College in fall

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 13, 2020 6:57 pm

Kookaburra wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:53 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:20 pm
Initially, most of them were saying that they were 'planning' on face-to-face courses, but that was just a ruse in order to keep enrollment numbers up.
My thinking exactly. I like reading in the news how they “are committed to having in-person classes in the fall.” Let’s see how well that commitment holds up when they have to comply with state orders to close and/or confront the legal liability risks inherent with proceeding.
Precisely. A commitment to meet face-to-face is worthless in the face of the law saying otherwise.

An employer of one of the students in my department sent one of my instructors a very nasty email, saying that our university was in breach of contract for not having face-to-face classes. It's hard for me to believe that there are such morons out there that somehow manage to run businesses.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm

RetiredCSProf wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:27 am
The CSUs are planning to make some exceptions to online classes in the Fall -- nursing students need to earn clinical hours as part of their training.
It seems like the CSU Chancellor's remarks were directed at what is called a "nursing simulation lab" where they practice on high-tech manikins. Actual clinicals at a hospital or other medical facility are another matter that wasn't really addressed.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 13, 2020 7:08 pm

Mudpuppy wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:27 am
The CSUs are planning to make some exceptions to online classes in the Fall -- nursing students need to earn clinical hours as part of their training.
It seems like the CSU Chancellor's remarks were directed at what is called a "nursing simulation lab" where they practice on high-tech manikins. Actual clinicals at a hospital or other medical facility are another matter that wasn't really addressed.
Some universities at least will apparently allow some face-to-face interaction for courses that absolutely cannot be administered online. It's looking like they will still have to practice social distancing though. One university has said that there must be 100 sq. ft. of classroom space per student in such courses. This will result in some small sections, and it means that the number of students in each course will be reduced significantly in most instances. It will be important for motivated students to register for such courses the second that the courses are opened for enrollment.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

AD3
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Re: College in fall

Post by AD3 » Thu May 14, 2020 1:49 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:08 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:27 am
The CSUs are planning to make some exceptions to online classes in the Fall -- nursing students need to earn clinical hours as part of their training.
It seems like the CSU Chancellor's remarks were directed at what is called a "nursing simulation lab" where they practice on high-tech manikins. Actual clinicals at a hospital or other medical facility are another matter that wasn't really addressed.
Some universities at least will apparently allow some face-to-face interaction for courses that absolutely cannot be administered online. It's looking like they will still have to practice social distancing though. One university has said that there must be 100 sq. ft. of classroom space per student in such courses. This will result in some small sections, and it means that the number of students in each course will be reduced significantly in most instances. It will be important for motivated students to register for such courses the second that the courses are opened for enrollment.
I have a hard time believing that students will be back on campus in the fall, for instance they state face to face interaction, how do they accommodate for students that are not from the area? My son went to one of UC's and his dorm room was about 120sqft for 3 students, literally a bunk bed and a single bed in one room, in addition they shared a bathroom with 3 other students. There is no logically way to social distance from each student. I think the Universities are trying wait until students commit to the university and have no other option to enroll at a community college.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Thu May 14, 2020 1:58 pm

AD3 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 1:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:08 pm
Mudpuppy wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:27 am
The CSUs are planning to make some exceptions to online classes in the Fall -- nursing students need to earn clinical hours as part of their training.
It seems like the CSU Chancellor's remarks were directed at what is called a "nursing simulation lab" where they practice on high-tech manikins. Actual clinicals at a hospital or other medical facility are another matter that wasn't really addressed.
Some universities at least will apparently allow some face-to-face interaction for courses that absolutely cannot be administered online. It's looking like they will still have to practice social distancing though. One university has said that there must be 100 sq. ft. of classroom space per student in such courses. This will result in some small sections, and it means that the number of students in each course will be reduced significantly in most instances. It will be important for motivated students to register for such courses the second that the courses are opened for enrollment.
I have a hard time believing that students will be back on campus in the fall, for instance they state face to face interaction, how do they accommodate for students that are not from the area? My son went to one of UC's and his dorm room was about 120sqft for 3 students, literally a bunk bed and a single bed in one room, in addition they shared a bathroom with 3 other students. There is no logically way to social distance from each student. I think the Universities are trying wait until students commit to the university and have no other option to enroll at a community college.
They're also waiting for state officials to tell them that they cannot resume face-to-face classes so that the universities don't take the heat.

At my university, they will only allow no more than one student in each dorm room at least for the fall. But without face-to-face instructions, there won't be many students in the dorms at all.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

wfrobinette
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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:41 am
protagonist wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:31 am
Just an idea (I don't know if this would work but others could chime in)....

