Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

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stoptothink
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by stoptothink »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:14 am
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:59 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:44 am
samsoes wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:38 am That's no way to live. Leave now. If you continue at this place, it will put you in the hospital. Once your free of it and some time had passed, it will be water under the bridge.
Gosh, I don’t know. When I started working, 100 hour weeks were not that unusual for me, and I never did wind up in the hospital. That said, I no longer worked those long hours after I got married and had kids, but I don’t think it’s a health hazard.
6000 fatal car crashes a year are attributed to drowsy and sleep deprived drivers. Sleep deprivation increases the risk of high blood pressure, heart disease, depression, and dementia.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... eprivation
In my admittedly limited and anecdotal experience, more sleep deprivation is caused by untreated sleep apnea than working too much.
There are countless factors in risk for sleep deprivation, but there are still only so many hours in a day. If you are working 100hrs/week it is nearly impossible not to be sleep deprived. Sleep apnea may not be relevant to OP, but basic math certainly is.
deltaneutral83
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Is this software engineers who write programs for high frequency trading for hedge funds?
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MilleniumBuc
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by MilleniumBuc »

They hired you as a specialist. When things cannot get done in the timeframe they ask you have to stand your ground and tell them it cannot be done and give them x, y and z reasons. Their delay in getting someone in that position and pushing and placing others in a rush deadline where they expect you to finish in their timeline, if not possible, needs to be told to them.

I am going through a similar situation now, where we are short, they offer me help, but those people are not trained in my specialty, and I have to waste more time to draw red lines and explain, and feed them work. Just spent all night up finishing a submittal. But at the same time had two more that I cannot get to by tomorrow and I told those pm’s that it won’t get done. I know they complain to my boss’s boss, but that is how things roll when you are the specialist. I put my hours in for the week and won’t kill myself working the rest of today or tomorrow.

I’d you don’t stop and work only 40-45 hours, they will never realize you need more help.
Monsterflockster
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Monsterflockster »

deanmoriarty wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 pm I have done a terrible, massive mistake.

I moved from a tech company in Silicon Valley to a hedge fund on the east coast, lured by the money (3x my current compensation if we include the bonus!). I relocated 3 weeks ago in a corporate housing rental, paid by them. Flight was expensed (business class), as well as other reimbursements.

In my decade of experience I have always been nothing but a stellar performer. When I started here, it was an immediate disaster. I haven’t even been given time to learn anything about the company, during the very first hour of work I was given tasks way above my level of expertise, with significant rush to deliver (“give me this by tomorrow?”). I haven’t even completed paperwork like payroll and insurance, I have had so much work to do it is insane. And, I am not able to deliver anything, I am not familiar with the systems and people expect me to know everything in the new environment. I can sense they are frustrated by my lack of knowledge, and there is no mentoring at all. My manager doesn’t exist, I have talked to them 15 minutes in two weeks.

In all the companies I’ve been at, people are given several weeks of slack to come up to speed, and someone to talk to daily for mentoring. Not here.

For the past two weeks I have been working 100 hours a week (yes, from 6am to 11pm and a good 10 hours every weekend day), I am going insane.

The interview feedback was extremely positive, they were looking for this position for a very long time (I am a specialist software engineer), and screened me well. I made sure to not oversell myself and was always honest when discussing my technical capabilities and projects, and yet I can’t get anything done. I would need at least 2-3 months where I just study the systems and come up to speed, with little work expected to be delivered.

How do I get out of this without having to pay a massive amount? As part of the offer I signed a clause saying I would have to repay the relocation expenses if I quit within a year, I thought “sure, I have never had a problem in any previous job, I won’t quit in a year!”. They put me in a very luxurious apartment in downtown, where rent is probably around $10k a month and they booked this place for 90 days...

This has been an insane nightmare and can’t believe it happened to me. For the 10 years of my career, I have been very much productive and always got promoted to lead positions quickly. I really don’t understand what went wrong.
Does anyone hang out or have friends or is it just high intensity work nonstop? Maybe try to make some friends? Are you a one man show or part of a department? As others have said stop working 100 hour weeks, maybe go to dinner with some co-workers?

Sounds like an insane environment to work in. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
oldfort
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by oldfort »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:10 am I guess things have changed since I was told of this by doctors (admittedly years ago).
30-40 years ago, it was common for residents to work insane hours. In New York, there was the famous case in 1984 of Libby Zion, dying after a medication prescription error from a resident working a 36 hour shift. This led to the Bell Commission and changes in New York state law in 1989. Over time, the ACGME made reduced work hours mandatory for accreditation nationally. Thankfully, for both patient safety and resident sanity, we no longer have the old system.
oldfort
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by oldfort »

Does the OP have a spouse or SO? Overtime, I would expect 100 hour work weeks to end a lot of relationships.
hicabob
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by hicabob »

I used to do 10 hour coding sessions when I was starting my company years ago. After about 10 hours I found myself being non-productive and even negatively productive introducing errors. 7 days/week, 10 hours a day for a year was plenty, but in the end it paid off very nicely. I think working for oneself makes ridiculous hours easier.
stoptothink
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by stoptothink »

hicabob wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:57 am I used to do 10 hour coding sessions when I was starting my company years ago. After about 10 hours I found myself being non-productive and even negatively productive introducing errors. 7 days/week, 10 hours a day for a year was plenty, but in the end it paid off very nicely. I think working for oneself makes ridiculous hours easier.
https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is ... -companies
oldfort
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by oldfort »

Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
Last edited by oldfort on Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
TravelGeek
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by TravelGeek »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:10 am
I guess things have changed since I was told of this by doctors (admittedly years ago).
There was a reform in the early 2000s.

I watched my wife go through residency under the old system. I was a young SV software engineer at the time, and she was putting in absolutely ridiculous hours (more than anyone in my team), with health and life of patients depending on her decisions. As potential patients we should be very grateful for the changes made to the training rules. IMHO, 80 hrs is still too much.

The OP needs to start managing their managers. Hard work and long hours are probably a reasonable expectation at that level of compensation and should not come as a surprise. But it also needs to be productive work, and no one can be productive in the situation described by the OP. And no one can be productive for 100 hrs a week.

If the OP isn’t familiar with the tech stack and infrastructure used at the new job, it is unlikely going to be productive to “learn as you go”. Without a decent foundation before you starting building anything you are facing endless cycles of rework and/or crappy results. Ask me how I know.

