College in fall

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Vulcan
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Re: College in fall

Post by Vulcan » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:07 pm

Normchad wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:08 pm
I'm in a similar, but slightly different boat.

My daughter is graduating from undergrad now. She is at home, finishing up everything on-line; and I think it stinks. She will not have commencement etc.

She has fully funded offers to start PhD programs in the fall, and also have good job offers. And she is trying to figure out what to do. If she goes the PhD route, and that starts out online, I think that is a complete waste of her time. On the other hand, if she commits to the jobs, who knows if they will still actually be there when she is supposed to start.

For undergrad, honestly, I would commit to the school and give them as little money as humanly possible. If everything in the fall in on-line, I would bail out of it somehow. I think a lot of the benefit of going to school, is going to school. It's being instructed face-to-face by professors. It's living with other people. It's living on your own. If you;'re not getting that, I wouldn't pay full freight. No way.
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GoldenFinch
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Re: College in fall

Post by GoldenFinch » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:14 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:12 pm
NJdad6 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:44 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:17 pm
NJdad6 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:11 pm
Prahasaurus wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:12 pm


This crisis will completely transform US universities. Prices are obscene. US universities will look completely different in 3-4 years. And prices will drop significantly.
Disagree. There will be little to no long term impact or changes.
That doesn't seem to be the opinion of my countless colleagues who teach. I was expecting to go back and teach at local U this fall (I gave it up 1.5yrs ago after doing it for 4yrs), but now I'm not sure the new program that I was slated to teach in is even going to happen.
Not sure how that is related to the comments above. Of course there is short term impact and colleges are cutting back on costs including employees. In a year or 2 it will return to normal and prices will not drop.
I was just mentioning the short-term because it directly impacts me; at least this fall and possibly long-term (I can't say whether the program I was supposed to teach in ever opens now). Most of my colleagues in academia expect long-term changes, at the very least increased emphasis on remote learning.
Based on what I’m seeing, I wonder if a push to remote learning is going to result in fewer degrees being granted. It really doesn’t work as well for some students.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:44 am

In the long term, students will be taught by AI bots that can pass the Turing test and make most universities obsolete, if focusing solely on instruction. Socialization and independence is important as well, but there are cheaper ways to get that.

I complained to VT and they changed their policy on students taking credits on a gap year from 11 to 30, but they didn’t change the deadline for making a formal decision on electing a gap year, which is May 1.

I told them:

My daughter won’t be requesting deferral. The deadline to request it is too soon to make an informed judgement about the residual risk after current social distancing mitigation actions.

If VT doesn’t have a widespread testing program in place by this fall, then this could go very badly. I hope for everyone’s sake they do.

Valuethinker
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Re: College in fall

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:08 am

Gray wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:29 pm
I am deeply, deeply conflicted over this matter. In my case, my daughter has been admitted to the Virginia Tech College of Engineering. The university is currently teaching via Zoom (which is crap for undergrad instruction, tutoring, and collaboration). I have Zoom and WebEx accounts. I’m familiar with them. I can only imagine what will happen in all the weed out courses.

I believe the probability of COVID-19 infection reoccurring in the fall/winter is high. We have no immunity to it, and everyone who has been hunkering down is a sitting duck. It could continue spreading in July, it might start in October/November, or it may not continue. Given how contagious this thing is, my money is on re-emergence.

In light of this situation, I would prefer to have her stay home and take classes at NOVA NVCC. They’re not great, but they don’t cost much, and she can continue her learning. She’s going into computer science, so continuing to learn Java and Python would be a good investment, along with higher level calculus.

BUT.......... look at the exchange below

I have written to the University’s president. I may play the medical card and ask for an accommodation since my wife has two conditions that suppress her immune system. I don’t know.

Ideas?

On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:22 AM, admissions <admissions@vt.edu> wrote:

12 credit hours total; it doesn’t matter when they are taken.

Office of Undergraduate Admissions
Virginia Tech
925 Prices Fork Road
Blacksburg, VA 24061
540/231-6267
540/231-3242 (fax)
admissions@vt.edu
https://vt.edu/admissions/undergraduate/

From: Me

I do, thank you.

Is that 12 credit hours over the course of the full year, or 12 credit hours over each semester?


On Mar 23, 2020, at 7:42 AM, admissions <admissions@vt.edu> wrote:

Any and all coursework taken must be reported, and any student who takes 12 college credits must apply as a transfer student. Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Office of Undergraduate Admissions
Virginia Tech
925 Prices Fork Road
Blacksburg, VA 24061
540/231-6267
540/231-3242 (fax)
admissions@vt.edu
https://vt.edu/admissions/undergraduate/

From: Me

If my daughter takes courses while not enrolled in any AA degree program, and does not request to transfer any course credits to VT, why would she have to apply as a transfer student?

Key distinction, “attending college elsewhere” (enrolled in a degree program) vs “taking college courses for personal enrichment without any intention of transferring them to VT”.

Please advise. Thank you


On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:12 PM, admissions <admissions@vt.edu> wrote:


Thank you for your email!

We will entertain requests for deferral per normal office policies and procedures. The student needs to emailappchange@vt.edu before the May 1 deadline with the request and reason. That request will be reviewed by the Director and either granted or denied.