Assuming your child was accepted in a $60K/year school....when August comes and it seems like they are still only offering online education at full price, ask to defer enrollment for a year and have your child attend community college online for the first year. If they take a full challenging curriculum they should hopefully be able to transfer the credits to the private university and you will have saved the bulk of the $60K. The online education would probably not be much (if at all) inferior .... they would just be taking freshman core courses.
It would be unlikely to be able to transfer credits unless agreed to and approved in advance by the private university. So it's not something you can do and assume it will end well, if attending the original university.
At 60k a year I'd be darn sure its worth not just taking the rigorous 2 years at the local CC then transfer to one of the best schools for her major. There is no way I'd pay 60k to do online versions of Freshman classes. It really sucks for these kids on what they are missing out on. I'd really be concerned about the online experience at 60k school as well. If the school isn't already doing it it's going to be hard for them to start it up now and keep the same caliber of instruction.

I'm worried about my daughter entering her freshman year of HS on how that's going to pan out.

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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Thu May 14, 2020 2:15 pm

Monsterflockster wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:58 am
Calhoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 am
My daughter is graduating from high school this June and is planning on starting college this coming fall a state over.

I know that our state universities have sent students home where they're taking classes remotely online.

Sounds like the best guess at this point is that the virus may or may not wane in the summer months but will most likely rebound in the normal flu season.

Are plans changing for kids going to college next fall? Seems like a lot of money to spend if my daughter is going to wind up taking classes from my basement.
My advice and what many families are doing: deferring admittance for a semester/year and going to the local Junior College to start.

Why pay for a non-refundable room & meal plan if they’re at home anyway? JV classes will be online and save you a lot of money.

As for transferring credits... look into it but to most universities they transfer. I have seen students transfer to Cal, Stanford, Ivy Leagues, etc. from a JC. It is much easier in state as many have to accepted all credits is an AA is earned but if you transfer early still only one or two classes may not be accepted due to the way the course is strictured. I have never heard of a school not accepting any of thevtransfer credits.

One family I know hadbtheir child go to JC then transfer to CAL then to Stanford med school. The money they saved on those two years was upwards of 120k.

I’d look into it. Definitely worth the option.
+1 unless it's a major they start classes right out of the gate as freshman. Engineering and CS come to mind.

I'm planning on pushing my daughter in that direction.

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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm

Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.

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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Thu May 14, 2020 3:03 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:41 pm
I know both of my college kids have said they will take a semester / year off if their colleges only do online in the fall. Both have said the value of the online learning is so subpar to what they were getting they dont feel its worth continue with online classes.

My youngest said in one class they have not had a homework assignment since mid February, every one is just goofing off in Zoom. He has decided to just read the text book cover to cover and study on his own.

Im worried however just taking a single semester off might be problematic. Many classes are setup where the once course is only offered in the fall and you cannot progress to the next course offer in the Spring semester without the fall class.
Then take 2 off.

I have no idea why we(myself included) are so hell bent on pushing our kids straight off to college, grad programs then into the workforce. In the grand scheme of things 1 or 2 years experimenting with life or working . Heck, I flunked out year 1, worked as a vacuum salesman then the youngest manager in a little Caesars franchise, didn't get back to school until 21.5 and still took 5 years to finish while working 20 or so hours a week, summer school and seeing a ton of Dead shows, masters at 38 and in the top 10% of income by 40. Left management at 49 (this year) and enjoying life as an individual contributor with minimal stress. No where near ready for retirement financially.

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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Thu May 14, 2020 3:18 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:03 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:41 pm
I know both of my college kids have said they will take a semester / year off if their colleges only do online in the fall. Both have said the value of the online learning is so subpar to what they were getting they dont feel its worth continue with online classes.

My youngest said in one class they have not had a homework assignment since mid February, every one is just goofing off in Zoom. He has decided to just read the text book cover to cover and study on his own.

Im worried however just taking a single semester off might be problematic. Many classes are setup where the once course is only offered in the fall and you cannot progress to the next course offer in the Spring semester without the fall class.
Then take 2 off.

I have no idea why we(myself included) are so hell bent on pushing our kids straight off to college, grad programs then into the workforce. In the grand scheme of things 1 or 2 years experimenting with life or working . Heck, I flunked out year 1, worked as a vacuum salesman then the youngest manager in a little Caesars franchise, didn't get back to school until 21.5 and still took 5 years to finish while working 20 or so hours a week, summer school and seeing a ton of Dead shows, masters at 38 and in the top 10% of income by 40. Left management at 49 (this year) and enjoying life as an individual contributor with minimal stress. No where near ready for retirement financially.
I agree, but the risk is that someone takes the time off and does absolutely nothing. That is the rub with this situation, it is going to be really difficult for these young adults to find employment at this time. So, I would suspect that many of those who decide to take a semester/year off, at this time, are likely to spend it doing little to nothing productive. I'd be exploring every option to get in cheap credits.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.

