Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Stuck in limbo! My husband is POA for his 96 year-old father who has mild dementia and lives in very nice (and expensive) assisted living at the top care level. He picked out this facility 6 years ago and is comfortable there so we want to make certain he can remain. We have access to father's accounts with Capital One, TD Bank, and Vanguard but the balances are dropping. We found out recently about an IRA he holds with DWS (part of Deutsche Bank) worth about $100,000.

DWS is insisting on a Gold Medallion signature guarantee on their form to accept the POA documents. After several calls, they will not budge on this. Our only brick and mortar bank, Wells Fargo, will provide medallion guarantees for certain transactions, but not for this one. A private banking manager with Wells called their corporate group responsible for this in our presence and this does seem to be official policy.

We are Flagship customers with Vanguard, so we reached out to our representative (a new one we never dealt with before, but still assigned to us) and explained the situation. She said she would be our advocate and reach out to the proper people to see if they could provide this service. My husband would have to fly to Phoenix, but it would be preferable to initiating legal action with DWS. The Flagship rep is going on vacation, so she warned us it would be at least a week before she can get back to us. We're not optimistic about Vanguard agreeing to do this based on the discussion with the rep.

If we cannot gain access to these funds, when father's other funds run out we will not be able to get him on Medicaid as he has this account -- even if he cannot access it because of his incapacitation or his POA cannot access it because of inability to obtain Gold Medallion stamp. Looks like we would be forced to initiate legal action to force DWS to accept the POA.

Father is located in Pennsylvania, which has state statutes to limit the potential for financial institutions to reject valid POAs. "Section 5608(a) places an affirmative duty on third parties to comply with the instructions of the agent. Third parties who fail to com­ply with the instructions of the agent without reasonable cause are subject to civil liability for any damages resulting from the noncompliance. And Section 5608(b) provides third parties with immunity if they act in good faith reliance on the instructions of the agent." Unfortunately, one particular legal case (not even involving a bank) has apparently caused banks to view risk of granting POA status to be higher than risk of denying POA status. https://www.paelderlaw.com/estate-plann ... f-attorney

There is a company advertising they can provide gold medallion stamps and they have said they can do this. https://www.signaturemedallion.com/ Cost would be $159 - $279 which seems like a bargain looking at the alternatives.

We can also have attorney send a letter to DWS and hope they would accept the POA with normal notarization under threat of legal action.

We have gotten great ideas and guidance from the Bogelheads in the past, and would appreciate any feedback you might have for us in this situation.
Big Dog
Posts: 2227
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Big Dog »

I had a similar issue with a brokerage when my step-mom passed; they refused to transfer anything without a medallion signature. I looked up the CEO's name online and sent a short letter to the CEO* explaining that his bank's internal policies have created an unreasonable barrier to accessing accounts, particularly since many/most banks no longer do signature guarantees.

I received a call back from the bank's General Counsel three days later. She apologized profusely, and said her brokerage understood that many retail banks no longer perform guarantees, and that they were in the process of reviewing their internal policies. In the meantime, she called the VP in charge of Ops and told them to release our funds. Received a check by Fedex the next day.

*The peeps in the bowels have no authority to over-ride internal policy, but the boss does not like to receive complaints.
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 10996
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ResearchMed »

JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:39 pm
<snip>

There is a company advertising they can provide gold medallion stamps and they have said they can do this. https://www.signaturemedallion.com/ Cost would be $159 - $279 which seems like a bargain looking at the alternatives.

We can also have attorney send a letter to DWS and hope they would accept the POA with normal notarization under threat of legal action.

We have gotten great ideas and guidance from the Bogelheads in the past, and would appreciate any feedback you might have for us in this situation.
IF you can really get a company to give you the medallion stamps that you need (they do this remotely??), then that cost seems low enough, given the aggravation, time, and likely expense of pursuing other methods. :happy

As for that PA law, is DWS located in PA?
Also, Vanguard is among those who purposefully and knowingly ignored that PoA law for quite some time, quite flagrantly. :annoyed
I've read here that they are now better about that, but don't trust them a bit about this given their almost pride in ignoring the law before.

But anyway, the PA law only matters if DWS is in PA or has a branch there. My understanding of the law is that the company must be doing business in PA.
If you mentioned that and I missed it, apologies!

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
HomeStretch
Posts: 5391
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by HomeStretch »

Is there a local office for Fidelity, Schwab or another brokerage firm near FIL that you and FIL can go to in person? If FIL transfers the IRA to the new brokerage, the receiving brokerage will be happy to provide the medallion guarantees necessary for the Transfer of Account and POA/Agent Authorization for you to handle the account at the new brokerage.

