form of disability.
PoppyA
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by PoppyA »

Seems to be a new norm, forced out soon after turning 50.

I have no advice, but wanted to say well done for being prepared!

Best wishes.
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

printer86 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:17 am
BeneIRA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:11 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA
These two items are what stuck out to me. I read three or so pages of this thread and saw a couple of people mention it as well, but these things do not square.

If you are being offered a year of subsidized medical insurance, I am assuming these are at the rates you were paying as an active employee and you will be direct billed for these benefits. This sounds like your company will give you a "Leave with Pay" or "Unpaid Leave" definition in the system, then formally terminate you, then you would get 18 months of COBRA. I am unsure when the timing is for all of that. In my experience, having worked on the other side, if they would put you on "Unpaid Leave" for a year, you keep the employer subsidy for insurance, then they terminate you and you can pay for 18 months of COBRA at that time. With them laying you off, though, and you being able to collect unemployment, perhaps they are giving you a year's worth of COBRA subsidy and then it would be up to you to pay for the remaining six months on your own if you would like to. Either way, I would get more information on this because the way it is described above doesn't seem quite right to me.
It is 2 years of COBRA. They subsidized the first year.

KlangFool
as I understand it, COBRA is good for only 18 months without some form of disability.
printer86,

The employer can offer COBRA from 18 months to 36 months. It is their choice. The 18 months is the minimum requirement. In this case, the employer offer 24 months.

KlangFool
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Stinky
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Stinky »

I have nothing to add to previous posts. But I wanted to wish you the very best.

I hope that, regardless of the future path of your work life, you will stay active on this Forum. You are a valued member of this community.
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smitcat
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by smitcat »

PoppyA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:54 am Seems to be a new norm, forced out soon after turning 50.

I have no advice, but wanted to say well done for being prepared!

Best wishes.
Not soon after 50 in this case - 57/58.
OnTrack2020
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by OnTrack2020 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

A) 3 months severance pay

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA

D) 110K to 120K of the Emergency Fund

E) 1.35 to 1.4 million 60/40 portfolio

F) Late 50+ years old.

G) Annual expense of about 50K to 60K per year. (Total before wife's income)

H) My wife will continue working at 15K per year with good medical and dental insurance.

I) I had crossed the second bend points for Social Security. So, social security income for me and my wife combined is about 3K to 4K per month.

My question is

1) Is it really worthwhile for me to continue working? I worked in the IT area. If I want to stay in this area, I have to study 10 to 20 hours per week just to keep up with the latest technology.

2) If I do contract work, how much should I get paid before it is worthwhile for me to work?

A) I only plan to work 20 hours per week. Between unemployment and the $600 per week, I will get about $900 per week. Unless I am paid at $90 per hour or higher, it may not be worthwhile for me to work

3) Any other comment/feedback as to how do you decide whether you should continue working or just retire.

KlangFool
KlangFool, so sorry this has happened to you. You have given great advice about being prepared and you are. I think what people are saying is that COBRA is for 18 months total, so not understanding how there is a year of subsidized medical insurance and a year of COBRA separately. Maybe you have a year of subsidized COBRA, then have to pay for 6 months of COBRA? However, at some point, you will probably be on your wife's medical insurance, so you are good to go, plus social security. There's always the ACA if your wife were to ever get laid off.

There is no need for you to look for something else if you don't want to.
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goodenyou
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by goodenyou »

Klang:
You have been here a long time extolling the virtues of being prepared for financial shocks. You have received a lot of criticism and backlash for it, but always have defended it well. Your many posts have chronicled your ups and downs of job losses and financial mistakes over the years. I respect your resilience and agreed many times with your advice of preparedness. I wish you the besst of luck in bouncing back from yet another job loss and financial hardship. Thanks for your contributions.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" | Do you know how to make a rain dance work? Dance until it rains.
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

OnTrack2020 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 8:39 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

A) 3 months severance pay

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA

D) 110K to 120K of the Emergency Fund

E) 1.35 to 1.4 million 60/40 portfolio

F) Late 50+ years old.

G) Annual expense of about 50K to 60K per year. (Total before wife's income)

H) My wife will continue working at 15K per year with good medical and dental insurance.

