College in fall

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marcopolo
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:48 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:40 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:33 am I was pointing out that off campus students cannot utilize a library, labs, study groups, office hours and many other systems of personalized learning services that open campuses have in place.
Although they do not have that access anymore the price for tuition remains the same.
MIT is inviting seniors because their need to be on campus is most immediate, after extensive consultations with all stakeholders, including MIT undergraduate association.

There won't be any study groups anywhere in the country. Campus life is not going to be what it used to be, unless students violate the rules, and then campuses will outright close.

In our particular case, son's options included full tuition merit scholarship at Vandy.

Their cavalier attitude in bringing everyone back on campus and promising in person instruction has only reassured us we made the right choice.
I have no intention of arguing or aggravating anyone's needs or wants to attend college in the near future.
The situation that presents itself is problematic and will likely require drastic changes over time.

Just wanted to put out the thought that in the 'big picture' colleges must restrict the value and depth of their services but their price remains the same. In other industries/products when an adjustment is made and their services are altered the price is typically lowered fairly rapidly - it will be interesting to see how this unfolds longer term with college.
Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:48 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:40 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:33 am I was pointing out that off campus students cannot utilize a library, labs, study groups, office hours and many other systems of personalized learning services that open campuses have in place.
Although they do not have that access anymore the price for tuition remains the same.
MIT is inviting seniors because their need to be on campus is most immediate, after extensive consultations with all stakeholders, including MIT undergraduate association.

There won't be any study groups anywhere in the country. Campus life is not going to be what it used to be, unless students violate the rules, and then campuses will outright close.

In our particular case, son's options included full tuition merit scholarship at Vandy.

Their cavalier attitude in bringing everyone back on campus and promising in person instruction has only reassured us we made the right choice.
I have no intention of arguing or aggravating anyone's needs or wants to attend college in the near future.
The situation that presents itself is problematic and will likely require drastic changes over time.

Just wanted to put out the thought that in the 'big picture' colleges must restrict the value and depth of their services but their price remains the same. In other industries/products when an adjustment is made and their services are altered the price is typically lowered fairly rapidly - it will be interesting to see how this unfolds longer term with college.
Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
In our area it is true.
e5116
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by e5116 »

tibbitts wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:24 pm
oldfatguy wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:15 pm
shelanman wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:28 pm
Nobody polices attendance in university classes -- non-students can freely enter classrooms and attend whatever classes they want.

There's a reason that universities don't police this. Virtually nobody does it.

If it were the education that was desired, then people who couldn't get in, or couldn't afford the program, would go get the education for free by just showing up ... After all, you can do everything except have your midterm and final exams graded for free -- and, honestly, you could probably take exams and get them back with grades without enrolling either by just pretending or just asking the professor, if you really needed someone else's validation that you were learning.
This is pure fantasy at every university I ever attended and have worked for.
I agree that has just not been possible in my experience as an instructor. I knew all the students and was responsible for verifying that no extraneous students showed up. That was partly for the benefit of the students - you didn't want them to get to the end of the class and find out they weren't properly registered, and wouldn't receive credit.
I suppose it's possible for large lectures to blend in, but not the case for smaller classes or anything that has any component being hands-on at all. I think the better analogy is the fact that a place like MIT has MIT OpenCourseWare available for free. That is, basically, all class content from every course is available to anybody who wants to view it. That is not to suggest that going to class, interacting with others, labs (if applicable) and the discussions have no value though. But it's clear that the fundamental course content stuff doesn't command a dollar amount apparently.

And theoretically, somebody could get an equivalent experience/education doing the MIT online content that an MIT student may soon be getting given they may be remote as well. So, in that sense, the remote student and (possible) general public experience is equivalent if one chooses to do so, except one is paying a lot of money and officially enrolled (and has tests/exams administered and the like).
Katietsu
Posts: 3868
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:48 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Katietsu »

MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:00 am
tibbitts wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:51 am
MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 am
My daughter can't wait to be back at school with her friends in her apartment. Even if they are 100% on-line. And I will continue to pay for it (as if I had a choice since we already singed a lease for 2020/21).
I think the point is that she's supposed to be alone in her own apartment, or locked in her own room, and dreading exposure if she has to pass through a common area for brief escapes into the outside world, not "with her friends." So it would kind of like looking forward to a prison sentence if she's thinking about it the right way.

Pretty sure that won't happen. I fully expect college kids to act like college kids if universities are bringing them back.
And this is why those of us who live in college towns are getting ready to stalk up on paper towels and toilet paper. Worse case, retire early or try for a leave of absence. I have not searched the news. But, I am aware of multiple large outbreaks in college towns during the the last month which have been fueled almost entirely by college students even without any in person instruction. Instead, these are kids making use of their 12 month lease, students coming back to hit the college bars to meet up with friends, and even healthcare professionals students in clinical rotations who do not think they need to socially distance from each other. The death of a 21 year old at Penn State must be leading to some difficult conversations in the administration. I would not want to be in the room where such decisions are being made.
Last edited by Katietsu on Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
marcopolo
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:34 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:48 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:40 am
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:33 am I was pointing out that off campus students cannot utilize a library, labs, study groups, office hours and many other systems of personalized learning services that open campuses have in place.
Although they do not have that access anymore the price for tuition remains the same.
MIT is inviting seniors because their need to be on campus is most immediate, after extensive consultations with all stakeholders, including MIT undergraduate association.

There won't be any study groups anywhere in the country. Campus life is not going to be what it used to be, unless students violate the rules, and then campuses will outright close.

In our particular case, son's options included full tuition merit scholarship at Vandy.

Their cavalier attitude in bringing everyone back on campus and promising in person instruction has only reassured us we made the right choice.
I have no intention of arguing or aggravating anyone's needs or wants to attend college in the near future.
The situation that presents itself is problematic and will likely require drastic changes over time.