The other alternative would be to have an attorney draft the POA. Not sure whether DWS will accept it easily but the attorney could deal with them if not. If FIL can get the account transferred first, some brokerages like Fidelity will accept such a client POA if the POA is executed within 6-12 months and accompanied by a notarized form.

Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process.
eukonomos
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by eukonomos »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:01 pm Is there a local office for Fidelity, Schwab or another brokerage firm near FIL that you and FIL can go to in person? If FIL transfers the IRA to the new brokerage, the receiving brokerage will be happy to provide the medallion guarantees necessary for the Transfer of Account and POA/Agent Authorization for you to handle the account at the new brokerage.

The other alternative would be to have an attorney draft the POA. Not sure whether DWS will accept it easily but the attorney could deal with them if not. If FIL can get the account transferred first, some brokerages like Fidelity will accept such a client POA if the POA is executed within 6-12 months and accompanied by a notarized form.
Just a thought - maybe it would be easier to transfer to TD Bank if they already accept your husbands POA. Then perhaps you could get it to TD Ameritrade. Or maybe even directly to TD Ameritrade.
User avatar
Kenkat
Posts: 6881
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:18 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Kenkat »

Is your father still able to operate in some capacity? For example, is he able to potentially go to the bank with your assistance and sign withdrawal forms for DWS and have the Medallion signature guarantee done? This is how we handled things with my mother in law under somewhat similar circumstances.
eukonomos
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by eukonomos »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:01 pm ...

Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process.
If that is possible, maybe you could reduce the tax hit by withdrawing just what is needed for the year (assuming that is less than the full distribution). And then some more next year.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Big Dog wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:50 pm I had a similar issue with a brokerage when my step-mom passed; they refused to transfer anything without a medallion signature. I looked up the CEO's name online and sent a short letter to the CEO* explaining that his bank's internal policies have created an unreasonable barrier to accessing accounts, particularly since many/most banks no longer do signature guarantees.

I received a call back from the bank's General Counsel three days later. She apologized profusely, and said her brokerage understood that many retail banks no longer perform guarantees, and that they were in the process of reviewing their internal policies. In the meantime, she called the VP in charge of Ops and told them to release our funds. Received a check by Fedex the next day.

*The peeps in the bowels have no authority to over-ride internal policy, but the boss does not like to receive complaints.
Excellent idea! Couldn't hurt, and we have about 9 months before we are really in a squeeze financially so there's time to try this.
increment
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:20 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by increment »

JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:39 pm My husband is POA for his 96 year-old father who has mild dementia ...

We are Flagship customers with Vanguard, so we reached out to our representative (a new one we never dealt with before, but still assigned to us) and explained the situation. She said she would be our advocate and reach out to the proper people to see if they could provide this service. My husband would have to fly to Phoenix
Is this right? Wouldn't DWS want the father's signature to be guaranteed?
cas
Posts: 1053
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:41 am

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by cas »

Edit: whoops. Re-read initial post and it already says it is DWS *own form* that requires the medallion signature guarantee. Nevermind on suggestion below...

You may have already looked into this and know a good reason why it won't work in your specific situation, but ...

Does DWS have their *own form* for appointing an "authorized agent" or POA just for their accounts? Is FIL able to sign a filled-out form presented and explained to him with adequate understanding? (You said "mild dementia," but that can be different ability levels for different things in different people.)

I've found that financial institutions really want POA type abilities assigned via their *own form* and present many less hoops to jump through for their own form than for a general POA document. (Vanguard is the most rigorous one I've encountered so far, with their own internal "full authorized agent" form requiring a notarized signature with 2 external witnesses. Lesser levels of authorization for an agent didn't even require that. As I understand it, Vanguard won't even consider accepting a general POA document except for a limited time in cases of complete incapacitation.)

Of course, even if DWS does have an authorized agent form that can be activiated with a notarized signature, that still presents the hurdle of getting FIL and a notary at the same place, but ... I thought it would be good to at least check whether you had checked out whether DWS' own form for assigning POA/authorized agent/whatever-they-call-it would be more possible than the medallion signature guarantee.

(BTW, I'm not sure if it is your husband or your FIL who has to sign in front of the person giving the medallion signature guarantee. But ... if you enter "medallion signature guarantee" in the search box at the top of this page, there is lots of discussion. If I recall correctly, the general conclusion is that big banks often won't do it. Credit unions and small local banks are much more apt to do it. Might have the problem of the person needing to have an account at the credit union/small bank, though.)
Last edited by cas on Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Some updates based on questions/feedback:

1) FIL is mentally incapacitated and we have written doctor's statement indicating he is incapable of signing legal documents or handling his own financial affairs. We had to obtain this statement to satisfy at least one of the other banks. So, I would think it would be fraud if we tried to take FIL anywhere to sign anything. Plus he lives 2,000 miles away... and I don't think he would be physically/mentally capable of pulling this off.

