Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

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Tamarind
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Tamarind »

masha12 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am He makes more than 6 times what you make.

He charges you 70% of your income for rent.

You do all the cooking, laundry and laundry.
This is bugging me too. My wife and I took our dear sweet time getting married for a variety of reasons (10 years!), but I was not benefiting financially from the delay. We are both Bogleheads, and we were making financial decisions together as partners (though not entering into large transactions together) well before we got married.

OP asked why selling and splitting 65/35 would be so complicated. The simple reason is that she wouldn't be able to make him sell if she only owned 35%. She'd have to sue him to force him to either sell or buy her out. Given the difference in income/assets, he could drag out the process for a long time.
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galawdawg
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by galawdawg »

House mortgage is a strain for him? If the house was purchased for $380,000, even with no money down and a 5% rate on a thirty year mortgage, his payment is only about $2,000 a month plus taxes and insurance. He makes $150k a year.

In the meantime, you are paying "rent" and chipping in on other bills to the tune of $1,400 a month on your annual income of $24k?

I agree with the others, way too many red flags here on many fronts. There are many reasons to walk away from this "business proposition". IMHO, there is nothing equal nor equitable about your "partnership".
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cchrissyy
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by cchrissyy »

the fact he makes 6 times the income you do and yet, makes you pay the majority of your own income to him as rent is very troubling.

the fact he wants you to hand over your savings and lock it into an asset he has majority control of, is very troubling.

these things reduce your freedom to ever leave him and your financial strength for every future thing you can imagine. retirement. your child's needs. helping other people. paying for your education. relocating for a better job. it would mean all your eggs in one basket and it's HIS basket. Please also notice that just make this deal, and to get out of it someday, you will have to pay a lawyer. honestly you can't afford the lawyer you need to hire to write this contract. they cost hundreds of dollars per hour of work!

please don't do this. it risks everything you have. a good boyfriend would not ask you to sacrifice this much. he would strengthen his finances BEFORE joining them with yours. he would never dream of strengthening himself by taking your money.
Unfortunately, I see him doing that now. You strengthen his finances by how much you pay him each month.( $1400). He talks of raising that figure ($1900!). And he talks about you dropping your savings into an asset he controls. No. that's not a good boyfriend.
researcher
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by researcher »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am He was happy when I moved in a year and a half ago and offered to help him “pay on the mortgage”.
He strongly suggested I use my cash back for my increased payments to him each month - roughly $1900.
I’m also in charge of all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and most of the errands.
Marriage- it’s something I want and he knows that.
Term life- something we’ve talked about and he is open to. He said I should pay for this.
What exactly are you getting, financially or otherwise, from this arrangement?
- He was in a financial bind and you bailed him out by paying a big chunk of his monthly mortgage.
- He now wants you to give him a large lump sum to pay for renovations to his house.
- Once the renovations are complete, he will charge you an extra $500/mo more.
- You continue to assume the role of a live-in servant, tending to all of the domestic duties.
- He ignores your desire for marriage, preferring instead for you to pay the mortgage and be a house keeper.
- He wants you to pay for HIS life insurance policy.

How do you not see these as huge red flags?

Not only should you not "invest" in this man's home, you should be formulating a speedy escape plan from this relationship.
Last edited by researcher on Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
HomeStretch
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by HomeStretch »

Showing your BF this thread is probably a good idea followed by a discussion about what is a fair to charge you for rent and what is a fair amount to be deducted from your share of the rent for your housekeeping services.

You said it is cheaper than living as a single yet I find it hard to believe you would be able to afford $1,400 or $1,900 per month (which is too high as a % of your salary) if you lived alone. Rather I think you would find something more economical in order to stay on budget. There is no way your housing should be more expensive than 20-25% of your earnings.

The reno doesn’t sound like a necessity so consider not doing it especially if it causes your share to go up from $1,400 to $1,900/month.

It is not a good idea to own a home prior to getting married. The deal that is being offered to you by BF is unfair and premature for your relationship.
toast0
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by toast0 »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am A bit of history- He purchased joint in 2016 with his now ex-wife. She moved out a little over two years ago and he bought her half. She gained several thousand (not sure the amount) on the reappraisal post-divorce- a 100K increase in two years. He gave her an extra $5K because she was apparently telling negative things about him to his network of friends. It was a big challenge for him financially, while things re-calibrated in his life.

