2020 estimated tax dates

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knpstr
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2020 estimated tax dates

Post by knpstr »

I see per the IRS Q1 estimated taxes don't need to be paid until July 15th, 2020.

I see nothing of Q2 tax date being changed (June). It would seem unlikely that Q2 will be required to be paid before Q1.

Has anyone read anything on this yet? Or are Q1 and Q2 just both going to be due July 15th?
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Gill
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by Gill »

From all I've been able to find it appears your are correct, i.e., the second payment is due June 15th before the first which is due July 15th. With the third being September 15th there will be three payments in three months.
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jebmke
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by jebmke »

The IRS guidance specifies that Q1 may be delayed to July 15. Therefore, since there is no reference to the Q2 payment it remains due on or before June 15.
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sport
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by sport »

Is it permitted to pay the entire estimate in the first payment, and then make no other payments until taxes are filed?
Gill
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by Gill »

sport wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:05 am Is it permitted to pay the entire estimate in the first payment, and then make no other payments until taxes are filed?
Yes, absolutely. I've had many clients do just that to get it out of the way for the year. This year you could pay it all in June.
Gill
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harmony
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by harmony »

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-and ... nd-answers
Q16. The Notice postpones the deadline for first quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments due on April 15, 2020. What about second quarter estimated tax payments due on June 15? Have they been postponed as well?

A16. No, second quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments are still due on June 15, 2020. First quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments are postponed from April 15 to July 15, 2020.
sport
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by sport »

Gill wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:08 am
sport wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:05 am Is it permitted to pay the entire estimate in the first payment, and then make no other payments until taxes are filed?
Yes, absolutely. I've had many clients do just that to get it out of the way for the year. This year you could pay it all in June.
Gill
Since the first payment is not due until July 15, can I wait until then, or would that make the second payment late?
jebmke
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by jebmke »

IMO, that would make the second payment late.
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Gill
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by Gill »

jebmke wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:25 am IMO, that would make the second payment late.
Correct. If making all in one payment it would need to be paid by June 15th, otherwise you would be late on the June payment. Ignore the fact that June is normally the second payment. For 2020, you have four payments due in June, July, September and January.
Gill
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TheTimeLord
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by TheTimeLord »

After figuring out how much interest I would earn then deducting the tax paid on that interest I think I am likely going to go ahead and pay my Q1 taxes on April 15 just for the peace of mind of having it done. Besides seems like the government could use the money.
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lstone19
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by lstone19 »

When you file your return, the penalty calculation done on Form 2210 treats all payments in the order they were made. There is no designating a payment as being for a particular quarter and any excess or deficit in one quarter carries forward to the next one due. So the postponement of making tax payments due on 4/15 now due on 7/15 has effectively made the 1st quarter due on 6/15 and the 2nd quarter due on 7/15. Unless you file 2210-AI (Annualized Income), the same amount is due each quarter so it really doesn't matter what quarter you call them - 25% is due on 6/15 and another 25% on 7/15. As for 2210-AI, it's usually something people work on at year-end in order to reduce or eliminate a penalty - no point in going through the work if you already have no penalty; for now, the safe course is probably to think in terms of not doing 2210-AI and pay based on what your full-year estimate will be.
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WoodSpinner
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by WoodSpinner »

But keep in mind your state payments as well. In my case,CA, Q1,2,&3 Payment’s are different percentages.

:oops:

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mcraepat9
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by mcraepat9 »

IRS expressly stated that Q2 estimated tax payment stays at June 15:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-and ... nd-answers

Q16. The Notice postpones the deadline for first quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments due on April 15, 2020. What about second quarter estimated tax payments due on June 15? Have they been postponed as well?

A16. No, second quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments are still due on June 15, 2020. First quarter 2020 estimated income tax payments are postponed from April 15 to July 15, 2020.

***

Note that California has extended Q2 estimated tax payment to July 15:

https://www.ftb.ca.gov/about-ftb/newsro ... demic.html

03/18/2020

Sacramento – The Franchise Tax Board (FTB) today announced updated special tax relief for all California taxpayers due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

FTB is postponing until July 15 the filing and payment deadlines for all individuals and business entities for:

2019 tax returns
2019 tax return payments
2020 1st and 2nd quarter estimate payments
2020 LLC taxes and fees
2020 Non-wage withholding payments
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chicagoan23
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by chicagoan23 »

Illinois estimated tax payments for 1st quarter 2020 are still due on April 15. Here's the latest guidance.
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Flora
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by Flora »