2) There is already a Durable POA document in place that was drawn up by an attorney and legally executed in 2012. The problem is that DWS won't accept this without their form with the Gold Medallion signature guarantee -- so if my husband was trying to get them to accept a fraudulent POA some other entity or bank would take the liability, not DWS.

3) Looks like DWS is headquartered in Frankfurt, Germany and has some P.O. Box locations in Kansas City.

4) "Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process." FIL cannot access the account and neither can his son who is agent with full power of attorney. This is the catch 22 situation -- nobody can access this account but Medicaid won't give us a pass on this! In terms of taxes, DWS will ONLY accept this Gold Medallion-stamped form with POA attached for ONE TRANSACTION ONLY! So probably the right transaction is an IRA rollover to a financial institution that recognizes my husband as POA for his father.

5) "Just a thought - maybe it would be easier to transfer to TD Bank if they already accept your husbands POA." Brilliant idea! :idea: :idea: :idea: But let's substitute Vanguard. My husband has his own large accounts with Vanguard, and he has already accepted by Vanguard as his father's agent under the Durable POA for a small money market account. I recall that when we both did our transitions to Vanguard, we didn't even have to talk to the former company who held our accounts. We just worked with Vanguard! Maybe that will work to roll over his father's DWS account! Is it possible that my husband can just direct Vanguard to move this account? :shock:
increment
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:20 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by increment »

From their FAQ it sounds like DWS wants the agent to obtain a medallion guarantee each time the agent requests DWS to take some action (perhaps unless the actual owner has submitted DWS's own Durable POA paperwork). This may be another reason to try to transfer the account to another, more amenable company.
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 6730
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Nate79 »

Have you called around to ALL local banks and ask them if they would be willing to do a medallion guarantee? It is rare but you may just find one.
RetiredAL
Posts: 1179
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:09 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by RetiredAL »

HomeStretch wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:01 pm Is there a local office for Fidelity, Schwab or another brokerage firm near FIL that you and FIL can go to in person? If FIL transfers the IRA to the new brokerage, the receiving brokerage will be happy to provide the medallion guarantees necessary for the Transfer of Account and POA/Agent Authorization for you to handle the account at the new brokerage.

The other alternative would be to have an attorney draft the POA. Not sure whether DWS will accept it easily but the attorney could deal with them if not. If FIL can get the account transferred first, some brokerages like Fidelity will accept such a client POA if the POA is executed within 6-12 months and accompanied by a notarized form.

Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process.
I had issues last year with a brokerage house not accepting my POA to my Dad's IRA. I was told by the local Schwab office they could open and transfer the IRA based on the existing POA powers I held. My Dad improved, and I was able to take him to Schwab to sign everything. The IRA was moved to Schwab in 3-4 days. I suggest you call and talk with them both about your POA and their ability to transfer that particular IRA.

Do note, that Schwab's std POA form is stated as NOT DURABLE. If durable is needed, you have to submit a copy of the POA that authorizes durable so that their legal dept can review. This contrasts to Fidelity's std form which is selectable as to be durable.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Nate79 wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:22 pm Have you called around to ALL local banks and ask them if they would be willing to do a medallion guarantee? It is rare but you may just find one.
No, I have to admit I haven't done that. Extremely long shot they would offer to provide this apparently high-risk service to a non-customer if major banks won't do it for 20-year-plus customers with significant business relationship. :(
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 6730
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Nate79 »

JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:20 pm
Nate79 wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:22 pm Have you called around to ALL local banks and ask them if they would be willing to do a medallion guarantee? It is rare but you may just find one.
No, I have to admit I haven't done that. Extremely long shot they would offer to provide this apparently high-risk service to a non-customer if major banks won't do it for 20-year-plus customers with significant business relationship. :(

This issue has been posted many times on Bogleheads, it's not new. But often the solution was a local bank/credit union decided they would do it. Maybe you could offer to open an account there and move assets in to show some value to them.
eukonomos
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by eukonomos »

JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:17 pm ...
5) "Just a thought - maybe it would be easier to transfer to TD Bank if they already accept your husbands POA." Brilliant idea! :idea: :idea: :idea: But let's substitute Vanguard.
...
I suggested TD (Bank or Ameritrade) thinking it might help to be able to walk in to an office, but if you can get it done at Vanguard - great.
elvisimprsntr
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by elvisimprsntr »

I consolidated my parents accounts all with Fidelity some years ago. I filled out all the Fidelity forms, then when my sister was in town we all went to Fidelity Investiment Center (which provides gold medallion) for a signing party. Now my sister and I have full POA, check writing, trade authororization, etc. We also filed for POA with SS, Medicare, health insurance, life insurance, etc. I know it has made managing parents finances a breeze with everything under one roof. When my mother passed, it made distributing her trust simple.