That doesn’t mean six months of training and no “productive” work. But the OP should be able to determine how much time is required, what resources (access to design docs, mentors) are needed, and clearly communicate this to the bosses.
onourway
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by onourway »

If you are responsible for anything remotely resembling custom, in-house software, it's patently ridiculous to expect that someone could come in and be anything resembling effective from day 1. I don't care how much you are getting paid or how big a genius you are. It simply takes time to understand the bigger picture and how things work. If you truly have no mentor through this, it's going to take even longer. And working 100 hour weeks at it isn't the answer - as others have stated, your productivity goes way down and you will actually accomplish less than if you were adequately rested.

So yeah, like most others here are saying - you need to stand your ground. They hired you as the expert - they need you.
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ClevrChico
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by ClevrChico »

Personally, I would change my schedule to something sane and try to make the best of it. The worst case scenario is getting terminated which is financially a best case for your current situation. Things might improve too.
BH_RedRan
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by BH_RedRan »

I suggest that you work a short day today and for the rest of the day go somewhere quiet to evaluate your situation. Decide if you are qualified for the position or not. Do you have the skills needed to get the jobs done? Are you missing only the information that could not be known ahead of time (such as legacy code, internal systems etc.)? What might this job look like if you had 100% of the skills and information to do it through experience there? List exactly what you need to get to the (mythical) all-knowing state.

I've been in a similar situation in my early years in tech. but was fortunate to have someone to tell me that my problem wasn't technical skills but time management. Other posters have hit on some of the easy to implement changes you can make to get control of your time.

A few things
1 Don't sign up for unrealistic goals. Don't whine about it but do push back with more realistic timelines (see #2). If there is missing information or tools or what have you, make sure that is understood. This can take the form of you requesting a short time to plan the job and get back to them with the plan. Another poster was right. Sometimes the manager has no idea what is involved.
2 Do plan out projects using planning tools like ghantt charts (there are free SW tools). Be sure to break tasks down into bite sized chunks. Helps with #1. Don't expect the plan to be perfect and don't make it hyper detailed. It won't be perfect and detail != accuracy.
3 Working beyond 8-10H when programming is worse than worthless. The brain just can't take that for extended periods. There will be mistakes and wasted time searching and fixing those mistakes. For myself, 5-6H in the morning is my sweet spot. I can be very productive/creative for that amount of time. After the 5-6H I review, plan the next day, maybe fix or document a fix to some obvious bugs that would otherwise wake me up at night when they hit me. That sweet spot time period is different for different people. You can usually tell you are in the sweet spot because you are enjoying it.
4 Don't move on the the next module/task until the prior module/task is done and tested.
5 There are several more aspects to time management. There are some good books on the subject. Find one or two, read them. Put some of the ideas into practice.

What I think is that you have an opportunity. Take control of the opportunity. I bet there is a good chance that once you get your feet under you and start taking control of your schedule that you could do well. Good luck.
Elysium
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Elysium »

OP,

Are you a software engineer thrown into the deep end on a fast moving delivery pipeline? If so, I sympathize with you partially, but on the other hand would say that just goes with expected territory these days with highly paid software jobs.

You may have been comfortable in a traditional software engineering setting with plenty of ramp up time, in the old days you get a buddy pairing to help get you setup, you will deal with 3 or 4 tools, mostly what you already know or can pick up fairly quickly. These days in a very fast paced environment, you get no buddy, instead some notes and instructions on a shared portal. You will need to know 12 to 15 different tools, some for the core work, and some for productivity, tracking, communicating. There will be access issues, understanding context, understanding technology.

You will feel lost, while others around you seem to be moving along, expect you to do same, with almost no help because they are all overworked just like you. There is very little loyalty to the company, so that everyone is there for the big pay and perks, they all know they need to work like insane in order to get what they get. Don't expect help because they aren't helped themselves, or having time.

To survive, you need to float along without getting stressed. Do what you can, to get access, to get understanding context, platforms, learn what you can, attend meetings and calls, and when asked of deliverable just say you have these blockers, and you are working on getting over them. The goal should be to incrementally get up to speed while not perhaps doing 100% or even 50%, just think of it as if you do 10% or 20% that's a win compared to quitting. Then it will progress to 50% or 60% and at that point you get some slack.

If you absolutely cannot, and being put on spot, called out in meetings, talked for being more productive, then that's when you speak up and push back, but again think about the incremental progress instead of perfection. Chances are they will not get a replacement soon, and will let you stay on and terms you can come to. What will happen is you will not be favored employee of management and your team mates, so you will need to put up with it while you look for another job.

This is the strategy, to keep floating along at your terms, doing something incrementally, while you find another job, actively interviewing, and if it comes to them pushing you out so be it. I don't think it will happen before 3 months though unless you stop co-operating totally.

Find another job, and move out, don't quit, you'll get 3 months, and think positive you will learn something from trying to keep up in this type of job. Trust me, I have been on this type of environments, though not hedge fund crazy, but fast paced delivery pipelines with too many moving parts and too many tools to cope with. I have had the luxury of being on architecture, that's been my exit from the pipeline, but every once in a while you get thrown into the deep end, and you'll need to figure out how to navigate. Staying calm is the key.
Last edited by Elysium on Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
BeneIRA
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by BeneIRA »

Isabelle77 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:14 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:44 am
samsoes wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:38 am That's no way to live. Leave now. If you continue at this place, it will put you in the hospital. Once your free of it and some time had passed, it will be water under the bridge.
Gosh, I don’t know. When I started working, 100 hour weeks were not that unusual for me, and I never did wind up in the hospital. That said, I no longer worked those long hours after I got married and had kids, but I don’t think it’s a health hazard. From what I hear, new doctors put in those kinds of hours, usually without any ability to decide which particular hours they will do.

ETA: you can usually get a lot done in 60 hour weeks.
The OP doesn’t say how old he is, it matters.There’s a big difference between 25yrs old and 44yrs old. We worked crazy hours in our 20s too. My husband is 44, he’s 5’11 and currently weighing in at 137lbs, he’s normally around 165lbs. He barely sleeps. He can’t “get a lot done in a 60 hour work week” because he has meetings as early as 7am and as late as 10pm (with the Japan office) nearly every day for the entire day. In meetings he has been screamed at, hung up on, and generally abused. This is not an abnormal thing for this company btw. It is definitely a health hazard.

