Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

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bt365
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by bt365 »

My opinion. Many Americans are hung-up on driving a newer vehicle. Some lease, some buy, and many change their vehicles (end-of-lease or purchase) withing five-to-six years. Reliable, older, well-maintained vehicle means low annual registration tag fee, less cost to insure. Vehicle ownership can easily be one of your biggest income wasters. Run the numbers. If you already have an older reliable vehicle that has decent crash test rating - just keep driving it. Readings such as "The Millionaire Next Door", etc., expound on commonsense of spending as little as possible on vehicle ownership. I'm driving a sixteen year old Subaru Forester. My annual tag registration is almost nothing. Idea: Drive your personal vehicle less. Keep annual mileage usage down may lower your premium. For long drives (vacations, etc.) rent a vehicle and pay with CC that covers part of the required insurance at no cost to you.
Helo80
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Helo80 »

bt365 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:06 am My opinion. Many Americans are hung-up on driving a newer vehicle. Some lease, some buy, and many change their vehicles (end-of-lease or purchase) withing five-to-six years. Reliable, older, well-maintained vehicle means low annual registration tag fee, less cost to insure. Vehicle ownership can easily be one of your biggest income wasters. Run the numbers. If you already have an older reliable vehicle that has decent crash test rating - just keep driving it. Readings such as "The Millionaire Next Door", etc., expound on commonsense of spending as little as possible on vehicle ownership. I'm driving a sixteen year old Subaru Forester. My annual tag registration is almost nothing. Idea: Drive your personal vehicle less. Keep annual mileage usage down may lower your premium. For long drives (vacations, etc.) rent a vehicle and pay with CC that covers part of the required insurance at no cost to you.

Your comment is a good example of why it's so much fun to throw in the automotive grenades into BH/PF-type forums. You'll find a wide variety of opinions on vehicular ownership.

I think that you'll find the delta between leasing a 2020 Camry and owning a 2010 Corolla with 120k+ miles is not as great as you think.... certainly not to the extent that it's going to keep a BH from FIREing at 50 and having to work until 70+ YOA.... Certainly within the six-digit incomes and 7 to 8 digit net worths that many here have. (if this were the PF forum on reddit, I'd not be making this comment as that demographic skews much more heavily to the millenial generation trying to make ends meet, where this forum can easily be their parents/grandparents and have well-established careers/portfolios).
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vitaflo
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by vitaflo »

Dealerships don't make money off the car sale anymore, margins are very thin. They make their money off add-ons and their shop, as well as on financing. These aren't the old days anymore. Dealerships know people hate haggling and so they've turned to other avenues for income than the sale price. If you want to get a deal from a dealership, pay cash, don't add any extras to your vehicle, and don't take it to their service center.
Helo80
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Helo80 »

vitaflo wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:45 am Dealerships don't make money off the car sale anymore, margins are very thin. They make their money off add-ons and their shop, as well as on financing. These aren't the old days anymore. Dealerships know people hate haggling and so they've turned to other avenues for income than the sale price. If you want to get a deal from a dealership, pay cash, don't add any extras to your vehicle, and don't take it to their service center.
Wrong-O.

Which is worth more $40k from your bank account or $40k from a credit union?

it's better to finance and then pay off on the first bill or 90 days depending on when the captive lender does chargebacks for the financing kickbacks. Unless of course you really hate your dealership and small businesses. (Sometimes dealerships do do stuff that warrants this pettiness).
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Crow Hunter
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Crow Hunter »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:31 am
Crow Hunter wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:00 pm Maybe the 2021 Primes will be available at a reasonable price by then. Or a dealer wants to actually sell me a 2020 for what I think is a reasonable deal by then. :wink:
I'm going to be blunt.... and you remind me a lot of my dad in your comments on the auto market because he would make a lot of the same comments that you are making above.... but I do not think that you're an educated car buyer on what you are looking for.

Pre-COVID, Rav4 Hybrid's were among the hottest tickets on the Toyota dealership. In many markets, they were going for MSRP or MSRP + Small ADM.
Granted, COVID has brought down oil prices and there is always that direct correlation between hybrid sales and gas prices.