Just wanted to put out the thought that in the 'big picture' colleges must restrict the value and depth of their services but their price remains the same. In other industries/products when an adjustment is made and their services are altered the price is typically lowered fairly rapidly - it will be interesting to see how this unfolds longer term with college.
Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
In our area it is true.
So, The Wal-Mart in your area prices products lower when the manufacturer reduces package size? Call me skeptical.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
the way
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:00 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by the way »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:21 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:13 pm The speed and certainty with which universities announce their intention to reopen campuses appear to be in inverse proportion to the strength of their financial position.
Long-awaited MIT plan comes out today. Seniors only on campus this fall. Good call that we and our rising freshman are happy about.

https://thetech.com/2020/07/07/fall-det ... ly-seniors
Interesting - no campus activities or services and same price.
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:34 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:48 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:40 am
MIT is inviting seniors because their need to be on campus is most immediate, after extensive consultations with all stakeholders, including MIT undergraduate association.

There won't be any study groups anywhere in the country. Campus life is not going to be what it used to be, unless students violate the rules, and then campuses will outright close.

In our particular case, son's options included full tuition merit scholarship at Vandy.

Their cavalier attitude in bringing everyone back on campus and promising in person instruction has only reassured us we made the right choice.
I have no intention of arguing or aggravating anyone's needs or wants to attend college in the near future.
The situation that presents itself is problematic and will likely require drastic changes over time.

Just wanted to put out the thought that in the 'big picture' colleges must restrict the value and depth of their services but their price remains the same. In other industries/products when an adjustment is made and their services are altered the price is typically lowered fairly rapidly - it will be interesting to see how this unfolds longer term with college.
Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
In our area it is true.
So, The Wal-Mart in your area prices products lower when the manufacturer reduces package size? Call me skeptical.
I guess your thoughts are that college has the same value whether you attend on site or if you are remote. Perhaps the various onsite activities, facilities and supports do not appear to add value in your estimate. I do not know what is going to happen with this college transformation but my guess is that most folks will not see near the value in paying the same rates for a 'virtual' experience.
Of course that is just my opinion and has about the same value as a wooden nickel - lets all see what happens as this unfolds.
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

the way wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:25 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:21 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:13 pm The speed and certainty with which universities announce their intention to reopen campuses appear to be in inverse proportion to the strength of their financial position.
Long-awaited MIT plan comes out today. Seniors only on campus this fall. Good call that we and our rising freshman are happy about.

https://thetech.com/2020/07/07/fall-det ... ly-seniors
Interesting - no campus activities or services and same price.
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
Various on some of these based upon the grade level of student - again if you think that you would be happy paying the rates for a mostly 'virtual' experience for Fresh - Jr that is a personal choice. Do you have any college age students and what are they doing?
egrets
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:56 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by egrets »

scubadiver wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:08 pm
ncbill wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:56 pm
Bill McNeal wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:43 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:54 am This. The unfortunate reality is, in this current environment, the chances of a young adult doing anything productive with a gap year are very slim. In most situations, at this time, that's the last thing I would recommend a young college student to do right now.
How about a gap year doing public service, like AmeriCorps or getting international experience working in Africa as part of Peace Corps? Grad schools and future employers view these experiences fondly.
Peace Corps sent their volunteers back home in March...my cousin's kid was teaching English in eastern Europe & ended up coming home 18 months earlier than expected.
This wouldn't offer any resume enhancing value, but a gap year spent socially distancing with an older or at-risk family member could be very beneficial under the right circumstances. I have an uncle who lost his wife of 50 years in the spring of 2019 and the last 4 months have been brutal for him. I don't mean to suggest that his experience is representative of a broad swath of the population, but it's certainly not unique. Anyway, there are worse things an 18 year old could do with a year of their life.
+1
marcopolo
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:29 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:34 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:48 am

I have no intention of arguing or aggravating anyone's needs or wants to attend college in the near future.
The situation that presents itself is problematic and will likely require drastic changes over time.

Just wanted to put out the thought that in the 'big picture' colleges must restrict the value and depth of their services but their price remains the same. In other industries/products when an adjustment is made and their services are altered the price is typically lowered fairly rapidly - it will be interesting to see how this unfolds longer term with college.
Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
In our area it is true.
So, The Wal-Mart in your area prices products lower when the manufacturer reduces package size? Call me skeptical.
I guess your thoughts are that college has the same value whether you attend on site or if you are remote. Perhaps the various onsite activities, facilities and supports do not appear to add value in your estimate. I do not know what is going to happen with this college transformation but my guess is that most folks will not see near the value in paying the same rates for a 'virtual' experience.
Of course that is just my opinion and has about the same value as a wooden nickel - lets all see what happens as this unfolds.
Can you point me to where I said any such thing, because I don't recall that.

What you said is that other industries rapidly reduce price when the product/service is reduced. I was just pointing out that is not always the case, and gave some examples.
You responded with the statement that it works differently on your area (I assume you were talking about the examples I gave). I essentially called BS on that assertion.

We are getting off topic here. Feel free to have the last word if you would like.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
marcopolo
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:31 pm
the way wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:25 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:21 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 12:13 pm The speed and certainty with which universities announce their intention to reopen campuses appear to be in inverse proportion to the strength of their financial position.
Long-awaited MIT plan comes out today. Seniors only on campus this fall. Good call that we and our rising freshman are happy about.

https://thetech.com/2020/07/07/fall-det ... ly-seniors
Interesting - no campus activities or services and same price.
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
Various on some of these based upon the grade level of student - again if you think that you would be happy paying the rates for a mostly 'virtual' experience for Fresh - Jr that is a personal choice. Do you have any college age students and what are they doing?