Here's an idea: extend your federal return and make your July 15 extension payment larger by adding your 2020 federal 1st and 2nd quarter payments to it. Then file your federal 2019 return by October 15 and apply the overpayment to 2020.
JackoC
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by JackoC »

lstone19 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:16 pm When you file your return, the penalty calculation done on Form 2210 treats all payments in the order they were made. There is no designating a payment as being for a particular quarter and any excess or deficit in one quarter carries forward to the next one due. So the postponement of making tax payments due on 4/15 now due on 7/15 has effectively made the 1st quarter due on 6/15 and the 2nd quarter due on 7/15.
In substance, sure. But according to what the IRS actually said in link other poster provided, I'd mail in Voucher 2 in June and Voucher 1 in July. If I was mailing them, actually I'll pay w/ credit card with cashback > convenience fee. Actually NY State estimated income tax vouchers (which I prepare for my kids) don't have the quarter number on them like federal and NJ ones do.
newacct
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by newacct »

I believe that the fact that the 2nd quarter due date is before the 1st quarter due date is only relevant if you want to use the "Short Method" for calculating the underpayment penalty on Form 2210, because the Short Method is only applicable if all 4 payments are equal, so you cannot count the 2nd quarter payment as part of the 1st quarter payment.

But if you are able to use the "Regular Method" for calculating the underpayment penalty on Form 2210, which works for unequal quarterly payments, then, effectively, you can consider the due date for 1st quarter and 2nd quarter to both be July 15. This is because, in the Regular Method, anything paid before the 1st quarter due date (July 15) can be counted under the 1st quarter, and anything "surplus" from 1st quarter is automatically rolled over into 2nd quarter, so if you pay the amount that you need to pay for 1st quarter and 2nd quarter by July 15, then there will be no underpayment for 2nd quarter. I suspect that when they make the 2020 Form 2210, for the Regular Method, they will count any payment that is dated by July 15 is counted under 1st quarter, and no payment will be counted under 2nd quarter, and payments from July 15 to September 15 will be counted under 3rd quarter, etc.
lstone19
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by lstone19 »

newacct wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm I believe that the fact that the 2nd quarter due date is before the 1st quarter due date is only relevant if you want to use the "Short Method" for calculating the underpayment penalty on Form 2210, because the Short Method is only applicable if all 4 payments are equal, so you cannot count the 2nd quarter payment as part of the 1st quarter payment.

But if you are able to use the "Regular Method" for calculating the underpayment penalty on Form 2210, which works for unequal quarterly payments, then, effectively, you can consider the due date for 1st quarter and 2nd quarter to both be July 15. This is because, in the Regular Method, anything paid before the 1st quarter due date (July 15) can be counted under the 1st quarter, and anything "surplus" from 1st quarter is automatically rolled over into 2nd quarter, so if you pay the amount that you need to pay for 1st quarter and 2nd quarter by July 15, then there will be no underpayment for 2nd quarter. I suspect that when they make the 2020 Form 2210, for the Regular Method, they will count any payment that is dated by July 15 is counted under 1st quarter, and no payment will be counted under 2nd quarter, and payments from July 15 to September 15 will be counted under 3rd quarter, etc.
While you are correct that the "short method" requires equal payments, I disagree with your phrasing "if you are able to use the 'Regular Method'". You can always use the regular method as the short method is just a simplification of the regular method and under normal circumstances, there's no point in using the regular method if you made equal payments. That said, since some changes will be needed in 2210 this year, I cannot imagine a scenario where a penalty results under the short method but would not under the regular method. But keep in mind that very few people (or software) ever fills out a 2210. Unless you mark one of the exception reasons, the IRS asks you not to do so and let them figure the penalty. Mostly, tax software does a penalty calculation in the background and if there's no penalty, that's the end of it.

My expectation for the 2210 regular method this year is that there will still be four due dates and because they must be in sequence for carry-forwards to work, will be 6/15, 7/15, 9/15, and 1/15. But your (newacct's) idea is interesting but it creates a defacto both 1st and 2nd are due on 7/15 as anything before 7/15 would have to be considered 1st quarter with any excess carrying over to the already past due 2nd quarter (so the only thing applied to 2nd quarter will be a carry-over from the 1st quarter as there will be no date on which a payment could be considered 2nd quarter without it also being 1st quarter). It's only on vouchers that a quarter is specified; payment by any other method is just on a given date with no quarter specified.