Please be aware, however, that policy states that students who request a deferred enrollment date are not allowed to attend college elsewhere during the deferment period. If your daughter plans to take classes in fall 2020/spring 2021, she will have to reapply as a transfer student and will not be considered for deferment. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Office of Undergraduate Admissions
Virginia Tech
925 Prices Fork Road
Blacksburg, VA 24061
540/231-6267
540/231-3242 (fax)
admissions@vt.edu
https://vt.edu/admissions/undergraduate/

From: Me

Dear Admissions Officers,

I hope you and your families are all well.

In light of the Corona Virus pandemic, which is expected to remain an epidemic in the U.S. until late Spring 2020 when vaccinations hopefully become widely available, is Virginia Tech providing students already accepted, and who have paid their matriculation fee, the option to defer their admission until Fall 2021?

If so, what is the time frame (from when to when) and the process for submitting such a request? Is deferred admission guaranteed and formally documented?

If available, this would permit my child to take online classes at NOVA NVCC (enrolling in math, science, and computer science courses) for one year. *If* this option were available, and *if* my child chose to exercise it, she has indicated that she still wants to take ALL of the freshman General Engineering courses at Virginia Tech starting in the Fall of 2021, attend for four years, and pursue graduate school. She is totally committed to attending Virginia Tech.

Thank you very much for any information you can provide.

Kind Regards,

Me
1. your daughter has secured entry into a competitive programme that she wishes to attend

2. she needs the social interaction of university to function. She is not a study in the basement type.

(I think she wants to think carefully about what career she wants. There are many jobs in the field of computing which are more socially orientated - such as client support, sales support etc. Sitting in an open plan office with your headphones on, writing code? That doesn't sound like her. She might struggle with her classmates who will tend towards the anti-social. In my day women were 30% of computer science majors, it's now down to 10% I gather )

I would defer a year - the place in the right college is too valuable to just throw away.

Finding something for her to do would be difficult, particularly if she is not self motivated to study online. Could she do volunteer work, online, for a not-for-profit? What are her hobbies and interests?

We will get through this. Countries that are making progress have severe lockdowns and mass testing. We (UK & USA) are not there, yet. But we will get through this. If it disrupts your daughter's life for a year, that's not a huge cost in comparison.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:21 pm

Virginia Tech is now offering up to 2 year deferrals. The problem for anyone weighing deferral is that VT’s “plans for the fall academic semester” will be announced in early June, but the deadline for requesting deferral is April 30.

With all the high risk group professors teaching (mostly) low risk group students, any campus outbreak is going to result in a freakout. Every break: Thanksgiving, Holidays, Spring Break, is a new opportunity for newly infected students to come back and cough, sneeze, and touch a door knob. The only way to deal with this risk is to conduct recurring testing of the entire campus, scan for fevers at building entrances, and when infections are detected, introduce active mitigations like masks, social distancing, and online learning. Contact tracing is needed.

I can see a lot of ways that state and university officials can really screw this up by doing too much or too little.

If higher education wasn’t so over-priced, I don’t think this would bother me as much. But I’m spending $30,000 a year for the next 5 years or more. Deferral is a great option if this becomes a cluster—a bad option if it turns out that the Virus didn’t re-emerge and life resumes as before.

We won’t get herd immunity without people getting the virus in sufficient quantities, vaccinations, or both. Right now, we have neither (except for people getting it in NYC and New Orleans). It’s too bad the nation’s testing capability is minimal.



https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2020/04/ ... -0409.html

“Fall semester: Virginia Tech expects to announce plans for the fall academic semester in early June, Sands said. The university will be operating, but it is unclear what that will look like. “As for the fall, I am optimistic that we will be back in business,” Sands said. “Likely campus will be different going forward, but in many ways it can and will be better.”

https://vt.edu/admissions/frequently-as ... id-19.html

"Will the deferral policy change in light of the COVID-19 situation? Undergraduate Admissions is altering this policy to include the possibility of a two-year deferral window, and the opportunity to take college courses during the deferral period (with the provision that performance in those courses may affect your decision)."

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:34 pm

Calhoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 am
Are plans changing for kids going to college next fall? Seems like a lot of money to spend if my daughter is going to wind up taking classes from my basement.
I wouldn't be so dismissive of taking classes in your basement. In 2020, there's no fundamental reason, other than tradition, why 95% of classes couldn't be taught via Zoom or something similar.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:06 am

LOL. 4 Year University Tuition vs pre-developed community college or Kahn Academy content. For most freshmen, the courses are not ground breaking.

I believe the on-campus experience is important for growing up as a person. I don’t think that will occur in someone’s basement.

I’m considering using this as a refresh year and an opportunity to acquire new skills before college.

SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:21 am

oldfort wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:34 pm
Calhoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 am
Are plans changing for kids going to college next fall? Seems like a lot of money to spend if my daughter is going to wind up taking classes from my basement.
I wouldn't be so dismissive of taking classes in your basement. In 2020, there's no fundamental reason, other than tradition, why 95% of classes couldn't be taught via Zoom or something similar.
Online classes doesn't work well for any class that also has a lab component, or hands on aspect. Both of my kids majors are very hands on with most all of the Junior and Senior classes pretty much requiring them to be on campus. They both have also said the quality of what they are getting after switching to online is drastically lower then what they were getting on campus.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:45 am

I have a son starting college this Fall as well, and while at first I was thinking "screw this" he'd be better off deferring than starting his freshman year off online, now I've more resigned myself to going with whatever happens and staying the course. It is by no way ideal, but the end of his high school experience has been pretty crappy too. It is what it is. It's not like they're going to let a large percentage of students defer anyhow.

So, I remain hopeful that it will be on campus, but if not we'll deal.

Arabesque
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Re: College in fall

Post by Arabesque » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:10 am

All of the many studies, which I have read, demonstrate that, even if some well-prepared or advanced students do adequately in online classes, marginally prepared students do not do well. In our current online experiment, many faculty report losing the bottom performers of their class and they say they would not be failing so many students under face-to-face conditions. This is why, this semester, so many universities have gone to a P/No credit option.

I would add that anyone believing in the quality and efficacy of online learning should take an online, three credit college course in an area where they have no expertise. Most people, regardless of their level of education, find it hard to maintain motivation. Years ago I took up this challenge and worked on a well-regarded, asynchronous art history course taught by a stellar professor. I made it through 1/3 of the material. I might have done better with a clear goal, but if looking at art didn't keep me engaged, I don't know what I would have done with Calculus.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/who- ... e-courses/
https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/a ... tcomes.pdf
https://hechingerreport.org/five-studie ... -help.html
https://www.upenn.edu/learninganalytics ... aper41.pdf

oldfort
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Re: College in fall

Post by oldfort » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:19 pm

Arabesque wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:10 am
All of the many studies, which I have read, demonstrate that, even if some well-prepared or advanced students do adequately in online classes, marginally prepared students do not do well. In our current online experiment, many faculty report losing the bottom performers of their class and they say they would not be failing so many students under face-to-face conditions. This is why, this semester, so many universities have gone to a P/No credit option.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/who- ... e-courses/
https://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/media/k2/a ... tcomes.pdf
https://hechingerreport.org/five-studie ... -help.html
https://www.upenn.edu/learninganalytics ... aper41.pdf
One of those studies, cited by Brookings, was based on a large for-profit college. The Columbia paper was based on community college systems. Both for-profit and community colleges tend to enroll students who are less prepared for college.

Arabesque
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Re: College in fall

Post by Arabesque » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:50 pm

The point is that online education works adequately for motivated and advanced students. Getting an MBA online may work. Getting an AA not so good.

This is on the difficulty students are currently having https://www.insidehighered.com/news/202 ... oronavirus

SimonJester
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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:00 pm

I would suggest for those with Fall 2020 freshman students; If their college is still going to be online only come fall, and if their college allows transfer credits from community college, take the basic courses online at the community college level. You will save a ton of money and probably end up with the same education.

Our state community colleges have been doing online classes for decades. Our state also requires that certain credits must transfer to all in state 4 year colleges.

I would suggest this over taking a year off...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Arabesque
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Re: College in fall

Post by Arabesque » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 am

Here is a recent survey to read as you consider what to do in the fall, whether your child is a high school senior or a college student. My daughter will be a sophomore in a hands-on major (labs), and although it is too early to decide, I am weighing the value of the classes if there is not a robust learning experience.

This is a summary of the longer report below it.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissio ... enrollment

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4254080/ ... vey%20.pdf

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HomerJ
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Re: College in fall

Post by HomerJ » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:15 am

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:20 am
Calhoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 am
My daughter is graduating from high school this June and is planning on starting college this coming fall a state over.

I know that our state universities have sent students home where they're taking classes remotely online.

Sounds like the best guess at this point is that the virus may or may not wane in the summer months but will most likely rebound in the normal flu season.

Are plans changing for kids going to college next fall? Seems like a lot of money to spend if my daughter is going to wind up taking classes from my basement.
When I began college in the early 1980s the youth unemployment rate (under 25s) was the highest ever recorded. Even higher than the 2008 9 recession I believe. The final pop of the Baby Boom hitting the market at once coupled w 21% interest rates.

So I had no alternative. It was very hard getting even a summer job. Friends of mine who did have jobs like washing library shelves or mowing grass did so because their fathers were school principals etc.

This Fall is likely to be as bad. Every job will be fiercely competed for by the unemployed whose extended benefits will have run out.

So that's point 1. What reasonable alternatives does she have? If it is relevant work or skills developing work (leadership, emotional intelligence etc) then fine. Working for a year before college is no bad thing. Working at any job will teach them something but a junky job is probably not worth it.

Point 2. Many of my friends parents had attended university alongside returning veterans. Classes were doubled or tripled up. Labs done in shifts 8 to 4, 4 to midnight. Etc. This was not optimal.

We take the cards we are dealt. If your daughter can function academically in an online setting then great. If not she should not attend university this year.

A warning which I think you know. This crisis is very unlikely to be over before 2021. If then.
The reasonable alternative is online classes at the local community college instead of spending $20,000-$30,000 on online classes at the expensive school.