"yeah if we split up we just sell the house and split 65/35", however it will be much more complicated if that happens!”
The last time he split up, he didn't follow through on selling the house to split the equity; even though there was a nice gain to make up for the cost of selling. Chances are, whatever kept him from selling before is going to keep him from selling again, but if it happens soon, he's not in a position to pay your equity with cash. Not to be a downer, but construction on one's home ads significant stress, and strains relationships; if you breakup during construction, it's going to be a big mess. A weird partial ownership contract is not the way to finance this construction.
junior
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by junior »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am
Term life- something we’ve talked about and he is open to. He said I should pay for this.
Yeah, I missed this.

Your boyfriend is aggressively negotiating with you as if you have a business relationship and he's trying to get the best bargain, like Apple would negotiate for Iphone components.

You aren't approaching it this way, you are trying to be a good girlfriend, so he keeps "winning" the negotiation and you keep giving him most of your money. It's not a good situation for your financial future.

If you do decide to get married he's going to "win" that prenup negotiation as well with aggressive terms in the prenup. Or perhaps you'll never be married.
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FlyAF
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by FlyAF »

Sounds like he's trying to fund a remodel that he can't afford on a house that he can't afford.
cherijoh
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by cherijoh »

masha12 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am He makes more than 6 times what you make.

He charges you 70% of your income for rent.

You do all the cooking, laundry and laundry.

You want marriage and he is stalling.

Conclusion: You are a live-in housekeeper with benefits who actually pays him (instead of him paying you for your work) for the “privilege” of serving him.
...
You deserve better. Your child deserves better.
FlyAF wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:52 am Sounds like he's trying to fund a remodel that he can't afford on a house that he can't afford.
Both of your responses are spot on.

Your BF needs a reality check. He and the Ex should have sold the house and split the proceeds. Basically, he can't afford the house (much less the renovation he wants to do). A cash out refi to cover current operating expenses is a huge red flag. A good chunk of the people who lost their homes in the housing crisis did so because of cash out refinances to cover regular expenses. And if you stay together, the two of you need to get serious about improving cash flow by plugging the leaks in the budget.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Sandtrap »

A lot of promises are being made. . . . possibly.

Actionably:
Imagine buying into this business arrangement.
After 1 year, you decide to cancel the business arrangement.
What will bet your costs?

j :happy
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PVW
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by PVW »

Many are looking at this through a lens of finances and traditional relationships. The bottom line is that both of you need to figure out what is agreeable.

I am in a similar situation except without any kids at home. My girlfriend has lived in the house that I own for about 10 years. She contributes to the regular housing expenses in proportion to her income - roughly 1/3. All irregular expenses like maintenance and major appliances are my responsibility. Other shared expenses like food, dining, travel, are very roughly split the same, but we don't keep track. Separate expenses like cars, insurance, clothing, etc. are the responsibility of the individual.

This has worked OK, but my girlfriend is concerned over not having any ownership in the house. This is somewhat connected to selling her previous house and now she has "nothing". I understand this is an emotional issue and she feels like a tenant that wouldn't have anything if we broke up. But the reality (I'm innately logical) is that she's much better financially without her previous home and if we ever split, I have no problem giving her whatever she thinks is fair for her housing contributions. This doesn't soothe her concerns.

I could see a logical case for splitting housing expenses 50/50, but with your wide disparity in income, this doesn't seem fair. Estimating some rough mortgage numbers and utilities, it seems like you might be paying more than 50% - especially if you go to $1,900 per month.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by cheese_breath »

cherijoh wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:07 pm
masha12 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am He makes more than 6 times what you make.

He charges you 70% of your income for rent.

You do all the cooking, laundry and laundry.

You want marriage and he is stalling.

Conclusion: You are a live-in housekeeper with benefits who actually pays him (instead of him paying you for your work) for the “privilege” of serving him.
...
You deserve better. Your child deserves better.
FlyAF wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:52 am Sounds like he's trying to fund a remodel that he can't afford on a house that he can't afford.
Both of your responses are spot on.

