College in fall

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:10 am

oldfort wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm
This might be a good reason to think very carefully at the economic ROI for college, and focus less on factors like college fit and experience.
I agree.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Wings5
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Re: College in fall

Post by Wings5 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:09 am

For what some people spend you could have a paid for degree, then check the “experience” box with one heck of a gap year bender.

SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Sun May 17, 2020 8:09 am

cshell2 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:52 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:52 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:12 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm
........ likely a meal plan are a necessity.
As I explained to DW time after time, a meal plan is simply pre-paying at exorbinant cost with no refunds. My son had no meal plan for several years while in the dorms. The difference for him? He'd meet his friends and go in for breakfast. They'd all get a bagel and a coffee. He'd pay $3. They'd swipe their meal card and there goes $13.50. The food places do not physically disappear when one isn't on the meal plan.
The meal plan was not optional for freshman at both of my kids colleges. I recommend going with the lowest cost meal plan available in these cases...
It's not optional at any of the schools DS was accepted to either. If you live in a dorm you are required to have a meal plan. The only way to get out of it is to live in one of the apartment buildings with kitchens on campus (which are more expensive and mostly occupied by upperclassmen). We're trying to decide what to go with because the price difference between the lowest allowed plan and the unlimited swipes plan is only $200/semester. A drop in the bucket of total expenses and teen boys can eat.
This was the same with both of my kids meals plans, and I think they are designed this was on purpose. Neither kid used their mail plan to the fullest as they quickly became bored with the meal choices. However it was still nice to know they had a meal available if nothing else.

Some things to think about, will your son actually go back to the dorm / cafeteria for the lunch time meal. Can the plan be used at other meal kiosks around campus. Does you son actually eat breakfast, or will they sleep until 10 minutes before class and run out the door...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Sun May 17, 2020 12:14 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:55 pm
go_mets wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:39 pm
Sorry. I don't trust someone straight out of high school to do much of anything.
According to the statistics, USA schools rank poorly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-n ... ional-exam.
When I graduated high school, I had a five on the AP calculus exam. If you think the majority of people need to understand Lagrange multiples to do their jobs, we have very different perceptions on what skills are useful in the real world.
Coming from a fellow person who scored a five on AP Calc in the days before calculators were allowed on the exam, we are the mathematical outliers, not the mathematical norm. Only 1/3rd of California high school seniors are ready for college-level mathematics, which this day and age means only 1/3rd are proficient at basic algebra (solve for x), according to the state standards testing.

Remember that our personal experiences are anecdotal, while the standardized testing shows a rough measure of the population norms, with minor biases depending on how students were selected to take those tests (e.g. was it all of the students at that grade level, a school-selected pool of students, etc.).

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Sun May 17, 2020 12:22 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:03 pm
The current recession will, I suspect, lead to stronger college enrollments than we would have seen otherwise over the course of the next several years. There will likely be a dip this fall, but I fully expect the numbers to rebound significantly in 2021 and 2022. When great employment prospects aren't found at every corner, higher ed looks more attractive.
Previous recessions and market dips also led to an increase in college enrollments, particularly community colleges, which is part of the reason I warned up-thread about the possibility of community colleges getting overwhelmed by increased demand. Just like any other sector, they can't instantly respond to increased demand. It's not like there is an infinite pool of qualified instructors in all subject areas. And their budgets are suffering too, so even if the qualified instructors are instantly and infinitely available, their ability to hire said instructors has been hampered by the economy.

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Sun May 17, 2020 2:15 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:09 am

This was the same with both of my kids meals plans, and I think they are designed this was on purpose. Neither kid used their mail plan to the fullest as they quickly became bored with the meal choices. However it was still nice to know they had a meal available if nothing else.

Some things to think about, will your son actually go back to the dorm / cafeteria for the lunch time meal. Can the plan be used at other meal kiosks around campus. Does you son actually eat breakfast, or will they sleep until 10 minutes before class and run out the door...
He does eat breakfast now. But, I wonder if he really would on campus with odd schedules...probably not...three all you can eat meals a day seems kind of excessive even for him. I would imagine at least one meal a day would be skipped and that extra $200 for unlimited would probably be a waste. The meal swipes can only be used in the cafeteria. There is a cash allocation ($100 with the lowest plan) that can be used for other dining places.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: College in fall

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon May 18, 2020 5:56 am

My son’s health and eating habits improved when he got an off-campus apartment and developed cooking skills. He and his girlfriend cooked during their last two years at college and continue to enjoy cooking to this day. And, when they didn’t cook, they had the luxury of living in a great foodie town. I don’t know, but I’d be surprised if most college towns didn’t have great restaurant choices that are tastier and better for you than what the college cafeteria provides.