I) I had crossed the second bend points for Social Security. So, social security income for me and my wife combined is about 3K to 4K per month.

My question is

1) Is it really worthwhile for me to continue working? I worked in the IT area. If I want to stay in this area, I have to study 10 to 20 hours per week just to keep up with the latest technology.

2) If I do contract work, how much should I get paid before it is worthwhile for me to work?

A) I only plan to work 20 hours per week. Between unemployment and the $600 per week, I will get about $900 per week. Unless I am paid at $90 per hour or higher, it may not be worthwhile for me to work

3) Any other comment/feedback as to how do you decide whether you should continue working or just retire.

KlangFool
KlangFool, so sorry this has happened to you. You have given great advice about being prepared and you are. I think what people are saying is that COBRA is for 18 months total, so not understanding how there is a year of subsidized medical insurance and a year of COBRA separately. Maybe you have a year of subsidized COBRA, then have to pay for 6 months of COBRA? However, at some point, you will probably be on your wife's medical insurance, so you are good to go, plus social security. There's always the ACA if your wife were to ever get laid off.

There is no need for you to look for something else if you don't want to.
OnTrack2020,

It turns out that

A) Employer can offer COBRA from 18 months to 36 months.

B) In this case, the employer offers 24 months of COBRA and subsidized part of the cost for the first 12 months.

KlangFool
bling
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by bling »

KlangFool wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 7:17 pm
btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
it's an imperfect analogy because this is cognitive work, not physical. also, are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? IT is one of the few industries that can easily WFH and it would be a waste to not take advantage of it. you don't need to find a job you love, just something you'll like and keep you occupied. there are plenty of good paying individual contributor jobs in tech that give you a lot of flexibility. health/401k benefits are invaluable here too.

you've saved enough and you'll be fine if you retire now. but i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

bling wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:00 am
KlangFool wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 7:17 pm
btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
it's an imperfect analogy because this is cognitive work, not physical. also, are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? IT is one of the few industries that can easily WFH and it would be a waste to not take advantage of it. you don't need to find a job you love, just something you'll like and keep you occupied. there are plenty of good paying individual contributor jobs in tech that give you a lot of flexibility. health/401k benefits are invaluable here too.

you've saved enough and you'll be fine if you retire now. but i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.
bling,

<< are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? >>

I could but I won't care too.

<<there are plenty of good paying individual contributor jobs in tech that give you a lot of flexibility. health/401k benefits are invaluable here too.>>

The problem here is at my current level of wealth and age, my remaining life and time are worth a lot to me.

<<you've saved enough and you'll be fine if you retire now. but i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.>>

With the stress level of my job, I won't last long to matter.

At an older age, there is an appreciation that I may not have many years of healthy life left. And, as you get older, you may no longer able to see, hear, and taste finer things in your life. And, healthy life will be further shortened in a stressful job.

Life is a compromise. But, you cannot buy time.

<<i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.>>

1) With my severance and unemployment, my income pay for the annual expense.

2) With a portfolio of 1.3 million and 110K of EF, if my wife is working. My annual withdrawal is 45K (worst case). Or, a withdrawal rate of 3.5%

3) And, I only need this withdrawal rate to last until 62/67 years old.

4) In summary, as long as the average return rate of my portfolio exceeds 3.5% over the next 5 to 6 years, I am accumulating even if I am unemployed.

KlangFool
Last edited by KlangFool on Sun May 24, 2020 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
bling
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by bling »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:09 am
bling wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:00 am
KlangFool wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 7:17 pm
btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
it's an imperfect analogy because this is cognitive work, not physical. also, are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? IT is one of the few industries that can easily WFH and it would be a waste to not take advantage of it. you don't need to find a job you love, just something you'll like and keep you occupied. there are plenty of good paying individual contributor jobs in tech that give you a lot of flexibility. health/401k benefits are invaluable here too.

you've saved enough and you'll be fine if you retire now. but i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.
bling,

<< are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? >>

I could but I won't care too.

<<there are plenty of good paying individual contributor jobs in tech that give you a lot of flexibility. health/401k benefits are invaluable here too.>>

The problem here is at my current level of wealth and age, my remaining life and time are worth a lot to me.