We have a student in college right now and are dealing with this decision. We put a lot of value on the "college experience", so absolutely believe our son is unfortunately missing out on much of that with either fully on-line or even a "hybrid" approach. But, we still think college is worth it. Some of it is credentialing as some posters have discussed above, some of it is really a lack of a better alternative, and some of it is indeed recognizing that we are all (including the colleges) in a tough situation through no fault of our own.

If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:29 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:34 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:28 pm

Is that really true? I seem to recall many things like packages shrinking in size while the price stays the same.
Or hotels closing their pools for maintenance but room rates don't change, Gyms doing renovation on sections, same membership, etc.
In our area it is true.
So, The Wal-Mart in your area prices products lower when the manufacturer reduces package size? Call me skeptical.
I guess your thoughts are that college has the same value whether you attend on site or if you are remote. Perhaps the various onsite activities, facilities and supports do not appear to add value in your estimate. I do not know what is going to happen with this college transformation but my guess is that most folks will not see near the value in paying the same rates for a 'virtual' experience.
Of course that is just my opinion and has about the same value as a wooden nickel - lets all see what happens as this unfolds.
Can you point me to where I said any such thing, because I don't recall that.

What you said is that other industries rapidly reduce price when the product/service is reduced. I was just pointing out that is not always the case, and gave some examples.
You responded with the statement that it works differently on your area (I assume you were talking about the examples I gave). I essentially called BS on that assertion.

We are getting off topic here. Feel free to have the last word if you would like.
I guess we could try and compare a college education to a vacuum packed product at Walmart.
It would likely be of more value to compare that college education to something that one would normally require an onsite visit.
How would you feel if these more similar (but differing industries) substituted an online service for what would typically be on site at the same price:
- your gym membership supplies online workouts
- a musical instrument class conducts their classes in an online classroom
- an early education program supplies their curriculum each day online
- your local newspaper wants to substitute an online copy each day at the same price
Or any other similar service s that you may think of.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 20442
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:31 pm
the way wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:25 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:21 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am
Long-awaited MIT plan comes out today. Seniors only on campus this fall. Good call that we and our rising freshman are happy about.

https://thetech.com/2020/07/07/fall-det ... ly-seniors
Interesting - no campus activities or services and same price.
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
Various on some of these based upon the grade level of student - again if you think that you would be happy paying the rates for a mostly 'virtual' experience for Fresh - Jr that is a personal choice. Do you have any college age students and what are they doing?

We have a student in college right now and are dealing with this decision. We put a lot of value on the "college experience", so absolutely believe our son is unfortunately missing out on much of that with either fully on-line or even a "hybrid" approach. But, we still think college is worth it. Some of it is credentialing as some posters have discussed above, some of it is really a lack of a better alternative, and some of it is indeed recognizing that we are all (including the colleges) in a tough situation through no fault of our own.

If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
I do not think you are 'the way".
But you have expressed the opinion that the experience is of a diminished value. I believe that most folks will see this in the exact same way and that there will be many changes in college products and prices within the near future.
I also mentioned above that my opinion has no relative value in any of this nor do I have any dog in this fight.
AD3
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:05 pm
Location: Bay Area

Re: College in fall

Post by AD3 »

MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:00 am
tibbitts wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:51 am
MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 am
AD3 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:39 am I just read that Harvard is going online for the fall semester, it seems like the first domino to drop among the elite universities. My guess is the rest will follow suit in the next two weeks. I feel sorry for the kids that got off campus apartments thinking they would be going back to in person learning for the fall.
My daughter can't wait to be back at school with her friends in her apartment. Even if they are 100% on-line. And I will continue to pay for it (as if I had a choice since we already singed a lease for 2020/21).
I think the point is that she's supposed to be alone in her own apartment, or locked in her own room, and dreading exposure if she has to pass through a common area for brief escapes into the outside world, not "with her friends." So it would kind of like looking forward to a prison sentence if she's thinking about it the right way.

Pretty sure that won't happen. I fully expect college kids to act like college kids if universities are bringing them back.
I have little faith that college students will act accordingly with what's been going on with covid 19. Looking at the NBA, MLB and NFL struggle to figure out how to keep the bubbles safe tells me that colleges will have little to no success in implementing something on a wider scale with that cohort.
Last edited by AD3 on Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
smitcat
Posts: 6379
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
My thoughts are that there are many changes coming to this sector, it's prime for a disruption and covid19 is a catalyst.
Monsterflockster
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:03 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Monsterflockster »

AD3 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:31 pm
MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:00 am
tibbitts wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:51 am
MDfan wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 am
AD3 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:39 am I just read that Harvard is going online for the fall semester, it seems like the first domino to drop among the elite universities. My guess is the rest will follow suit in the next two weeks. I feel sorry for the kids that got off campus apartments thinking they would be going back to in person learning for the fall.
My daughter can't wait to be back at school with her friends in her apartment. Even if they are 100% on-line. And I will continue to pay for it (as if I had a choice since we already singed a lease for 2020/21).
I think the point is that she's supposed to be alone in her own apartment, or locked in her own room, and dreading exposure if she has to pass through a common area for brief escapes into the outside world, not "with her friends." So it would kind of like looking forward to a prison sentence if she's thinking about it the right way.

Pretty sure that won't happen. I fully expect college kids to act like college kids if universities are bringing them back.
I have little faith that college students will act accordingly with what's been going on with covid 19. Looking at the NBA, MLB and NFL struggle to figure out how to keep the bubbles safe tells me that colleges will have little to no success in implement something on a wider scale with that cohort.
This. They are pushing to at least appear to open motivated strictly for financial reasons. Considering people can stay away from parties or bars, let alone wear a mask this will be interesting how it all plays out.