The Rav4 Prime promises more of the hybrid goodness and some EV capability. It's going to be a hot car to say the least. Granted, COVID and oil prices could completely skew demand on this... but this is not the first non-automotive forum I've read where people are inquiring about the Rav4 Prime.

The Rav4 is a terrific and solid vehicle. As I posted above, you're trying to buy the hottest car in America. You're making a good choice. But, you're not buying a FCA product where 15-20%+ off MSRP is norm.
Thank you for your evaluation of my education in relation to car buying.

I am very aware of the Hybrid premium for $2,400 additional MSRP and a $3-4k premium on selling prices and I am very aware of what the Prime is and what it offers along with the potential pricing factors along with potential $7,500 tax rebate. I am also keenly aware of potential defects with the gas filling and the 2020's tendency to drain the 12V when sitting for a while among other problems.

You are both making an assumption and jumping to conclusions about by education on the RAV4 TNGA platform and variations as well as my preference for buying a hybrid/Prime vs a gas model. My choice of the RAV4 is based on my experience as an engineer/manager in a Tier 1 Toyota supplier as well as my preference for their engine design versus their competitors direct injection among other factors dealing with their dealership network in my home area.

I am not in any hurry. Assuming Toyota fixes the phantom drain (maybe the electronic parking brake?) on the Hybrid designs and the 2021 Primes get the tax credit that brings the total cost to me down to a reasonable amount, I may get a Prime. If not, and the demand is there, the gas model discounts might be larger and I will go with a gas model.

Thanks for your insight into my education and the vagaries of purchasing a new car.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Helo80 »

Crow Hunter wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:39 am I keep reading online about how "Car dealers are hurting", "No one is buying cars", "Now is a great time to buy a car".
That is called click-bait. Individually, you will probably find good to great deals from a month or two on slow moving inventory. The 5th generation Rav4 is a solid compact SUV. It's righfully the number one selling car in America.
Crow Hunter wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:39 am But either of these options implies that they aren't doing as desperate as implied as I would think someone in need of cash to stay afloat would be willing to make a 15-20% off MSRP deal, not the same 4%-7% off MSRP offered in Jan.
You can continue to shop around and mine data from Rav4 forums on what dealerships are selling cars for what now... it is after all the number one selling SUV/car in America.... but again, it's Toyota and hence the Toyota-tax. Toyota is not going to have Hyundai/Kia or FCA pricing games.

I think 15-20% off MSRP is always going to be a tough position on a Toyota unless your region has the stars align on incentives for something on the dealership lot you want and the dealer wants gone.

Crow Hunter wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:29 pm There is a dealer that is about a hour and a half away that has not one but two 2019 RAV 4 Adventure models still on the lot. Their advertised internet price is what they will sell it for. Not interested in negotiating at all. 10% off MSRP and that is it.
Correct. 10% off MSRP and you're starting to enter invoice to sub-invoice pricing across the board. We'd have to configure your ideal Rav4 build with options to determine where invoice sits. My 2020 Highlander is on order and is roughly 10% off. I think a bit more, but I'm not calculating it.

Crow Hunter wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm I am very aware of the Hybrid premium for $2,400 additional MSRP and a $3-4k premium on selling prices and I am very aware of what the Prime is and what it offers along with the potential pricing factors along with potential $7,500 tax rebate. I am also keenly aware of potential defects with the gas filling and the 2020's tendency to drain the 12V when sitting for a while among other problems.
Then, you're aware the Prime is likely to be a hot-selling item.... why would you say the comment that follows this paragraph? Toyota has had difficulty keeping the Rav4 Hybrid on dealer lots. I'm sure the average lot time for a Rav4 Hybrid is under 7 days across the country.