I would have had the same response as you before this experience but some jobs are truly just abusive environments.
Was there anything on Google, Glassdoor, during the interview or something else that, in hindsight, your husband or you saw that was a red flag for this so the rest of us don't fall into this trap?
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deanmoriarty
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by deanmoriarty »

oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
That data is correct (minus the net worth, which has taken a sad haircut). The new offer is for 1.2M a year, of course 80% of it being annual performance bonus that I’ll never get because there’s no way I’ll survive here. I asked them multiple times to screen me very well, and on my explicit request they gave me two different rounds of interviews, so I interviewed with more than 10 people. I was exactly worried of this: to come in and be expected to do wonders from day 1 due to the high pay. Even with all the precautions and extra scrutiny I asked from them, I failed to forecast how insane this environment is.

Thank you for all the replies. I might try to talk to someone who knows the law. This has been affecting my health already, I easily lost already 5+ lb due to sleep deprivation and the fact that I am eating just one meal a day on average. And yes, 100 hours is accurate.

Back to work..
Last edited by deanmoriarty on Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Isabelle77
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Isabelle77 »

BeneIRA wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:49 am
Isabelle77 wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:14 am
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:44 am
samsoes wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:38 am That's no way to live. Leave now. If you continue at this place, it will put you in the hospital. Once your free of it and some time had passed, it will be water under the bridge.
Gosh, I don’t know. When I started working, 100 hour weeks were not that unusual for me, and I never did wind up in the hospital. That said, I no longer worked those long hours after I got married and had kids, but I don’t think it’s a health hazard. From what I hear, new doctors put in those kinds of hours, usually without any ability to decide which particular hours they will do.

ETA: you can usually get a lot done in 60 hour weeks.
The OP doesn’t say how old he is, it matters.There’s a big difference between 25yrs old and 44yrs old. We worked crazy hours in our 20s too. My husband is 44, he’s 5’11 and currently weighing in at 137lbs, he’s normally around 165lbs. He barely sleeps. He can’t “get a lot done in a 60 hour work week” because he has meetings as early as 7am and as late as 10pm (with the Japan office) nearly every day for the entire day. In meetings he has been screamed at, hung up on, and generally abused. This is not an abnormal thing for this company btw. It is definitely a health hazard.

I would have had the same response as you before this experience but some jobs are truly just abusive environments.
Was there anything on Google, Glassdoor, during the interview or something else that, in hindsight, your husband or you saw that was a red flag for this so the rest of us don't fall into this trap?
YES. Believe glassdoor folks! It wasn't super clear and there were several positive reviews (from HR, it turns out) so it was a little confusing but enough that we should have been more careful. Honestly, my husband is a really easygoing hard worker and we thought it must be overblown, angry employees love to complain, right? The real red flag was that he didn't get to meet his team during the interview process. They said they were shuffling things around so they weren't sure who would be on his team, he was supposed to have 5-6 direct reports. Showed up the first day and he didn't have a team at all and wasn't leading the division he had been hired for, because there was already someone in that position. Also during the interview process, several people who were supposed to interview him were either very late or didn't show up for the interview, which at the time he didn't realize was a clear signal that schedules were nuts. No one took him to lunch or dinner. They talked a lot about the "'company name' way" that they "moved fast" and were "versatile", all code words for "we're run by crazy people." So yes, believe the online reviews.
surfstar
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by surfstar »

Ah, The American Dream. Trade your life for money.
Independent George
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Independent George »

BeneIRA wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:49 am
Was there anything on Google, Glassdoor, during the interview or something else that, in hindsight, your husband or you saw that was a red flag for this so the rest of us don't fall into this trap?
In hindsight, the fact that they've been attempting to fill this position for a long time and had to hire someone from across the country (who likely didn't know anyone in the industry) seems like a red flag.

There's a lot of IT talent in NYC, and even more on the I-95 corridor. If they couldn't hire someone, it's because nobody wanted to work there.

There was no way to know this in advance, but that's how I interpret it based on the OP's experience.
Isabelle77
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Isabelle77 »

Independent George wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:05 pm
BeneIRA wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:49 am
Was there anything on Google, Glassdoor, during the interview or something else that, in hindsight, your husband or you saw that was a red flag for this so the rest of us don't fall into this trap?
In hindsight, the fact that they've been attempting to fill this position for a long time and had to hire someone from across the country (who likely didn't know anyone in the industry) seems like a red flag.

There's a lot of IT talent in NYC. If they couldn't hire someone, it's because nobody wanted to work there.
This is definitely true in my husband's case, although he's in marketing/product management. When we would tell people we met here where he works, it was obvious that the company has a negative reputation locally.
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galawdawg
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by galawdawg »

So did you end up at the hedge fund job in NYC that you posted about at the end of Feb (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305360&p=5052626#p5052626) or the job in Illinois that you posted about in mid-March (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=307522&p=5094936#p5094936)?

If your salaried compensation is greater than $400k per year, then it would seem to me that repayment of the relocation expenses incurred to date shouldn't be a factor in your decision. Your post suggests that the major expense is $10k per month for rent (and you would have presumably had to pay for a place to live somewhere anyway) plus business class airfare and some other miscellaneous and presumably insignificant expenses. So if you are that miserable, I'd second the recommendations that you talk with management about expectations, training and mentoring. Otherwise, just resign and repay the money.

However, considering the compensation you are receiving, I honestly don't think that you should expect to just punch a forty hour a week clock and come up to speed. If it takes double that or more to get up to speed and become a productive contributor, then that's what it takes. Many lawyers put in those kind of hours as associates in major law firms at a fraction of the compensation you are earning. Since you say the apartment is paid for 90 days anyway, I'd recommend you meet with HR and management about expectations and then give it another month or so putting in 100 hrs a week if necessary and see if you are able to get acclimated and up to speed and whether that makes any difference in your outlook about the future at that firm. If you are still unhappy, then just resign and make arrangements to repay what you owe. You'll still have made very good money after repayment and it will simply be one of those life lessons.