And while newacct's idea is interesting, I will be playing it safe and making our first payment on 6/15 with the second one on 7/15, both via EFTPS so there will be no vouchers saying what quarter it's for.
GeraniumLover
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by GeraniumLover »

I make estimated tax payments based on actual amounts received through my sole proprietorship. So this would seem to mean that on June 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in April and May, and on July 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in January-March. Seems odd, but OK.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by TheTimeLord »

TheTimeLord wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:33 am After figuring out how much interest I would earn then deducting the tax paid on that interest I think I am likely going to go ahead and pay my Q1 taxes on April 15 just for the peace of mind of having it done. Besides seems like the government could use the money.
Paid mine, done.
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lstone19
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by lstone19 »

GeraniumLover wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:03 pm I make estimated tax payments based on actual amounts received through my sole proprietorship. So this would seem to mean that on June 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in April and May, and on July 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in January-March. Seems odd, but OK.
If you're doing that, you should be doing it based on annualized income, not income in the quarter. A subtle difference but key given having the 2nd quarter due before the 1st one. But doing it that way, your June 15th payment should be calculated by annualizing your first five months of income, not annualizing just April and May. And then on July 15th, well here is where it gets complicated. Normally, this would be 25% of the tax calculated by annualizing the first three months. But with the quarters reversed, you now also have to make sure the first two payments covered 50% of the tax calculated by annualizing the first five months. So with the quarters reversed, I think the 1st quarter annualized amount now becomes irrelevant and on 6/15 you pay 25% of the 2nd quarter annualized tax and on 7/15, another 25% (although with more thought, if you had a lot of income in the 1st quarter, you might owe even more for the 1st quarter but if your income is so front-loaded like that, come next year and doing your tax return, annualizing is unlikely to help you at all - no point in annualizing if it causes you to owe more early in the year than assuming income was spread out equally).
GeraniumLover
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by GeraniumLover »

lstone19 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:13 pm
GeraniumLover wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:03 pm I make estimated tax payments based on actual amounts received through my sole proprietorship. So this would seem to mean that on June 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in April and May, and on July 15 I should pay estimated taxes for amounts received in January-March. Seems odd, but OK.
If you're doing that, you should be doing it based on annualized income, not income in the quarter. A subtle difference but key given having the 2nd quarter due before the 1st one. But doing it that way, your June 15th payment should be calculated by annualizing your first five months of income, not annualizing just April and May. And then on July 15th, well here is where it gets complicated. Normally, this would be 25% of the tax calculated by annualizing the first three months. But with the quarters reversed, you now also have to make sure the first two payments covered 50% of the tax calculated by annualizing the first five months. So with the quarters reversed, I think the 1st quarter annualized amount now becomes irrelevant and on 6/15 you pay 25% of the 2nd quarter annualized tax and on 7/15, another 25% (although with more thought, if you had a lot of income in the 1st quarter, you might owe even more for the 1st quarter but if your income is so front-loaded like that, come next year and doing your tax return, annualizing is unlikely to help you at all - no point in annualizing if it causes you to owe more early in the year than assuming income was spread out equally).
Thanks. My income varies throughout the year, but is usually higher during Q1. I may even decide to retire at some point this year, depending on how the markets recover. Also, I try to throw a little more each quarter in to cover tax on dividends/capital gains distributions (which are heavier in Q4). Given these factors, I don't know how to base the Q1 and Q2 estimated payments on annualized income.
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by FactualFran »

lstone19 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:22 pm My expectation for the 2210 regular method this year is that there will still be four due dates and because they must be in sequence for carry-forwards to work, will be 6/15, 7/15, 9/15, and 1/15. But your (newacct's) idea is interesting but it creates a defacto both 1st and 2nd are due on 7/15 as anything before 7/15 would have to be considered 1st quarter with any excess carrying over to the already past due 2nd quarter (so the only thing applied to 2nd quarter will be a carry-over from the 1st quarter as there will be no date on which a payment could be considered 2nd quarter without it also being 1st quarter). It's only on vouchers that a quarter is specified; payment by any other method is just on a given date with no quarter specified.
I hope that Form 2210 is not changed for 2020, but that changes are made only to the instructions and worksheets. It seems that changes mainly need to be made to the calculation of the underpayment penalty on the payment for the first quarter.

The Short Method can be used if "You paid the same amount of estimated tax on each of the four payment due dates." The instructions for 2020 should indicate that the payment due date for the 1st quarter was 07/15/2020, rather then 04/15/2020.

With the Regular Method, Section A (Figure Your Underpayment) should use the original payment due date of 04/15/2020. The underpayment or overpayment amount should be calculated as if the payment due date for the 1st quarter had not been changed. However, the calculation done by the Penalty Worksheet should be changed so the underpayment penalty for the first quarter payment is zero through 07/15/2020. The penalty for the year calculated by the Penalty Worksheet is entered in Section B (Figure the Penalty) of the Regular Method.
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by newacct »

It seems that the 2nd quarter estimated tax payment deadline has also been extended to July 15.

From this news release:
Besides the April 15 estimated tax payment previously extended, today’s notice also extends relief to estimated tax payments due June 15, 2020. This means that any individual or corporation that has a quarterly estimated tax payment due on or after April 1, 2020, and before July 15, 2020, can wait until July 15 to make that payment, without penalty.
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Stinky
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by Stinky »

newacct wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:15 pm It seems that the 2nd quarter estimated tax payment deadline has also been extended to July 15.