My son will be a freshman in college next fall as well, and if they say no one can actually take classes on site or live in the dorms, we will be looking at community college classes that we can transfer the following year or for winter semester.
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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:36 am

What is his school’s policy on deferral of enrollment, will he lose his offer of admission? Do you have a deadline?

In my daughter’s case, we won’t know about their plans until early June, but the deferral request is due by April 30.

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:40 am

From what I can gather our school does not allow you to enroll in another college while on a gap year, so in order to attend a CC DS would have to withdraw and apply as a transfer student next year. He has almost 75% of his cost covered by grants and scholarships at the 4 year school, so if he attended online from home it could potentially be almost free if the cost of room and board were subtracted, but that's assuming financial aid didn't change. That's the big unknown for us.

If he attended a CC his outside scholarships that are only for 2020-21 school year would probably be forfeited because the Pell grant would cover 100% of his cost at the CC.

Still seems like we're better off just sticking with the 4 year school this Fall no matter what.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am

I think we decided last night to defer. Social distancing and the prospect of online learning will ruin a freshman experience. With a vaccine (70 in development) along with rapid tests, next year will be back to normal. We’ll probably see more integrated eLearning in classes going forward, but I think my daughter needs face time with students and professors.

Based on what I’m seeing with distance learning, it’s spirit crushing, boring, and isolating. Only the advanced and highly motivated students do well. The quality and depth of instruction is much worse.

rob65
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Re: College in fall

Post by rob65 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:24 am

Gray wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am
I think we decided last night to defer. Social distancing and the prospect of online learning will ruin a freshman experience. With a vaccine (70 in development) along with rapid tests, next year will be back to normal. We’ll probably see more integrated eLearning in classes going forward, but I think my daughter needs face time with students and professors.

Based on what I’m seeing with distance learning, it’s spirit crushing, boring, and isolating. Only the advanced and highly motivated students do well. The quality and depth of instruction is much worse.
I would just add that it’s fairly common in Europe for students to take a gap year. Once things return to normal it would be a good chance to get some volunteer or work experience.

There are also lots of non-credit online courses that she could take.

I teach math at a two-year school, and I would offer one piece of advice. Don’t go a full year without doing any math. Either do some non-credit online work or consider an online math course from your local community college.

cshell2
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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:33 am

I just wonder if all these plans to defer are going to be honored? I'm already hearing of schools planning on opening up the flood gates on their wait lists to fill spots due to the potential of losing lots of international students. And what happens to the class of 21 if there's a huge population of deferred students at selective schools taking up the spots? It just doesn't seem fair to them.

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willardx
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Re: College in fall

Post by willardx » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:06 pm

Arabesque wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 am
Here is a recent survey to read as you consider what to do in the fall, whether your child is a high school senior or a college student. My daughter will be a sophomore in a hands-on major (labs), and although it is too early to decide, I am weighing the value of the classes if there is not a robust learning experience.

This is a summary of the longer report below it.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissio ... enrollment

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4254080/ ... vey%20.pdf
This was helpful, thank you. I have a high school senior and we have decided to commit and start paying deposits, but if the situation worsens, we won't worry about losing deposits. I read this morning that USC offered admission to 2,000 more freshman applicants, and I'm hearing anecdotally of other colleges offering admission to students who probably wouldn't get in otherwise. I'm not sure what that means long-term, and whether colleges will turn out less-prepared students, and how employers will view this.

Arabesque
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Re: College in fall

Post by Arabesque » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:50 pm

_Inside Higher Education_ is a reasonable open source for college matters. Here’s an article on enrollment/yield rates.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissio ... s-are-flux

psteinx
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Re: College in fall

Post by psteinx » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm

Current kids (3): HS Freshman, College 1st and 2nd years.

Generally negative feedback from the kids on the online learning. In particular, the oldest, at a prestigious university, has been saying that if college is still online in the fall, she wants to take a semester or more off. I've discouraged this view, but it's there.

Prospective freshman in a tricky bind. Hard to predict, today, what the fall will look like. If accept and start college, and it's still on-line, initial social bonding, as well as education, will be disrupted. But other options not great either. Also, quite possible that a wave of kids defers and enters in fall 2021 instead, causing distortions then.

If I had a HS senior now, admitted to a good college they liked, I'd counsel going ahead and accepting the spot and making plans to attend (including paying deposit, etc.). It's possible that things will go haywire over the summer, but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. That said, our finances are not stretched like some are, so even, say, eating a modest deposit if plans were changed wouldn't be too bad.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:13 am

rob65 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:24 am
Gray wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:11 am
I think we decided last night to defer. Social distancing and the prospect of online learning will ruin a freshman experience. With a vaccine (70 in development) along with rapid tests, next year will be back to normal. We’ll probably see more integrated eLearning in classes going forward, but I think my daughter needs face time with students and professors.

Based on what I’m seeing with distance learning, it’s spirit crushing, boring, and isolating. Only the advanced and highly motivated students do well. The quality and depth of instruction is much worse.
I would just add that it’s fairly common in Europe for students to take a gap year. Once things return to normal it would be a good chance to get some volunteer or work experience.

There are also lots of non-credit online courses that she could take.

