Name of a living trust?

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jazure828
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Name of a living trust?

Post by jazure828 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm

My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?

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FIREchief
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by FIREchief » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:42 pm

I don't believe that there are any real requirements for the name. I would always insist on a short enough name that it could be fully entered onto any beneficiary designations. It could be as simple as "jazure828 living trust." It likely doesn't matter so much for assets that will be immediately transferred into the trust, but qualified retirement accounts will need to utilize a beneficiary designation.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

Money Market
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Money Market » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:45 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:42 pm
I don't believe that there are any real requirements for the name. I would always insist on a short enough name that it could be fully entered onto any beneficiary designations. It could be as simple as "jazure828 living trust." It likely doesn't matter so much for assets that will be immediately transferred into the trust, but qualified retirement accounts will need to utilize a beneficiary designation.
I assumed most people name it as John Smith Revocable Living Trust and apply and associate an EIN with it (to prevent duplicate names).

cjclueless
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by cjclueless » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:56 pm

Can an EIN be obtained while the grantor is still alive? I realize that an EIN is required once the trust becomes irrevocable upon the grantor's death, but before then, all income from said trust is attributable to the grantor under their SSN, yes?

Maybe a "pre-EIN" might enable the trustee to save a step later.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm

cjclueless wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:56 pm
Can an EIN be obtained while the grantor is still alive? I realize that an EIN is required once the trust becomes irrevocable upon the grantor's death, but before then, all income from said trust is attributable to the grantor under their SSN, yes?

Maybe a "pre-EIN" might enable the trustee to save a step later.
I think you can get an EIN while the grantor is still alive. But it's usually not a good idea because the trust's tax rates are much higher than the grantor's tax rates.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

JBTX
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by JBTX » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:08 pm

jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
Ours had both spouses full name including spouses maiden name plus date etc etc. Lawyers seems to think it is important to show it verbatim but that is impossible on online forms. I just shorten it and hope for the best.

Gill
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Gill » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:29 pm

When I was in the trust business we referred to the long title and the short title of a trust. Long title might be "John Doe and Mary Doe as trustees under the John Doe declaration of trust dated February 26, 2020" whereas the short title might be "John Doe tr 2/26/2020". For most purposes either title should suffice but there is usually not a need to use the long title.
Gill
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unclescrooge
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by unclescrooge » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:12 pm

Gill wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:29 pm
When I was in the trust business we referred to the long title and the short title of a trust. Long title might be "John Doe and Mary Doe as trustees under the John Doe declaration of trust dated February 26, 2020" whereas the short title might be "John Doe tr 2/26/2020". For most purposes either title should suffice but there is usually not a need to use the long title.
Gill
Does living trust need to have the words"living trust" in its name?

Gill
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Gill » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:14 pm

unclescrooge wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:12 pm
Gill wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:29 pm
When I was in the trust business we referred to the long title and the short title of a trust. Long title might be "John Doe and Mary Doe as trustees under the John Doe declaration of trust dated February 26, 2020" whereas the short title might be "John Doe tr 2/26/2020". For most purposes either title should suffice but there is usually not a need to use the long title.
Gill
Does living trust need to have the words"living trust" in its name?
No, it can be but not necessary.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment | One advises and gives advice | One should follow the principle of investing one's principal

bsteiner
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by bsteiner » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:26 pm

jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
You may call it whatever you want. If you want to keep your real estate out of the public records, you wouldn't want your name in the name of the trust (nor would you want to be a trustee).
Money Market wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:45 pm
...
I assumed most people name it as John Smith Revocable Living Trust and apply and associate an EIN with it (to prevent duplicate names).
Usually one (Revocable or Living) or the other, but not both, since that would be redundant.
cjclueless wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:56 pm
Can an EIN be obtained while the grantor is still alive? ...
Yes, though that would be unusual. Even if you get one, the trustees would have to get a new one upon your death.
cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
...
I think you can get an EIN while the grantor is still alive. But it's usually not a good idea because the trust's tax rates are much higher than the grantor's tax rates.
The grantor would still be taxable on the trust's income and gains.
unclescrooge wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:12 pm
...
Does living trust need to have the words"living trust" in its name?
No. You may call it whatever you want. Some people prefer not to use living or revocable in the name of the trust to avoid confusion after the grantor's death.