To the OP, you don't know that your local community college will open in the fall. If Tech doesn't open, likely no Virginia state colleges (including community) will open. My younger son is in community college right now and we're preparing that he will skip a semester if it's all online. He barely made it through the last 2 months of this semester online. It doesn't work for him. Maybe your daughter is different... Our older son, just graduating did absolutely fine with his last class online. But he didn't pass another class 2 summers ago that was online while he was away doing an internship.

For Transfer IN, the only downside I see is that students are offered NO merit aid. If your daughter gets significant merit aid, ok. If not, why is this a problem. VT's application isn't all that difficult. What you'd need to research is exactly what courses.....where.....would be transferable into the specific department she would transfer into. It makes a difference. My younger son's in community college and we looked at this extensively. A course that's perfectly acceptable with a B or better (a common requirement...a C won't transfer) into CS may not transfer into ECE. I know this looking at UMass Lowell with my son, where he plans to possibly transfer in the future. Also, courses are NOT the same from one college to the next. We have a lot of transfer experience. I transferred myself, along with my best buddy, Fred Flintstone. My older son transferred in, so I know about that. My older son also took community and state college courses while dropping to part time at the private college, first getting the approved listing of outside institution courses from his college. And my younger son plans to transfer, so we're looking at that for the future.
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MDfan
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Re: College in fall

Post by MDfan » Thu May 14, 2020 6:37 pm

We've already signed a 12-month lease for an apartment (had to do it last October and its not cheap) so my daughter will be on/near campus at her large SEC school whether classes are on-line or not. She wants to be there wither her roommates/friends anyway. Luckily, she's in the Academic Common Market program so we're paying in-state tuition.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm
At 60k a year I'd be darn sure its worth not just taking the rigorous 2 years at the local CC then transfer to one of the best schools for her major. There is no way I'd pay 60k to do online versions of Freshman classes. It really sucks for these kids on what they are missing out on. I'd really be concerned about the online experience at 60k school as well. If the school isn't already doing it it's going to be hard for them to start it up now and keep the same caliber of instruction.
That plan assumes the community college can actually take on the additional students and offer sufficient seats/sections for students to remain on track for transferring. During the last economic downturn, the local community colleges were not able to keep up with demand. Classes filled up quickly and students were not always able to get a full load of useful courses (e.g. ones that would transfer). I recall several news articles on these issues, and I would not be surprised if they happen again during this economic downturn.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Doctopetala » Fri May 15, 2020 6:53 am

cshell2 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:52 pm
I wonder if all schools will take a similar approach or if some will decide to open and others not? If so, I wonder if there will be a movement of students towards schools opening their campus? I know a lot of people are sitting on acceptances and schools are pushing back the date you have to commit. Some as late as August now.
I think we'll see a lot of herd mentality in terms of schools' decisions, in much the same way that many countries (excluding the US, UK, and Sweden among developed countries) quickly followed rather similar strategies. I suspect it'll be really challenging for a school to justify opening if many other schools remain closed, and vice versa.

Re closure, Cal State (half a million students) won't be opening their campuses this fall: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/c ... asses.html

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Fri May 15, 2020 8:37 am

Doctopetala wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:53 am
cshell2 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:52 pm
I wonder if all schools will take a similar approach or if some will decide to open and others not? If so, I wonder if there will be a movement of students towards schools opening their campus? I know a lot of people are sitting on acceptances and schools are pushing back the date you have to commit. Some as late as August now.
I think we'll see a lot of herd mentality in terms of schools' decisions, in much the same way that many countries (excluding the US, UK, and Sweden among developed countries) quickly followed rather similar strategies. I suspect it'll be really challenging for a school to justify opening if many other schools remain closed, and vice versa.

Re closure, Cal State (half a million students) won't be opening their campuses this fall: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/us/c ... asses.html
I'm in the Midwest and some of my son's friends that originally chose CA schools are keeping more local options in their back pocket. Many schools are hurting for students this year and can't afford the cut to revenue, so I could see staying open as being a huge draw to fill all those empty seats. It will be interesting to watch it unfold. So far, the schools around here are all saying they fully intend to open this Fall but they have alternative plans in the works if it's deemed unsafe. I prefer this to just making a call in May. Aug/Sept is an eternity away, so much could change before then.

wfrobinette
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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.

wfrobinette
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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 9:00 am

stoptothink wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:18 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:03 pm
SimonJester wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:41 pm
I know both of my college kids have said they will take a semester / year off if their colleges only do online in the fall. Both have said the value of the online learning is so subpar to what they were getting they dont feel its worth continue with online classes.

My youngest said in one class they have not had a homework assignment since mid February, every one is just goofing off in Zoom. He has decided to just read the text book cover to cover and study on his own.

Im worried however just taking a single semester off might be problematic. Many classes are setup where the once course is only offered in the fall and you cannot progress to the next course offer in the Spring semester without the fall class.
Then take 2 off.