I teach math at a two-year school, and I would offer one piece of advice. Don’t go a full year without doing any math. Either do some non-credit online work or consider an online math course from your local community college.
I’ve made the point that if she does this, she needs to view it as a “skilling up” opportunity. She was already going to take Computer Science 201 and 202 this summer. In the fall, we’ll add Java 1 and 2 as well (she’s had two Java classes)—CSC 200 and AP Comp Sci. Other courses: chem, writing, Python.

She’ll get to take two or more Calculus classes. She took AP BC Calc in her Junior year, and since she didn’t feel like she was strong enough in it (she got a B), they let her retake it in her Senior year—and she’s got a strong A.

If the classes are online, then they are. They’re inexpensive. Not many students get to prepare like this. VT raised the credits that can be earned during deferral to 30, so this won’t negatively impact her unless she does poorly in them.

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:49 am

psteinx wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:03 pm
Current kids (3): HS Freshman, College 1st and 2nd years.

Generally negative feedback from the kids on the online learning. In particular, the oldest, at a prestigious university, has been saying that if college is still online in the fall, she wants to take a semester or more off. I've discouraged this view, but it's there.

Prospective freshman in a tricky bind. Hard to predict, today, what the fall will look like. If accept and start college, and it's still on-line, initial social bonding, as well as education, will be disrupted. But other options not great either. Also, quite possible that a wave of kids defers and enters in fall 2021 instead, causing distortions then.

If I had a HS senior now, admitted to a good college they liked, I'd counsel going ahead and accepting the spot and making plans to attend (including paying deposit, etc.). It's possible that things will go haywire over the summer, but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches. That said, our finances are not stretched like some are, so even, say, eating a modest deposit if plans were changed wouldn't be too bad.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... -shutdowns

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.market ... 606EABF547

This is the scenario I’m afraid of. For rising freshmen, it could set them back both developmentally and socially (with distancing).

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... ultClick=1

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Zh ... ion_detail

A vast testing capability would help. I’m betting organizations will institute distance learning or work-at-home on a dime.

Places where people exhale a lot, whether gyms/cardio or choirs are high risk in this environment.

I used to have the view of “power through” because you’re in a low risk group, but then I began to consider the impact on the broader educational experience—the reason why we send them to campus vs sending them to the basement with a laptop.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Nyakendu » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:54 am

Another spanner into what our college kids could be doing in the fall, is the possibility that the new academic year may not begin until spring 2021 :https://www.insidehighered.com/news/202 ... -fall-term
My rising freshman is leaning more and more towards taking a gap year..

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Gray
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Re: College in fall

Post by Gray » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:57 pm

I decided to roll the dice on fall admission, but she is taking four online classes this summer: two in each of two six-week sessions: comp sci I and II, cloud computing/networking, and English composition.

If nothing else, because these are not for transfer, it will better train her for online learning.

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Re: College in fall

Post by FoolStreet » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:35 pm

Prahasaurus wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:12 pm
New Providence wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:37 am
College is tremendously overpriced even if the classes are in person and not on-line.
This crisis will completely transform US universities. Prices are obscene. US universities will look completely different in 3-4 years. And prices will drop significantly.
I worry quite the opposite. People will always want the college experience if / when it is available. In the short-term, demand will drop, but then it could double in 2-3 years and have higher costs with lower density. You may see deferrals or community colleges, but at some point those students will want to enroll. Similarly, in order to accept students back in Fall, there will have to be lower density classrooms, dining halls, indoor stadiums, etc. Lower density will cause higher costs. With limited college resources available and more demand, parents will pay, right?

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Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:44 pm

Our DD has just declined several funded PhD offers for the fall. It isn't 100% due to this uncertainty, but it did play a significant role in her decision making process.

It sounds like many schools really had disruptions in the grad school acceptance processes due to the virus as well. Anecdotally, it sounds like some schools instituted a hiring freeze; which meant they made no offers. Some other schools, it seems, didn't get their offers out in time.

It's a crummy situation all around for everybody. It may be the case that your freshman children next year will have TAs that have never been on campus, have never met the professor, haven't been properly taught how to be a TA, etc.

Best of luck to everybody. We will get through this eventually.....

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Re: College in fall

Post by RadAudit » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:06 pm

I'm sure no BHer's DS or DD would be directly impacted; but, it may be that financial pressures caused by the virus fallout may result in some changes in college offerings. Or so says a GMU prof.
https://www.dailypress.com/opinion/vp-e ... story.html

PS: My DS went to GMU and DD went to VT.
Last edited by RadAudit on Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: College in fall

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:20 pm

Calhoon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:55 am
My daughter is graduating from high school this June and is planning on starting college this coming fall a state over.

I know that our state universities have sent students home where they're taking classes remotely online.

Sounds like the best guess at this point is that the virus may or may not wane in the summer months but will most likely rebound in the normal flu season.

Are plans changing for kids going to college next fall? Seems like a lot of money to spend if my daughter is going to wind up taking classes from my basement.
I'm a professor, and the official word we just received this last week regarding fall classes being held online was 'maybe'.

Primary educators in our area are being told to be prepared to not resume instruction until the new year.