I disagree with those who say to simply coast or not do your job and hope to get fired to avoid repayment. After all, if this is the hedge fund job you posted about in February, it looks like you were aware of significant performance expectations when you received the offer.
deanmoriarty wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:11 pm I am an engineer looking to move from a tech company (in Silicon Valley) to a financial company (in NYC). Just this week I received the final offer, which includes a substantial sign-on bonus of $400k (since I am forfeiting some equity in my current tech company by leaving). The bonus is to be paid during my first pay period, and it has a repayment condition mandating that, if I voluntarily quit or get terminated within 12 months, I have to repay it in full, the gross amount....
--
If during these 12 months something goes south and I find myself either having to quit (unlikely, but who knows?) or being fired (more likely, due to the performance expectations of this firm?)...
You mentioned in this thread that "I would need at least 2-3 months where I just study the systems and come up to speed, with little work expected to be delivered." Did you specifically mention that during your interview process? If so, remind them of that during your meeting and hold firm to that requirement. If you "warned" them not to expect anything from you for several months other than studying the system and they are now expecting you to immediately produce, perhaps a negotiated mutual agreement to end your employment without a repayment obligation would be in order. But if you didn't alert them that you would need several months to learn the system without being expected to do any other work, it isn't reasonable (particularly considering the compensation and benefits they are paying you) to now inform them of that fact or expect them to just "know" that. Just my opinion. Good luck.
Last edited by galawdawg on Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aaronjb_ME
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by aaronjb_ME »

Very early in my career, I was in a similar spot. Brought in to do IT job A, then on the first day realized it was actually IT job B. I had no boss, no real colleagues, and was working out of what amounted to a closet. This was in the late 90s when companies were on hiring sprees for technical staff (in some cases, literally hiring every warm body who could fill a sit to increase headcount). On my first day I realized I had made a mistake.

I wasn't responsible for anyone other than myself, so I walked. It was the right choice for me personally, and coincidentally the company was mismanaged and collapsed within a couple of years.

The advice to talk to HR is well-intentioned, but I think isn't taking into account what the role of human resources in organizations like this is. In my experience, it's not a neutral ground to reveal what the OP here would likely reveal.

I would find a way out, particularly if you have a path back to your previous employer or another job. I understand the cost associated with that, but waiting until an eventual termination can be even more damaging financially and, more importantly, emotionally. The added component of the mental and physical impact of the workweek OP describes makes this a no-brainer for me.
finite_difference
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by finite_difference »

mlipps wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:12 pm Work 40 hours a week, do what you can, and job hunt until they fire you.
I could see working 60 hours/week in the beginning to try to catch up to speed, but I agree that 100 hours/week is insane and is not sustainable.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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galawdawg
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by galawdawg »

deanmoriarty wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:59 am
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
That data is correct (minus the net worth, which has taken a sad haircut). The new offer is for 1.2M a year, of course 80% of it being annual performance bonus that I’ll never get because there’s no way I’ll survive here. I asked them multiple times to screen me very well, and on my explicit request they gave me two different rounds of interviews, so I interviewed with more than 10 people. I was exactly worried of this: to come in and be expected to do wonders from day 1 due to the high pay. Even with all the precautions and extra scrutiny I asked from them, I failed to forecast how insane this environment is.

Thank you for all the replies. I might try to talk to someone who knows the law. This has been affecting my health already, I easily lost already 5+ lb due to sleep deprivation and the fact that I am eating just one meal a day on average. And yes, 100 hours is accurate.

Back to work..
If you are doing that poorly and it is affecting your health, just resign and be done with it.

You mentioned in January in connection with the hedge fund job prospects that you had about $2 million, all in VG index funds (which at your 70/30 portfolio is probably down to about $1,700,000 or so now), you mentioned in February that you just received a $400k bonus from your employer, and you mentioned in March that you have another $3 million in stock from your previous employer which is currently illiquid. You have mentioned that you are single, you don't own a house and have nothing really tying you down or anyone depending upon you other than you.

So forgive my directness, but why on earth are you concerned about paying back some relocation expenses that total a tiny fraction of your wealth and represents less than two weeks salary???? If it is truly as terrible as you say, just resign.
oldfort
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by oldfort »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:10 pm However, considering the compensation you are receiving, I honestly don't think that you should expect to just punch a forty hour a week clock and come up to speed. If it takes double that or more to get up to speed and become a productive contributor, then that's what it takes. Many lawyers put in those kind of hours as associates in major law firms at a fraction of the compensation you are earning. Since you say the apartment is paid for 90 days anyway, I'd recommend you meet with HR and management about expectations and then give it another month or so putting in 100 hrs a week if necessary and see if you are able to get acclimated and up to speed and whether that makes any difference in your outlook about the future at that firm. If you are still unhappy, then just resign and make arrangements to repay what you owe. You'll still have made very good money after repayment and it will simply be one of those life lessons.

I disagree with those who say to simply coast or not do your job and hope to get fired to avoid repayment. After all, if this is the hedge fund job you posted about in February, it looks like you were aware of significant performance expectations when you received the offer.
The OP's target comp is $1.2 million. What do law associate salaries have to do with anything? The OP isn't some first year associate, needing to be a corporate slave, to pay off their student loan debt.
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McGilicutty
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by McGilicutty »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:52 pm So forgive my directness, but why on earth are you concerned about paying back some relocation expenses that total a tiny fraction of your wealth and represents less than two weeks salary???? If it is truly as terrible as you say, just resign.
This thread does seem strange ... a $5 million net worth, a job that sounds like hell on earth, and he's worried about paying back relo expenses that would amount to less than 1% of his net worth? Weird.
cherijoh
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by cherijoh »

MilleniumBuc wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:34 am They hired you as a specialist. When things cannot get done in the timeframe they ask you have to stand your ground and tell them it cannot be done and give them x, y and z reasons. Their delay in getting someone in that position and pushing and placing others in a rush deadline where they expect you to finish in their timeline, if not possible, needs to be told to them.

I am going through a similar situation now, where we are short, they offer me help, but those people are not trained in my specialty, and I have to waste more time to draw red lines and explain, and feed them work. Just spent all night up finishing a submittal. But at the same time had two more that I cannot get to by tomorrow and I told those pm’s that it won’t get done. I know they complain to my boss’s boss, but that is how things roll when you are the specialist. I put my hours in for the week and won’t kill myself working the rest of today or tomorrow.

I’d you don’t stop and work only 40-45 hours, they will never realize you need more help.
I think the OP was probably unrealistic in his expectations for 2-3 weeks of ramp up time and a mentor - it is the cut-throat hedge fund industry after all. They don't attract people with the collaborative, "we're all part of one big team" attitude you might find in a CA software company. (Or at least as how I imagine it works). However, I agree absolutely that nothing will change if the OP doesn't stop working those insane hours and trying to everything thrown at him.