Your BF needs a reality check. He and the Ex should have sold the house and split the proceeds. Basically, he can't afford the house (much less the renovation he wants to do). A cash out refi to cover current operating expenses is a huge red flag. A good chunk of the people who lost their homes in the housing crisis did so because of cash out refinances to cover regular expenses. And if you stay together, the two of you need to get serious about improving cash flow by plugging the leaks in the budget.
You are being taken advantage of BIG TIME. I hope this guy's good in bed because in every other way he seems like a loser.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
daheld
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by daheld »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am A bit of history- He purchased joint in 2016 with his now ex-wife. She moved out a little over two years ago and he bought her half. She gained several thousand (not sure the amount) on the reappraisal post-divorce- a 100K increase in two years. He gave her an extra $5K because she was apparently telling negative things about him to his network of friends. It was a big challenge for him financially, while things re-calibrated in his life. So over time, yes, the house mortgage has been a definite strain for him. He was happy when I moved in a year and a half ago and offered to help him “pay on the mortgage”. Over time he has re-framed this as “bills and food”. My daughter gets her own bedroom, occasional clothing purchases, and we spend a lot on food each month. The amount these total to haven’t been quantified.
This paragraph only reinforces my previous comment that this would be a monumentally, phenomenally bad idea. Do not do this.
ballons
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by ballons »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am ...I’m also in charge of all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and most of the errands....
Red flags. Do not ignore them.

You are going to finish school and the job market could be garbage in your area. Do you want to be tied down to this house? If you notice you don't say "our home."
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Watty
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Watty »

portlandor wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:20 pm His asset: House valued at $480K, anticipated to increase after reappraisal, he owns about 50K
One scenario that has not been mentioned is that there is not a lot of home equity right now.

It is not uncommon for home prices to drop by 20% or more after a big runup and Portland has had a huge runup in home prices. I used to live there.

If you break up and the home is worth a lot less than it could be sold for, especially after real estate commissions, then you may be responsible for your share of the loss. '

That makes sense if you are really a part owner but if you are not married then there is a lot more likelihood of you breaking up.

You have a lot more at risk than just your downpayment and monthly payments.
portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am A bit of history- He purchased joint in 2016 with his now ex-wife. She moved out a little over two years ago and he bought her half.
It might just be me but living in a house that he had lived in with a prior spouse would feel a bit awkward to me.

There is a lot to be said for just moving and buying a different place together once you are married.

That way you can get a fresh start the new place can be your(plural) place together.

You could also find a place that does not need to be remodeled.




'
Freetime76
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Freetime76 »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:03 am This is one very unique way of looking at things for a man and a woman in the distant past.

You = "she"
Him, boyfriend, person who courts = "he"

You should not have to pay anything.
You and your child should be able to walk away at any time for any reason without strings.
You would need all of your money to get a fresh start if things turn South.
You should feel protected and "taken care of".
You should feel like a proper damsel and princess.

He should be your "Knight in Shining Armor".
He should be chivalrous.
He should be generous.
He should be protective.
He should open the carriage door for you.
He should carry an umbrella to shield you from the rain.
He should pay the bill to dine at the inn.
He should pay all the expenses of the castle he owns.
In return solely for your loyalty and love.

This is not a "business" relationship, shouldn't be.

Consider another Knight and Castle.

*A million plus ways of looking at these things with double that number of opinions.

j :happy
YEEEEESSSSS. :sharebeer

There are SO MANY more ways this can go badly for you than go well for you (financially). No, no, and no.

No. You should not pay for term life, on “your man” to protect your own self. I’m sputtering more now that this is his response. Unacceptable! Yes, show him this thread. :D

His divorce history is not relevant, imho. He’s in an expensive house with low net worth, apparently -in part - living off a student girlfriend and single mom. Why can’t he save up several grand a month and then do the remodel? :oops:

To the OP’s later question about “ "A split won't be unbearably complicated for a net positive outcome"...only works when it works. Ok ...I suppose it’s not that much money in the whole scheme of your life, if you get exactly zero back, and minus legal fees over potential wrangling. BUT...

This deal is consuming, however, a major part of your cash on hand. What if your car dies,you have a major medical bill, or don’t find a job immediately? Are you going to owe him since you’re cash poor now? This really upsets the power balance, because of unequal finances (not “ours”).

A few possible catastrophes: the housing market tanks - coronavirus and oil wars spook everyone, let’s say - and the house loan to value ratio is upside down, can’t sell or can’t get him to sell....You break up, you have to move out, and he meets the love of his life -proposes immediately- who moves in immediately making your life messy, awkward, and wishing you had a 5 second way to get away from his finances. I say this because I can tick off the names of women friends who were with a guy (MD, let’s say), waiting on him to propose and it never q-u-I-t-e happens, but it’s serious. He is smarter financially, in theory, he has a higher income. Voila, they break up. Next lady shows up within a week, is engaged in a month and married the next spring. I don’t want that for you - please recognize that sometimes he’ll go for what’s convenient...until it isn’t. You should not have to convince him of anything. The best way to “convince” him may be to go be financially independent without his high earning self, so that he can decide what he wants...beyond a house remodel using OPM (other people’s money).