Nobody knows, but I certainly wouldn't count on regular college classes resuming in the fall.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:41 pm

I know both of my college kids have said they will take a semester / year off if their colleges only do online in the fall. Both have said the value of the online learning is so subpar to what they were getting they dont feel its worth continue with online classes.

My youngest said in one class they have not had a homework assignment since mid February, every one is just goofing off in Zoom. He has decided to just read the text book cover to cover and study on his own.

Im worried however just taking a single semester off might be problematic. Many classes are setup where the once course is only offered in the fall and you cannot progress to the next course offer in the Spring semester without the fall class.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Rainier
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Re: College in fall

Post by Rainier » Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:50 pm

For those deferring college in the fall what will the students do? Traditionally you'd go travel the world, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:41 pm

Rainier wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:50 pm
For those deferring college in the fall what will the students do? Traditionally you'd go travel the world, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
"Traditionally you'd travel the world"? Only on Bogleheads...Don't most young adults look for jobs? I can understand that remote classes may not be perceived as effective (I'm a scientist who spent more than a decade in university labs), but for incoming freshman at least, wouldn't it be worth it just to stay the course and knock out some GEs that likely are of little relevance to your field of study anyway? Seriously, what good is going to come from just skipping a semester and doing nothing productive?

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Re: College in fall

Post by Katietsu » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:08 pm

I agree that many students and faculty are not pleased with the quality of the online offerings. However, I believe that a large part of this is due to the sudden switch to online and faculty who had no time to prepare. And, in some cases, very technically challenged faculty. In one degree program at the local flagship state university, students are given the option for in person or online learning for about half the degree requirements. These students are all full time without jobs or kids interfering, in general. About 80% of the students choose online. My point is that online does not need to be inferior, depending on the topic or the student of course. This is why some universities are making plans now to offer classes differently if they can not go back to the old system. So, I would examine the school’s plans before just deciding that instruction will be subject par if all is not back to normal.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:08 pm

I wonder if schools will play hard ball with people that want to defer. I.e. will they allow you to defer and come back next year? Or will they say "we've turned away 10,000 qualified applicants already, we've got bills to pay, if you don't want to be here, we'll just take one of those other 10,000?"

I hope this doesn't happen, but if enough people want to defer, it might. After all, schools do have bills to pay and dorm rooms to rent out. And also, why would the implications be for the following year, if the supply of available spaces was artificially shrunken because a bunch of 2020 deferral were planning to show up.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:13 pm

Back in the dark ages of 1977-1979 I took a few of my classes via TV, the university aired the classes on their UHF channel. I did things a little different, instead of watching the classes on TV I watched them on VCR tapes in the library, 3-4 at a time. As I recall I had to take a mid-term and a final exam.

The TV classes were not in my major at all, just general education requirements, so I didn't much care how I took them, only whether or not they checked a box on my class requirements.

I might not have been happy taking TV or online classes for my major requirements, though. Still, it is a fact that technology has advanced far beyond TV classes. My grandchildren seem to be doing fine with their online classes, good thing as they won't be returning to school until the fall. They have been using Zoom for some classes, other classes are just canned programs. At any rate they are knocking them out each school day. They are all Lake Wobegon students, so they will be fine in getting thru this change in their school lessons delivery methods.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: College in fall

Post by masteraleph » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:09 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:41 pm

"Traditionally you'd travel the world"? Only on Bogleheads...Don't most young adults look for jobs? I can understand that remote classes may not be perceived as effective (I'm a scientist who spent more than a decade in university labs), but for incoming freshman at least, wouldn't it be worth it just to stay the course and knock out some GEs that likely are of little relevance to your field of study anyway? Seriously, what good is going to come from just skipping a semester and doing nothing productive?
That would make sense if the only productive thing is taking classes towards finishing a degree. For plenty of high school grads, living on their own, managing their own expenses, figuring out where to go and what to do, meeting all sorts of different people, etc.- that's what gap years do. The idea is both to experience things or places you haven't before, and be able to adapt to those experiences without also having your grades/future career path/etc. all on the line. Obviously that's different, for example if your kid is attending school while living at home. But there are plenty of universities that would love their students to come in able to function on their own and not having all of those anxiety provoking episodes while also grappling with academic work. Also, that increased independence might increase self-motivation- or perhaps have the student decide that maybe college isn't for them, and not flame out halfway through first semester.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Monsterflockster » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:53 am

Rainier wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:50 pm
For those deferring college in the fall what will the students do? Traditionally you'd go travel the world, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
Enroll in a community college and take online courses for free. Then transfer, have some units in the bank and enjoy their first year of college.

Or get a job and realize that real work in the real world isn’t easy.

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Re: College in fall

Post by cshell2 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:30 am

I highly doubt we'll be deferring if school is online as DS would just spend his days playing video games. :? I'm sure he'd up his hours at work, but that's about it. He couldn't take community college classes without withdrawing from the university and then reapplying as a transfer student which would cause him to lose his incoming freshman scholarship, so won't be doing that either. Depending on what happens to financial aid in the event of no on campus classes, he could end up having 100% of his costs covered if there is no room and board charges, so while it would be disappointing, it's not like we're paying mega bucks for a subpar experience.