AFAIK --- I did not address the TNGA platform nor differences between the gas/hybrid versions. Strictly, my comments revolved around the Rav4 Hybrid being a very hot item that is going for MSRP or slightly above MSRP in many markets. Toyota underestimated demand IMHO. When I go to the dealership and see Rav4's, they're always gas models.
Crow Hunter wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:00 pm Maybe the 2021 Primes will be available at a reasonable price by then. Or a dealer wants to actually sell me a 2020 for what I think is a reasonable deal by then. :wink:
I am curious what you mean by "reasonable" when you're stating above that 15-20% off MSRP for a Rav4 is potentially doable?
Crow Hunter wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:00 pm My choice of the RAV4 is based on my experience as an engineer/manager in a Tier 1 Toyota supplier as well as my preference for their engine design versus their competitors direct injection among other factors dealing with their dealership network in my home area.
Have you tried this?
http://www.toyotasupplierpurchase.com/
Crow Hunter wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:39 am So, what does the B.org think is going on?
BH and PF-forums tend to skew on being anti-car and buying the bare minimum to get around as car ownership can be an unnecessary drain. The sheer number of times I've read here that, "for the best deal, pay in cash," has led me to believe that this group while great for building a 2-4 fund portfolio, does not have the foggiest idea of how new car sales work other than old myths/stereotypes that their parents told them.

I'm not particularly surprised by the responses you're getting from local dealerships. Sorry.
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bt365
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by bt365 »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:34 am
bt365 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:06 am My opinion. Many Americans are hung-up on driving a newer vehicle. Some lease, some buy, and many change their vehicles (end-of-lease or purchase) withing five-to-six years. Reliable, older, well-maintained vehicle means low annual registration tag fee, less cost to insure. Vehicle ownership can easily be one of your biggest income wasters. Run the numbers. If you already have an older reliable vehicle that has decent crash test rating - just keep driving it. Readings such as "The Millionaire Next Door", etc., expound on commonsense of spending as little as possible on vehicle ownership. I'm driving a sixteen year old Subaru Forester. My annual tag registration is almost nothing. Idea: Drive your personal vehicle less. Keep annual mileage usage down may lower your premium. For long drives (vacations, etc.) rent a vehicle and pay with CC that covers part of the required insurance at no cost to you.

Your comment is a good example of why it's so much fun to throw in the automotive grenades into BH/PF-type forums. You'll find a wide variety of opinions on vehicular ownership.

I think that you'll find the delta between leasing a 2020 Camry and owning a 2010 Corolla with 120k+ miles is not as great as you think.... certainly not to the extent that it's going to keep a BH from FIREing at 50 and having to work until 70+ YOA.... Certainly within the six-digit incomes and 7 to 8 digit net worths that many here have. (if this were the PF forum on reddit, I'd not be making this comment as that demographic skews much more heavily to the millenial generation trying to make ends meet, where this forum can easily be their parents/grandparents and have well-established careers/portfolios).
If my post hits home for BH who is not well off, who's going back and forth on spending a lot on a new vehicle, I've done my good deed for the day. Nothing I said hasn't been heard by most people past their younger years. Your points about whether I am posting on wrong forum are well taken. Can't disagree with what you said. Ultimately people (BH or not) will make their own choices be they smart or not so smart.
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Crow Hunter
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Crow Hunter »

I have a target price in mind of what I want to pay for a new RAV4 whether it be a 2020 gas model or a 2021 Prime. Of course I expect to pay more for the Prime and I am willing to, assuming the $7,500 credit applies and the quoted mileage will let me drive to work and back in EV most of the time. I would prefer to buy a Prime but I am perfectly willing to buy a 2020 gas or hybrid model should the deal be good enough. I can't justify the hybrid premium based on my driving level unless gas gets over $4.00/gal. (70/30 hwy/city driving) But if I could get it at a reasonable enough discount, it might be worth it.

I started shopping in January so that I could get a good idea of what a "good price" would be. Right now, the price I was quoted for existing 1-2 month old inventory at my local dealer is exactly the same as what it was in January. Which caught me by surprise. I was expecting at least a little movement. I was really struck that a 2019 Adventure (they have 2 of them) is only 10% off the MSRP with no hints of any haggling on the price.

I live in the Southeast which is pretty much controlled by a single Toyota distributor which undoubtedly affects pricing to an extent. Our pricing here is usually more than in other parts of the country due to the captive/cartel style hold.

No harm in waiting. I don't take it as a personal insult if a dealer isn't willing to work with me.

Supplier pricing isn't really the best deal you can get most of the time.
mr_kprince
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by mr_kprince »

Slightly off-topic...but during slow selling times like these...a Dealership worth their salt will pump in a VIN to conduct any Safety Re-Call notice. Keeps the Service Department up and running/viable anyway.