Don’t get me started on kitchen cleanup issues and how many pots and pans it takes to make a foodie breakfast. 😁. They made me a great breakfast the last time they were here, but I prefer to do cleanup in my kitchen.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

onourway
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Re: College in fall

Post by onourway » Mon May 18, 2020 6:10 am

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
The small engineering firm I work at always has a handful of high school and early college students working part time. It’s pretty clear why we don’t offer permanent positions right out of high school.

I say this as a liberal arts major who was hired right out of college - apparently an impossibility from the comments such a degree generates around here. :)

Valuethinker
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Re: College in fall

Post by Valuethinker » Mon May 18, 2020 7:52 am

onourway wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:10 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
The small engineering firm I work at always has a handful of high school and early college students working part time. It’s pretty clear why we don’t offer permanent positions right out of high school.

I say this as a liberal arts major who was hired right out of college - apparently an impossibility from the comments such a degree generates around here. :)
Speaking as a former 18 year old ;-) there is usually a total lack of maturity, conscientiousness and organisation.

It's one reason why the junky office jobs running couriers, photocopying etc are so important - to give those kids those life skills. However there are probably a lot fewer of those jobs, now, in an office. And I believe post the 2008 recession all the "kids" jobs in fast food etc went to unemployed adults, usually older.

If I have seen exceptions it was:

- sons, especially, whose fathers had died. They became the "man of the house" and acquired manners and maturity beyond their years, very quickly

- those who had had the experience of office work from teenage years, e.g. via their father's company (remember my age, it was much less likely, then, to have been the mother who had the senior professional role)

It's not entirely clear to me what college offers, except maybe age - growing up a bit. But you do grow up, socially as well as intellectually.

Unless one is aiming at a specific job (like being an architect, say, or a structural engineer) a broad liberal arts programme always seemed to be the best. You can (I have) teach anyone intelligent to do financial forecasting with a spreadsheet, what you cannot teach them in an office/ work context is habits of mental application, ability to deal with fuzzy problems & situations where the boundaries and questions are not crystal clear, etc.

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 8:04 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:52 am
Unless one is aiming at a specific job (like being an architect, say, or a structural engineer) a broad liberal arts programme always seemed to be the best. You can (I have) teach anyone intelligent to do financial forecasting with a spreadsheet, what you cannot teach them in an office/ work context is habits of mental application, ability to deal with fuzzy problems & situations where the boundaries and questions are not crystal clear, etc.
The theory is college improves critical thinking skills. The data to show most students have significant improvements in critical thinking skills is scant.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/exclusive- ... 1496686662

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: College in fall

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon May 18, 2020 9:16 am

I exaggerate, but “30 is the new 18.”
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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newcollegeman
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Re: College in fall

Post by newcollegeman » Mon May 18, 2020 9:29 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:16 am
I exaggerate, but “30 is the new 18.”
No, you are not exaggerating!

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Mon May 18, 2020 9:38 am

newcollegeman wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:29 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:16 am
I exaggerate, but “30 is the new 18.”
No, you are not exaggerating!
Having to deal with a staff of primarily <30yr olds, this is becoming ever apparent, especially during this pandemic.

potatopancake
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Re: College in fall

Post by potatopancake » Mon May 18, 2020 11:10 am

I have noticed this as well. Delayed adolescence is increasingly common in my environment. Why do we think this is the case?

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Mon May 18, 2020 11:15 am

potatopancake wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:10 am
I have noticed this as well. Delayed adolescence is increasingly common in my environment. Why do we think this is the case?
I believe the answer to be fairly simple: modern parents don't usually treat teenagers as young adults with the responsibilities, duties, and expectations thereof, but they suddenly expect them to act like adults when they turn 18. That's extremely unrealistic. Consequently, these people have to spend their 20-somethings learning how to act like adults, when they used to learn this in their teen years.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 11:25 am

potatopancake wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:10 am
I have noticed this as well. Delayed adolescence is increasingly common in my environment. Why do we think this is the case?
I don't know what you mean by delayed adolescence. To the extent, a bachelor's is the new high school diploma, and a master's is the new bachelor's, people are taking longer to start their careers. If you want to know why people are delaying marriage and having fewer kids or none at all take your pick of the sexual revolution, easier access to birth control/abortion, changing religious beliefs, women entering the workforce, high levels of student debt, the Great Recession, and many more issues outside the scope of this forum.

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Re: College in fall

Post by cheapskate » Mon May 18, 2020 1:20 pm

oldfort wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:55 pm
go_mets wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:39 pm
Sorry. I don't trust someone straight out of high school to do much of anything.
According to the statistics, USA schools rank poorly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-n ... ional-exam.
When I graduated high school, I had a five on the AP calculus exam. If you think the majority of people need to understand Lagrange multiples to do their jobs, we have very different perceptions on what skills are useful in the real world.
Yes and No.