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Re: College in fall

Post by rob65 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:31 am

Katietsu wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:08 pm
I agree that many students and faculty are not pleased with the quality of the online offerings. However, I believe that a large part of this is due to the sudden switch to online and faculty who had no time to prepare. And, in some cases, very technically challenged faculty. In one degree program at the local flagship state university, students are given the option for in person or online learning for about half the degree requirements. These students are all full time without jobs or kids interfering, in general. About 80% of the students choose online. My point is that online does not need to be inferior, depending on the topic or the student of course. This is why some universities are making plans now to offer classes differently if they can not go back to the old system. So, I would examine the school’s plans before just deciding that instruction will be subject par if all is not back to normal.
I teach at a two-year branch campus of a large University. We’ve been told to prepare for the possibility that classes might be online in the fall.

The University is offering numerous training opportunities for faculty who had not taught online previously. Faculty have been sort of gently told that everyone understands this semester was an emergency transition with very limited prep time, but that fall courses need to be thought out from the beginning for the possibility of online delivery.

I’ve taught online before during summer terms and the transition for my courses has been relatively smooth, but there are definitely things that I would do differently if I knew in advance the course was going to be fully online.

At any rate, I think you are correct and any online courses delivered in the fall will go more smoothly than the abrupt transition this semester.

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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:52 am

masteraleph wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:09 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:41 pm

"Traditionally you'd travel the world"? Only on Bogleheads...Don't most young adults look for jobs? I can understand that remote classes may not be perceived as effective (I'm a scientist who spent more than a decade in university labs), but for incoming freshman at least, wouldn't it be worth it just to stay the course and knock out some GEs that likely are of little relevance to your field of study anyway? Seriously, what good is going to come from just skipping a semester and doing nothing productive?
That would make sense if the only productive thing is taking classes towards finishing a degree. For plenty of high school grads, living on their own, managing their own expenses, figuring out where to go and what to do, meeting all sorts of different people, etc.- that's what gap years do. The idea is both to experience things or places you haven't before, and be able to adapt to those experiences without also having your grades/future career path/etc. all on the line. Obviously that's different, for example if your kid is attending school while living at home. But there are plenty of universities that would love their students to come in able to function on their own and not having all of those anxiety provoking episodes while also grappling with academic work. Also, that increased independence might increase self-motivation- or perhaps have the student decide that maybe college isn't for them, and not flame out halfway through first semester.
If that semester (or longer) was actually used to get some workforce experience and time out of their parent's home to develop as an adult, I absolutely agree (IMO college is a very poor alternative to the real world in this respect). That being said, I doubt "living on their own, managing their own expenses, figuring out where to go and what to do, meeting all sorts of different people, etc..." is what is going to be happening in the huge majority of these cases. I'd love to know if the parents in this thread are expecting their children to use the semester (or more) off to increase their independence or if it'll be another year of high school (without the school).

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Re: College in fall

Post by SimonJester » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:50 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:52 am
If that semester (or longer) was actually used to get some workforce experience and time out of their parent's home to develop as an adult, I absolutely agree (IMO college is a very poor alternative to the real world in this respect). That being said, I doubt "living on their own, managing their own expenses, figuring out where to go and what to do, meeting all sorts of different people, etc..." is what is going to be happening in the huge majority of these cases. I'd love to know if the parents in this thread are expecting their children to use the semester (or more) off to increase their independence or if it'll be another year of high school (without the school).
I wonder if the number of jobs for high school graduates with little to no real work experience will be few and far between come fall. Remember after 08-09 tons of older adults who were laid off of their jobs took those entry level jobs themselves. I suspect for most it will be a year off playing video games and generally wasting time...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: College in fall

Post by HereToLearn » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:44 pm
Our DD has just declined several funded PhD offers for the fall. It isn't 100% due to this uncertainty, but it did play a significant role in her decision making process.

It sounds like many schools really had disruptions in the grad school acceptance processes due to the virus as well. Anecdotally, it sounds like some schools instituted a hiring freeze; which meant they made no offers. Some other schools, it seems, didn't get their offers out in time.

It's a crummy situation all around for everybody. It may be the case that your freshman children next year will have TAs that have never been on campus, have never met the professor, haven't been properly taught how to be a TA, etc.

Best of luck to everybody. We will get through this eventually.....
Am curious why your DD declined the funded PHD? Is she working presently and does not want to leave her job?