I have no idea why we(myself included) are so hell bent on pushing our kids straight off to college, grad programs then into the workforce. In the grand scheme of things 1 or 2 years experimenting with life or working . Heck, I flunked out year 1, worked as a vacuum salesman then the youngest manager in a little Caesars franchise, didn't get back to school until 21.5 and still took 5 years to finish while working 20 or so hours a week, summer school and seeing a ton of Dead shows, masters at 38 and in the top 10% of income by 40. Left management at 49 (this year) and enjoying life as an individual contributor with minimal stress. No where near ready for retirement financially.
I agree, but the risk is that someone takes the time off and does absolutely nothing. That is the rub with this situation, it is going to be really difficult for these young adults to find employment at this time. So, I would suspect that many of those who decide to take a semester/year off, at this time, are likely to spend it doing little to nothing productive. I'd be exploring every option to get in cheap credits.
I can't disagree. But one could take coursea courses and volunteer or something. I know they don't transfer but its something. My biggest concern is that they have online classes and really don't learn that much either. Like I said earlier my daughter is starting HS and I've seen her attitude toward online learning in middle school. She's only having to spend about 2 to 3 hours of week doing work. She's not learning much at all. I suspect the same thing to be true of most graduating HS and entering college. Unprecedented times here.

wfrobinette
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Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 9:05 am

Mudpuppy wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm
At 60k a year I'd be darn sure its worth not just taking the rigorous 2 years at the local CC then transfer to one of the best schools for her major. There is no way I'd pay 60k to do online versions of Freshman classes. It really sucks for these kids on what they are missing out on. I'd really be concerned about the online experience at 60k school as well. If the school isn't already doing it it's going to be hard for them to start it up now and keep the same caliber of instruction.
That plan assumes the community college can actually take on the additional students and offer sufficient seats/sections for students to remain on track for transferring. During the last economic downturn, the local community colleges were not able to keep up with demand. Classes filled up quickly and students were not always able to get a full load of useful courses (e.g. ones that would transfer). I recall several news articles on these issues, and I would not be surprised if they happen again during this economic downturn.
Good point. I honestly don't think there is a win/win situation here.

What if the social distancing stuff goes on for years and they have to cut enrollments across the board to maintain a healthy environment? Maybe paying and moving forward online is the best idea.

oldfatguy
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfatguy » Fri May 15, 2020 9:10 am

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.
I am curious to know which items in the list should be cheaper, and why?
Last edited by oldfatguy on Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.

Katietsu
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:48 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Katietsu » Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am

stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
I think part of the point of questioning this is that the tuition and fees are only about half the cost outlined. The cost cited by Jack includes everything even shampoo. So even if the tuition and fees were the $10,000 that you refer to as being reasonable, all in costs used to provide financial aid would still be listed as $25,000. The costs that VT actually controls is tuition and fees regardless of the estimate. The student controls spending on food, transportation, etc.

wfrobinette
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:14 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 11:43 am

stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Having a teacher is better than death-by-PowerPoint. I know my daughter and the pressure of a professor guiding learning and assisting with work is better than none. I’ve never been able to get her interested in Kahn Academy type courses.

She is pretty bored with current senior high school online instruction. She is motivated by teacher/student interactions.

I would happily pay for courses without transferring credits ONLY for the opportunity to keep her learning and growing. For Zoom quality instruction, I’ll pay a community college fare.

To give you an idea of what VT costs, for the 2020-2021 in-state, undergrad, on-campus students, it is:

Tuition: $11,750
Fees: $2,350
College of Engineering Fees: $2,000
Room: ($5,670) and Board ($4,220): $9,890
Books and Supplies: $1,100
Personal: $1,780
Transportation: $1,500
Loan Fees: $70
Total: $30,440
Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
FWIW I was comparing two state universities in VA. Albeit different programs.

I've got to play this game in 3 years or so and it's sickening to see the nickel and diming.

Tuition figures mean squat without the mandatory fees. It reminds me of car dealer pricing.

11,750 On sale price
2,350 for mandatory paint protectant and lifetime dealer warranty on power train(non-transferable)
2,000 Market adjustment
1,100 for owners manual
Delivery fee, tax, title, license

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 18605
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am

Katietsu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:29 pm


Insane!

Maybe the end to University boom will bring these institutions back to reality from a tuition standpoint.
Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
I think part of the point of questioning this is that the tuition and fees are only about half the cost outlined. The cost cited by Jack includes everything even shampoo. So even if the tuition and fees were the $10,000 that you refer to as being reasonable, all in costs used to provide financial aid would still be listed as $25,000. The costs that VT actually controls is tuition and fees regardless of the estimate. The student controls spending on food, transportation, etc.
That's partly why it drives me crazy when many opine about the high cost of college. To be sure, there are many universities, both public and private, that are very expensive. But in most situations, the cost of the university itself (i.e. tuition and fees) and closely related items like textbooks is half or less of the costs that people attribute to it. Housing, meals, transportation, etc. frequently match or exceed the cost of tuition, fees, and books. And in many, though certainly not all, situations, these costs are simply unnecessary. I've known countless students who lived with their parents and commuted to a university. This obviously reduces the costs substantially.