Specific to CS and the tech industry, to succeed in the workplace as a software engineer/programmer, you really need just 5 classes - data structures, computer architecture, algorithms, operating systems, computer networking. Optionally, a class in compilers would be useful to get familiar with programming state machines. All of this can be done in about 1 year post high school, assuming the student has done a lot of programming in high school.

But. The nature and content of work in the coming decades is going to change constantly. Successful workers will need to constantly adapt, learn new skills and be very nimble. Hopefully college equips them for this. While something like Real Analysis is not useful in the workplace at all, it is great for forcing students to go beyond their comfort level, and look at things anew. Students who have been successful in a class like Real Analysis are generally not going to be fazed when thrown at an unfamiliar, not well defined problem at work.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm

cheapskate wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:20 pm
Specific to CS and the tech industry, to succeed in the workplace as a software engineer/programmer, you really need just 5 classes - data structures, computer architecture, algorithms, operating systems, computer networking. Optionally, a class in compilers would be useful to get familiar with programming state machines. All of this can be done in about 1 year post high school, assuming the student has done a lot of programming in high school.

But. The nature and content of work in the coming decades is going to change constantly. Successful workers will need to constantly adapt, learn new skills and be very nimble. Hopefully college equips them for this. While something like Real Analysis is not useful in the workplace at all, it is great for forcing students to go beyond their comfort level, and look at things anew. Students who have been successful in a class like Real Analysis are generally not going to be fazed when thrown at an unfamiliar, not well defined problem at work.
I would not want to audit the code coming from someone who did those five courses without the appropriate mathematical and critical thinking background and without diving deep into CS principles (particularly cybersecurity and test/audit principles). Those would be the sort of coders to not realize why a compiler will have different results with if(MAX_SIZE - chunk <= size) and if(size + chunk > MAX_SIZE) (the crux of the Stagefright vulnerability coding error) because it takes more than a vocational education to understand such complexities.

CS rose out of applied mathematics and there are good reasons to hire someone who has a broad CS education rather than someone who has had a vocational education or who has attended coding boot camps. Sometimes that just leads to really inefficient code (I reviewed code once that had a quadruply nested for-loop because the person didn't understand data structures). Sometimes that leads to vulnerabilities that can have massive consequences when exploited.

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 2:12 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm
I would not want to audit the code coming from someone who did those five courses without the appropriate mathematical and critical thinking background and without diving deep into CS principles (particularly cybersecurity and test/audit principles). Those would be the sort of coders to not realize why a compiler will have different results with if(MAX_SIZE - chunk <= size) and if(size + chunk > MAX_SIZE) (the crux of the Stagefright vulnerability coding error) because it takes more than a vocational education to understand such complexities.
From a cyber-security perspective, C is the root of all evil. Secure programming should be done in a language with automatic memory management. This eliminates the entire class of buffer overflow bugs. Using a modern programming language is a better strategy than relying on programmers to write bug free code.

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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 2:30 pm

cheapskate wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:20 pm
Yes and No.

Specific to CS and the tech industry, to succeed in the workplace as a software engineer/programmer, you really need just 5 classes - data structures, computer architecture, algorithms, operating systems, computer networking. Optionally, a class in compilers would be useful to get familiar with programming state machines. All of this can be done in about 1 year post high school, assuming the student has done a lot of programming in high school.

But. The nature and content of work in the coming decades is going to change constantly. Successful workers will need to constantly adapt, learn new skills and be very nimble. Hopefully college equips them for this. While something like Real Analysis is not useful in the workplace at all, it is great for forcing students to go beyond their comfort level, and look at things anew. Students who have been successful in a class like Real Analysis are generally not going to be fazed when thrown at an unfamiliar, not well defined problem at work.
CS is unique in it more than any other major than perhaps the medical fields or accounting can directly apply to your job. Is there any data showing students who have real analysis make better programmers? I would remember a news article about Google where they did a study and found almost zero correlation between college GPA and their employee performance reviews.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Mon May 18, 2020 2:33 pm

oldfort wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:12 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm
I would not want to audit the code coming from someone who did those five courses without the appropriate mathematical and critical thinking background and without diving deep into CS principles (particularly cybersecurity and test/audit principles). Those would be the sort of coders to not realize why a compiler will have different results with if(MAX_SIZE - chunk <= size) and if(size + chunk > MAX_SIZE) (the crux of the Stagefright vulnerability coding error) because it takes more than a vocational education to understand such complexities.
From a cyber-security perspective, C is the root of all evil. Secure programming should be done in a language with automatic memory management. This eliminates the entire class of buffer overflow bugs. Using a modern programming language is a better strategy than relying on programmers to write bug free code.
One is still relying on code to be perfect, but now that reliance has shifted to the compiler developers and the hardware designers. As the whole class of vulnerabilities surrounding Spectre and Meltdown have showed us, that foundation is still not perfect. Also, one has to truly understand the foundation to build successfully and reliably upon it. One might get lucky without this knowledge, and things will go fine for a while, until the luck runs out.