My son is thinking of a PHD, but I fear the funding will dry up by next year.

stoptothink
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Re: College in fall

Post by stoptothink » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:17 pm

SimonJester wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:50 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:52 am
If that semester (or longer) was actually used to get some workforce experience and time out of their parent's home to develop as an adult, I absolutely agree (IMO college is a very poor alternative to the real world in this respect). That being said, I doubt "living on their own, managing their own expenses, figuring out where to go and what to do, meeting all sorts of different people, etc..." is what is going to be happening in the huge majority of these cases. I'd love to know if the parents in this thread are expecting their children to use the semester (or more) off to increase their independence or if it'll be another year of high school (without the school).
I wonder if the number of jobs for high school graduates with little to no real work experience will be few and far between come fall. Remember after 08-09 tons of older adults who were laid off of their jobs took those entry level jobs themselves. I suspect for most it will be a year off playing video games and generally wasting time...
I think it is quite obvious that those job opportunities will be greatly decreased, which is exactly my point. Remote learning may not be ideal, but it is a lot better than the likely alternative. If I am counseling a young adult, this is a great time to reevaluate your options. See if it is possible to knock out some classes at a CC (and if they'd transfer) or even online-only options, but otherwise just stick with the plan. You'll be a semester behind if you defer and do nothing, and a 6-month break will make the introduction to college even more difficult.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Normchad » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:00 pm

HereToLearn wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:44 pm
Our DD has just declined several funded PhD offers for the fall. It isn't 100% due to this uncertainty, but it did play a significant role in her decision making process.

It sounds like many schools really had disruptions in the grad school acceptance processes due to the virus as well. Anecdotally, it sounds like some schools instituted a hiring freeze; which meant they made no offers. Some other schools, it seems, didn't get their offers out in time.

It's a crummy situation all around for everybody. It may be the case that your freshman children next year will have TAs that have never been on campus, have never met the professor, haven't been properly taught how to be a TA, etc.

Best of luck to everybody. We will get through this eventually.....
Am curious why your DD declined the funded PHD? Is she working presently and does not want to leave her job?

My son is thinking of a PHD, but I fear the funding will dry up by next year.
It was a tough decision. She was torn between the PhD and a great job offer she had in Texas. She ultimately decided the job offer and opportunities were too good to pass up.

She accepted the offer in Texas and declined the PhDs. And we just found out that job offer has been rescinded, so now she’s got nothing.

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Re: College in fall

Post by Sandwich » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:18 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:17 pm

I think it is quite obvious that those job opportunities will be greatly decreased, which is exactly my point. Remote learning may not be ideal, but it is a lot better than the likely alternative. If I am counseling a young adult, this is a great time to reevaluate your options. See if it is possible to knock out some classes at a CC (and if they'd transfer) or even online-only options, but otherwise just stick with the plan. You'll be a semester behind if you defer and do nothing, and a 6-month break will make the introduction to college even more difficult.
Observations from home and the neighborhood ...

College age son is completing Spring semester courses online ... his school made the transition from in person to on line classes after the spring break. His student job hours were greatly reduced.

As of now, summer course offerings will be online and he has registered for a couple of courses. He has lots of empty hours and binge watches TV series .... so having online courses will at least give him something to do. Hopefully, he will continue to have some work hours each week.

Neighbor says her college age son is also is finishing his college classes online. His job at the local municipal park evaporated with the stay-at-home orders ... so he has a lot of time on his hands as well. She says he is also spending a lot of time playing video games.

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Re: College in fall

Post by getthatmarshmallow » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:14 pm

If your student decides to defer a year, I strongly recommend that they do something formally intellectual at a CC or similar institution. Work is going to be hard to come by in a recession. And math skills decay distressingly quickly. Even if the credits don't transfer: take a math class. Take a literature class. Learn to code. Something that keeps them in the routine of learning. It can be very hard to get back into it after some time away.

RetiredCSProf
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Re: College in fall

Post by RetiredCSProf » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:12 pm

My son will be entering his senior year at a Cal State Univ (CSU) in the fall. The Chancellor of the CSUs has said to plan for online classes for the Fall semester, as it is uncertain whether they will be able to hold face-to-face classes. My neighbor teaches at the same school that my son attends and has been told to plan for face-to-face classes in the fall.

For upper-class students, it's not just about face-to-face learning, but also about having access to lab equipment for hands-on learning.

My son's major is Film Production -- this spring semester, he missed out on not having the opportunity to film his first 5-minute student project using the school's equipment. His department limits enrollment to 50 production students each year due to equipment limitations. Courses are taught in sequence, so missing one semester would cause a one-year delay.

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Re: College in fall

Post by DoTheMath » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:11 am

Normchad wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:00 pm
HereToLearn wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:44 pm
Our DD has just declined several funded PhD offers for the fall. It isn't 100% due to this uncertainty, but it did play a significant role in her decision making process.

It sounds like many schools really had disruptions in the grad school acceptance processes due to the virus as well. Anecdotally, it sounds like some schools instituted a hiring freeze; which meant they made no offers. Some other schools, it seems, didn't get their offers out in time.

It's a crummy situation all around for everybody. It may be the case that your freshman children next year will have TAs that have never been on campus, have never met the professor, haven't been properly taught how to be a TA, etc.

Best of luck to everybody. We will get through this eventually.....
Am curious why your DD declined the funded PHD? Is she working presently and does not want to leave her job?

My son is thinking of a PHD, but I fear the funding will dry up by next year.
It was a tough decision. She was torn between the PhD and a great job offer she had in Texas. She ultimately decided the job offer and opportunities were too good to pass up.

She accepted the offer in Texas and declined the PhDs. And we just found out that job offer has been rescinded, so now she’s got nothing.
If she is still interested in the PhD programs, it wouldn't hurt to reach out to them to see if she could attend after all. For budget reasons and such it's not likely to come to anything, but it wouldn't hurt either.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir

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