Harvard has already said they’re going online, but they aren’t exactly hurting for money.
marcopolo
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:31 pm
the way wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:25 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:21 am

Interesting - no campus activities or services and same price.
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
Various on some of these based upon the grade level of student - again if you think that you would be happy paying the rates for a mostly 'virtual' experience for Fresh - Jr that is a personal choice. Do you have any college age students and what are they doing?

We have a student in college right now and are dealing with this decision. We put a lot of value on the "college experience", so absolutely believe our son is unfortunately missing out on much of that with either fully on-line or even a "hybrid" approach. But, we still think college is worth it. Some of it is credentialing as some posters have discussed above, some of it is really a lack of a better alternative, and some of it is indeed recognizing that we are all (including the colleges) in a tough situation through no fault of our own.

If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
I do not think you are 'the way".
But you have expressed the opinion that the experience is of a diminished value. I believe that most folks will see this in the exact same way and that there will be many changes in college products and prices within the near future.
I also mentioned above that my opinion has no relative value in any of this nor do I have any dog in this fight.
I an not sure what you mean by "the way". If you meant "the only approach", then I agree, it was just my thought process, I have no doubt others will see the same situation and come to different conclusions.

I agree with you that people will adjust their perceived value and something will have to give if this continues for a while. To torture my analogy a bit more, if the pool at the hotel continues to be closed, i might re-think my lodging choices in the future. So, I do think if this drags on it will have dramatic changes in how colleges are forced to operate, and alternative approaches will spring forth, might even be a good thing.

I would hope in the short term people make the best of a bad situation rather than throwing the college under the bus. I honestly believe they are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances, and better alternatives have not sprung up yet.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
smitcat
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Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:46 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:31 pm
the way wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:25 pm
If I read the email correctly, I think they are offering 5k back per student, 40% off meal plans, single dorm room at the double rate, a UROP or teaching op for every student, and free hardware (loaners).
Various on some of these based upon the grade level of student - again if you think that you would be happy paying the rates for a mostly 'virtual' experience for Fresh - Jr that is a personal choice. Do you have any college age students and what are they doing?

We have a student in college right now and are dealing with this decision. We put a lot of value on the "college experience", so absolutely believe our son is unfortunately missing out on much of that with either fully on-line or even a "hybrid" approach. But, we still think college is worth it. Some of it is credentialing as some posters have discussed above, some of it is really a lack of a better alternative, and some of it is indeed recognizing that we are all (including the colleges) in a tough situation through no fault of our own.

If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
I do not think you are 'the way".
But you have expressed the opinion that the experience is of a diminished value. I believe that most folks will see this in the exact same way and that there will be many changes in college products and prices within the near future.
I also mentioned above that my opinion has no relative value in any of this nor do I have any dog in this fight.
I an not sure what you mean by "the way". If you meant "the only approach", then I agree, it was just my thought process, I have no doubt others will see the same situation and come to different conclusions.

I agree with you that people will adjust their perceived value and something will have to give if this continues for a while. To torture my analogy a bit more, if the pool at the hotel continues to be closed, i might re-think my lodging choices in the future. So, I do think if this drags on it will have dramatic changes in how colleges are forced to operate, and alternative approaches will spring forth, might even be a good thing.

I would hope in the short term people make the best of a bad situation rather than throwing the college under the bus. I honestly believe they are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances, and better alternatives have not sprung up yet.
"I an not sure what you mean by "the way""
I was responding to a post that was initiated by "The way" but you responded instead.

"So, I do think if this drags on it will have dramatic changes in how colleges are forced to operate, and alternative approaches will spring forth, might even be a good thing."
Interesting - my opinion is similar but my thoughts are that this will happen quicker and be a much larger disrupter.

"I would hope in the short term people make the best of a bad situation rather than throwing the college under the bus."
A college is a business that operates on a 'pay to play' basis with credentials and certificates. I believe that there are numerous business's that are affected much worse than college and numerous ones that are affected much less than colleges. I see no reason why any of these business's should be treated any better or worse than one another so no bus's apply in my thoughts.

"To torture my analogy a bit more, if the pool at the hotel continues to be closed"
Whether I left the hotel due to the pool being closed would depend a lot on how much my experience and expectations depended upon the pool.
At this time we are cancelling a vacation to Disney even though they will be open - maybe in the future we will reschedule that but in the meantime we will substitute.
scubadiver
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Re: College in fall

Post by scubadiver »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
My thoughts are that there are many changes coming to this sector, it's prime for a disruption and covid19 is a catalyst.
I agree that the industry is ripe for change and that covid19 may be a catalyst. In a more perfect world though, the universities would have led the innovation. Kind of ironic when you think about it. Institutions charged with the responsibility of pursuing new scientific and technological innovations cannot move the dial an inch when it comes to their own operating model and associated inefficiencies.

I somewhat disagree with the notion that the universities all doing the same thing is indicative of a lack of options, at least as a general statement. I do believe it is accurate in the context in which it was stated regarding covid19. But my perception is that there is a tremendous amount of naval gazing within the community of university administrators. To the extent that perception is accurate, it explains the general pickle that universities now find themselves in and which is coming to a head as a result of covid19.

I do feel like I should give a plug for Purdue University. It's not a game changing innovation, but Mitch Daniels deserves tremendous credit for his focus on maintaining costs, while still emphasizing quality academics and research. I think it's a shame more institutions haven't followed that lead. EDIT: And the last that I heard is that they will host full in-person classes in the fall and are aggressively preparing for that situation.
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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 »

smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
My thoughts are that there are many changes coming to this sector, it's prime for a disruption and covid19 is a catalyst.
You might be right. Many of the responses in this thread demonstrate that those of means still place significant value on a college education, so I really doubt that the importance of a university education will diminish. On the contrary, recessions tend to be very good for university enrollments.