So even with the modern languages, one needs more than a year of training to develop a true security-minded coding mindset. Maybe not for trivial apps where the consequences of a breach are mostly in the realm of minor annoyances, but for other areas, a good education is key to building this mindset. I would not want a programmer with just a vocational experience coding an insulin pump or a pacemaker, for example. I'm not even sure someone coming out of a 4-year degree would have the proper depth of knowledge for coding a life-or-death field, but they'd at least have a stronger foundation for some domain-specific training.

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 2:43 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:33 pm
One is still relying on code to be perfect, but now that reliance has shifted to the compiler developers and the hardware designers. As the whole class of vulnerabilities surrounding Spectre and Meltdown have showed us, that foundation is still not perfect. Also, one has to truly understand the foundation to build successfully and reliably upon it. One might get lucky without this knowledge, and things will go fine for a while, until the luck runs out.
There are orders of magnitude more application developers than compiler developers. For the very small subset of programmers who will spend their careers writing compilers or kernel developers, I'll concede it's important they understand buffer overflows. For everyone else, security best practices start with never write anything in C.

frugalprof
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Re: College in fall

Post by frugalprof » Mon May 18, 2020 2:49 pm

The ACHA (American College Health Association) released updated guidelines for reopening campuses 10 days ago. You can find the PDF on this website: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 55576.html

These guidelines are extensive and sobering. There will be a tremendous burden placed on Student Health Services, which are usually understaffed even during normal times. Campuses should have a plan in place for identifying and isolating infected students. At the same time, the ACHA recommends one student per dorm room and ideally one student per bathroom for on campus housing. That will be difficult for most campuses that have a high percentage of students on campus. Regarding instruction, priority for in-person instruction should be given for labs, clinical experiences, and performances such as those in the fine arts (areas where online assessment is difficult). The recommendation for everything else is a hybrid of in-person and online instruction. Class size should be limited to 30 for in-person instruction.

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HomerJ
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Re: College in fall

Post by HomerJ » Mon May 18, 2020 3:20 pm

cshell2 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 2:15 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:09 am

This was the same with both of my kids meals plans, and I think they are designed this was on purpose. Neither kid used their mail plan to the fullest as they quickly became bored with the meal choices. However it was still nice to know they had a meal available if nothing else.

Some things to think about, will your son actually go back to the dorm / cafeteria for the lunch time meal. Can the plan be used at other meal kiosks around campus. Does you son actually eat breakfast, or will they sleep until 10 minutes before class and run out the door...
He does eat breakfast now. But, I wonder if he really would on campus with odd schedules...probably not...three all you can eat meals a day seems kind of excessive even for him. I would imagine at least one meal a day would be skipped and that extra $200 for unlimited would probably be a waste. The meal swipes can only be used in the cafeteria. There is a cash allocation ($100 with the lowest plan) that can be used for other dining places.
What are the cafeteria hours? I got the unlimited plan for my son, but his school's cafeteria offers food all the way to midnight (just pizza and snacks from 8:00-12:00), and I know there will be times when he is going to want something at 11:30 pm.

We're paying the extra $200 or so for the first year... We'll re-evaluate next year.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Mon May 18, 2020 3:37 pm

A college president said this is a new article in The Atlantic.
Because of the manner in which most residential colleges are operated, these institutions cannot use traditional face-to-face instructional methods and expect anything other than an unacceptable rate of disease transmission. Because we do not yet have the ability to bring students and staff back to campus while keeping them safe and healthy, we simply cannot return to business as usual. To do so constitutes an abdication of our moral responsibility as leaders.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ke/611485/
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

ScoobyDoo
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Re: College in fall

Post by ScoobyDoo » Mon May 18, 2020 3:43 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm
cheapskate wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:20 pm
Specific to CS and the tech industry, to succeed in the workplace as a software engineer/programmer, you really need just 5 classes - data structures, computer architecture, algorithms, operating systems, computer networking. Optionally, a class in compilers would be useful to get familiar with programming state machines. All of this can be done in about 1 year post high school, assuming the student has done a lot of programming in high school.