Perhaps one option is to transfer the assets to a BnM institution like Fidelity to make it easier. I confirmed via Fidelity site you can initiate transfer from DWS through Fidelity. https://digital.fidelity.com/ftgw/digit ... of-assets/
Last edited by elvisimprsntr on Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Nutmeg
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:52 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Nutmeg »

If you can find a local bank or credit union for the signature guarantee, note that you will probably have to have an account with that financial institution for a minimum period of time (60 days was quoted to me) before the signature guarantee will be given.

A Wells Fargo branch representative once told me by phone the bank could not provide a signature guarantee for me despite the fact that I had had an account with the bank for many years. He gave a reason, but the reason made no sense to me (a retired lawyer), and I had no alternative place to obtain the guarantee. Therefore, I visited a different WF branch, where the signature guarantee was provided. Now, every time I need a signature guarantee for a POA, I make an appointment with the person who actually helped me. The ability to obtain a signature guarantee there is probably the only reason I am still with that bank.

I wonder: have RMDs been made from that IRA over the years, and are they still being made? I am asking because it seems that the existence of the IRA would have been discovered previously if the RMDs were being made as required.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Nutmeg wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:04 pm If you can find a local bank or credit union for the signature guarantee, note that you will probably have to have an account with that financial institution for a minimum period of time (60 days was quoted to me) before the signature guarantee will be given.

A Wells Fargo branch representative once told me by phone the bank could not provide a signature guarantee for me despite the fact that I had had an account with the bank for many years. He gave a reason, but the reason made no sense to me (a retired lawyer), and I had no alternative place to obtain the guarantee. Therefore, I visited a different WF branch, where the signature guarantee was provided. Now, every time I need a signature guarantee for a POA, I make an appointment with the person who actually helped me. The ability to obtain a signature guarantee there is probably the only reason I am still with that bank.

I wonder: have RMDs been made from that IRA over the years, and are they still being made? I am asking because it seems that the existence of the IRA would have been discovered previously if the RMDs were being made as required.
We tried two Wells Fargo branches, one where our accounts are held. We sat and listened as the private banking manager called corporate and explained the situation. No go. It is definitely not up to the local branch unless they make a mistake.

We discovered the existence of this and two other IRAs after three large deposits appeared on FIL's bank statement. There is an attorney who had held POA before my husband when elder brother renounced POA in favor of attorney and he had gotten his address on lots of things. Because the attorney was not mentioned in FIL's Durable Power of Attorney document, he was only able to gain access to funds in one account and that money ran out. My husband was notified that he had been named as secondary POA (total surprise), overdue nursing home bills were piling up, and accepted the responsibility. We've been figuring out messes ever since. So the attorney received the checks and deposited them. He had notified us of 5 accounts in 3 institutions, so these 3 new IRA accounts were unknown to us.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

eukonomos wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:20 pm
JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:17 pm ...
5) "Just a thought - maybe it would be easier to transfer to TD Bank if they already accept your husbands POA." Brilliant idea! :idea: :idea: :idea: But let's substitute Vanguard.
...
I suggested TD (Bank or Ameritrade) thinking it might help to be able to walk in to an office, but if you can get it done at Vanguard - great.
TD Bank has no branches within 1000 miles of our home, so not a great option. They have been very difficult to business with. We prefer Vanguard since we are Flagship customers there and they have already accepted my husband as POA for a small account FIL had there. Since they have done this, it should be no different than my FIL requesting transfer of the account himself. We'll call Vanguard tomorrow. We already have a request in for the Gold Medallion signature guarantee, but it would be better if we could just transfer the whole IRA to Vanguard. Fingers crossed!
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

elvisimprsntr wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:43 pm I consolidated my parents accounts all with Fidelity some years ago. I filled out all the Fidelity forms, then when my sister was in town we all went to Fidelity Investiment Center (which provides gold medallion) for a signing party. Now my sister and I have full POA, check writing, trade authororization, etc. We also filed for POA with SS, Medicare, health insurance, life insurance, etc. I know it has made managing parents finances a breeze with everything under one roof. When my mother passed, it made distributing her trust simple.

Perhaps one option is to transfer the assets to a BnM institution like Fidelity to make it easier. I confirmed via Fidelity site you can initiate transfer from DWS through Fidelity. https://digital.fidelity.com/ftgw/digit ... of-assets/
We're calling Vanguard in the morning to see if we can do this as we are Flagship customers and my husband already has POA approved there for a small money market account his father had. I am hoping Vanguard can initiate the transfer from their side!
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

increment wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:54 pm
JaneyLH wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:39 pm My husband is POA for his 96 year-old father who has mild dementia ...