Some theorized years ago that higher ed would mostly move online in a matter of a few years, but again, this thread alone is evidence that many are highly skeptical of online-only education. And I can tell you from first-hand experience that neither students nor faculty at my institution like the online model. Contrary to what many think, most in Generation Z do not seem to care for it at all.

Perhaps the U.S. higher ed model will close to that of Europe, where there is much less focus on the first two years of a bachelor's degree being liberal arts. When students enter college, they tend to jump right into studying their desired major.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
marcopolo
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Re: College in fall

Post by marcopolo »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:48 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
My thoughts are that there are many changes coming to this sector, it's prime for a disruption and covid19 is a catalyst.
You might be right. Many of the responses in this thread demonstrate that those of means still place significant value on a college education, so I really doubt that the importance of a university education will diminish. On the contrary, recessions tend to be very good for university enrollments.

Some theorized years ago that higher ed would mostly move online in a matter of a few years, but again, this thread alone is evidence that many are highly skeptical of online-only education. And I can tell you from first-hand experience that neither students nor faculty at my institution like the online model. Contrary to what many think, most in Generation Z do not seem to care for it at all.

Perhaps the U.S. higher ed model will close to that of Europe, where there is much less focus on the first two years of a bachelor's degree being liberal arts. When students enter college, they tend to jump right into studying their desired major.
This forum seems to be heavily weighted towards utilitarianism, wringing the last ounce of value put of each dollar. I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Normchad
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Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad »

This forum seems to be heavily weighted towards utilitarianism, wringing the last ounce of value put of each dollar. I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
I very much agree with you, on both counts. This board does have a lot of members who have far above average means, but are curiously averse to spending any of it, even on family. And a lot of people view college as little more than a glorified trade school with a bad ROI.

I very much liked my college experience, and I also want for my offspring to have had that.

But different people, want different things. And we've all only ever experienced our lives, so it is hard to envision other approaches.

I do know this. My kid finished the last semester of her senior college year on my couch, and it sucked. big time. The "educational value" went to about zero. And we know that a lot of high school seniors had the exact same experience, and are understandably hoping to avoid doing that again.
scubadiver
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Re: College in fall

Post by scubadiver »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:05 pm
This forum seems to be heavily weighted towards utilitarianism, wringing the last ounce of value put of each dollar. I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
I very much agree with you, on both counts. This board does have a lot of members who have far above average means, but are curiously averse to spending any of it, even on family. And a lot of people view college as little more than a glorified trade school with a bad ROI.

I very much liked my college experience, and I also want for my offspring to have had that.

But different people, want different things. And we've all only ever experienced our lives, so it is hard to envision other approaches.

I do know this. My kid finished the last semester of her senior college year on my couch, and it sucked. big time. The "educational value" went to about zero. And we know that a lot of high school seniors had the exact same experience, and are understandably hoping to avoid doing that again.
I don't agree with notion of universities being glorified trade schools. There is value in the college experience.

But I do believe that universities (in general) have been poor stewards of the substantial tuition dollars they have collectively received in recent years. The multi-decade growth in administrative overhead has been well-documented. And it's difficult to ignore that when you're paying the college experience price for the on-line trade school product, and by default supporting the substantial salaries of a cadre of college administrators who couldn't find a better solution to the problem. Is that fair under the circumstances? No. But those universities had plenty of opportunity to generate some goodwill by at least pretending to care about cost and efficiency.

Sigh....I'm still a few years away from our oldest starting college. I find myself both hopeful and concerned about what the college landscape will look like at that time.
retired recently
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Re: College in fall

Post by retired recently »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
I think a better analogy would be if the hotel was Great Wolf Lodge, where a large part of the experience is the water attractions. As someone pointed out, if the online content were so valuable, why do many colleges offer it for free?
retired recently
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Re: College in fall

Post by retired recently »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
I think a better analogy would be if the hotel was Great Wolf Lodge, where a large part of the experience is the water attractions. As someone pointed out, if the online content were so valuable, why do many colleges offer it for free?
smitcat
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Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:48 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
My thoughts are that there are many changes coming to this sector, it's prime for a disruption and covid19 is a catalyst.
You might be right. Many of the responses in this thread demonstrate that those of means still place significant value on a college education, so I really doubt that the importance of a university education will diminish. On the contrary, recessions tend to be very good for university enrollments.

Some theorized years ago that higher ed would mostly move online in a matter of a few years, but again, this thread alone is evidence that many are highly skeptical of online-only education. And I can tell you from first-hand experience that neither students nor faculty at my institution like the online model. Contrary to what many think, most in Generation Z do not seem to care for it at all.

Perhaps the U.S. higher ed model will close to that of Europe, where there is much less focus on the first two years of a bachelor's degree being liberal arts. When students enter college, they tend to jump right into studying their desired major.
IMHO - All of the past marketing and perceived value will be changing. The costs and the 'brand' loyalty will be tested and things will change to each colleges 'unique selling proposition'. Online education will likely always be considered a 'lesser' product that demands a 'lesser' price by a decent 'discount'. I also could see that online education gets a boost overall in how folks feel about it which will make many online options more viable either for parts of an education or for all of it. An industry where costs are high and where many (maybe even most) overpay for the degree to the extent where it becomes a clear target in many folks life budget. I believe there will be a number of colleges that begin a very new approach in a fairly short period of time. Perhaps when this change is well on its way many will say ..'well that was obvious', but not so obvious right at this moment. Again - time will tell ...and we are past being personally tied up in this topic just an observation from the sidelines when viewing posts like these.
smitcat
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Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:05 pm
This forum seems to be heavily weighted towards utilitarianism, wringing the last ounce of value put of each dollar. I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
I very much agree with you, on both counts. This board does have a lot of members who have far above average means, but are curiously averse to spending any of it, even on family. And a lot of people view college as little more than a glorified trade school with a bad ROI.

I very much liked my college experience, and I also want for my offspring to have had that.