But. The nature and content of work in the coming decades is going to change constantly. Successful workers will need to constantly adapt, learn new skills and be very nimble. Hopefully college equips them for this. While something like Real Analysis is not useful in the workplace at all, it is great for forcing students to go beyond their comfort level, and look at things anew. Students who have been successful in a class like Real Analysis are generally not going to be fazed when thrown at an unfamiliar, not well defined problem at work.
I would not want to audit the code coming from someone who did those five courses without the appropriate mathematical and critical thinking background and without diving deep into CS principles (particularly cybersecurity and test/audit principles). Those would be the sort of coders to not realize why a compiler will have different results with if(MAX_SIZE - chunk <= size) and if(size + chunk > MAX_SIZE) (the crux of the Stagefright vulnerability coding error) because it takes more than a vocational education to understand such complexities.

CS rose out of applied mathematics and there are good reasons to hire someone who has a broad CS education rather than someone who has had a vocational education or who has attended coding boot camps. Sometimes that just leads to really inefficient code (I reviewed code once that had a quadruply nested for-loop because the person didn't understand data structures). Sometimes that leads to vulnerabilities that can have massive consequences when exploited.
The problem with this train of thought is that the majority of the companies hiring developers do not want a smart CS trained thinker. Truth be told the really i intelligent developers I’ve worked with are beat into submission by the powers that be to not implement efficient designs. At this point in my career working in the megacorp, the architecture & design of systems are in the past.

The ‘successful developers’ in this position are the ones that conform to the organization’s norms and follow directions....maybe inserting an innovative thought here or there in a function or feature. This is a vast majority of CS jobs where you don’t need a CS degree. If you have one you are aware of the total ineffective and i efficiency of the designs and decisions but what can you do.

I would also say the Degree helps one with the critical thinking skills necessary to adapt to such an environment to make the changes that are possible in ones organization. Maybe this can be learned or maybe this is a certain personality/mindset. idk.

Obviously if you work there n a SV startup type environment, it may be different. But the reality is most coders only need a degree to get past the interview! The. knowing the technology, vertical, and/or culture of an organization is what propels one to the upper echelons....
ScoobyDoo!

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 4:16 pm

onourway wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:10 am
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
The small engineering firm I work at always has a handful of high school and early college students working part time. It’s pretty clear why we don’t offer permanent positions right out of high school.

I say this as a liberal arts major who was hired right out of college - apparently an impossibility from the comments such a degree generates around here. :)
Working for the federal government, the most important skill is having a deep knowledge of the thousands of pages of government policies, regulations, directives, and instructions. The second most important set of skills would be be familiarity with in house tools and software. College is essentially useless for preparing people for work, which is learned predominantly on the job.

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Re: College in fall

Post by cheapskate » Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:56 pm
I would not want to audit the code coming from someone who did those five courses without the appropriate mathematical and critical thinking background and without diving deep into CS principles (particularly cybersecurity and test/audit principles). Those would be the sort of coders to not realize why a compiler will have different results with if(MAX_SIZE - chunk <= size) and if(size + chunk > MAX_SIZE) (the crux of the Stagefright vulnerability coding error) because it takes more than a vocational education to understand such complexities.

CS rose out of applied mathematics and there are good reasons to hire someone who has a broad CS education rather than someone who has had a vocational education or who has attended coding boot camps. Sometimes that just leads to really inefficient code (I reviewed code once that had a quadruply nested for-loop because the person didn't understand data structures). Sometimes that leads to vulnerabilities that can have massive consequences when exploited.
Over the past 15+ years, the trend is towards the development and rollout of development frameworks that push more and more programmers further up the stack. The vast majority of programmers today code in Python or Java or similar. They don't necessarily need to burden themselves with exposing attack surfaces via word under/overflows. My comment about the 5 or 6 courses being necessary and sufficient was aimed at that. Technical job openings in the industry is a pyramid, there are very small number of AI/ML/Distributed Systems or other niche CS MS/PhDs at the very top, right below that are a slightly larger number of programmers working on various infrastructure, where a strong CS education is very beneficial. But the vast majority of job openings are for programmers working with these very high level development frameworks.

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Re: College in fall

Post by cheapskate » Mon May 18, 2020 4:32 pm

oldfort wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:30 pm
CS is unique in it more than any other major than perhaps the medical fields or accounting can directly apply to your job. Is there any data showing students who have real analysis make better programmers? I would remember a news article about Google where they did a study and found almost zero correlation between college GPA and their employee performance reviews.
I remember seeing that Google study. Real Analysis was just a random example, you could sub that with many other things. College graduates entering the workforce today will likely have their job function change quite a bit over a 40 year career, given accelerating change driven by technology and globalization. I think a grad that starts out in a programming job out of college has to expect that (s)he will be doing something completely different within 10 years. Hopefully college will equip them with the critical thinking, analytical skills, communication skills to be able to transition well to new roles that might be quite different from what their past role was. College is neither necessary nor sufficient to develop those skills and be nimble to change successfully with the times, but hopefully college will be a significant help there.