<<you've saved enough and you'll be fine if you retire now. but i'm sure you can appreciate how the math plays out if you're still accumulating vs decumulating.>>

With the stress level of my job, I won't last long to matter.

At an older age, there is an appreciation that I may not have many years of healthy life left. And, as you get older, you may no longer able to see, hear, and taste finer things in your life. And, healthy life will be further shortened in a stressful job.

Life is a compromise. But, you cannot buy time.

KlangFool
absolutely nothing wrong with that perspective. best of luck!
bayview
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by bayview »

KlangFool wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 7:17 pm
btq96r wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:07 pm At the least, you're in a better position that what you imagined as your worst case retirement plan.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=220234

If keeping up with the latest tech updates is getting harder, how about taking a lesser job just to keep benefits, some cash flow and serving a purpose? Not sure what side of IT you're in, but you're probably qualified for a helpdesk or other low grade position that can keep you insured, open you up to a 401k program, and all the other benefits of employment beyond the paycheck.
btq96r,

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
What a great saying! I stepped back a bit in my last two years, and only the fact that I worked remotely made it palatable. It was so frustrating (even more than previously) to see management doing the same wrong things repeatedly, knowing how much simpler it would have been to do them correctly. (And yes, I did gently suggest.)

And it’s also hard to do the boring stuff, even when you know it’s important, after working at a higher level.

I’m trying to imagine calling KlangFool on the help desk with one of my Idiot End User issues... :D
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
Topic Author
KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

bayview wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:28 am
What a great saying! I stepped back a bit in my last two years, and only the fact that I worked remotely made it palatable. It was so frustrating (even more than previously) to see management doing the same wrong things repeatedly, knowing how much simpler it would have been to do them correctly. (And yes, I did gently suggest.)

And it’s also hard to do the boring stuff, even when you know it’s important, after working at a higher level.

I’m trying to imagine calling KlangFool on the help desk with one of my Idiot End User issues... :D
Bayview,

It is not your job to tell them how to do their jobs. Not your problem. Nothing good will come out of this. Just do your own job.

KlangFool
printer86
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by printer86 »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 8:20 am
printer86 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:49 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:17 am
BeneIRA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:11 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 6:17 pm Folks,

So, it happened. I will be laid off by the end of June.

The basic financial stuff:

B) 1 year subsidized medical insurance.

C) 1 year COBRA
These two items are what stuck out to me. I read three or so pages of this thread and saw a couple of people mention it as well, but these things do not square.

If you are being offered a year of subsidized medical insurance, I am assuming these are at the rates you were paying as an active employee and you will be direct billed for these benefits. This sounds like your company will give you a "Leave with Pay" or "Unpaid Leave" definition in the system, then formally terminate you, then you would get 18 months of COBRA. I am unsure when the timing is for all of that. In my experience, having worked on the other side, if they would put you on "Unpaid Leave" for a year, you keep the employer subsidy for insurance, then they terminate you and you can pay for 18 months of COBRA at that time. With them laying you off, though, and you being able to collect unemployment, perhaps they are giving you a year's worth of COBRA subsidy and then it would be up to you to pay for the remaining six months on your own if you would like to. Either way, I would get more information on this because the way it is described above doesn't seem quite right to me.
It is 2 years of COBRA. They subsidized the first year.

KlangFool
as I understand it, COBRA is good for only 18 months without some form of disability.
printer86,

The employer can offer COBRA from 18 months to 36 months. It is their choice. The 18 months is the minimum requirement. In this case, the employer offer 24 months.

KlangFool
There is an exception for small employers (up to about 20 employees), but I don't see anywhere in the literature where a company can extend COBRA past 18 months. Are you sure it's extended COBRA that you will be accessing?