But different people, want different things. And we've all only ever experienced our lives, so it is hard to envision other approaches.

I do know this. My kid finished the last semester of her senior college year on my couch, and it sucked. big time. The "educational value" went to about zero. And we know that a lot of high school seniors had the exact same experience, and are understandably hoping to avoid doing that again.
"And we know that a lot of high school seniors had the exact same experience, and are understandably hoping to avoid doing that again."
An excellent point and that happened here as well. The talks about not having full High School days this September already has this area's folks talking about how much our large school taxes should drop as a result if that were to happen. A few of these school districts have already announced
some teacher and support layoffs for the fall to cope with the costs vs services that are already apparent. They say that their choice was to cut some pay from everyone or to cut some folks completely and freeze costs on the majority of the remaining staff. A number of private schools (mostly religious based) have announced closing altogether - 6 within about 50 miles that I know of so far.

"I very much liked my college experience, and I also want for my offspring to have had that."
I was in a position to really like one year of my college experience and I agree with you on this comment very much. But as time goes by this experience changes and the costs directly linked to this are changing as well. At some point this past experience will not reflect anything like the 'new' experience and may be replaced with one or more experiences which are either supplied by college or maybe not.
FWIW - my kid got some really great experiences in many things related to but not directly supplied by the college. Some of those were field work when traveling, clinical work both paid and unpaid, sports in non college leagues, and tutoring at other facilities and colleges.
Whatever happens I think it will come quicker and be deeper than most would consider the outcome at this time.
smitcat
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Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

retired recently wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:44 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 pm
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm If I made reservations at a hotel for a week, and show up to find someone hit their head on the diving board and bled into the pool, so they had to close the pool for a day or two (and all the other nearby hotels had similar issues), I would be disappointed that we would miss out on some of the enjoyment, but I would not go sleep in my car, or storm to the front desk and demand a discount.
That's a good analogy. Many are getting into a big huff about all of this, but the very fact that nearly all universities are taking very similar approaches should be indicative of how little choice they truly have in the matter.
I think a better analogy would be if the hotel was Great Wolf Lodge, where a large part of the experience is the water attractions. As someone pointed out, if the online content were so valuable, why do many colleges offer it for free?
Some questions for those that have future concerns will be:
- what happens when you have important lab work
- what happens with hands on teaching
- what happens with clinical placement learning
- what happens with workplace mentoring teaching
Right now kids are locked out of their clinicals for doctors, nurses, dental, OT, DPT, SLP, etc etc. Many other fields are similarly blocked from their normal valuable learning path right now in this area and we are getting very close to August end when they are supposed to report back for these tasks.
stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 pm I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
Personally, I don't underestimate how much others value the "college experience", but I don't understand it. I am sure my view is largely because it was not a time of "little responsibility", I was 100% responsible for finding a way to fund it. My wife's university went online this spring (and I assume will be much the same for the fall) and she actually preferred it, but then again she's not at HYPS and an adult with a family and a full-time job so she doesn't value the same things as a single 18yr old (the hours a week she saved just getting to and from classes was invaluable). All I know is that I have greatly sacrificed to fund my kids' 529s so I am paying for my kids to get an education, not for parties and frats. If that is important to them, they can find a way to pay for it on their own. If they decide that online is the best way for them (which may be the norm by the time they are in college), I am all for it.
7eight9
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Re: College in fall

Post by 7eight9 »

Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday against the Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement over new rules barring international students from living in the country while taking online courses.

University President Lawrence S. Bacow told the Harvard Crimson the suit asks for a temporary restraining order to keep Homeland Security and ICE from enforcing the federal guidelines which state that removal proceedings could be initiated for international students who refuse to transfer to a school offering in-person classes.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/ha ... t/2155756/
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester »

Just to provide some insight in how bad the transition to online was. My youngest said in one class the professor would take 30 to 45 minutes of the class time to get his web cam working every single day. This went on for the entire transition from March to the end of May. He would then lecture into the web cam, out of focus, out of frame while writing notes on a piece of paper. At the end of the lecture time he would then flash the web cam onto the piece of paper for a few seconds. Many complained but the professors behavior never changed...

In another class, after the transition in March to online the class stopped all homework assignments and lectures. Zoom time became goof off time for many... He basically had to just read the book to get anything meaningful out of the class.

All the while He (we) paid full tuition rate for these classes. Classes he could have taken at the local community college for 1/4 the price, and would have been designed as an online class from day1.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
MathIsMyWayr
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Re: College in fall

Post by MathIsMyWayr »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:58 am
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 pm I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
Personally, I don't underestimate how much others value the "college experience", but I don't understand it. I am sure my view is largely because it was not a time of "little responsibility", I was 100% responsible for finding a way to fund it. My wife's university went online this spring (and I assume will be much the same for the fall) and she actually preferred it, but then again she's not at HYPS and an adult with a family and a full-time job so she doesn't value the same things as a single 18yr old (the hours a week she saved just getting to and from classes was invaluable). All I know is that I have greatly sacrificed to fund my kids' 529s so I am paying for my kids to get an education, not for parties and frats. If that is important to them, they can find a way to pay for it on their own. If they decide that online is the best way for them (which may be the norm by the time they are in college), I am all for it.
If your only goal is an acquisition of knowledge, you don't have to go to a college. In any subject, there are many books of varying degree of difficulty readily available. Even in a class or a course, the function of a professor is "not to cover a subject for students, but to uncover it" if I borrow a preface of a physics textbook.
stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink »

MathIsMyWayr wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:17 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:58 am
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 pm I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
Personally, I don't underestimate how much others value the "college experience", but I don't understand it. I am sure my view is largely because it was not a time of "little responsibility", I was 100% responsible for finding a way to fund it. My wife's university went online this spring (and I assume will be much the same for the fall) and she actually preferred it, but then again she's not at HYPS and an adult with a family and a full-time job so she doesn't value the same things as a single 18yr old (the hours a week she saved just getting to and from classes was invaluable). All I know is that I have greatly sacrificed to fund my kids' 529s so I am paying for my kids to get an education, not for parties and frats. If that is important to them, they can find a way to pay for it on their own. If they decide that online is the best way for them (which may be the norm by the time they are in college), I am all for it.
If your only goal is an acquisition of knowledge, you don't have to go to a college. In any subject, there are many books of varying degree of difficulty readily available. Even in a class or a course, the function of a professor is "not to cover a subject for students, but to uncover it" if I borrow a preface of a physics textbook.
I don't disagree at all, but that diploma is a pre-req for almost every professional career these days. On the same token, there are a million more cost-efficient ways to have life-developing experiences than a university. I attended 4 universities over 11yrs and have since taught at 2 others, and I still fail to understand why some others view them as these magical environments.
oldfatguy
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfatguy »

This thread has pretty much 'jumped the shark' by now, but this site always gives me a good chuckle.

Bogleheads:
Someone needs a simple will ... everyone should hire an experienced estate attorney!
There's a small crack in my drywall ... you need it evaluated by a structural engineer ASAP!
College education? ... meh, you should be able to figure it out on your own by reading some books and watching a few videos.
smitcat
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Re: College in fall

Post by smitcat »

oldfatguy wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:18 am This thread has pretty much 'jumped the shark' by now, but this site always gives me a good chuckle.

Bogleheads:
Someone needs a simple will ... everyone should hire an experienced estate attorney!
There's a small crack in my drywall ... you need it evaluated by a structural engineer ASAP!
College education? ... meh, you should be able to figure it out on your own by reading some books and watching a few videos.
"Bogleheads:
Someone needs a simple will ... everyone should hire an experienced estate attorney!
There's a small crack in my drywall ... you need it evaluated by a structural engineer ASAP!
College education? ... meh, you should be able to figure it out on your own by reading some books and watching a few videos."

Interesting - I have learned a lot on this site.
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Re: College in fall

Post by PhoebeCoco »

My "college experience" was that I had to pay for it myself, and I was always worried that my fragile financial situation (despite grants and loans) would come crashing down and I would be tossed out, having to take a minimum wage job with no future.

I would have LOVED it if there had been free or almost-free classes online which could have provided a college degree and a good future, at a fraction of the cost I paid and the anxiety I suffered.

Heck, I would have LOVED it if the internet had existed back then!

On the good side - my "college experience" taught me how to live on very little money. Certainly an extremely useful real-world skill.
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trinc
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Re: College in fall

Post by trinc »

I have two kids starting their freshman year ( one took gap year +1 :happy ), albeit we are talking state school... what a mess.

Neither want to be at home, period. I am hearing there may be limited dorm space but if you don't reserve for fall term, winter & spring won't be available. :(

i do understand the point that the youth are not the problematic demographic and the schooling issue may be a bit overblown. :confused

Tim
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Re: College in fall

Post by HomerJ »

Normchad wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:05 pmThis board does have a lot of members who have far above average means, but are curiously averse to spending any of it
Just FYI, in many cases, that's WHY many of us have far above average means.

It's not that curious.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”
Normchad
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Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad »

oldfatguy wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:18 am This thread has pretty much 'jumped the shark' by now, but this site always gives me a good chuckle.

Bogleheads:
Someone needs a simple will ... everyone should hire an experienced estate attorney!
There's a small crack in my drywall ... you need it evaluated by a structural engineer ASAP!
College education? ... meh, you should be able to figure it out on your own by reading some books and watching a few videos.
Yep, you nailed it perfectly.
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:58 am
marcopolo wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 pm I think many underestimate how much people value the "college experience", hanging out with friends, going to parties, sporting events, various clubs, maybe even fraternities, etc. It may all seem frivolous to many here, but I think a lot of people are willing to pay up for that relative to an on-line degree.

I know I thoroughly enjoyed my years in college, it is a time of tremendous freedom, with little responsibility (what could be better?), and I want my kids to experience the same. I suspect many feel the same way.
So, I suspect there are changes coming, but I don't think the residential college model is going away. Perhaps it will shrink to only serve the fortunate minority that can afford such frivolity.
Personally, I don't underestimate how much others value the "college experience", but I don't understand it. I am sure my view is largely because it was not a time of "little responsibility", I was 100% responsible for finding a way to fund it. My wife's university went online this spring (and I assume will be much the same for the fall) and she actually preferred it, but then again she's not at HYPS and an adult with a family and a full-time job so she doesn't value the same things as a single 18yr old (the hours a week she saved just getting to and from classes was invaluable). All I know is that I have greatly sacrificed to fund my kids' 529s so I am paying for my kids to get an education, not for parties and frats. If that is important to them, they can find a way to pay for it on their own. If they decide that online is the best way for them (which may be the norm by the time they are in college), I am all for it.
TMK, the data is clear that 'non-traditional' students (i.e. those over age 30) tend to be more open to online education than traditional students, mainly due to the flexibility it provides, which is important considering that most of them have significant responsibilities to manage. But even then, there are a lot of non-traditionals who really want face-to-face interaction.
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:53 am
MathIsMyWayr wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:17 am If your only goal is an acquisition of knowledge, you don't have to go to a college. In any subject, there are many books of varying degree of difficulty readily available. Even in a class or a course, the function of a professor is "not to cover a subject for students, but to uncover it" if I borrow a preface of a physics textbook.
I don't disagree at all, but that diploma is a pre-req for almost every professional career these days. On the same token, there are a million more cost-efficient ways to have life-developing experiences than a university. I attended 4 universities over 11yrs and have since taught at 2 others, and I still fail to understand why some others view them as these magical environments.
Bingo. YouTube doesn't offer certificates saying that watchers of certain videos know the content contained therein at an appropriate level. And if they did, I don't know that many would lend much credence to it.