Also I think it best to buy new and live with the circumstances. Even though the second you drive it off the Lot...it depreciates greatly.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by arsenalfan »

I am RAV4 Prime curious.
What's your guesstimate for OTD price?
And what is the fed credit expected to be - $7500? Not sure how far Toyota is to 200k ecars
BH+
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by BH+ »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:38 am
BH+ wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:39 pm I suspect the best deals will come from used cars in the near future, especially from luxury brands. Many buyers overextended themselves; those cars will end up on the lots of dealerships that would be eager to offload them.
Your comment is partly why it's never a bad idea to consider leasing a luxury car.
That has been my experience too. Leasing often gets talked down, but there are many circumstances in which it could work as well as cash or finance. A few years ago I had a German car that I bought cash. I traded it in for my current car after 4 years. When I did the math comparing leasing (at the prevailing rates of the time) and the depreciation I took, it was a wash (within $500 for the four years).
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Crow Hunter
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Crow Hunter »

arsenalfan wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:09 pm I am RAV4 Prime curious.
What's your guesstimate for OTD price?
And what is the fed credit expected to be - $7500? Not sure how far Toyota is to 200k ecars
I am not sure. The predictions I have seen on RAV specific forums are more expensive than a XSE but less than a Limited. :)

No one knows for sure if it will qualify because it hasn't officially released but based on the expected battery size it would meet the requirements for the $7,500 rebate. I am not sure how many total EV Toyota has made up to this point.

I love the idea of it and I want one IF it meets expectations AND qualifies for the rebate AND meets the 39 mile EV range AND is reasonably priced. But all of that is up in the air right now but it was supposed to go on sale in the summer. I would think that info would drop for sure in June and maybe in May.

But with C-19, who knows when it will actually release.
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ladders11
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by ladders11 »

Barron's posted that used car prices have "cratered" citing something called the Mannheim Used Vehicle Index - which declined 11% from March, and is "down roughly 10% year over year". Pretty good support for those of us who feel it's a good time to buy used.

Also, for every car you're guaranteed two transactions: the purchase and the sale. Each will be driven by supply and demand. Each will be annoying. It's the same for leasing, except they're putting ink to some estimates about the second transaction and padding two deals at once with profit and interest.

Certain vehicles that have an excellent reputation and represent a good fit for many types of buyer - Rav4, Outback, etc - have a recent history of great resale prices, so one have could bought new and received a decent purchase price no matter how long they owned the vehicle. Most vehicles were not that way. It's unclear if the same dynamic will continue going forward - especially now that Rav4 new prices are higher.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by 02nz »

arsenalfan wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:09 pm I am RAV4 Prime curious.
What's your guesstimate for OTD price?
And what is the fed credit expected to be - $7500? Not sure how far Toyota is to 200k ecars
I read somewhere $37XXX to start but can't find the source and it almost certainly wasn't official information, as there would be a Toyota press release. It will definitely qualify for the full $7500 tax credit, assuming rules aren't changed. Apparently through mid-2019 just over 100K Toyotas had gotten the incentive, so there's plenty of room left, given that AFAIK the only current qualifying Toyota is the Prius Prime.
Helo80
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Helo80 »

ladders11 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:53 pm Barron's posted that used car prices have "cratered" citing something called the Mannheim Used Vehicle Index - which declined 11% from March, and is "down roughly 10% year over year". Pretty good support for those of us who feel it's a good time to buy used.

I was going to post an addendum to my more lengthy post above... but that's where OP's concern should be more so right now. This is assuming OP has a trade. Personally, I don't necessarily want to get involved with a private sale. But, some craigslist and facebook market cars all day long and do fine.

Mannheim is the major auto auction broker. Though, we as consumers do not have access to their auction data. Myself included here. Though, I'm hearing like you said.... 10%+ across the board decline in average auction data. Therefore, dealers are going to be lowering trades across the board especially if the vehicle they accept is not going to be retailed.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by aaronjb_ME »

arf30 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:15 am Deals are just starting to pop up for low volume luxury sports cars. I think there will eventually be deals on mass market models like Camry/Corolla, but not for a few months.
This is a market I follow loosely, especially with a couple of manufacturers. Some of of the prices I've seen in private sales are the lowest they've been in a few years, and dealership prices are starting to trend downward as well.