If you were my little sister, I’d say you’re being taken advantage of already (given the living arrangements), and I’d share a bottle of wine to try to keep you from financially entangling yourself with this person.
pennywise
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by pennywise »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:30 am To be clear, I haven't made up my mind yet- I'm more 20 yes/80 no. I appreciate how you're almost all emphasizing marriage first.

I understand and agree with the conservative perspectives- many good points. The 20 percent is coming from the part of me saying, "A split won't be unbearably complicated for a net positive outcome", and that's what I want to debunk. ResearchMed, thanks for speaking to that.
What you seem to be missing, or refusing to acknowledge, is that a split from your partner in your current unmarried legal situation is likely to be complicated with a net negative outcome for you. As has been noted, this is the extremely rare topic on which every single BH has responded to you to confirm that this is a bad, bad, very bad idea for you. Bogleheads are a pretty smart, very experienced and genuinely altruistic group of savvy investors with a lot of life and relationship experience, and not a single one has agreed with your 20% best case scenario.

I also want to touch on something else which is the question of basic fairness. At this point your partner makes 6 times what you do and yet you are paying an amount that equals 50% of your income (or more, the number seems to have gone from $1400 to $1900/month).

In a fair partnership you should be paying, as should he, an amount proportionate to your incomes that meets your joint financial needs. Well, you should be doing that if you were married since the house mortgage would then be a shared debt with a shared potential profit potential.

As it is, you seem to be trying to justify paying your 'share' based on the concept that you'd pay a stranger/landlord more. Is he that or is he a partner? A partnership includes taking care of each other and in this case your child as part of the package. Partnership is not him giving you a break on market rents. Final flashing neon danger sign is that with your income a fraction of his, you still have savings and he has none.

In your follow up comment you added that you are also responsible for the household maintenance and errands along with propping this guy up financially, and he is now asking you to give him large sums of money to finance his house to which you have not an iota of legal claim.....definitely reevaluate the entire situation not just the current mortgage/ownership proposition.

Invest in his mortgage? Not today Satan :wink:
Last edited by pennywise on Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blue456
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Blue456 »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:03 am This is one very unique way of looking at things for a man and a woman in the distant past.

You = "she"
Him, boyfriend, person who courts = "he"

You should not have to pay anything.
You and your child should be able to walk away at any time for any reason without strings.
You would need all of your money to get a fresh start if things turn South.
You should feel protected and "taken care of".
You should feel like a proper damsel and princess.

He should be your "Knight in Shining Armor".
He should be chivalrous.
He should be generous.
He should be protective.
He should open the carriage door for you.
He should carry an umbrella to shield you from the rain.
He should pay the bill to dine at the inn.
He should pay all the expenses of the castle he owns.
In return solely for your loyalty and love.

This is not a "business" relationship, shouldn't be.

Consider another Knight and Castle.

*A million plus ways of looking at these things with double that number of opinions.

j :happy
+2.
I couldn’t help myself. I really agree with the post. And that’s coming from a Millennial.

Get married first then pay for the house. Of course make sure to have your own 6 month emergency fund.
fru-gal
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by fru-gal »

Regardless of the very bad idea financial situation, you are living with someone who is taking advantage of you and not treating you as someone to be cherished, which he should do if he loves you. Life is short, dump him. Even if you don't find someone else, you will be better off financially and better off in terms of self respect.

(The mods must all be asleep.)
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StevieG72
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by StevieG72 »

portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am

StevieG72- “If you don't get married and split up you will be glad you are not tied to the home! It is easy to say "yeah if we split up we just sell the house and split 65/35", however it will be much more complicated if that happens!”

How will it be more complicated
So you pull the trigger on this arrangement and 1.5 yrs from now the two of you split up. He has to sell the house per your agreement, the real estate market has cooled and since a cash out refinance was done there is negative equity in the home after realtor fees. ( it happens!) Too bad so sad, you now owe 35% of the deficit! Its only fair?
Or... after the breakup he wants to keep the house and stalls on making an honest effort to sell the home. ( higher than reasonable sale price, unreasonable terms etc.) He gets to stay in the house and you are left waiting. In the meantime he has to pay the mortgage and you have to pay your portion or it will be deducted from your net proceeds. Imagine 6 months of mortgage payments being deducted from your net proceeds!?!?
One more scenario, the two of you split and he has a new romantic interest that wants to buy out your 35%. Since the home is not being sold it is only fair to deduct real estate transaction fees that would have applied otherwise to your net proceeds.