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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Mon May 18, 2020 4:49 pm

cheapskate wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:32 pm
Hopefully college will equip them with the critical thinking, analytical skills, communication skills to be able to transition well to new roles that might be quite different from what their past role was. College is neither necessary nor sufficient to develop those skills and be nimble to change successfully with the times, but hopefully college will be a significant help there.
The conventional wisdom is colleges develop critical thinking and analytical skills, but where's the peer reviewed research to support this conclusion? More to the point where's the data to show critical thinking and analytical skills, however measured, result in higher income?

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Re: College in fall

Post by Vulcan » Mon May 18, 2020 5:12 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:03 pm
The current recession will, I suspect, lead to stronger college enrollments than we would have seen otherwise over the course of the next several years. There will likely be a dip this fall, but I fully expect the numbers to rebound significantly in 2021 and 2022. When great employment prospects aren't found at every corner, higher ed looks more attractive.
MIT reported record yield this year.

Expensive mid-tier privates and publics that depend on significant OOS enrollment may be facing rough waters.

Even Vanderbilt saw it fit to increase its RD admit rate by a whopping 40%.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase

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Re: College in fall

Post by RetiredCSProf » Mon May 18, 2020 5:35 pm

As a retired computer scientist and former part-time CS professor (taught compiler construction and operating systems), I'm tempted to jump into the discussion of a CS education, but we digress ...

My son will be entering his senior year this fall at a Cal State (online classes). Instead of being in an apt near campus, he will be at home. I'm wondering how things will work out, as CA starts to reopen. Will my son's friends start socializing again in person -- turning my house into a "frat house," as they've done in previous summers? Will I turn into a "germ freak"?

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Re: College in fall

Post by AD3 » Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.

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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Mon May 18, 2020 9:35 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:20 pm

What are the cafeteria hours? I got the unlimited plan for my son, but his school's cafeteria offers food all the way to midnight (just pizza and snacks from 8:00-12:00), and I know there will be times when he is going to want something at 11:30 pm.

We're paying the extra $200 or so for the first year... We'll re-evaluate next year.
Good point. Currently it lists the hours as 7am-8pm, but I'm not sure if that's normal or reduced summer session hours.

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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Mon May 18, 2020 9:43 pm

AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
That was the point of the university president I was quoting above: they can't.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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greg24
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Re: College in fall

Post by greg24 » Mon May 18, 2020 9:45 pm

U of South Carolina announced they are having on-campus classes, but will not return to campus after Thanksgiving.

https://www.thestate.com/news/local/edu ... 07331.html
The decision to return to only a virtual classroom after Thanksgiving was made because the university’s models show a spike in cases of COVID-19 at the beginning of December, which is also the start of traditional flu season, Caslen said.

There will be two remote class days on Nov. 30 and Dec. 1, followed by reading days before final exams are held from Dec. 7-14. Those tests will also be held remotely, according to the statement.

That is not the only time when USC will hold its classes online. Labor Day and Election Day will also be remote class days, according to the statement.

Concerns about the spread of the coronavirus were also the primary factor in canceling fall break, which had been scheduled for Oct. 15-16.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Katietsu » Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 am

The August 10-Thanksgiving schedule with no fall break seems to be trending right now. I hope it is successful as I live in one of the college towns. It is my understanding that some of University scientists here are working on developing a system of testing returning students. At this point, I believe they are planning only on a single test upon arrival with no routine testing during the semester. I am not holding breathe at the success of this approach but it is better than just crossing your fingers. Based on past years’ of influenza spread and the spread of coronavirus in a couple of mostly empty student apartments this April, I expect any infection to spread quickly. I think this is especially true since this group has determined that they are not at risk of dying. At college, even the deterrent that they might expose their own vulnerable loved ones is gone.

DH and O are in that middled age/medium risk and trying to figure out if we should plan on time off in September if this experiment starts to go bad. The administration was looking to encourage the retirement of older tenured faculty - This might help them accomplish that goal without the need for financial incentives.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am

If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?

JD2775
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Re: College in fall

Post by JD2775 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 am

AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
I have seen that a few places lately.....schools talking about starting earlier (in August) and ending the semester early (by Thanksgiving). Does anyone know the reason for this? My guess is to have a longer break between semesters during peak flu season, but not sure.

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Re: College in fall

Post by flyingaway » Tue May 19, 2020 9:38 am

JD2775 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 am
AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
I have seen that a few places lately.....schools talking about starting earlier (in August) and ending the semester early (by Thanksgiving). Does anyone know the reason for this? My guess is to have a longer break between semesters during peak flu season, but not sure.
Some people think that warm weather is good to suppress the virus. When the cold weather comes back, the virus situation may become severe. So ending the semester earlier might help.

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Re: College in fall

Post by flyingaway » Tue May 19, 2020 9:40 am

Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
I don't know how many students really want to learn many things. A diploma (degree) is what they want, in order to find a job.