We are Flagship customers with Vanguard, so we reached out to our representative (a new one we never dealt with before, but still assigned to us) and explained the situation. She said she would be our advocate and reach out to the proper people to see if they could provide this service. My husband would have to fly to Phoenix
Is this right? Wouldn't DWS want the father's signature to be guaranteed?
My father-in-law is incapacitated and unable to manage his financial affairs, so he cannot sign anything. We have a medical certification to this effect. That's why my husband is now his legal agent under the Durable Power of Attorney his father set up many years ago.
User avatar
celia
Posts: 11850
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by celia »

This might be off-topic, but if we’re talking about a Traditional IRA, how are the distributions being made? Maybe the amount withdrawn or frequency could be increased easier than getting a Medallion guarantee.

And if the assisted living is medically necessary (ie, you have it in writing from a doctor), then the withdrawals can be almost tax-free if you itemize and claim this as medical expenses. In other words, it would be a wash between this new income stream and the deduction.
Last edited by celia on Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
elvisimprsntr
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by elvisimprsntr »

JaneyLH wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:24 pm
We're calling Vanguard in the morning to see if we can do this as we are Flagship customers and my husband already has POA approved there for a small money market account his father had. I am hoping Vanguard can initiate the transfer from their side!
Sorry for your circumstances with both your FIL and with finances. GL getting FIL's coins away from the attorneys.
ballons
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ballons »

No one will give out gold medallion stamps besides the places where your POA holds accounts and has POA on file.
We found out recently about an IRA he holds with DWS (part of Deutsche Bank) worth about $100,000.

DWS is insisting on a Gold Medallion signature guarantee on their form to accept the POA documents.
1. File your POA paperwork with DWS certified/overnight. You do *not* need their form.
2. Wait for it to be accepted.
3. Conduct business as POA.

You could alternatively find a place where your POA is valid and initiate from there. YMMV.
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 10996
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ResearchMed »

ballons wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:46 pm No one will give out gold medallion stamps besides the places where your POA holds accounts and has POA on file.
We found out recently about an IRA he holds with DWS (part of Deutsche Bank) worth about $100,000.

DWS is insisting on a Gold Medallion signature guarantee on their form to accept the POA documents.
1. File your POA paperwork with DWS certified/overnight. You do *not* need their form.
2. Wait for it to be accepted.
3. Conduct business as POA.

You could alternatively find a place where your POA is valid and initiate from there. YMMV.
There may not be any legal requirement for "any" PoA but the institution may require the use of their own forms.

Until quite recently, Vanguard was like this, and that continued *after* Pennsylvania passed a law *requiring* vendors doing business in the state to accept ANY legally completed PoA form, including from out of state. However, until recently, Vanguard's explicit response to this was "too bad, we ONLY accept our forms". And for the 403b plan we have, that would not have allowed all of the same transactions as, say, DH could do on his own. First, their own full agent authorization would have needed to be completed within 30 days of use (sure, we'll know within 30 days of any sudden disabling event... not problem...!). Second, only one transaction could be completed per form; then another form would need to be used, and again, completed within 30 days of use.

Point is, a business *could* require specific forms in some cases.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

celia wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:37 pm This might be off-topic, but if we’re talking about a Traditional IRA, how are the distributions being made? Maybe the amount withdrawn or frequency could be increased easier than getting a Medallion guarantee.

And if the assisted living is medically necessary (ie, you have it in writing from a doctor), then the withdrawals can be almost tax-free if you itemize and claim this as medical expenses. In other words, it would be a wash between this new income stream and the deduction.
Apparently the annual distribution was set up originally by my father in law before he was incapacitated. I assume they will continue until the account is emptied. However, we will not be able to pay my FIL's bills with the distribution. His nursing home costs more than $15,000 a month so the value of this IRA will cover less than 7 month's expenses.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Second, only one transaction could be completed per form; then another form would need to be used, and again, completed within 30 days of use.

RM
[/quote]

This is exactly what the DWS process entails. Not in the spirit if what a POA is supposed to do.
increment
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:20 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by increment »

You said that Wells "will provide medallion guarantees for certain transactions". Would they provide one if you move the IRA to Wells (perhaps WellsTrade)? (Why you would want to keep the account at DWS if they won't modify their policies and you don't want to pursue legal action to force them?)
SpideyIndexer
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:13 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by SpideyIndexer »

I feel your pain. I have heard a similar statement from Wells Fargo: it seems their policy is to only provide a Medallion Signature stamp if it will bring in outside funds to them.

Do you have any funds at Fidelity? Fidelity provides Medallion Signatures. If not them, any other institution with local offices? There is no requirement for your FIL to be a customer.