Lastrun
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Lastrun » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 pm

I am not a fan of using “living” or “revocable” in the trust name because the grantor ultimately dies, and then this can be confusing to banks, etc. when the trust becomes testamentary and irrevocable.

To expand on Gill’s answer, there are three components of the full trust name—trust name, trustees and instrument date. I always feel as long as you have two of the three you are probably OK.

Historically, the trust was not viewed as an “entity” and old school was to use the trustees name(s) and the instrument date. Indeed, in VA if you had a deed that listed just the trust name only, and the not the trustees as grantor or grantee, it was a title defect. They amended the code so you can now list the trust name as the grantee.

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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Gill » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:36 pm

Lastrun wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 pm
I am not a fan of using “living” or “revocable” in the trust name because the grantor ultimately dies, and then this can be confusing to banks, etc. when the trust becomes testamentary and irrevocable.
Just to correct one thing; The trust becomes irrevocable when the grantor dies but doesn't become testamentary. A testamentary trust is one created by a will whereas a grantor or inter vivos trust is one created by contract during one's lifetime. A grantor trust never becomes a testamentary trust.

Gill
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palanzo
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by palanzo » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:41 pm

bsteiner wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:26 pm
jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
You may call it whatever you want. If you want to keep your real estate out of the public records, you wouldn't want your name in the name of the trust (nor would you want to be a trustee).
If you call it BlueSky Trust, for example, how would the trustee name be made public as far as real estate is concerned?

Gill
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Gill » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:45 pm

palanzo wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:41 pm
bsteiner wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:26 pm
jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
You may call it whatever you want. If you want to keep your real estate out of the public records, you wouldn't want your name in the name of the trust (nor would you want to be a trustee).
If you call it BlueSky Trust, for example, how would the trustee name be made public as far as real estate is concerned?
If the trust agreement is recorded it would be available to anyone.
Gill
Cost basis is redundant. One has a basis in an investment | One advises and gives advice | One should follow the principle of investing one's principal

bsteiner
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by bsteiner » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:00 pm

Gill wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:45 pm
palanzo wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:41 pm
bsteiner wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:26 pm
jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
You may call it whatever you want. If you want to keep your real estate out of the public records, you wouldn't want your name in the name of the trust (nor would you want to be a trustee).
If you call it BlueSky Trust, for example, how would the trustee name be made public as far as real estate is concerned?
If the trust agreement is recorded it would be available to anyone.
Gill
The trust agreement probably wouldn't be recorded, but the deed (which would be recorded) would show the name of the trustee, the name of the trust, and probably the date of the trust. If you want to keep your name out of the public records, you could create a revocable trust with someone else as the trustee.

Of course, this doesn't come up very often. Most people don't have revocable trusts, and most of the people who have revocable trusts don't care if their name appears on the deed to their property.

Lastrun
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Lastrun » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:19 pm

Gill wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:36 pm
Lastrun wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 pm
I am not a fan of using “living” or “revocable” in the trust name because the grantor ultimately dies, and then this can be confusing to banks, etc. when the trust becomes testamentary and irrevocable.
Just to correct one thing; The trust becomes irrevocable when the grantor dies but doesn't become testamentary. A testamentary trust is one created by a will whereas a grantor or inter vivos trust is one created by contract during one's lifetime. A grantor trust never becomes a testamentary trust.

Gill
Sorry Gill you are not 100% correct either. Standard pour over will to an existing revocable trust would be the issue. In VA some Commissioners of Accounts treat a pour over of assets to a revocable trust as testamentary. But I get your point. We were both not precise.
Last edited by Lastrun on Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

decapod10
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by decapod10 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:24 pm

I think the name of our trust is "Smith-Jones Family Trust", but they recommended that when we put our house in the trust, we use "Sally Smith and Billy Jones, as trustees, or any successor trustee, of the Smith-Jones Family Trust, under agreement dated 1/1/2019". Quite a mouthful.