But the rest of it sounds like the perfect storm to me:
  • Starting a new job in a new industry using tools with which you are not familiar (I took a job that listed SQL programming as a requirement and was hired when I told them honestly that I understood relational databases conceptually but had no programming experience. Fortunately I was able to work with a programmer until I got up to speed - I would have been overwhelmed otherwise).
  • Starting a new job in the most volatile part of the financial industry during a period of unprecedented financial volatility - not that a hedge fund is ever anything but a pressure cooker
  • Starting a new job in a major east coast city (NYC, Boston?) in the midst of a global pandemic where everyone is locked down and probably not coming into the office and is certainly preoccupied with their own health and livelihood and those of their families
  • Having the manager AWOL when it comes to prioritizing tasks - possible different people each with their own # 1 priority
imfocusedman
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by imfocusedman »

I'm truly surprised by all of the "quit now and run" or "wait it out and get fired" or "leave at 5 every day" advice! I'm my opinion this is misguided or at best misinformed advice for the league you are in.

OP - you are getting paid $1.2M by this company, meaning that's the value they've placed on your potential value to them (and vetted through their interview process). You're clearly smart, experienced and capable. Why is your first reaction to quit when the seas get a little rocky? Why not offer them some of what you have in place of what you think they are asking for - step up into what sounds like a big time role and use your knowledge and experience to inform them on what's possible and what's not.

This isn't about hours or lifestyle or anything else, this is about a disconnect between your perception of their expectations ("get this done by tomorrow or your fired") and what a smart guy who moved across the country for this role is capable of delivering.

Find one of the senior people you interviewed with (NOT HR), force 30 mins on their calendar under the subject "First 10 days observations" and go in and share what you've seen - what they are doing right/wrong, where you can help, where you will begin first, how long it's going to take, and what you're going to need to get it done. That's what they're paying you $1.2M for - to solve problems they couldn't solve without you, not processing a complicated TPS report by tomorrow morning.

Stick it out and don't be afraid. You will learn more by diving in and trying something new than running away or sitting back and watching this "mistake" play out.

Good luck.
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by galawdawg »

oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:57 pm The OP's target comp is $1.2 million. What do law associate salaries have to do with anything? The OP isn't some first year associate, needing to be a corporate slave, to pay off their student loan debt.
My point was that contrary to some who have posted about how OP should only work forty hour weeks or that he should be out the door after eight hours, many professionals have to work very long hours, sometimes that is the expectation or even requirement at some firms.

OP is at a brand new job being paid, by his report, a total package of $1.2 million annually, three times his previous level of compensation. Unless the OP specifically advised them during the interview process that he would need two to three months to learn the system before he would actually be able to perform any work, then a company paying that type of compensation is not likely going to be content to just say "sure, take your time, make yourself comfortable...just let us know when you are ready...". If OP didn't make the firm aware of his learning curve requirement, then he may have to do what it takes, even if it means working 100 hours a week, to get up to speed and meet performance expectations. That is on him in which case his options, as I see it, are to meet with management to review expectations and training and strive to make the new position workable or resign and repay what he is obligated to repay.

On the other hand, as I also mentioned, if OP made clear his assessment of the learning curve during the interview process and that he wouldn't be able to perform any work for the first two to three months, he should use that to either insist upon that time to learn the system or negotiate a mutually agreeable departure.
Jim Beaux
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Jim Beaux »

Communication is the best way to handle this situation. Open the door, get with your superior and ask what you could do better. Then you can share your frustration. (dont complain or whine) Heck, he may be happy with your production.

Keeping it to yourself makes it your problem, sharing & asking for help makes it 'our' problem. :sharebeer
slbnoob
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by slbnoob »

OP, don't doubt yourself. Perhaps, this is the opportunity to start being a leader and an expert and educating others on what needs to be done and how. You might well need to build a team to accomplish the firm's objectives/expectations from you.
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Watty
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Watty »

Retired software developer here.
deanmoriarty wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 pm .....during the very first hour of work I was given tasks way above my level of expertise, with significant rush to deliver (“give me this by tomorrow?”).
.....

My manager doesn’t exist, I have talked to them 15 minutes in two weeks.
This part really stood out when I read it.

If nothing else drop by their office or give them a call and set up a meeting.

I never worked in the environment you are in but it can be huge problem if you let just anyone try to give you work to do without going through your manager.

They do not know your priorities, schedule, etc and frankly in some cases people may try to assign you work that they should be doing or trying to get you to take over problems they created.

They may also be asking you to do something that they have already asked upper management about but had been told "no". I regularly saw people trying to get around that by asking computer staff directly to do something when they could not get managements approval for it.

Very early in my career I learned that when someone comes to you with something to do by all means talk with them briefly about it but then the next step should be to schedule a meeting with your manager to get it put on the work schedule.

If your manager does not have the time to schedule a meeting to go over the written request then that means the answer from manager was "no" to the request.

I don't know anything about hedge funds but in the corporate IT environment there are massive procedural and documentation requirements because of the Sarbanes–Oxley Act rules for how projects need to be managed and approved. If people are asking "informally" for you to do stuff then there could be a lot of problems when the next audit is done. This can be especially important when you are directly dealing with money since someone might ask you to make a change, or take a shortcut, which would allow the systems to be compromised.

As someone else said the right answer to their question may very well be that additional staff, or contractors, will need to be hired to do the work. You would need to outline the need and you might need to supervise them but if you contact your manager with a request to hire the needed people you might be surprised and they could be as happy as a clam that someone actually has a plan to address some of the problems.

It could turn out that since there is way too much work for you to do that your real job is to be in charge of hiring other people to do the needed work.

You really need to open up the communications with your management. If things are not working out then it might not be a question of you quitting or being fired. A couple of times I have see situations where there was mutual agreement that the job was not working out and management agreed to wave things like relocation expenses and the employee agreed not to sue the company.
Last edited by Watty on Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oldfort
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by oldfort »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:24 pm
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:57 pm The OP's target comp is $1.2 million. What do law associate salaries have to do with anything? The OP isn't some first year associate, needing to be a corporate slave, to pay off their student loan debt.
My point was that contrary to some who have posted about how OP should only work forty hour weeks or that he should be out the door after eight hours, many professionals have to work very long hours, sometimes that is the expectation or even requirement at some firms.
That has to be at the extreme end. A lawyer that works 5000 hours/year with 70% of their time in billable hours would be producing 3500 billable hours a year.
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by wfrobinette »

deanmoriarty wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 pm I have done a terrible, massive mistake.