There are very few vehicles I'd park money in as an investment, and the ones that I would are a few orders of magnitude out of my reach. However, if luxury sports cars from European brands are a hobby and a target for some discretionary spending, and not just a means of transportation, then deals are coming up.

I used an intermediary for my last car purchase. He handled the negotiations and everything up to the point of paperwork. It was well worth the fee I paid, given the time I saved and stress I avoided.

This is pretty far off the beaten path for the OP, though.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by arsenalfan »

02nz wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:21 pm
arsenalfan wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:09 pm I am RAV4 Prime curious.
What's your guesstimate for OTD price?
And what is the fed credit expected to be - $7500? Not sure how far Toyota is to 200k ecars
I read somewhere $37XXX to start but can't find the source and it almost certainly wasn't official information, as there would be a Toyota press release. It will definitely qualify for the full $7500 tax credit, assuming rules aren't changed. Apparently through mid-2019 just over 100K Toyotas had gotten the incentive, so there's plenty of room left, given that AFAIK the only current qualifying Toyota is the Prius Prime.
Thanks. $31-33k otd after tax credit isn't too shabby.
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CULater
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

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You gotta figure that every smuck in the world who wants a car is out there thinking they can drive a hard bargain now. The dealerships must just smile when another one rolls out from under the rock. They've got this figured. Is this a good time to be a Grand Negotiator?
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Helo80
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Helo80 »

CULater wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:57 pm You gotta figure that every smuck in the world who wants a car is out there thinking they can drive a hard bargain now. The dealerships must just smile when another one rolls out from under the rock. They've got this figured. Is this a good time to be a Grand Negotiator?
You have to think about it... most BHs buy maybe a new car once every 3 years (being generous and assuming a car lease).... Car dealerships are pros and sales managers are approving/disapproving deals every day.
packerguy
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by packerguy »

A new cash for clunkers program may be coming.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/cash-fo ... car-deals/
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by CULater »

My choice of the RAV4 is based on my experience as an engineer/manager in a Tier 1 Toyota supplier as well as my preference for their engine design versus their competitors direct injection among other factors dealing with their dealership network in my home area.
Man, I'm glad to hear you confirm what I've said about DI engines and why the Toyota duel-injection engine is a better design. Couldn't agree more!
On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
sd323232
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by sd323232 »

same here. went to find a good deal on a car just for the heck of it, and non of the dealerships are selling any lower than they were selling before coronavirus. i think all those articles about car prices going down are fake, you will not find a good deal right now.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Pomegranate »

BH+ wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:24 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:38 am
BH+ wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:39 pm I suspect the best deals will come from used cars in the near future, especially from luxury brands. Many buyers overextended themselves; those cars will end up on the lots of dealerships that would be eager to offload them.
Your comment is partly why it's never a bad idea to consider leasing a luxury car.
That has been my experience too. Leasing often gets talked down, but there are many circumstances in which it could work as well as cash or finance. A few years ago I had a German car that I bought cash. I traded it in for my current car after 4 years. When I did the math comparing leasing (at the prevailing rates of the time) and the depreciation I took, it was a wash (within $500 for the four years).
Love leasing. Consider it as an extended test drive to avoid issues like uncomfy seats or oil-in-engine situation with Honda. :sharebeer
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Pomegranate »

CULater wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:57 pm You gotta figure that every smuck in the world who wants a car is out there thinking they can drive a hard bargain now. The dealerships must just smile when another one rolls out from under the rock. They've got this figured. Is this a good time to be a Grand Negotiator?
I'm always ready for a great deal (20-25% off MSRP) :sharebeer No deals - will keep squeezing miles out of the current car until it rusts out.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by CULater »

I'm old enough to remember the pain from making investments that I thought were no-brainers based on the news of the day. Bought oil when we were going to war with Iraq, for example, and got hosed. What I learned over time is that by the time bozos like me hear about it, the opportunity is already gone. I'm the guy buying the stuff that somebody else got into and is now making money off the bozos.

This idea that we can make money off car dealers because of the coronavirus crisis is bozo-think. If there was an opportunity, it's gone now and you're the sucker. Auto dealers have this completely under control. They're the House and you are the Bozo.