Literature from the inter webs...If you have already lost your job, you may be able to extend your health insurance coverage through the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) for up to 18 months after you lose your job. Typically, employers with at least 20 full-time employees are required to offer COBRA coverage. If you opt into coverage through COBRA, your health plan and health benefits remain the same, but you would be responsible for the entire cost of your coverage, plus an administrative fee. In most cases, you have 60 days to enroll upon receiving notice of eligibility for COBRA coverage. Once you opt into COBRA coverage, you cannot switch to a plan through a health insurance marketplace until ACA open enrollment begins in November or until COBRA coverage ends in 18 months.
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by whodidntante »

telemark wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:30 pm IBM announced layoffs this week, and it seems to be a general trend in the industry. Makes me glad I'm already retired.
IBM isn't a great business, pandemic or not. But yes, more trees will be shaken. That's how businesses deal with disruptions in sales.
flyingaway
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by flyingaway »

If I were in your shoes, I would not want to work for cheap, but I am also afraid of losing opportunities by not looking for a job. That is probably your feeling. You don't need any advices, you just want some validation, I guess.

Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy.

P.S. I spent several hours to read through the thread.
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

flyingaway wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:17 am If I were in your shoes, I would not want to work for cheap, but I am also afraid of losing opportunities by not looking for a job. That is probably your feeling. You don't need any advices, you just want some validation, I guess.

Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy.

P.S. I spent several hours to read through the thread.
flyingaway,

<<Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy. >>

1) I seriously doubt that.

2) I am not sure whether it is a good idea to continue at the current position. It may only last a few more months.

3) At this moment, it looks like a very good "get out of the jail" card.

KlangFool
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WoodSpinner
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by WoodSpinner »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:42 am
flyingaway wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:17 am If I were in your shoes, I would not want to work for cheap, but I am also afraid of losing opportunities by not looking for a job. That is probably your feeling. You don't need any advices, you just want some validation, I guess.

Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy.

P.S. I spent several hours to read through the thread.
flyingaway,

<<Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy. >>

1) I seriously doubt that.

2) I am not sure whether it is a good idea to continue at the current position. It may only last a few more months.

3) At this moment, it looks like a very good "get out of the jail" card.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

Two of the most important factors for a successful retirement are Preparation and Choice.

Having read your posts for 3 years or so, it’s clear you are well prepared. Reading this thread, it’s clear you are making a choice that is right for you. I suspect you will find your new path and prepare as much as possible for the challenges ahead.

Wish you nothing but the best!

WoodSpinner
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

WoodSpinner wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:57 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:42 am
flyingaway wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:17 am If I were in your shoes, I would not want to work for cheap, but I am also afraid of losing opportunities by not looking for a job. That is probably your feeling. You don't need any advices, you just want some validation, I guess.

Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy.

P.S. I spent several hours to read through the thread.
flyingaway,

<<Maybe, they will inform you next week that your job is not in jeopardy. >>

1) I seriously doubt that.

2) I am not sure whether it is a good idea to continue at the current position. It may only last a few more months.

3) At this moment, it looks like a very good "get out of the jail" card.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

Two of the most important factors for a successful retirement are Preparation and Choice.

Having read your posts for 3 years or so, it’s clear you are well prepared. Reading this thread, it’s clear you are making a choice that is right for you. I suspect you will find your new path and prepare as much as possible for the challenges ahead.

Wish you nothing but the best!

WoodSpinner
Thanks.

KlangFool
bayview
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by bayview »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:53 am
bayview wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:28 am
What a great saying! I stepped back a bit in my last two years, and only the fact that I worked remotely made it palatable. It was so frustrating (even more than previously) to see management doing the same wrong things repeatedly, knowing how much simpler it would have been to do them correctly. (And yes, I did gently suggest.)

And it’s also hard to do the boring stuff, even when you know it’s important, after working at a higher level.

I’m trying to imagine calling KlangFool on the help desk with one of my Idiot End User issues... :D
Bayview,

It is not your job to tell them how to do their jobs. Not your problem. Nothing good will come out of this. Just do your own job.

KlangFool
They kept asking my advice, and then not following it. Which is fine, but exasperating. Which is why I retired. (Among other reasons.)
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
csh
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by csh »

I just had to read through this thread because I figure I should expect the same situation sometime in the future. I am bit younger and increased my savings rate by quite a bit recently in order to prepare for it. This quote pretty much aligns with my attitude.
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:09 am With the stress level of my job, I won't last long to matter.

At an older age, there is an appreciation that I may not have many years of healthy life left. And, as you get older, you may no longer able to see, hear, and taste finer things in your life. And, healthy life will be further shortened in a stressful job.

