Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

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whunter3333
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Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by whunter3333 »

Asking for a friend.....I am 23 years old and just completed the second year of dental school. Would like to become an oral surgeon, (scored well enough on the Board exams -98th percentile- and attend a very highly rated dental school; so it is currently very likely to happen. What are your thoughts about insurance in case of disability? Thanks for sharing your ideas.
123
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by 123 »

A very good idea for self-employed medical professionals.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
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simplesimon
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by simplesimon »

Get it, but do your homework on what is considered a good disability insurance plan. I suggest White Coat Investor's blog series.
decapod10
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by decapod10 »

Yes, for sure look into getting personal disability insurance. You will probably want what's called "own occupation" disability insurance, which means that you are considered when you can't do your specific job, rather than being totally disabled.

Sometimes insurance companies will have special offers for those who are still in training or still in school (no physical, group rates, etc), although they may or may not be a good deal, it's something to look into also.
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:02 pm Asking for a friend.....I am 23 years old and just completed the second year of dental school. Would like to become an oral surgeon, (scored well enough on the Board exams -98th percentile- and attend a very highly rated dental school; so it is currently very likely to happen. What are your thoughts about insurance in case of disability? Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Absolutely something you should have, especially in an occupation where it is so easy to become disabled from your specific job. The group disability insurance provided by an employer will not be anywhere near as comprehensive as purchasing your own individual disability insurance policy.
Topic Author
whunter3333
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by whunter3333 »

BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:36 pm
whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:02 pm Asking for a friend.....I am 23 years old and just completed the second year of dental school. Would like to become an oral surgeon, (scored well enough on the Board exams -98th percentile- and attend a very highly rated dental school; so it is currently very likely to happen. What are your thoughts about insurance in case of disability? Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Absolutely something you should have, especially in an occupation where it is so easy to become disabled from your specific job. The group disability insurance provided by an employer will not be anywhere near as comprehensive as purchasing your own individual disability insurance policy.
Do you have a preferred company?
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:42 pm
BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:36 pm
whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:02 pm Asking for a friend.....I am 23 years old and just completed the second year of dental school. Would like to become an oral surgeon, (scored well enough on the Board exams -98th percentile- and attend a very highly rated dental school; so it is currently very likely to happen. What are your thoughts about insurance in case of disability? Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Absolutely something you should have, especially in an occupation where it is so easy to become disabled from your specific job. The group disability insurance provided by an employer will not be anywhere near as comprehensive as purchasing your own individual disability insurance policy.
Do you have a preferred company?
Guardian has the best disability insurance in the industry, but I'd still suggest getting quotes from all of the "top tier" disability insurers (Guardian, Principal, Standard, Ohio National, Ameritas, Mass Mutual). Some may have discounts available that others won't, the occupation class can vary between companies which determines the pricing, etc. If you simply want the best coverage regardless of cost, then I'd choose Guardian.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by unclescrooge »

BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:55 pm
whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:42 pm
BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:36 pm
whunter3333 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:02 pm Asking for a friend.....I am 23 years old and just completed the second year of dental school. Would like to become an oral surgeon, (scored well enough on the Board exams -98th percentile- and attend a very highly rated dental school; so it is currently very likely to happen. What are your thoughts about insurance in case of disability? Thanks for sharing your ideas.
Absolutely something you should have, especially in an occupation where it is so easy to become disabled from your specific job. The group disability insurance provided by an employer will not be anywhere near as comprehensive as purchasing your own individual disability insurance policy.
Do you have a preferred company?
Guardian has the best disability insurance in the industry, but I'd still suggest getting quotes from all of the "top tier" disability insurers (Guardian, Principal, Standard, Ohio National, Ameritas, Mass Mutual). Some may have discounts available that others won't, the occupation class can vary between companies which determines the pricing, etc. If you simply want the best coverage regardless of cost, then I'd choose Guardian.
Often, a particular agent has a large number of clients at your college. He will have access to discounted volume rates from a specific company. See if you can track him down.
FrugalConservative
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by FrugalConservative »

Make sure it's a True Occupation policy. All other policies arent worth the paper they are printed on.
DesertGator
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by DesertGator »

Get it. If you are an ADA member, include their national plan and your state component's plan (if any) in your search and comparison. Definitely get Own Occupation (preferably to age 65, not just 5 years as some policies have). Probably worth getting residual disability and future increase options, but not as confident about COLA which is a bet for/against inflation and can approx. double the cost of the policy.
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

FrugalConservative wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:15 pm Make sure it's a True Occupation policy. All other policies arent worth the paper they are printed on.
I wouldn’t say that, but it is certainly the most important part of the policy.
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

DesertGator wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:14 pm Get it. If you are an ADA member, include their national plan and your state component's plan (if any) in your search and comparison. Definitely get Own Occupation (preferably to age 65, not just 5 years as some policies have). Probably worth getting residual disability and future increase options, but not as confident about COLA which is a bet for/against inflation and can approx. double the cost of the policy.
COLA riders are nowhere near close to doubling the price of a policy. The ADA policy pales in comparison to an individual policy and still has the negatives that all association plans do.
DustyDebris
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by DustyDebris »

FrugalConservative wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:15 pm Make sure it's a True Occupation policy. All other policies arent worth the paper they are printed on.
My first wife, an anesthesiologist, had True Occupation, and has had to use it. She still gets it even though she got board certified as a psychiatrist.