If I did anything now, it wouldn't be anything more effortful than throwing out lowball offers online. Who knows?
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by TallBoy29er »

harrychan wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:31 pm In a similar position. I was intending to buy a new Outback. More and more dealers are refusing to put the OTD in writing as they will know it will be matched and lowered by another dealer. Out of all of the dealers around my area (around 8), only 3 gave OTD over email. I can probably get a good deal if I go in person but its something I don't want to do at under the circumstances. I also have zero need for a 2nd car as we barely go out.
Interesting. We have had different experiences, which is entirely possible based on geography I would think. We bought a Forester, and I was able to get OTD prices, online/email, from all of them. That said, if I lived in the mid-west, I could see how Subaru dealers would not play that game based on the demand out there.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Starfish »

BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
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ladders11
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by ladders11 »

Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
I'm a big fan of sitting in the driver's seat of various cars at an auto show - comfort and visibility are big factors. Actual test driving experience not critical but I've driven many different cars and know enough about specs to know how they'll drive.
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by grettman »

Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
+1. 11 Years ago I bought my tacoma without test driving it. It has performed well.

Speaking of which, Toyota is offering 0% interest for 60 months on new Tacos. I don't track this sort of thing but it is the first time I have heard of Tacomas having an incentive like this...
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

grettman wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:59 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
+1. 11 Years ago I bought my tacoma without test driving it. It has performed well.

Speaking of which, Toyota is offering 0% interest for 60 months on new Tacos. I don't track this sort of thing but it is the first time I have heard of Tacomas having an incentive like this...
I keep seeing ads, on Kia or Hyundai I think, for zero interest for 84 months and no payments for the first six months. So the deal on the Tacoma is bad compared to that. That being said, my real point is anyone who has to finance for 84 months...sounds like 90 months till paid off if I understand this correctly...shouldn't be buying the car in the first place. I know I changed your point...just a related thing that bothers me...90 month car loans.
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

CULater wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:50 pm
This idea that we can make money off car dealers because of the coronavirus crisis is bozo-think. If there was an opportunity, it's gone now and you're the sucker. Auto dealers have this completely under control. They're the House and you are the Bozo.
+1 I'm laughing. I am guessing we'll see a little car price deflation in a few months when too much inventory in the pipeline, mainly on dealer lots, will lead to manufacturer price reductions via rebates and subsidized leases. Even then your used car will be worth less. But the idea that right now you can snatch some sort of super-deal is few and far between.
jebmke
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by jebmke »

ladders11 wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:53 pm Actual test driving experience not critical but I've driven many different cars and know enough about specs to know how they'll drive
For me, test drive needs to be more than around the neighborhood. Extended test of Honda demonstrated to me that the seats were so uncomfortable the car was a no go. Discomfort often doesn’t show up until in the car for quite some time.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
Yanks49
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Yanks49 »

packerguy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:45 am A new cash for clunkers program may be coming.

I hope not in the same way it was done before. Net result was those with money ended up hurting small used car dealers and those without money missing out on lower priced vehicles available. If they are going to do something like that, it needs to be set up differently, like not destroying the "clunkers", but I don't know what else would need to change.
hudson
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by hudson »

Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
Starfish, anything that works is good technique!
I want to test drive any new vehicle as there are a few things I want to check.
How quick it will do a u-turn.
How the door lock system works.
I want to look under the hood and see how to check stuff.
I want to check all mirrors and blind spots.
I want to see the storage spaces, the spare, and the glove box.
I want to see how hard it will be to make a mountain bike fit inside.
I want to see how hard it is to get into.
bob60014
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by bob60014 »

hudson wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:38 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
Starfish, anything that works is good technique!
I want to test drive any new vehicle as there are a few things I want to check.
How quick it will do a u-turn.
How the door lock system works.
I want to look under the hood and see how to check stuff.
I want to check all mirrors and blind spots.
I want to see the storage spaces, the spare, and the glove box.
I want to see how hard it will be to make a mountain bike fit inside.
I want to see how hard it is to get into.
After I narrow down my search, I'll rent a car for a day or two before I purchase. I can explore the workings of the vehicle and drive it at my own pace without having a salesperson breathing down my back to rush back to close a deal. Its $30-$50 well spent.
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