I really chafe at the idea that in order to get a college experience and degree that's worth a darn, students must go to a flagship public university in another state or an incredibly expensive private university. That may be best for some, but it's most definitely not required for all nor even the majority.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

stoptothink
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Fri May 15, 2020 12:22 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am
Katietsu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm


Insane as in insanely expensive or insanely cheap. Paying a private engineering college cost for one son and community college for the other, that $30k is somewhere in the lower middle of those 2.
Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
I think part of the point of questioning this is that the tuition and fees are only about half the cost outlined. The cost cited by Jack includes everything even shampoo. So even if the tuition and fees were the $10,000 that you refer to as being reasonable, all in costs used to provide financial aid would still be listed as $25,000. The costs that VT actually controls is tuition and fees regardless of the estimate. The student controls spending on food, transportation, etc.
That's partly why it drives me crazy when many opine about the high cost of college. To be sure, there are many universities, both public and private, that are very expensive. But in most situations, the cost of the university itself (i.e. tuition and fees) and closely related items like textbooks is half or less of the costs that people attribute to it. Housing, meals, transportation, etc. frequently match or exceed the cost of tuition, fees, and books. And in many, though certainly not all, situations, these costs are simply unnecessary. I've known countless students who lived with their parents and commuted to a university. This obviously reduces the costs substantially.

I really chafe at the idea that in order to get a college experience and degree that's worth a darn, students must go to a flagship public university in another state or an incredibly expensive private university. That may be best for some, but it's most definitely not required for all nor even the majority.
In my 11yrs of being a university student, I don't think my actual cost for room & board (and associated living costs) was ever even half the university's estimate. To be perfectly clear, for 2 of those years I was on a full athletic scholarship, but otherwise the "estimates" were total pie-in-the-sky.

Mudpuppy
Posts: 6041
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:26 am
Location: Sunny California

Re: College in fall

Post by Mudpuppy » Fri May 15, 2020 12:37 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:05 am
Mudpuppy wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm
At 60k a year I'd be darn sure its worth not just taking the rigorous 2 years at the local CC then transfer to one of the best schools for her major. There is no way I'd pay 60k to do online versions of Freshman classes. It really sucks for these kids on what they are missing out on. I'd really be concerned about the online experience at 60k school as well. If the school isn't already doing it it's going to be hard for them to start it up now and keep the same caliber of instruction.
That plan assumes the community college can actually take on the additional students and offer sufficient seats/sections for students to remain on track for transferring. During the last economic downturn, the local community colleges were not able to keep up with demand. Classes filled up quickly and students were not always able to get a full load of useful courses (e.g. ones that would transfer). I recall several news articles on these issues, and I would not be surprised if they happen again during this economic downturn.
Good point. I honestly don't think there is a win/win situation here.

What if the social distancing stuff goes on for years and they have to cut enrollments across the board to maintain a healthy environment? Maybe paying and moving forward online is the best idea.
One could apply the principles of avoiding decision paralysis to this decision just as readily to other decisions. This is a situation fraught with uncertainty going forward, so rather than do nothing (decision paralysis), choose to do something and come to terms with the fact it might not be the optimal decision when you look back on it in a decade, but doing something is likely better than doing nothing.

oldfatguy
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by oldfatguy » Fri May 15, 2020 12:45 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:43 am

I've got to play this game in 3 years or so and it's sickening to see the nickel and diming.

Tuition figures mean squat without the mandatory fees. It reminds me of car dealer pricing.
It's not nickel and diming ... it's itemization. About half the items in the list of "cost of attendance" are personal consumption items that can vary widely from one student to another. Colleges are required to provide these estimates for financial aid and tax purposes. Tuition and fees are separate charges, because they cover different costs and are usually designated funds that can't be mingled together.

wfrobinette
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:14 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 12:45 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am
Katietsu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am


Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
I think part of the point of questioning this is that the tuition and fees are only about half the cost outlined. The cost cited by Jack includes everything even shampoo. So even if the tuition and fees were the $10,000 that you refer to as being reasonable, all in costs used to provide financial aid would still be listed as $25,000. The costs that VT actually controls is tuition and fees regardless of the estimate. The student controls spending on food, transportation, etc.
That's partly why it drives me crazy when many opine about the high cost of college. To be sure, there are many universities, both public and private, that are very expensive. But in most situations, the cost of the university itself (i.e. tuition and fees) and closely related items like textbooks is half or less of the costs that people attribute to it. Housing, meals, transportation, etc. frequently match or exceed the cost of tuition, fees, and books. And in many, though certainly not all, situations, these costs are simply unnecessary. I've known countless students who lived with their parents and commuted to a university. This obviously reduces the costs substantially.