Does your FIL have an account at Vanguard? If so, another option may be for you to become his agent at Vanguard. This is easily done by taking Vanguard's agent form and an external DPOA to a notary and mailing it. Once you become an agent, after-tax DWS funds can be moved in-kind to Vanguard. However you are dealing with an IRA. I don't know if an IRA rollover to Vanguard could be initiated by a Vanguard agent. Maybe someone else could comment or you could ask your flagship rep. I see you are already exploring a similar avenue. Good luck!!!!
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

increment wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:59 am You said that Wells "will provide medallion guarantees for certain transactions". Would they provide one if you move the IRA to Wells (perhaps WellsTrade)? (Why you would want to keep the account at DWS if they won't modify their policies and you don't want to pursue legal action to force them?)
We don't want to keep the account at DWS, we want to move it to Vanguard where all our other accounts, including one of FIL's, reside.
increment
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:20 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by increment »

JaneyLH wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:31 pm We don't want to keep the account at DWS, we want to move it to Vanguard where all our other accounts, including one of FIL's, reside.
Maybe you can move it to Wells (or anywhere else that will provide you with the medallion thing), and then transfer to Vanguard a few weeks later.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

SpideyIndexer wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:39 am I feel your pain. I have heard a similar statement from Wells Fargo: it seems their policy is to only provide a Medallion Signature stamp if it will bring in outside funds to them.

Do you have any funds at Fidelity? Fidelity provides Medallion Signatures. If not them, any other institution with local offices? There is no requirement for your FIL to be a customer.

Does your FIL have an account at Vanguard? If so, another option may be for you to become his agent at Vanguard. This is easily done by taking Vanguard's agent form and an external DPOA to a notary and mailing it. Once you become an agent, after-tax DWS funds can be moved in-kind to Vanguard. However you are dealing with an IRA. I don't know if an IRA rollover to Vanguard could be initiated by a Vanguard agent. Maybe someone else could comment or you could ask your flagship rep. I see you are already exploring a similar avenue. Good luck!!!!
Yes, FIL has an account at Vanguard and they accepted my husband as POA nearly a year ago. We spent an hour on the phone with Flagship Services and they say we have to get DWS to accept husband as POA or DWS will just reject the transaction request from Vanguard. So that's a dead end. And they aren't willing to do the Gold Medallion Stamp themselves without an escalation process, which we have initiated. This would require my husband to fly to Phoenix in order to execute the signature at the Scottsdale office.

We have also explored other financial institutions in the area but that is also a dead end.

The most promising option now is signaturemedallion.com , a company that provides this as an online service (they use a digital signature process) whereby they apply their stamp to a filled-out copy of the form DWS wants stamped without signing, they stamp it after using their process for identifying you, and mail it back to you so you can affix the original signature. Whew! It will cost $279 but will be totally worth it if this works! And, they guarantee to refund payment if the bank won't accept it for any reason. They use an attorney who is a "member in good standing of the Securities Transfer Agent Medallion Program ("STAMP"). There is a second online company we found but they also refused to do a medallion signature guarantee for a POA. We have submitted all the paperwork to them and should hear back tomorrow.

From this lesson learned, we intend to contact all the financial institutions that hold our own accounts and execute all the paperwork now that will ensure the POAs are accepted with THEIR FORMS, according to THEIR PROCESS, so that later down the line if and when one of us is in a situation that will require the other of us to request the ability to act as agent these problems won't occur. I am surprised that any attorney who prepares a Durable Power of Attorney document for a client would fail to make this suggestion as apparently it is well known that banks/financial institutions frequently refuse to recognize valid POA documents.
ballons
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ballons »

JaneyLH wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:11 pm From this lesson learned, we intend to contact all the financial institutions that hold our own accounts and execute all the paperwork now that will ensure the POAs are accepted with THEIR FORMS, according to THEIR PROCESS, so that later down the line if and when one of us is in a situation that will require the other of us to request the ability to act as agent these problems won't occur. I am surprised that any attorney who prepares a Durable Power of Attorney document for a client would fail to make this suggestion as apparently it is well known that banks/financial institutions frequently refuse to recognize valid POA documents.
They aren't rejecting it, but making you jump through extra hoops to reduce their liability.

If you require your own POA to become valid, the people you name could face the same medallion situation. Whomever you name, make sure your bank/CU has a location near them or you need to open up an account to fix that.
davewi
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by davewi »

I had similar headaches with signature guarantees as executor my late mother's estate. Having failed to find any local providers of signature guarantees, I had a very positive experience with esignatureguarantee.com. They were expensive (a few hundred bucks per guarantee) but provided timely service with no hassles.
HomeStretch
Posts: 5391
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by HomeStretch »

If you use signaturemedallion.com, please consider updating your post about your experience as it is an interesting solution to an issue (the inability to obtain medallion guarantees) that often gets posted here.