bob60014 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:54 am
hudson wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:38 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
Starfish, anything that works is good technique!
I want to test drive any new vehicle as there are a few things I want to check.
How quick it will do a u-turn.
How the door lock system works.
I want to look under the hood and see how to check stuff.
I want to check all mirrors and blind spots.
I want to see the storage spaces, the spare, and the glove box.
I want to see how hard it will be to make a mountain bike fit inside.
I want to see how hard it is to get into.
After I narrow down my search, I'll rent a car for a day or two before I purchase. I can explore the workings of the vehicle and drive it at my own pace without having a salesperson breathing down my back to rush back to close a deal. Its $30-$50 well spent.
I suggest Lysol-ing down any rental car. Including the seat fabric.
Starfish
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Starfish »

hudson wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:38 am
Starfish wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm
BeerTooth wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:47 am heard an ad on the radio this morning from a large local dealer offering a new program "fully online" purchase. "no need to step foot on the dealer lot"
I can't imagine dropping $30k on a vehicle without at least test-driving it...but maybe some people will?

Although I test drove all the cars I bought, I found zero value in that.
Starfish, anything that works is good technique!
I want to test drive any new vehicle as there are a few things I want to check.
How quick it will do a u-turn.
How the door lock system works.
I want to look under the hood and see how to check stuff.
I want to check all mirrors and blind spots.
I want to see the storage spaces, the spare, and the glove box.
I want to see how hard it will be to make a mountain bike fit inside.
I want to see how hard it is to get into.

None of these requires driving the car.
Except the major physical stuff (how do I fit in the car, which realistically might be a problem only in a Lotus, and can be tested without turning the car on), most things can be found in a data sheet or reviews. And the reviewers are much better than me at identifying the good and bad with a car. I found in the past that driving around the block with a salesman next to me does not give me a reliable impression even about driving qualities.
Adding to many criteria will make me just be more confused. I want to keep it simple. There are very few things of importance and for the rest I will be the one adapting to the car.
I cannot conceive that I will refuse buying a car that drives great and has a good price point because I don't like how the locks work or how big is the glove box.
VanGuppy
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by VanGuppy »

Leesbro63 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:37 am
I keep seeing ads, on Kia or Hyundai I think, for zero interest for 84 months and no payments for the first six months. So the deal on the Tacoma is bad compared to that. That being said, my real point is anyone who has to finance for 84 months...sounds like 90 months till paid off if I understand this correctly...shouldn't be buying the car in the first place. I know I changed your point...just a related thing that bothers me...90 month car loans.
When I bought my current Honda in 2011 I got 5 year 0.9% mfg loan, but paid it off within 2 years.
andypanda
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by andypanda »

"I suggest Lysol-ing down any rental car. Including the seat fabric."

A large Toyota dealer here - Richmond VA - is advertising that they will bring the test drive to you and let you watch them disinfect the keys and the car. You can drive it around and take it back to the dealership or they will return later and pick it up.

They've also been advertising that they will pick up your car for service within a 10 mile radius and return it. Too bad we're 20 away.

Fwiw, it's where we bought our '16 4Runner and Avalon. I managed to get 9.1% off my '16 4Runner Trail Premium with KDSS and 16% off my wife's Avalon Touring including the $3k factory rebate. Both had less than 3 miles and both deals were cash with no trade and took about an hour. The salesman asked if I had any friends with checkbooks like mine. :) I'm old and dealers have never wanted to make a deal. You just have to be serious and friendly, get to the point, and be prepared to walk out with a smile. My checkbook is portable.
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

andypanda wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:14 pm. You just have to be serious and friendly, get to the point, and be prepared to walk out with a smile. My checkbook is portable.
That's my attitude too. Truthfully I disagree with some who post here who have a "let's grind down the dealer for the last penny or abruptly take my toys and go home" attitude. I want to get a "near best" deal but am OK if it's not the "beat them into the ground" deal. Yes, I distrust car dealers. But I maintain a friendly attitude and don't waste their time. I try to find what I'm looking for on the internet before I go to a dealer. So I'm pretty much ready to buy when I get there. Either they'll make a deal I believe is good, based on internet information, or they don't and, like you, I'll politely be on my way to the next one. In all honesty, in this day and age of information, they know what the market is and I do too. And once they know that I know, it's either sit or get off the pot.
VanGuppy
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by VanGuppy »