I really chafe at the idea that in order to get a college experience and degree that's worth a darn, students must go to a flagship public university in another state or an incredibly expensive private university. That may be best for some, but it's most definitely not required for all nor even the majority.
In my 11yrs of being a university student, I don't think my actual cost for room & board (and associated living costs) was ever even half the university's estimate. To be perfectly clear, for 2 of those years I was on a full athletic scholarship, but otherwise the "estimates" were total pie-in-the-sky.
I assume what was quoted above is actual cost based on dorm and meal plan. Once you get out of the dorms then yes it can go lower.

oldfatguy
Posts: 587
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfatguy » Fri May 15, 2020 12:47 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am


That's partly why it drives me crazy when many opine about the high cost of college. To be sure, there are many universities, both public and private, that are very expensive. But in most situations, the cost of the university itself (i.e. tuition and fees) and closely related items like textbooks is half or less of the costs that people attribute to it. Housing, meals, transportation, etc. frequently match or exceed the cost of tuition, fees, and books. And in many, though certainly not all, situations, these costs are simply unnecessary. I've known countless students who lived with their parents and commuted to a university. This obviously reduces the costs substantially.

I really chafe at the idea that in order to get a college experience and degree that's worth a darn, students must go to a flagship public university in another state or an incredibly expensive private university. That may be best for some, but it's most definitely not required for all nor even the majority.
+ 1

This post should be pinned to the top of every thread about college.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 18605
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Fri May 15, 2020 1:01 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am
Katietsu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
stoptothink wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:15 am
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:54 am


Insane as insanely expensive. The cost of 1 year at a state funded school should not be 30 grand for an instate student. It's a racket.

In 2007-2008 I got a MS degree from UVA at an offsite location every other Saturday in Reston, VA with Breakfast and Lunch provided, All books, 2 weeks on the grounds at Darden all meals plus nice dining at night, a room at the Marriott courtyard, another 1 week on the grounds all in 37k.

Broke-even less than 2 years after the day I started. 2 promotions. 1 was 2 weeks after I started because I nailed the panel interview after using the bulk of what I learned in the 1st class which was mainly orientation and an article or two of reading.
This is an endless pointless debate, reality is the costs vary DRAMATICALLY across the country. While the average cost of tuition for state schools in the country is still <$10k/yr (and my two local options are ~$6700), there are absolutely areas where $30k+ is the option. Jack is in one of those areas.

While our local state U is <$7k/yr for tuition+fees, a private 25 miles up the road (that is lower ranked in most programs) is ~$37k (average after aid, according to their site, is ~$22k/y) and I know countless people who chose the private over the state U. In some areas there truly are not more cost-effective options, but in others some are willing to pay 3x+ as much for what may be a lower-ranked school because they perceive the "experience" may be better. To each their own, I can think of better ways to spend the 6-figure difference.
I think part of the point of questioning this is that the tuition and fees are only about half the cost outlined. The cost cited by Jack includes everything even shampoo. So even if the tuition and fees were the $10,000 that you refer to as being reasonable, all in costs used to provide financial aid would still be listed as $25,000. The costs that VT actually controls is tuition and fees regardless of the estimate. The student controls spending on food, transportation, etc.
That's partly why it drives me crazy when many opine about the high cost of college. To be sure, there are many universities, both public and private, that are very expensive. But in most situations, the cost of the university itself (i.e. tuition and fees) and closely related items like textbooks is half or less of the costs that people attribute to it. Housing, meals, transportation, etc. frequently match or exceed the cost of tuition, fees, and books. And in many, though certainly not all, situations, these costs are simply unnecessary. I've known countless students who lived with their parents and commuted to a university. This obviously reduces the costs substantially.

I really chafe at the idea that in order to get a college experience and degree that's worth a darn, students must go to a flagship public university in another state or an incredibly expensive private university. That may be best for some, but it's most definitely not required for all nor even the majority.
In my 11yrs of being a university student, I don't think my actual cost for room & board (and associated living costs) was ever even half the university's estimate. To be perfectly clear, for 2 of those years I was on a full athletic scholarship, but otherwise the "estimates" were total pie-in-the-sky.
Our experience was very similar. My wife and I attended a university for a combined 13 years and didn't find it to be exorbitantly expensive at all. We left with about $30k of student debt and made several multiples of that the first year after graduation. A big portion of that was that the tuition waivers I received via assistantships as a graduate student, but I also worked hard for those waivers, and we lived on very small stipends for years. We're now reaping the benefits though.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

wfrobinette
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:14 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by wfrobinette » Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm

oldfatguy wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:45 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:43 am

I've got to play this game in 3 years or so and it's sickening to see the nickel and diming.

Tuition figures mean squat without the mandatory fees. It reminds me of car dealer pricing.
It's not nickel and diming ... it's itemization. About half the items in the list of "cost of attendance" are personal consumption items that can vary widely from one student to another. Colleges are required to provide these estimates for financial aid and tax purposes. Tuition and fees are separate charges, because they cover different costs and are usually designated funds that can't be mingled together.
The fees, in my opinion, are nickel and diming.