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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:43 am

Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
It could be easily argued, however, that online instruction is not necessarily 'less' instruction. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it's certainly no less work for the instructor. But certainly schools shouldn't be charging for dorms that aren't being used. I know that a handful of private universities charge an all-in-one fee that includes dorms, and those will almost certainly need to drop their fee.
flyingaway wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:40 am
Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
I don't know how many students really want to learn many things. A diploma (degree) is what they want, in order to find a job.
You're sadly correct. I would estimate that only about 10% of the students going to public universities are really interested in learning. And even those who are are still definitely wanting career enhancement.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

flyingaway
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Re: College in fall

Post by flyingaway » Tue May 19, 2020 9:45 am

Katietsu wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 am
The August 10-Thanksgiving schedule with no fall break seems to be trending right now. I hope it is successful as I live in one of the college towns. It is my understanding that some of University scientists here are working on developing a system of testing returning students. At this point, I believe they are planning only on a single test upon arrival with no routine testing during the semester. I am not holding breathe at the success of this approach but it is better than just crossing your fingers. Based on past years’ of influenza spread and the spread of coronavirus in a couple of mostly empty student apartments this April, I expect any infection to spread quickly. I think this is especially true since this group has determined that they are not at risk of dying. At college, even the deterrent that they might expose their own vulnerable loved ones is gone.

DH and O are in that middled age/medium risk and trying to figure out if we should plan on time off in September if this experiment starts to go bad. The administration was looking to encourage the retirement of older tenured faculty - This might help them accomplish that goal without the need for financial incentives.
Facing funding shortage, my university is encouraging every one to retire, not just older tenured faculty. I have not heard news about anyone retiring from my department. Judging from the online department meetings, those of 60s and 70s year old faculty are not planning to retire.

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Re: College in fall

Post by ncbill » Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm

JD2775 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 am
AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
I have seen that a few places lately.....schools talking about starting earlier (in August) and ending the semester early (by Thanksgiving). Does anyone know the reason for this? My guess is to have a longer break between semesters during peak flu season, but not sure.
My guess is so that the students who have been successfully infected by being crammed together on-campus can now pass on their infection to all those back home...call it a modified Swedish approach. :)

I really, really hope my kid's school decides to stay online-only this coming fall semester since their tuition/fees are covered by scholarship...it'd save me thousands of bucks otherwise spent on room & board.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:03 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:45 am
Katietsu wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:21 am
The August 10-Thanksgiving schedule with no fall break seems to be trending right now. I hope it is successful as I live in one of the college towns. It is my understanding that some of University scientists here are working on developing a system of testing returning students. At this point, I believe they are planning only on a single test upon arrival with no routine testing during the semester. I am not holding breathe at the success of this approach but it is better than just crossing your fingers. Based on past years’ of influenza spread and the spread of coronavirus in a couple of mostly empty student apartments this April, I expect any infection to spread quickly. I think this is especially true since this group has determined that they are not at risk of dying. At college, even the deterrent that they might expose their own vulnerable loved ones is gone.

DH and O are in that middled age/medium risk and trying to figure out if we should plan on time off in September if this experiment starts to go bad. The administration was looking to encourage the retirement of older tenured faculty - This might help them accomplish that goal without the need for financial incentives.
Facing funding shortage, my university is encouraging every one to retire, not just older tenured faculty. I have not heard news about anyone retiring from my department. Judging from the online department meetings, those of 60s and 70s year old faculty are not planning to retire.
The problem is that many of those who probably could retire don't want to right now given all of the recent volatility in the markets. Stocks have largely recovered their earlier losses, but many are still really skittish.

I'm fully anticipating that our institution will shut down many programs that have been languishing without even a dozen students for years. That should have been done long ago, but higher ed is so radically egalitarian that many never want to cut anything. Also, I won't be surprised if retirement packages are offered again to nudge some older folks out the door. There's already a hiring and purchasing freeze in place. Furloughs are likely as well in my estimation.

One of the problems that many institutions will face is dealing with the 'whip' effect when virus concerns are gone, perhaps in the fall of 2021, and economic concerns drive many to pursue a degree the way that recessions nearly always do.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

MDfan
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Re: College in fall

Post by MDfan » Tue May 19, 2020 1:22 pm

ncbill wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm
JD2775 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 am
AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
I have seen that a few places lately.....schools talking about starting earlier (in August) and ending the semester early (by Thanksgiving). Does anyone know the reason for this? My guess is to have a longer break between semesters during peak flu season, but not sure.
My guess is so that the students who have been successfully infected by being crammed together on-campus can now pass on their infection to all those back home...call it a modified Swedish approach. :)

I really, really hope my kid's school decides to stay online-only this coming fall semester since their tuition/fees are covered by scholarship...it'd save me thousands of bucks otherwise spent on room & board.