I moved from a tech company in Silicon Valley to a hedge fund on the east coast, lured by the money (3x my current compensation if we include the bonus!). I relocated 3 weeks ago in a corporate housing rental, paid by them. Flight was expensed (business class), as well as other reimbursements.

In my decade of experience I have always been nothing but a stellar performer. When I started here, it was an immediate disaster. I haven’t even been given time to learn anything about the company, during the very first hour of work I was given tasks way above my level of expertise, with significant rush to deliver (“give me this by tomorrow?”). I haven’t even completed paperwork like payroll and insurance, I have had so much work to do it is insane. And, I am not able to deliver anything, I am not familiar with the systems and people expect me to know everything in the new environment. I can sense they are frustrated by my lack of knowledge, and there is no mentoring at all. My manager doesn’t exist, I have talked to them 15 minutes in two weeks.

In all the companies I’ve been at, people are given several weeks of slack to come up to speed, and someone to talk to daily for mentoring. Not here.

For the past two weeks I have been working 100 hours a week (yes, from 6am to 11pm and a good 10 hours every weekend day), I am going insane.

The interview feedback was extremely positive, they were looking for this position for a very long time (I am a specialist software engineer), and screened me well. I made sure to not oversell myself and was always honest when discussing my technical capabilities and projects, and yet I can’t get anything done. I would need at least 2-3 months where I just study the systems and come up to speed, with little work expected to be delivered.

How do I get out of this without having to pay a massive amount? As part of the offer I signed a clause saying I would have to repay the relocation expenses if I quit within a year, I thought “sure, I have never had a problem in any previous job, I won’t quit in a year!”. They put me in a very luxurious apartment in downtown, where rent is probably around $10k a month and they booked this place for 90 days...

This has been an insane nightmare and can’t believe it happened to me. For the 10 years of my career, I have been very much productive and always got promoted to lead positions quickly. I really don’t understand what went wrong.
I'd wait to get fired but line something else up. You learned a great lesson that more $ isn't always worth it. The one thing I've heard is that hedge funds and private equity are for uber workaholics.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by TomatoTomahto »

OP, without identifying the hedge fund (or losing anonymity), could you give us some characteristics of the hedge fund? For example, number of employees, depth of IT resources, etc.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
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samsoes
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by samsoes »

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Independent George
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Independent George »

deanmoriarty wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:59 am
That data is correct (minus the net worth, which has taken a sad haircut). The new offer is for 1.2M a year, of course 80% of it being annual performance bonus that I’ll never get because there’s no way I’ll survive here. I asked them multiple times to screen me very well, and on my explicit request they gave me two different rounds of interviews, so I interviewed with more than 10 people. I was exactly worried of this: to come in and be expected to do wonders from day 1 due to the high pay. Even with all the precautions and extra scrutiny I asked from them, I failed to forecast how insane this environment is.

Thank you for all the replies. I might try to talk to someone who knows the law. This has been affecting my health already, I easily lost already 5+ lb due to sleep deprivation and the fact that I am eating just one meal a day on average. And yes, 100 hours is accurate.

Back to work..
You have to quit. Talk to a lawyer about what that means for compensation, but there is no point in continuing at a job that is impacting your health like this. I have no idea whom you report to, but it is clear that:

1. The issue is not compensation, it's the job. If they can't give you what you need to get the job done, then the job won't get done - at least not by you in those circumstances.
2. Regardless of whether or not their expectations are reasonable, you are not capable of meeting them, and it's a waste of everyone's time to keep pretending you can.
3. The sooner you leave, the sooner they can find a replacement. Based on what you've said, it sounds like it's a chronic problem for them.

Talk to an attorney to find out what you're giving up and what you need to do to protect yourself, then give them your two weeks notice. Do the best you can in those two weeks, and then walk away. If they ask you to leave even earlier, that's even better for you. Walk away, and reflect on what's important in life before searching for your next job. Past a certain point (which you've already exceeded), the answer is not money.
housewife
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by housewife »

OP, while I sympathize with your situation, I think you are just a bit overwhelmed by the new work environment and the hedge fund culture. Find the right time, sit down with the right person, tell him/her the frustration you are having, and ask directly for a pause so that you have a reasonable time period to get up to speed. They vetted you thoroughly, so they know you can handle the job. You have to believe in yourself as well. $1.2mm (and potentially a lot more during good years) is a lot in compensation. It is worth you putting in some effort to make it work. These people want you, and they might be more understanding than you think.

Also, you need to think about what you want long-term. Hedge fund is a place for youth and brain power. The idea is that you tough it out for 10 years, hope for more good years than bad years during that time, and ride off to the sunset with $20 million. If you want more of a work-life balance, lots of stability, and a job that does not impose constant pressure, this is not the right industry. But with solid technical skills and solid work performances, you should have plenty of options elsewhere and still make excellent comps. No reason to get stressed out and lose sleep.
rivendell
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by rivendell »

deanmoriarty wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:59 am
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
That data is correct (minus the net worth, which has taken a sad haircut). The new offer is for 1.2M a year, of course 80% of it being annual performance bonus that I’ll never get because there’s no way I’ll survive here. I asked them multiple times to screen me very well, and on my explicit request they gave me two different rounds of interviews, so I interviewed with more than 10 people. I was exactly worried of this: to come in and be expected to do wonders from day 1 due to the high pay. Even with all the precautions and extra scrutiny I asked from them, I failed to forecast how insane this environment is.

Thank you for all the replies. I might try to talk to someone who knows the law. This has been affecting my health already, I easily lost already 5+ lb due to sleep deprivation and the fact that I am eating just one meal a day on average. And yes, 100 hours is accurate.