What is the justification for you increasing your contribution to $1900 per month? This whole idea sounds great for him, not so good for you. You need to set a good example for your daughter, getting involved in this convoluted transaction is not a good example.

I think you are overestimating the upside of this transaction and downplaying the downside. It really is a bad idea!

Lastly, welcome to the forum. You will find honest, genuine feedback unlike many other forums. It is also heavily moderated to maintain civil discourse. If you want a winning investment, there are better options, and you have found the right place to learn about them. Best of luck to you!
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
Freetime76
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by Freetime76 »

StevieG72 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:02 pm
portlandor wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 am

StevieG72- “If you don't get married and split up you will be glad you are not tied to the home! It is easy to say "yeah if we split up we just sell the house and split 65/35", however it will be much more complicated if that happens!”

How will it be more complicated
So you pull the trigger on this arrangement and 1.5 yrs from now the two of you split up. He has to sell the house per your agreement, the real estate market has cooled and since a cash out refinance was done there is negative equity in the home after realtor fees. ( it happens!) Too bad so sad, you now owe 35% of the deficit! Its only fair?
Or... after the breakup he wants to keep the house and stalls on making an honest effort to sell the home. ( higher than reasonable sale price, unreasonable terms etc.) He gets to stay in the house and you are left waiting. In the meantime he has to pay the mortgage and you have to pay your portion or it will be deducted from your net proceeds. Imagine 6 months of mortgage payments being deducted from your net proceeds!?!?
One more scenario, the two of you split and he has a new romantic interest that wants to buy out your 35%. Since the home is not being sold it is only fair to deduct real estate transaction fees that would have applied otherwise to your net proceeds.

What is the justification for you increasing your contribution to $1900 per month? This whole idea sounds great for him, not so good for you. You need to set a good example for your daughter, getting involved in this convoluted transaction is not a good example.

I think you are overestimating the upside of this transaction and downplaying the downside. It really is a bad idea!

Lastly, welcome to the forum. You will find honest, genuine feedback unlike many other forums. It is also heavily moderated to maintain civil discourse. If you want a winning investment, there are better options, and you have found the right place to learn about them. Best of luck to you!
This is a fair explanation. As you’re a graduating student...you might investigate this forum on living in high cost of living vs medium or low cost of living areas (HCOL, MCOL, LCOL). A switch can maximize what you do have.

* Portlandor - Plase don’t sell yourself short. You S.O. May make significantly more money than you (for now), but from the all-knowing seat of the Internet ( :happy ) you are doing well with your finances On Your Own, (even handicapped with this ridiculous payment scenario) and as a single mom to boot. You have a low income as a student, and you Still Have Savings! You received an inheritance and you Still Have Some of it Left! You have a clear picture of your finances. This is ahead of the game, in some sense.

Please know that a higher income does not necessarily mean more financially savvy. Sometimes it just magnifies the tendencies an individual already has to spend, save, etc...for some people, this means more opportunities to get into trouble. I wonder if your S.O. posted on here, would the advice be to sell the house?
halfnine
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by halfnine »

Edward Joseph wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:05 am I’ve cohabitated with a significant other before. I owned the place while she paid me “rent”. As others suggested DO NOT legally tie yourself to this without being married. In my situation, she was legally a tenant and paid me about 1/3 the rent what she would pay on her own place. Plus, we split the utilities. It is so much simpler this way...
This.

I have cohabitated before as well. The home was in their name. They wanted to charge me market rate rent. So, I offered to buy the place and charge them market rate since it would obviously should be fair either way. They declined as that would have taken them out of the property market and they would essentially be paying my mortgage. But, somehow if the role was reversed they didn't seem to mind so much.
cherijoh
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Re: Unmarried home ownership, joining his preexisting purchase

Post by cherijoh »

halfnine wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:23 am I have cohabitated before as well. The home was in their name. They wanted to charge me market rate rent. So, I offered to buy the place and charge them market rate since it would obviously should be fair either way. They declined as that would have taken them out of the property market and they would essentially be paying my mortgage. But, somehow if the role was reversed they didn't seem to mind so much.
There you go - applying logic! :wink:
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