Life is a compromise. But, you cannot buy time.
After losing a number of people close to me at relatively young ages, I came to the realization that life can be short so take time to smell the roses and enjoy life. I don't necessarily want to retire early, but want to have the capacity to either retire early or more likely take lower paying job that has a lower stress level just to get the healthcare coverage to bridge the gap. My main concern is the affordability of healthcare coverage in the future. Maybe ACA would make healthcare more affordable. I guess I'll find out what's available when the time comes.

KlangFool, it seems like you are prepared for the situation and your wife has approved of your retirement so I think you can do so with little regret. I am not sure, but there does seem like a there is a little concern about walking away and not staying current in the event you change your mind. There is always some level of second guessing major life/career changing decisions. I think it just comes with the territory. I made a major career change 20 years ago when changing jobs. My current employer made a significant counter offer that my new employer would not match. With that in the past I can see that leaving that money on the table back then to start a new career with a better future paid off for me. It was a stressful decision at the time. I do wish you a happy and healthy retirement.
visualguy
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by visualguy »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 9:09 am At an older age, there is an appreciation that I may not have many years of healthy life left. And, as you get older, you may no longer able to see, hear, and taste finer things in your life. And, healthy life will be further shortened in a stressful job.

Life is a compromise. But, you cannot buy time.
That's valid, and late 50s is a reasonable age to retire in my view. There's still the question of what to do with the time, though. The current situation with the virus is constraining in terms of travel, but even beyond that there's the issue that travel gets expensive, and the same applies to many hobbies, so the resources need to be there if you want to engage in those things, or many other "finer things" in life. A working spouse is also limiting (even though a benefit, of course, in terms of finances and health insurance). If things don't fall into place all that great for retirement, I would try to still work in my field for a while longer, but if that's not feasible or too stressful, then I would accept that it's over, and make the best of it.
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mmmodem
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by mmmodem »

You'll get no congratulations or commiserations from me. My company also announced layoffs and furloughs this week but I was not one of the lucky ones. I am still, unfortunately, still gainfully employed. What happened to you is exactly what should've happened to me. That is, someone pays me to retire and to realize I have more than enough money to enjoy a comfortable retirement.

While we don't have as much as you do, we have more than your worst case
viewtopic.php?t=220234
As do you. And I don't feel secure, so I keep working.

I've been following your posts for many years. While I vehemently disagree with your conservative investments, I can't think of anyone other than myself more worthy of this good news. This is a blessing for you.

As to your questions. I love what I do so I will be reading and keeping up with the technology as a hobby. I don't need a non financial reason to keep working. I like working. I'd be at the office today but they told me no one is working this weekend due to memorial day. If there is work opportunity, I will consider it regardless of compensation. If you don't feel the same way about your current line of work, is there something you are passionate about? And if there isn't right now, sit back. Relax. And continue to impart your knowledge on BH.
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by mathwhiz »

It sounds like you don't want to work. Almost every suggestion to work is responded by no, I can't, I don't want to, and so on and so forth. I think you know you want to retire and you have a seven figure portfolio so accept you won the game and retire. If you need to manage your cash flow, that may involve downsizing expenses or your lifestyle somewhat, potentially moving to a LCOL area or cheaper housing to extract more savings. But there is absolutely no reason you with a seven figure portfolio can't live comfortably somewhere. You've won the war on work. Now, you just need to figure out the terms of surrender.
KlangFool wrote: ↑
Sun May 24, 2020 10:09 am
At an older age, there is an appreciation that I may not have many years of healthy life left. And, as you get older, you may no longer able to see, hear, and taste finer things in your life. And, healthy life will be further shortened in a stressful job.

Life is a compromise. But, you cannot buy time.
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Nestegg_User »

An easier way to explain this is a good general makes a lousy soldier. I am no longer qualified for a helpdesk and/or low-grade job.