From this news release:
Besides the April 15 estimated tax payment previously extended, today’s notice also extends relief to estimated tax payments due June 15, 2020. This means that any individual or corporation that has a quarterly estimated tax payment due on or after April 1, 2020, and before July 15, 2020, can wait until July 15 to make that payment, without penalty.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.

The IRS has done something eminently reasonable. Maybe they were reading the multiple posts about the June 15 due date for 2q taxes on this Forum. :D
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seymore92
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by seymore92 »

Stinky wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:25 pm
newacct wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:15 pm It seems that the 2nd quarter estimated tax payment deadline has also been extended to July 15.

From this news release:
Besides the April 15 estimated tax payment previously extended, today’s notice also extends relief to estimated tax payments due June 15, 2020. This means that any individual or corporation that has a quarterly estimated tax payment due on or after April 1, 2020, and before July 15, 2020, can wait until July 15 to make that payment, without penalty.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.

The IRS has done something eminently reasonable. Maybe they were reading the multiple posts about the June 15 due date for 2q taxes on this Forum. :D
IRS FAQs updated:

https://www.irs.gov/faqs/estimated-tax/ ... ividuals-2

January 1 - March 31 : Extended to July 15
April 1 - May 31 : Extended to July 15
June 1 - August 31 : September 15
September 1 - December 31 : January 15 (2021)
MarkNYC
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by MarkNYC »

seymore92 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:34 pm
Stinky wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:25 pm
newacct wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:15 pm It seems that the 2nd quarter estimated tax payment deadline has also been extended to July 15.

From this news release:
Besides the April 15 estimated tax payment previously extended, today’s notice also extends relief to estimated tax payments due June 15, 2020. This means that any individual or corporation that has a quarterly estimated tax payment due on or after April 1, 2020, and before July 15, 2020, can wait until July 15 to make that payment, without penalty.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.

The IRS has done something eminently reasonable. Maybe they were reading the multiple posts about the June 15 due date for 2q taxes on this Forum. :D
IRS FAQs updated:

https://www.irs.gov/faqs/estimated-tax/ ... ividuals-2

January 1 - March 31 : Extended to July 15
April 1 - May 31 : Extended to July 15
June 1 - August 31 : September 15
September 1 - December 31 : January 15 (2021)
If you pay state estimated taxes, better check your own state's rules. NY and a number of other states retained June 15 as the 2nd quarter due date.
lstone19
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by lstone19 »

MarkNYC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:27 pm If you pay state estimated taxes, better check your own state's rules. NY and a number of other states retained June 15 as the 2nd quarter due date.
Illinois, while moving the filing deadline for 2019 returns to 7/15, made no changes to estimated due dates - still 4/15 and 6/15 for the 1st and 2nd quarter.
MarkNYC
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by MarkNYC »

lstone19 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:36 pm
MarkNYC wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:27 pm If you pay state estimated taxes, better check your own state's rules. NY and a number of other states retained June 15 as the 2nd quarter due date.
Illinois, while moving the filing deadline for 2019 returns to 7/15, made no changes to estimated due dates - still 4/15 and 6/15 for the 1st and 2nd quarter.
For states like that, there have been discussions about omitting the 1st and 2nd quarter payments, and filing a 2019 extension 7/15, paying enough with the extension to create an overpayment that can be applied to 2020 to cover the 1st two quarters. Some states may allow that to avoid a 2020 estimated tax penalty, some may not.
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by jj »

When paying FIT estimated taxes for the first two quarters on July 15th, should I be separating out the two payments or will the IRS just assume half is for the first quarter and half for the second? I will be using the irs.gov direct-pay system to make the payment.

If it's relevant, I am using the safe harbor of 110% of last year's taxes owed.

Thanks
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lstone19
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Re: 2020 estimated tax dates

Post by lstone19 »

jj wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:20 pm When paying FIT estimated taxes for the first two quarters on July 15th, should I be separating out the two payments or will the IRS just assume half is for the first quarter and half for the second? I will be using the irs.gov direct-pay system to make the payment.
Payments are not allocated to specific quarters. Payments are applied in date order with any excess carried over to the next. So most likely it will all be applied to the 1st quarter with the excess above the 1st quarter minimum required applied to the 2nd quarter (and then if there's still excess, to the 3rd quarter.
If it's relevant, I am using the safe harbor of 110% of last year's taxes owed.
Not relevant because that has not been determined yet. At the end of the year, your safe-harbor minimum will be the lower of 90% of the current year's tax and 100%(110%) of the previous year's tax. At that point, what you needed to pay each quarter is determined. So while you may expect your safe-harbor to be 110% of last year's, until you file your 2020 tax return, neither you nor the IRS know for certain which will apply and how much payment is required each quarter and hence why payments are just applied in order with no advance designation of what quarter they are for.
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