As far as your takeaway about using each financial institutions’ POA or Agent Authorization (AA) form, we decided to do the same. With the exception of Fidelity which accepted our attorney-drafted DPOAs with a cover form notarized by our attorney. At Fidelity, the DPOA on file is not limited to a one-time use. Our attorney advised that we use Vanguard’s AA form after Vanguard refused to accept our DPOAs.

I do need to ask our attorney whether the DPOAs can go “stale” and, if so, how often they need to be updated.
GeoffD
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by GeoffD »

RetiredAL wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:50 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:01 pm Is there a local office for Fidelity, Schwab or another brokerage firm near FIL that you and FIL can go to in person? If FIL transfers the IRA to the new brokerage, the receiving brokerage will be happy to provide the medallion guarantees necessary for the Transfer of Account and POA/Agent Authorization for you to handle the account at the new brokerage.

The other alternative would be to have an attorney draft the POA. Not sure whether DWS will accept it easily but the attorney could deal with them if not. If FIL can get the account transferred first, some brokerages like Fidelity will accept such a client POA if the POA is executed within 6-12 months and accompanied by a notarized form.

Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process.
I had issues last year with a brokerage house not accepting my POA to my Dad's IRA. I was told by the local Schwab office they could open and transfer the IRA based on the existing POA powers I held. My Dad improved, and I was able to take him to Schwab to sign everything. The IRA was moved to Schwab in 3-4 days. I suggest you call and talk with them both about your POA and their ability to transfer that particular IRA.

Do note, that Schwab's std POA form is stated as NOT DURABLE. If durable is needed, you have to submit a copy of the POA that authorizes durable so that their legal dept can review. This contrasts to Fidelity's std form which is selectable as to be durable.
That’s what I would do. Assisted living and mild dementia, move the IRA to any financial institution with a nearby brick & mortar presence where he can physically sign the documents. You want to do it now while it’s possible.
ballons
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ballons »

HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:38 pm As far as your takeaway about using each financial institutions’ POA or Agent Authorization (AA) form, we decided to do the same. With the exception of Fidelity which accepted our attorney-drafted DPOAs with a cover form notarized by our attorney. At Fidelity, the DPOA on file is not limited to a one-time use. Our attorney advised that we use Vanguard’s AA form after Vanguard refused to accept our DPOAs.

I do need to ask our attorney whether the DPOAs can go “stale” and, if so, how often they need to be updated.
Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.

Having certified copies of POA were almost magical in their effectiveness and I highly recommend it.
HomeStretch
Posts: 5391
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by HomeStretch »

ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:23 pm Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.
In my state there is no requirement to file a durable power-of-attorney with any court. It is effective as soon as it is properly executed.
Broken Man 1999
Posts: 5611
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am
Location: West coast of Florida, inland on high ground!

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

FWIW, Vanguard will accept an "outside POA" ONE time, or so I was told about a year ago. After a transaction is done, another POA would be required for subsequent activities.

Instead, I am just going to set up my oldest daughter with agent status for our accounts at Vanguard, so the POA won't be needed. Much easier.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

davewi wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:18 pm I had similar headaches with signature guarantees as executor my late mother's estate. Having failed to find any local providers of signature guarantees, I had a very positive experience with esignatureguarantee.com. They were expensive (a few hundred bucks per guarantee) but provided timely service with no hassles.
esignatureguarantee.com would not get involved with a POA matter. Signaturemedallion.com will.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:50 pm FWIW, Vanguard will accept an "outside POA" ONE time, or so I was told about a year ago. After a transaction is done, another POA would be required for subsequent activities.

Instead, I am just going to set up my oldest daughter with agent status for our accounts at Vanguard, so the POA won't be needed. Much easier.

Broken Man 1999
My husband was accepted as POA for his father's Vanguard account without limitation on the number of transactions. He can do anything his father could have done. Vanguard calls an agent under a Durable POA "authorized agent".
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

GeoffD wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:06 pm
RetiredAL wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:50 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:01 pm Is there a local office for Fidelity, Schwab or another brokerage firm near FIL that you and FIL can go to in person? If FIL transfers the IRA to the new brokerage, the receiving brokerage will be happy to provide the medallion guarantees necessary for the Transfer of Account and POA/Agent Authorization for you to handle the account at the new brokerage.

The other alternative would be to have an attorney draft the POA. Not sure whether DWS will accept it easily but the attorney could deal with them if not. If FIL can get the account transferred first, some brokerages like Fidelity will accept such a client POA if the POA is executed within 6-12 months and accompanied by a notarized form.