KlangFool
<< are you really sure you're so rusty you can't even do intermediate positions in your field? >>

I could but I won't care too

KlangFool

It is really a situation of do you want to go back.
As for your general not making a good soldier comment __
it depends upon whether you can scale down your needs/ego to just power through a couple more years to further build up your nestegg. It sounds like you DO want to go out on your terms and that you really need to spend some time and decide whether this is the case or whether it would just be a sisyphean exercise.
(I did retire on my own terms, with over twice your numbers plus a pension, as I wanted to be SURE that I never had to go back. I also know some that didn't retire on their terms that never really transitioned well into retirement, unfortunately, even when otherwise financially acceptable.)
Last edited by Nestegg_User on Sun May 24, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DoTheMath
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by DoTheMath »

KlangFool,

That's a bummer. I'm sure you'd rather be calling your own shots rather than have them forced upon you. But life throws us curveballs.

I won't bother with any advice as you have given more thought to this eventuality than almost anyone else here. You've been given grief from time-to-time about being too much of a worrywart. You were well justified in worrying, it turns out. Hopefully others will take a lesson.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do next! :beer
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
Ron Ronnerson
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

I’m sorry to hear about your job loss but agree with so many others that you are in good shape and can do what you want going forward. The only thing I will say is that, from my perspective, it is good to be flexible and keep your options open. For example, the sequence of returns, what happens with health insurance in this country, the rate of inflation in the years ahead, and how long you and your wife will live are not yet known. In my opinion, so long as you remain adaptable, you don’t have to make a plan in your 50s which requires no adjustments over the next several decades.

If you find that your portfolio is growing, you may be able to increase your spending if you would like to do so. If the opposite happens and the market has been performing poorly and other unfortunate things happen also (perhaps spouse has to stop working earlier than you hoped, the ACA goes away, and inflation turns out to be high), what would you do to right the ship? This is something to think about. Having said that, your numbers look good to me and I think you’ll be more than fine in all likelihood. Just be flexible in case that flexibility turns out to be needed by some chance.
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

It is obvious that I am burned out. Over the last few months, I was hoping to get a follow-on long-term project (3 to 4 years) that will set me up all the way until early retirement. Then, COVAD-19 canceled the project forever when it is about to be signed.

In any case, there is a resolution now. I can take a few months off. Then, I can wait up to 2 years for the dust to settle.

Thanks again for all the responses. It had been helpful to me.

KlangFool
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 pm
If the opposite happens and the market has been performing poorly and other unfortunate things happen also (perhaps spouse has to stop working earlier than you hoped, the ACA goes away, and inflation turns out to be high), what would you do to right the ship?
Ron Ronnerson,

I had planned for that. Move to a South East Asia country with good medical care and low-cost living.

KlangFool
dellfanboy
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by dellfanboy »

Klangfool,

Sorry to hear this is happening. You've been a guiding light for many of us on this board. You've always been thoughtful in your responses. So THANK YOU for that. You've prepared for this game for years and now is your time.

As one of your students, I'd say time to return to work for another 3-5 years to add some padding on to your numbers. I know it is tempting to call it with all going on but you'd advise any other poster to do the same thing.
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Soul.in.Progress »

I’m sorry to hear about the axe falling, KlangFool. I know from your posts that you have set yourself up for success in this situation. I think you will be fine no matter what you choose to do, work more or retire. Best wishes to you as you navigate this. Keep posting you advice to other Bogleheads, though!
Start by doing what is necessary; | then do what is possible; | and suddenly you are doing the impossible. | -- Francis of Assisi
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:42 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 pm
If the opposite happens and the market has been performing poorly and other unfortunate things happen also (perhaps spouse has to stop working earlier than you hoped, the ACA goes away, and inflation turns out to be high), what would you do to right the ship?
Ron Ronnerson,

I had planned for that. Move to a South East Asia country with good medical care and low-cost living.

KlangFool
That is a valid option. There are many ways to address a shortfall. You can relocate, increase income, cut expenses, or all of the above. Personally, I predict you will need to do none of these. However, as you know, it is good to be prepared just in case.

By the way, I am in the Bay Area and wish to stay here. However, I'm keeping relocating to a less expensive location as an option in case it turns out to be needed. However, we would do this only if it looked necessary. If our budget is just a little tight, we may do something like downsize or try to earn a little side income rather than moving to a different area. It's good to have different options available depending on the size of the issue.
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:59 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:42 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 pm
If the opposite happens and the market has been performing poorly and other unfortunate things happen also (perhaps spouse has to stop working earlier than you hoped, the ACA goes away, and inflation turns out to be high), what would you do to right the ship?
Ron Ronnerson,

I had planned for that. Move to a South East Asia country with good medical care and low-cost living.