FWIW : Just saw a Toyota TV ad for 0% financing on Camry and RAV4. Probably doesn't include any discount off MRSP.
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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

Just another data point. I test drove a Mazda CX-5 earlier this year but wanted to do more research. They are now offering 0% financing up to 5-6 years I think plus 90 days of no payments FWIW. Probably trying to move inventory. Holding off for now. :|
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

VanGuppy wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:54 pm FWIW : Just saw a Toyota TV ad for 0% financing on Camry and RAV4. Probably doesn't include any discount off MRSP.
Right. The real question for many of us is the price for cash buyers.
bsteiner
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by bsteiner »

Leesbro63 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:40 am
VanGuppy wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:54 pm FWIW : Just saw a Toyota TV ad for 0% financing on Camry and RAV4. Probably doesn't include any discount off MRSP.
Right. The real question for many of us is the price for cash buyers.
At least where I am, you can get $1,500 cash in lieu of the 0% for 5 years.

They had something similar 6 years ago when I bought one and the dealer said most people took the 0% financing.
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

bsteiner wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:37 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:40 am
VanGuppy wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:54 pm FWIW : Just saw a Toyota TV ad for 0% financing on Camry and RAV4. Probably doesn't include any discount off MRSP.
Right. The real question for many of us is the price for cash buyers.
At least where I am, you can get $1,500 cash in lieu of the 0% for 5 years.

They had something similar 6 years ago when I bought one and the dealer said most people took the 0% financing.
That’s America. Payment oriented.
eldinerocheapo
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by eldinerocheapo »

Might I suggest focusing on a 2019 model closeout? We negotiated a tremendous deal with one dealer, when three other dealers informed us the price quoted was bogus. Prior to closing the deal, I advised that I was bringing one pre filled check , and there would be no room for add ons, hidden charges, or upselling. They agreed on everything, and we closed it out to the satisfaction of all concerned. A brand new Dodge Ram 1500 now resides in my driveway.
"Dream, Dare, Do."
hudson
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by hudson »

eldinerocheapo wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:22 am Might I suggest focusing on a 2019 model closeout? We negotiated a tremendous deal with one dealer, when three other dealers informed us the price quoted was bogus. Prior to closing the deal, I advised that I was bringing one pre filled check , and there would be no room for add ons, hidden charges, or upselling. They agreed on everything, and we closed it out to the satisfaction of all concerned. A brand new Dodge Ram 1500 now resides in my driveway.
Great negotiation!
You found a dealer that wanted to make a deal and move a truck.
You made sure that the deal was accurate before you went to the dealer.
It pays to shop around!
Leesbro63
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by Leesbro63 »

eldinerocheapo wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:22 am Might I suggest focusing on a 2019 model closeout? We negotiated a tremendous deal with one dealer, when three other dealers informed us the price quoted was bogus. Prior to closing the deal, I advised that I was bringing one pre filled check , and there would be no room for add ons, hidden charges, or upselling. They agreed on everything, and we closed it out to the satisfaction of all concerned. A brand new Dodge Ram 1500 now resides in my driveway.
With all due respect, Chrysler products generally can be found with great discounts without too much hard shopping.
campy2010
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by campy2010 »

I have noticed some movement in the used car market. I have been in the market for 2017-2018 Mazda CX-5s and the online prices have dropped by about 10-15% (from ~$21k to $19.5k). I think the online price drops reflects that used car dealers once had a philosophy of putting up a slightly marked up price online thinking the buyer would negotiate down. Now I see nearly the same price for the same Make/Model advertised by most dealers. This is a good trend in my book because used cars being priced correctly makes shopping easier. No need to waste time finding out whether the seller will negotiate the price or not.
capran
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Re: Car Dealers not really wanting to make a deal

Post by capran »

Does your local dealer offer the Costco deal? For our last three cars over the last 15 years we called the dealer and asked if they will match or do better than the Costco program. We are shown the invoice and pay no more than 500 over invoice, which is usually substantially lower than the MSRP. No hassle, no back and forth BS, just a straight forward purchase. Have done this with Subaru Outback and Forrester models.
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