Back to work..
I work in a different field but for ten years in my 20s to 30s worked over 100 hours a week for weeks on end and 80-90 hours a week routinely; trained and worked in the era of medical training and practice when that was allowed and expected. This schedule is exhausting for anyone and can contribute to depression and anxiety. It is also counterproductive and limits your effectiveness to problem solve and be effective at work. I was forced to reduce my schedule due to external forces but it turned out to be a good change; still work well over 40 hours but have time for the rest of life now and am calmer and happier.
The first thing to do is to limit your work hours to a level where you can sleep for at least 6-7 hours every night and eat 3 meals on a regular schedule. It will also help you feel better to exercise every day for even 30 minutes. You could still work 70-80 hours and do these things.
Others have given good advice on how to address your manager and colleagues. It sounds like an environment where you have to advocate for yourself and take care of yourself. If you cannot have a healthier lifestyle in this new job then making a change to a different job would be smart. You are making great money but it's not worth your health and sanity.
“On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.” | ― Chuck Palahniuk
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mrspock
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by mrspock »

Some thoughts:

1. Which string did you draw? (short or long) - $1.2m sounds like a lot, but how does this compare with all the other folks who are running themselves into the ground? If quants are making $4-5m for 100hrs and you are taking home $1.2m -- I'd probably keep that in mind before you run yourself into the ground like they are. At $4-5m a year or more they can do this for 2-3 years and go retire to some cushy gig not giving a hoot if they get canned or not, at $1.2m your situation is a bit different, you'd need to sustain that for quite a bit longer which exposes you to all sorts of potential health risks.

2. Expectations - I'd just echo what others have said, here: set expectations with your manager and those asking you to do "tasks". At least where I work, I get to pick and choose what I take on, and I don't take just any random crap thrown in my direction. I work on the most important things I can given the bandwidth I have, and the rest I'll either say no, or let them know when I can get around to it. Saying "no" or "not now" is almost always better for everyone than risking burn out, or not meeting expectations.

3. Imposter Syndrome - Give yourself time....its perfectly normal to feel like an under-qualified doofus at a new gig. Frankly I felt this way for maybe 2 years into my current job, and even now I feel like the dumbest one in the room many days. It's normal, maybe even healthy -- relax. You probably passed one of the most intense interview processes out there, they probably interviewed scores of candidates -- they picked YOU. They aren't going to go through all that trouble only to can you because you took a few months to learn a bunch of new systems, and if it does, you dodged a bullet, who wants to work for anyone like that?

4. Next time - I don't know how common this is, but consider negotiating either a golden parachute or have them pay out every dime of your unvested stock at your old shop before moving over. The reason for doing this is to align both of your interests (i.e. they have a big financial stake in your success, happiness and enjoyment of the job), they need some skin in the game. In this situation, I wouldn't have moved unless they made these type of commitments to me, I have very low risk at my current company/role as I've been working here with success for a very long time, there's no way I'd be moving someplace else without such an arrangement. In figuring out your desired "total comp", consider factors such as industry reputation, company reputation, engineering culture, plus career risk and opportunity costs. Now maybe this calculus came up to $1.2m (bird in hand was worth 3 in the bush) for you, in which case you need to live with your decision :? .

Good luck OP!
hookemhorns
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by hookemhorns »

I see some posters saying "100hrs a week is unrealistic" or "just tell them you will only work 8-10 hours and then leave." These posters have no idea what financial services and particularly investment banking/HF/big consulting/big law jobs entail. I briefly worked in investment banking and was LUCKY to leave the office by 11pm -- that was true 6-7x days/week, and many days I was there past 1am. My colleagues all did the same and leaving early is NOT an option. These are not 9-5 jobs and never will be, which is a big reason they pay so well.

Anyways, as to what the OP should do, there are really two options:

1) Give it 2-3 months and see what happens. Every job has a learning curve and this has been a chaotic period in the markets. Additionally, even financial services jobs usually slow down in summer when the top people go on vacation. Hint: the period between May to July is usually the best it will ever get from a W/L perspective. If the OP can't cut it by late July, that's a sign they need to leave ASAP.

2) Quit immediately and repay. If the net worth figures being thrown around are correct, this is feasible. You could also approach HR and tell them you made a mistake and try to negotiate a face- and wallet-saving exit. This may lead to a similar outcome as quitting but is worth a shot if you go that route.
fatFIRE
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by fatFIRE »

oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
WHAT??!!! SWE ICs do not get paid that much! You'll need to be top 0.5-0.1% even in FAANG to get that much.

I seriously doubt hedge funds are paying SWEs that much. That sounds more like the total comp for an experienced quant.
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by jibantik »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:08 pm
deanmoriarty wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:59 am
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
That data is correct (minus the net worth, which has taken a sad haircut). The new offer is for 1.2M a year, of course 80% of it being annual performance bonus that I’ll never get because there’s no way I’ll survive here. I asked them multiple times to screen me very well, and on my explicit request they gave me two different rounds of interviews, so I interviewed with more than 10 people. I was exactly worried of this: to come in and be expected to do wonders from day 1 due to the high pay. Even with all the precautions and extra scrutiny I asked from them, I failed to forecast how insane this environment is.

Thank you for all the replies. I might try to talk to someone who knows the law. This has been affecting my health already, I easily lost already 5+ lb due to sleep deprivation and the fact that I am eating just one meal a day on average. And yes, 100 hours is accurate.

Back to work..
OH.... I'm going to eat my words in the last post. OP, I thought you were moving from 100ish to 300ish. But 1.2 MIL???

No offense, but if your TC is >1mil as IC, you are ranked as top 0.5% of elite companies. As I said, you're distinguished engineer / tech fellow level. You are honestly not expected to "need" a mentor to help you. YOU are supposed to be the mentor. YOU are supposed to be #1 in your specialty. YOU are supposed to be second to none.
Yes lol that surprised me. What level of expertise is above 1.2 mil salary???
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by KyleAAA »

ponyboy wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:41 am What did you think would happen? You were going to get 3x the pay and have the same amount of work as before? Thats not how it works.

Do what others said...do not quit, let them fire you. Stop working 100 hour weeks. This is a good lesson. Grass is not always greener.

In tech, it's not unheard of to jump to 2x or 3x comp just by switching to a better paying company. Job description and responsibilities are identical. I've done it myself. So it wouldn't be at all unreasonable in this industry to expect about the same amount of work, or at most 10-20% more.
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by biturbo »

KyleAAA wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 2:07 am
ponyboy wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:41 am What did you think would happen? You were going to get 3x the pay and have the same amount of work as before? Thats not how it works.

Do what others said...do not quit, let them fire you. Stop working 100 hour weeks. This is a good lesson. Grass is not always greener.