KlangFool
That is a valid option. There are many ways to address a shortfall. You can relocate, increase income, cut expenses, or all of the above. Personally, I predict you will need to do none of these. However, as you know, it is good to be prepared just in case.

By the way, I am in the Bay Area and wish to stay here. However, I'm keeping relocating to a less expensive location as an option in case it turns out to be needed. However, we would do this only if it looked necessary. If our budget is just a little tight, we may do something like downsize or try to earn a little side income rather than moving to a different area. It's good to have different options available depending on the size of the issue.
Ron Ronnerson,

To me, it is not necessarily a bad option since that is the country where I came from. At this moment, this option is out of the question since my wife need to care for her mother here.

KlangFool
qwertyjazz
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by qwertyjazz »

Tell me if I understand the question. I think the concern is if you do not keep up than you cannot reverse that decision. If the facts stay the same, then it is reasonable to retire. You seem not to enjoy the job for its own sake (means of making money). So what circumstances could mean that you would need more money? What if your kids had trouble in the job market? What about cousins needing help? etc etc My suggestion would be to do some scenario planning where you might want/need more money. Then decide how reasonable or likely those scenarios are. Then most likely retire.
I do not understand 40% bonds paying as they are and you turning down a guaranteed 3.5% return by prepaying your mortgage. There might be something about duration but it would have to be subtle. Inflation will likewise eat away at your bonds as give you benefit with your mortgage.
Good luck with the next chapter of your life
G.E. Box "All models are wrong, but some are useful."
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KlangFool
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Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by KlangFool »

qwertyjazz wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:22 pm Tell me if I understand the question. I think the concern is if you do not keep up than you cannot reverse that decision. If the facts stay the same, then it is reasonable to retire. You seem not to enjoy the job for its own sake (means of making money). So what circumstances could mean that you would need more money? What if your kids had trouble in the job market? What about cousins needing help? etc etc My suggestion would be to do some scenario planning where you might want/need more money. Then decide how reasonable or likely those scenarios are. Then most likely retire.
I do not understand 40% bonds paying as they are and you turning down a guaranteed 3.5% return by prepaying your mortgage. There might be something about duration but it would have to be subtle. Inflation will likewise eat away at your bonds as give you benefit with your mortgage.
Good luck with the next chapter of your life
qwertyjazz,

<<I think the concern is if you do not keep up than you cannot reverse that decision. >>

You are correct. I am probably overthinking this. I had changed jobs, industry, and countries for so many times that it is probably not a problem.

<<I do not understand 40% bonds paying >>

I do not understand why do you think I borrow that 300K to invest in the bond. I borrow that 300K to invest in my 60/40 portfolio. Do you believe that the 60/40 portfolio cannot beat 3.5% per year over the next 10 years?

<<So what circumstances could mean that you would need more money? What if your kids had trouble in the job market? >>

Each of my kids has about 20K to 30K worth of savings. That should cover at least one year of expense.

<<What about cousins needing help?>>

Many in my family are millionaires. It is normal for a group of people with an average saving rate of 30+% or more of their gross incomes.

We pooled our money to send our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) to college in the USA from our home country.

The additional safety margin is our friend and family.

KlangFool
qwertyjazz
Posts: 1225
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:24 am

Re: The axe falls and I am prepared. What's next?

Post by qwertyjazz »

Ignore the stocks and just compare bonds to the mortgage - are you getting 3.5% return on the bond portion right now? if you sold the bonds and paid down the mortgage that is the return you would get - you are basically holding positive and negative bonds by holding bonds and a mortgage - you can make an argument about changing inflation or about deflation or about yield curves but then you would need to be investing in different durations - what is the average duration of your bond fund? Does it make sense to hold those bonds for the privilege of paying 3.5% for 30 years? - it can make sense to hold stocks and having more liquidity can matter at times but it do not understand your trade off of paying 3.5% for the privilege of bonds that pay so little now
G.E. Box "All models are wrong, but some are useful."
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