Another option would be to set up online access if possible and take a full distribution of the account with FIL at the computer with you. Not ideal perhaps from a tax perspective but worth it for the future Medicaid eligibility process.
I had issues last year with a brokerage house not accepting my POA to my Dad's IRA. I was told by the local Schwab office they could open and transfer the IRA based on the existing POA powers I held. My Dad improved, and I was able to take him to Schwab to sign everything. The IRA was moved to Schwab in 3-4 days. I suggest you call and talk with them both about your POA and their ability to transfer that particular IRA.

Do note, that Schwab's std POA form is stated as NOT DURABLE. If durable is needed, you have to submit a copy of the POA that authorizes durable so that their legal dept can review. This contrasts to Fidelity's std form which is selectable as to be durable.
That’s what I would do. Assisted living and mild dementia, move the IRA to any financial institution with a nearby brick & mortar presence where he can physically sign the documents. You want to do it now while it’s possible.
Not possible. FIL has been certified incapacitated to execute verbal or written legal or financial instructions.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:35 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:23 pm Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.
In my state there is no requirement to file a durable power-of-attorney with any court. It is effective as soon as it is properly executed.
Same thing in FIL's state -- no requirement to file DPOA with any court. In fact, there is concern that filing these documents would make them public and perhaps make the person a target for unscrupulous persons.
ballons
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ballons »

HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:35 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:23 pm Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.
In my state there is no requirement to file a durable power-of-attorney with any court. It is effective as soon as it is properly executed.
I was responding to your question about a POA going "stale." You could keep the date current by grabbing a certified court copy as needed and also give whomever you are dealing with a public record they could verify as well.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:38 pm If you use signaturemedallion.com, please consider updating your post about your experience as it is an interesting solution to an issue (the inability to obtain medallion guarantees) that often gets posted here.
Yes, we have initiated the process. Will definitely report back.
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

We input the request today with signaturemedallion.com. We were hoping this obstacle would be the last thing to overcome. Not so.

Latest twist: DWS told us today that they will not process the transfer if it is initiated by Vanguard. We have to provide all the instructions to DWS that are needed for them to get the funds to Vanguard. DWS does not have a form for this, nor would the customer service person tell us exactly what information they need. We called Vanguard and they said we would have to try again to get the information from DWS as they (Vanguard) don't know what DWS needs and in 99% of the cases they initiate the transfer with information we supply on the Vanguard transfer form.

Our plan is to draft a letter to DWS and include all the information that Vanguard asks for on their transfer form. This would identify the existing rollover IRA account at DWS and the new rollover IRA account at Vanguard, as well as the request for a transfer in kind. We will call DWS and read the letter to them and ask if the information is sufficient. Maybe that will work... :?
ballons
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by ballons »

JaneyLH wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:04 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:35 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:23 pm Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.
In my state there is no requirement to file a durable power-of-attorney with any court. It is effective as soon as it is properly executed.
Same thing in FIL's state -- no requirement to file DPOA with any court. In fact, there is concern that filing these documents would make them public and perhaps make the person a target for unscrupulous persons.
A target for what? If they have vast wealth, estate planning and trusts should already protect whatever assets you are worrying about. If the person is in a retirement home/skilled nursing facility, they should have a copy of the POA already whether it is in effect yet or not. I would say not filing makes them more more of a target for "unscrupulous persons."
User avatar
Topic Author
JaneyLH
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Catch 22 with Gold Medallion Requirement for Exercising POA for Father

Post by JaneyLH »

ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:26 pm
JaneyLH wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:04 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:35 pm
ballons wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:23 pm Isn't that the point of filing the POA with the court? I would have thought the lawyer would do that for you after creating it.
In my state there is no requirement to file a durable power-of-attorney with any court. It is effective as soon as it is properly executed.
Same thing in FIL's state -- no requirement to file DPOA with any court. In fact, there is concern that filing these documents would make them public and perhaps make the person a target for unscrupulous persons.
A target for what? If they have vast wealth, estate planning and trusts should already protect whatever assets you are worrying about. If the person is in a retirement home/skilled nursing facility, they should have a copy of the POA already whether it is in effect yet or not. I would say not filing makes them more more of a target for "unscrupulous persons."
In my research I found information about Pennsylvania legislation proposed to address the problem POAs. This is from a state committee report on Elder Abuse:

"The Committee discussed a POA registry as a possibility for deterring and preventing abuse through a POA. It was suggested that POAs could be registered either statewide or in county offices, thereby providing a mechanism to ensure they are legitimate. However, the Committee members expressed several concerns over a registry. First, if POAs were filed as part of a county or statewide registry, it could expose elders to “scammers,” as their assets and otherwise private affairs would become a matter of public record."

Whether that makes sense or not, there is no current process of POA registration in Pennsylvania.
Post Reply