Though often when you sign up for a trust bank account, I noticed that you put all the information in separately (the trustees, the trust name, etc) so I don't think I've actually put that whole thing down for bank accounts.

NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:14 pm

jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019". It is very long and the special characters made it hard to enter the name on line. Is this name normal? Does the entire name need to be in the title of bank accounts, properties, beneficiary designation etc?
I saw this at Ally:


This table shows common abbreviations for Trust title words or phrases. Trust Title Words/Phrases Abbreviation
Agreement Agmt
And &
Dated DTD
Declaration Dec
Family Fam
For Benefit Of FBO
Irrevocable Irrev
Living Liv
Revocable Rev
Separate Property Sep Prop
Special Needs / Supplementary Needs SNT
Testamentary TT
Trust Tr
Trust Under Will T/U/W
Under Agreement U/A
Under Trust Dated U/T/D

For example, if your Formal Name of Trust is: The John James Doe Revocable Family Living Trust

The abbreviated name would be: The John James Doe Rev Fam Liv Tr
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NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:17 pm

jazure828 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:24 pm
My lawyer created my living trust using the name "Lastname Revocable Trust /u/t/d November 7, 2019".
My extended family and many of my friends never use a surname/name for the RevTrust. We use useless names like "Bluesky Trust". Note that the proper name of the trust is arguably "Lastname Revocable Trust" and the date is ancillary to that in my opinion.

Like many legal things, folks will disagree, and practice will vary. I'm not an attorney, hire one for professional advice.
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein

Gill
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Gill » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:25 pm

Lastrun wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:19 pm
Gill wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:36 pm
Lastrun wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 pm
I am not a fan of using “living” or “revocable” in the trust name because the grantor ultimately dies, and then this can be confusing to banks, etc. when the trust becomes testamentary and irrevocable.
Just to correct one thing; The trust becomes irrevocable when the grantor dies but doesn't become testamentary. A testamentary trust is one created by a will whereas a grantor or inter vivos trust is one created by contract during one's lifetime. A grantor trust never becomes a testamentary trust.

Gill
Sorry Gill you are not 100% correct either. Standard pour over will to an existing revocable trust would be the issue. In VA some Commissioners of Accounts treat a pour over of assets to a revocable trust as testamentary. But I get your point. We were both not precise.
I believe I was quite precise as well as accurate. Just because some commissioner in Virginia “ treats” a pourover to a revocable trust as testamentary doesn’t make the revocable trust a testamentary trust.
Gill
Last edited by Gill on Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MN-Investor
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by MN-Investor » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:26 pm

Ours is MyLastName HusbandLastName Family Trust.

That's it.

It's about 15 years old. No issues with that name.
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Luckywon
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:33 pm

My living Trust has a pompous and unwieldy name (suggested by the attorney) that never fits onto any form. Such an unnecessary hassle. Too bad this thread was not around before I created it.

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BullMoose
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by BullMoose » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:11 pm

At the risk of highjacking, we recently met with a lawyer to review/amend our trust. Ours is currently My full name and Wife's Full name Family Trust Dated XX/XX/XXXX and we had a similar issue of it not fitting in forms. The lawyer said abbreviations are fine, just try to at least get Last Name Trust and Date in the name.

My assumption before that conversation with the lawyer, and this thread, was that the naming convention would have to be exact for the asset to really be in the trust.

From a legal standpoint, is it just the intent of trying to put the asset in the trust that counts?
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palanzo
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Re: Name of a living trust?

Post by palanzo » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:15 pm

BullMoose wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:11 pm
At the risk of highjacking, we recently met with a lawyer to review/amend our trust. Ours is currently My full name and Wife's Full name Family Trust Dated XX/XX/XXXX and we had a similar issue of it not fitting in forms. The lawyer said abbreviations are fine, just try to at least get Last Name Trust and Date in the name.

My assumption before that conversation with the lawyer, and this thread, was that the naming convention would have to be exact for the asset to really be in the trust.

From a legal standpoint, is it just the intent of trying to put the asset in the trust that counts?
I would change the name to BlueSky Trust and then you have no problems with forms.

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