I don't care about paying extra $. I want my daughter's school to be open if possible so she doesn't have to do on-line school again. I'd gladly pay thousands of bucks for her to have a normal college experience. That may not be possible, though. But we're already paying about $900 for an apartment next year so she'll be going back to school regardless of whether they're on-line or not.

multiham
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Re: College in fall

Post by multiham » Tue May 19, 2020 1:27 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:43 am
Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
It could be easily argued, however, that online instruction is not necessarily 'less' instruction. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it's certainly no less work for the instructor. But certainly schools shouldn't be charging for dorms that aren't being used. I know that a handful of private universities charge an all-in-one fee that includes dorms, and those will almost certainly need to drop their fee.
flyingaway wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:40 am
Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
I don't know how many students really want to learn many things. A diploma (degree) is what they want, in order to find a job.
You're sadly correct. I would estimate that only about 10% of the students going to public universities are really interested in learning. And even those who are are still definitely wanting career enhancement.
I must know many of the 10%. While my son and his friends love the college "Experience" they are very interested in learning. My son and many of his friends are doing on-line classes in Tableau, Excel, and Python just to learn new skills. They are business majors so these are not required classes or skill sets.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:35 pm

multiham wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:43 am
Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
It could be easily argued, however, that online instruction is not necessarily 'less' instruction. I can tell you from firsthand experience that it's certainly no less work for the instructor. But certainly schools shouldn't be charging for dorms that aren't being used. I know that a handful of private universities charge an all-in-one fee that includes dorms, and those will almost certainly need to drop their fee.
flyingaway wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:40 am
Gray wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am
If they’re reducing the amount of instruction, they should reduce tuition, fees, and dorm costs by the same percentage. Otherwise, why wouldn’t a student choose a gap year?
I don't know how many students really want to learn many things. A diploma (degree) is what they want, in order to find a job.
You're sadly correct. I would estimate that only about 10% of the students going to public universities are really interested in learning. And even those who are are still definitely wanting career enhancement.
I must know many of the 10%. While my son and his friends love the college "Experience" they are very interested in learning. My son and many of his friends are doing on-line classes in Tableau, Excel, and Python just to learn new skills. They are business majors so these are not required classes or skill sets.
Count yourself (and your son and his friends) blessed. They are far from the norm of most institutions of higher learning these days.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: College in fall

Post by ncbill » Tue May 19, 2020 1:51 pm

MDfan wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:22 pm
ncbill wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:49 pm
JD2775 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:33 am
AD3 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/us/n ... virus.html

It looks like Norte Dame is opening up for fall on August 10 for the fall semester, they are moving the start date up two weeks in order to finish the semester by thanksgiving. This seems a little short sided on decision making, the university has around 12,000 students and I'm wondering how they will test students and how often that will occur. I'm also wondering how they limit large gatherings, or whether greek life will occur during the fall. I would have a hard time sending my son or daughter to across the country during a pandemic in order to get a education especially with all of the unknowns about this virus. How will the university account for students that preconditions and might be at risk for covid? If I was a parent with a student in college I would be nervous about all of this.
I have seen that a few places lately.....schools talking about starting earlier (in August) and ending the semester early (by Thanksgiving). Does anyone know the reason for this? My guess is to have a longer break between semesters during peak flu season, but not sure.
My guess is so that the students who have been successfully infected by being crammed together on-campus can now pass on their infection to all those back home...call it a modified Swedish approach. :)

I really, really hope my kid's school decides to stay online-only this coming fall semester since their tuition/fees are covered by scholarship...it'd save me thousands of bucks otherwise spent on room & board.

I don't care about paying extra $. I want my daughter's school to be open if possible so she doesn't have to do on-line school again. I'd gladly pay thousands of bucks for her to have a normal college experience. That may not be possible, though. But we're already paying about $900 for an apartment next year so she'll be going back to school regardless of whether they're on-line or not.
Guess it depends on how well both the school and the individual student do with the online experience...in our case the school already had a large online presence in addition to multiple physical campuses.

And our kid has not experienced any problems moving to online instruction, which is fortunate since they had already signed up for an online class this summer as a prerequisite to a class they want this fall...to be fair, though, I'm sure their non-STEM major (e.g., no labs) helped with the transition to online learning, however long it lasts.

xenochrony
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Re: College in fall

Post by xenochrony » Tue May 19, 2020 2:02 pm

Ive made it clear to the admissions officers of my HS senior's college that should they go all or mostly online we simply will not pay or enroll our daughter. As a STEM major / athlete, an online approach is simply unacceptable and would be catastrophic. No thank you. Many of my friends with HS senior kids have the same position. Though each have different solutions (e.g gap year, Community college, etc.).

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