Student activity fee
Student cultural fee
Athletic fee
Transportation services fee
sports fee
student services fee
health fee
library fee
tech fee
Out of state resident building fee
Special major fees

https://www.bursar.vt.edu/content/dam/b ... 9-2020.pdf

Plus the room and board are numbers for meal plan and dorm rooms. Unless you're living alone and going the greek route for social activities a dorm and likely a meal plan are a necessity. Books aren't really optional either since they've gone digital. Most homework is baked right into the online experience and one can't buy the digital piece used either. The only thing in that list that isn't truly optional is transportation and personal expenditures.

Cooper62
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:38 am

Re: College in fall

Post by Cooper62 » Fri May 15, 2020 1:30 pm

Daughter just finished her sophomore year today. Engineering major at public state flagship. Online learning has not gone well for her as an engineering major with several hands on lab classes and professors where English is not their first language. I know this happened suddenly for the professors and told her to try to be understanding that many were dealing with their own kids at home but some of the instruction was really lacking. She showed me illegible, hand written notes from one prof that she had to self-teach from. Grades went from A's to C's despite working very hard from home. When she was on campus she was able to take advantage of study sessions held by TAs in the evening, went to office hours and got a tutor if needed. If she was in class and didn't understand she'd stop them immediately and get clarification. Many teachers went to recording their lesson or sending notes so she couldn't get the real-time feedback. She has a sizable scholarship which requires a 3.0 to keep. The university went to a pass fail system so she was able to take the pass option for those classes where grades dropped to keep the scholarship. She said she is taking a semester off if online learning continues in the fall. She feels she is not learning much, is frustrated often and worries she'll get Cs and lose her aid.

oldfatguy
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: College in fall

Post by oldfatguy » Fri May 15, 2020 1:35 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm

The fees, in my opinion, are nickel and diming.
So which costs of attendance should be lower, and why?

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm

In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:09 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
That's unfortunately true of many majors. While a degree in 16th century French poetry, for instance, might be interesting to someone, it's unlikely to result in great career options.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

manatee2005
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Re: College in fall

Post by manatee2005 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:12 pm

wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm
........ likely a meal plan are a necessity.
As I explained to DW time after time, a meal plan is simply pre-paying at exorbinant cost with no refunds. My son had no meal plan for several years while in the dorms. The difference for him? He'd meet his friends and go in for breakfast. They'd all get a bagel and a coffee. He'd pay $3. They'd swipe their meal card and there goes $13.50. The food places do not physically disappear when one isn't on the meal plan.
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oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Fri May 15, 2020 3:15 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:09 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
That's unfortunately true of many majors. While a degree in 16th century French poetry, for instance, might be interesting to someone, it's unlikely to result in great career options.
My major was in engineering.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:15 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:09 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
That's unfortunately true of many majors. While a degree in 16th century French poetry, for instance, might be interesting to someone, it's unlikely to result in great career options.
My major was in engineering.
Interesting. Most engineering programs are notoriously rigorous. Did you have poor instructors?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm

manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: College in fall

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri May 15, 2020 7:52 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
I’m really glad my smart kids aren’t doing the jobs they could have done straight out of high school.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

go_mets
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Re: College in fall

Post by go_mets » Fri May 15, 2020 7:58 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
Define a lot.

Offhand, I can think of several fields that I where I would not want someone straight out of high school.

1. physician, nurse, pharmacist, pretty much anyone in health field
2. accountant
3. engineer

If you mean clerical which is considered pink collar because of low wages, I suppose someone straight out of high school would work.
.

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Fri May 15, 2020 8:01 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:52 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
I’m really glad my smart kids aren’t doing the jobs they could have done straight out of high school.
There are several jobs on my staff (some even filled by people with advanced degrees) that I am pretty certain I could have done adequately straight out of high school, but all of them are pretty dead-end positions that offer little to no growth.

I am really shocked to read that statement come from an engineer.

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Fri May 15, 2020 8:14 pm

go_mets wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:58 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
Define a lot.

Offhand, I can think of several fields that I where I would not want someone straight out of high school.

1. physician, nurse, pharmacist, pretty much anyone in health field
2. accountant
3. engineer

If you mean clerical which is considered pink collar because of low wages, I suppose someone straight out of high school would work.
.
These days, the term pink collar is border-line sexist. The majority of college grads do not work in the three areas you mention. Even engineering is more mixed. There are plenty of SV companies founded by college drop-outs. Pharmacy is an example of credential creep and defensive medicine. You put pills in a bottle or supervise other people putting pills in a bottle.

SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Fri May 15, 2020 9:52 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:12 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm
........ likely a meal plan are a necessity.
As I explained to DW time after time, a meal plan is simply pre-paying at exorbinant cost with no refunds. My son had no meal plan for several years while in the dorms. The difference for him? He'd meet his friends and go in for breakfast. They'd all get a bagel and a coffee. He'd pay $3. They'd swipe their meal card and there goes $13.50. The food places do not physically disappear when one isn't on the meal plan.
The meal plan was not optional for freshman at both of my kids colleges. I recommend going with the lowest cost meal plan available in these cases...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:43 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:14 pm
Pharmacy is an example of credential creep and defensive medicine. You put pills in a bottle or supervise other people putting pills in a bottle.
In retail pharmacies, that's mainly true. But in hospital pharmacies, that's not even remotely true. My father is a recently retired pharmacist, and he says that retail is known colloquially as 'fill 'em and flush 'em'. He always preferred hospitals, where his training could actually be put to good use. They have to compound an incredible array of medications for patients.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

go_mets
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Re: College in fall

Post by go_mets » Sat May 16, 2020 8:39 pm

oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:14 pm
go_mets wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:58 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm
manatee2005 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:11 pm
oldfort wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:04 pm
In my 6 years in college, the only thing I got out of the experience which mattered was the sheepskin saying I had a BS. I could check the HR box as having a college degree.
You wasted your 6 years in college then.
In my opinion, there's no reason we couldn't hire smart 18-year-olds to do a lot of white collar jobs straight out of high school. Most training happens on the job anyway. However, this isn't the system we have, and you need the sheepskin to get to the interview stage.
Define a lot.

Offhand, I can think of several fields that I where I would not want someone straight out of high school.

1. physician, nurse, pharmacist, pretty much anyone in health field
2. accountant
3. engineer

If you mean clerical which is considered pink collar because of low wages, I suppose someone straight out of high school would work.
.
These days, the term pink collar is border-line sexist. The majority of college grads do not work in the three areas you mention. Even engineering is more mixed. There are plenty of SV companies founded by college drop-outs. Pharmacy is an example of credential creep and defensive medicine. You put pills in a bottle or supervise other people putting pills in a bottle.

Sorry. I don't trust someone straight out of high school to do much of anything.
According to the statistics, USA schools rank poorly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-n ... ional-exam


.

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Sat May 16, 2020 8:52 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:52 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 3:12 pm
wfrobinette wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 1:22 pm
........ likely a meal plan are a necessity.
As I explained to DW time after time, a meal plan is simply pre-paying at exorbinant cost with no refunds. My son had no meal plan for several years while in the dorms. The difference for him? He'd meet his friends and go in for breakfast. They'd all get a bagel and a coffee. He'd pay $3. They'd swipe their meal card and there goes $13.50. The food places do not physically disappear when one isn't on the meal plan.
The meal plan was not optional for freshman at both of my kids colleges. I recommend going with the lowest cost meal plan available in these cases...
It's not optional at any of the schools DS was accepted to either. If you live in a dorm you are required to have a meal plan. The only way to get out of it is to live in one of the apartment buildings with kitchens on campus (which are more expensive and mostly occupied by upperclassmen). We're trying to decide what to go with because the price difference between the lowest allowed plan and the unlimited swipes plan is only $200/semester. A drop in the bucket of total expenses and teen boys can eat.

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Sat May 16, 2020 8:55 pm

go_mets wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:39 pm
Sorry. I don't trust someone straight out of high school to do much of anything.
According to the statistics, USA schools rank poorly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-n ... ional-exam.
When I graduated high school, I had a five on the AP calculus exam. If you think the majority of people need to understand Lagrange multiples to do their jobs, we have very different perceptions on what skills are useful in the real world.

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willthrill81
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat May 16, 2020 10:03 pm

go_mets wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:39 pm
Sorry. I don't trust someone straight out of high school to do much of anything.
According to the statistics, USA schools rank poorly.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-n ... ional-exam
Apparently, a large number of organizations in both the private and public sectors agree with you.

Like it or not, in many fields, you need a college degree to get a job where a high school diploma would have been adequate 50 years ago. And in many fields where you once needed a bachelor's degree, you now need a master's. People can opine about it, but that's the reality of the situation.

The current recession will, I suspect, lead to stronger college enrollments than we would have seen otherwise over the course of the next several years. There will likely be a dip this fall, but I fully expect the numbers to rebound significantly in 2021 and 2022. When great employment prospects aren't found at every corner, higher ed looks more attractive.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:03 pm
Apparently, a large number of organizations in both the private and public sectors agree with you.

Like it or not, in many fields, you need a college degree to get a job where a high school diploma would have been adequate 50 years ago. And in many fields where you once needed a bachelor's degree, you now need a master's. People can opine about it, but that's the reality of the situation.
I mostly agree with this, although my Masters made zero difference to my career. This might be a good reason to think very carefully at the economic ROI for college, and focus less on factors like college fit and experience.

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