In a real way, a big part of the why I really doubt that there will be massive upheaval to the current higher ed model relates to the need for informed human beings to (1) determine what content needs to be taught right now and (2) grade students' work. I've witnessed experimental programs that sought to use AI to do the latter, and they simply didn't work well at all unless the instructor put a lot of work into 'programming' them on the front-end. And even then, instructors still had to 'look over the shoulder' to verify that everything was appropriate. Taken together with having to learn how to do all of this, the time saved was apparently close to nil.

Higher ed, for better or worse, is a process that generally requires extensive human involvement. I don't see that changing any time soon. Yes, costs can be significantly reduced by making institutions' structure flatter and reducing/eliminating extraneous expenses (e.g. athletics at regional universities). But it's not going to be cheap.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: College in fall

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed an off-topic post. This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted). See: Locked Topics
Moderators or site admins may lock a topic (set it so no more replies may be added) when a violation of posting policy has occurred. Occasionally, even if there are no overt violations of posting policy, a topic (or thread) will reach a point where the information content of the discussion has been essentially exhausted and further replies are much more likely to cause distress to the community than add anything of value.
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SimonJester
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College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by SimonJester »

[Thread merged into here, see below (next page). --admin LadyGeek]

Hopefully the Mods are ok with a restart, but the situation is changing rapidly for us with college students.

For my son's college, they announced that by the beginning of July they would have all his classes mapped out online vs in person, vs hybrid.

At the beginning of July two of his six classes were slated for online and the remaining four were in person. These are very hands on classes and he will not get a full education out of an online class.

Well my son discovered late last week all of his classes are now online with only two being partially in person. They did not announce this to anyone, just changed the format. Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...

We have to decide in less then a week to cancel his dorm.

He mad out a pros and cons list which came out slightly in favor of still going to the dorms.

What are others doing this fall.

Please stay on topic so we do not get this locked down.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
runner3081
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by runner3081 »

SimonJester wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:26 pm Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...
I think that is a bit unfair, the situation is highly fluid.
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by Normchad »

This is an awful situation, for sure. Online instruction has proven to be horrible. Having said that, I think it would far worse to have the students meet in person as normal.

Our child just finished undergrad. She was debating between five fully funded PhD programs for the fall. Due in large part to the uncertainty, she decided not to get a PhD. Another big bummer.

For the new undergrads, I wonder what the TA instruction will be like? A lot of PhD programs didn’t secure full classes, and those are the cheaper teachers, right? And for the ones that do show up, they don’t have instructional experience, and no real access to learn it or figure it out. AND a lot of international grad students just can’t here right now. The consulates in their countries.are closed, not processing VISAs, etc.

It’s just a ton of bad news for everybody. But life goes in, try to make the best of it. That’s all you can do.
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by tibbitts »

I don't remember the original post, and you didn't provide a link to it (seriously?), so I assume you're saying you live within spitting distance of this college campus and want to know whether to have your son live in a dorm. In that case, living in a dorm was a horrible idea in the first place. [OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Normchad
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by Normchad »

runner3081 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:26 pm Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...
I think that is a bit unfair, the situation is highly fluid.
It is very likely that all the schools will do this.

@WillThrill called it months ago. Saying all the schools would claim the goal of in person, to secure an incoming class. Knowing/hoping somebody else would later compel them to be online.

I’d cancel the dorm. Main motivation is his personal safety.
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by MathIsMyWayr »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:10 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:26 pm Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...
I think that is a bit unfair, the situation is highly fluid.
It is very likely that all the schools will do this.

@WillThrill called it months ago. Saying all the schools would claim the goal of in person, to secure an incoming class. Knowing/hoping somebody else would later compel them to be online.

I’d cancel the dorm. Main motivation is his personal safety.
Let's turn the table around. What can or should colleges do in this time of evolving uncertainties? Colleges cannot wave magic wands.
Normchad
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Re: College in the Fall 2020 Covid Part 2

Post by Normchad »

MathIsMyWayr wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:16 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:10 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:26 pm Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...
I think that is a bit unfair, the situation is highly fluid.
It is very likely that all the schools will do this.

@WillThrill called it months ago. Saying all the schools would claim the goal of in person, to secure an incoming class. Knowing/hoping somebody else would later compel them to be online.

I’d cancel the dorm. Main motivation is his personal safety.
Let's turn the table around. What can or should colleges do in this time of evolving uncertainties? Colleges cannot wave magic wands.
I’m not saying the colleges are doing anything wrong.

One thing they could do, as well as local schools, is retrain the instructors on how to adapt for online teaching. Simply reading the slides in front of a web cam doesn’t cut it. There must be ways to make online instruction suck less. Figure out what those are.....
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Re: College in fall

Post by LadyGeek »

SimonJester wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:26 pm Hopefully the Mods are ok with a restart, but the situation is changing rapidly for us with college students.

For my son's college, they announced that by the beginning of July they would have all his classes mapped out online vs in person, vs hybrid.

At the beginning of July two of his six classes were slated for online and the remaining four were in person. These are very hands on classes and he will not get a full education out of an online class.

Well my son discovered late last week all of his classes are now online with only two being partially in person. They did not announce this to anyone, just changed the format. Needless so say my son is disappointed and feels the school he feels the college pulled a fast one on him...

We have to decide in less then a week to cancel his dorm.

He mad out a pros and cons list which came out slightly in favor of still going to the dorms.

What are others doing this fall.

Please stay on topic so we do not get this locked down.
I merged SimonJester's update back into the original thread.

The thread remains locked. See: Locked Topics
...if a topic is locked, please do not start up another thread to continue the discussion...
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