In tech, it's not unheard of to jump to 2x or 3x comp just by switching to a better paying company. Job description and responsibilities are identical. I've done it myself. So it wouldn't be at all unreasonable in this industry to expect about the same amount of work, or at most 10-20% more.
Unheard of? No. Common? Certainly not. Especially going from $300-400k -> $1M+ - I'd venture there are very few people who do that in an IC role every year. Further, OP was going from the tech industry to an industry notorious for high pressure and long hours. I'm not saying that 100+ hour work weeks are reasonable or should be expected, but it would be foolish to expect the overall experience to be similar.
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Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by AD3 »

deanmoriarty wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:47 pm I have done a terrible, massive mistake.

I moved from a tech company in Silicon Valley to a hedge fund on the east coast, lured by the money (3x my current compensation if we include the bonus!). I relocated 3 weeks ago in a corporate housing rental, paid by them. Flight was expensed (business class), as well as other reimbursements.

In my decade of experience I have always been nothing but a stellar performer. When I started here, it was an immediate disaster. I haven’t even been given time to learn anything about the company, during the very first hour of work I was given tasks way above my level of expertise, with significant rush to deliver (“give me this by tomorrow?”). I haven’t even completed paperwork like payroll and insurance, I have had so much work to do it is insane. And, I am not able to deliver anything, I am not familiar with the systems and people expect me to know everything in the new environment. I can sense they are frustrated by my lack of knowledge, and there is no mentoring at all. My manager doesn’t exist, I have talked to them 15 minutes in two weeks.

In all the companies I’ve been at, people are given several weeks of slack to come up to speed, and someone to talk to daily for mentoring. Not here.

For the past two weeks I have been working 100 hours a week (yes, from 6am to 11pm and a good 10 hours every weekend day), I am going insane.

The interview feedback was extremely positive, they were looking for this position for a very long time (I am a specialist software engineer), and screened me well. I made sure to not oversell myself and was always honest when discussing my technical capabilities and projects, and yet I can’t get anything done. I would need at least 2-3 months where I just study the systems and come up to speed, with little work expected to be delivered.

How do I get out of this without having to pay a massive amount? As part of the offer I signed a clause saying I would have to repay the relocation expenses if I quit within a year, I thought “sure, I have never had a problem in any previous job, I won’t quit in a year!”. They put me in a very luxurious apartment in downtown, where rent is probably around $10k a month and they booked this place for 90 days...

This has been an insane nightmare and can’t believe it happened to me. For the 10 years of my career, I have been very much productive and always got promoted to lead positions quickly. I really don’t understand what went wrong.
OP is giving away too many details about this, I believe that I can guess where your place of employment is based on posting history. I hope you are able to work through this situation. Best of luck to you.
German Expat
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:49 pm

Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by German Expat »

You are not describing well well what your work environment is and what expertise your boss has in the tasks that are given to you. I work in management in IT and also used to run software development teams. One of my biggest struggles still is if we get requests from the business side they have a hard time understanding why it can't be done in 5 days rather then the 3 month we gave them and why it would not cost X rather then X "20.

So first of all do the people that give you the work understand how long things should take? I doubt it a bit in the high pressure environment you are in. They have problems to solve and need your support to solve them and probably all have too much on their plate and tight deadlines.

I agree with somebody else before that on the level you got hired they expect you to solve problems and not to be managed. You are supposed to figure out how to get things done but also do need to have the uncomfortable discussions with the requester why things can't be done or how if they change their request they could still get the results. What is your managers background? Does he have software development experience?

I know most of our software developers don't like to deal with business people and leave those uncomfortable discussions happily to me and complain afterwards why the business does not understand or value them. You don't work for a FAANG anymore where good software developers are rock stars. You are now in a (extremely well paid) support role.

So my recommendation is take a breath, take a weekend day off and figure out what the real problem is. As with most issues like this it is probably on both sides. The company not understanding how long it realistically takes to get things done but also you not being good in communication and avoiding uncomfortable discussions up front. If I give somebody that is highly paid and experienced a task and this person does not give me feedback that the task is not possible in the allocated time or proposes an alternate solution I assume everything is ok.
Jags4186
Posts: 5129
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Jags4186 »

oldfort wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:28 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:17 pm
oldfort wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:15 pm If I were you, I would quit. For me personally, no amount of money could be worth working 100 hour weeks. Assuming 100 hours isn't an exaggeration, how do you find time to sleep?
That’s only 14 hours/day. 10 hours left to do everything else.
You're supposed to get 8 hours of sleep a night. So the not working and not sleeping part of your day is 2 hours. If you spend 1 hour a day eating, the not working/not sleeping/not eating part of your day is 1 hour. If you take 30 minutes a day to dress/shave/shower, then you have 30 minutes free time each day to yourself. I don't know what the OP's situation is with the lockdowns, but if he has to commute, now or in the future, then he has less free time. That's insane.
You also forgot commute time. Even if he lives in Manhattan and works in Manhattan, unless he lives across the street from the office its at least another 30 minutes each way commute.
Topic Author
deanmoriarty
Posts: 355
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:19 am

Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by deanmoriarty »

fatFIRE wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:04 pm
oldfort wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am Based on earlier threads, it looks like the OP is 33 or 34, had a net worth of 2 million at one point, and was making 350k in tech, so might be making 700k-1M now.
WHAT??!!! SWE ICs do not get paid that much! You'll need to be top 0.5-0.1% even in FAANG to get that much.

I seriously doubt hedge funds are paying SWEs that much. That sounds more like the total comp for an experienced quant.
Believe it or not, they do! I am an IC expected to just be hands on in my area of expertise (cloud). I have no experience whatsoever with quant, trading or anything else financially related. However, in Silicon Valley the maximum offer I could get for my level was about 500k, hence I was captured by these crazy numbers.
Patzer
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:56 am

Re: Quitting a job after two weeks: relocation expenses

Post by Patzer »

Don't quit. Establish boundaries.

1. No you won't work 100 hours a week. For this type of position 50-60 is reasonable, and you should cap it in that range.

2. Them: Give me this by end of day.
You: Sure, I can get that to you by the end of the day, but I have 4 other things on my plate, which thing would you like me to take off my plate to get you your thing first?
Them: We need you to all of those things.
You: Okay, it will take 3 days.

3. In the future, ask specific questions about work life balance.
"When was your last vacation?"
"Now, as you think back to that vacation, how much work did you do on it?"
"When do you usually get home from work?"
etc.
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