One thing to check on, because she was a partner in a group we ran the premiums through the partnership corp in order to pay with pre-tax dollars. We were told that because of that the payments to her were taxable and if we had paid directly they would have been untaxed. Worth looking into, note I am not stating this a fact.
decapod10
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by decapod10 »

DustyDebris wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:03 pm
FrugalConservative wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:15 pm Make sure it's a True Occupation policy. All other policies arent worth the paper they are printed on.
My first wife, an anesthesiologist, had True Occupation, and has had to use it. She still gets it even though she got board certified as a psychiatrist.

One thing to check on, because she was a partner in a group we ran the premiums through the partnership corp in order to pay with pre-tax dollars. We were told that because of that the payments to her were taxable and if we had paid directly they would have been untaxed. Worth looking into, note I am not stating this a fact.
I believe that is correct. If you pay with pretax dollars, then the benefits are taxable. If you pay with post-tax dollars, then the benefits are tax free.
toofache32
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by toofache32 »

Specialty is irrelevant. Get disability insurance. "Own occupation" wording varies. Research this to get a good one and don't believe anything the insurance agent tells you. They all tell you they have the best policies.
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

toofache32 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:18 pm Specialty is irrelevant. Get disability insurance. "Own occupation" wording varies. Research this to get a good one and don't believe anything the insurance agent tells you. They all tell you they have the best policies.
Maybe find an insurance agent that actually knows what they’re talking about. It’s easy to tell an expert from someone that doesn’t have a clue what they’re doing just based on their product knowledge. There’s a difference between a sales job and educating the client to help them choose the right policy.

Most insurance agents don’t know much about DI because it’s such a niche business and they don’t sell it often enough to care. The ones that specialize in DI usually really know their stuff. A good agent will quote 4-5 companies and point out the differences between the policies.

Avoid agents that only sell for one company. Use an independent broker.
bsteiner
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by bsteiner »

DesertGator wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:14 pm Get it. If you are an ADA member, include their national plan and your state component's plan (if any) in your search and comparison. Definitely get Own Occupation (preferably to age 65, not just 5 years as some policies have). Probably worth getting residual disability and future increase options, but not as confident about COLA which is a bet for/against inflation and can approx. double the cost of the policy.
Here are the rates for the ADA: https://www.insurance.ada.org/Upload/Ar ... -Males.pdf (male); https://www.insurance.ada.org/Upload/Ar ... emales.pdf (female). Note that the maximum coverage is $15,000 a month.

The NY State Bar Association has something similar for lawyers: https://www.usiaffinity.com/content/dow ... RO_PGS.pdf. (Lawyers in other states may join the NY State Bar Association.)
JonnyB
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by JonnyB »

This seems to be one of those insurance products that are sold, not bought.

What percentage of physicians buy this? Why is medicine the only major profession that buys this? Physicians seem to be a target rich environment for insurance sales.
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simplesimon
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by simplesimon »

JonnyB wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:03 pm This seems to be one of those insurance products that are sold, not bought.

What percentage of physicians buy this? Why is medicine the only major profession that buys this? Physicians seem to be a target rich environment for insurance sales.
It's highly recommended by many Bogleheads to get a good disability insurance policy. It's much more expensive than term life insurance because the chances of claiming disability are much higher than chances of dying.

I'm not a doctor but I think doctors focus on it because medicine these days is so specialized. If you are a surgeon and can't be a surgeon anymore, it's difficult to be a different type of doctor and make the same amount of money.

For non-doctors (but doctors too) check out some of the stories in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68489
nydoc
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by nydoc »

If you have sufficient assets to live up on, you dont need any of these things. Until then you should have it. I have own occupation (defined as surgeon doing surgeries in operating room) policy which will pay out 15K per month. I dont need more. In fact, as our assets grow, will bring down the payout amount and premium and eventually will drop it.
toofache32
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by toofache32 »

simplesimon wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:37 am
JonnyB wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:03 pm This seems to be one of those insurance products that are sold, not bought.

What percentage of physicians buy this? Why is medicine the only major profession that buys this? Physicians seem to be a target rich environment for insurance sales.
I'm not a doctor but I think doctors focus on it because medicine these days is so specialized. If you are a surgeon and can't be a surgeon anymore, it's difficult to be a different type of doctor and make the same amount of money.
The issue is that most physicians have huge negative net worth due to loans which can go over half a million dollars in some scenarios. Combine this with the inability for most of them to payback the loans any other way, and disability insurance can be good.

When I was in med school, there was a surgery resident in his last year of training after 4 years of med school and 7 years of residency. He was diagnosed suddenly with multiple sclerosis.
SpaghettiMonster
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by SpaghettiMonster »

I wish I had gotten a policy sooner when I was healthier. I was diagnosed with a disorder at the end of residency that required surgery. I did not get disability insurance until I started private practice. Now my condition is a pre-existing condition and if I were to be unable to work because of if at a later date, I don't think I'd be covered.
JonnyB
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by JonnyB »

toofache32 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:06 am The issue is that most physicians have huge negative net worth due to loans which can go over half a million dollars in some scenarios. Combine this with the inability for most of them to payback the loans any other way, and disability insurance can be good.
You hear this a lot but it doesn't seem to be backed up by the facts from the insurance industry.

Physicians can purchase stand alone student loan insurance much more cheaply, but only a tiny percentage do so. Instead they opt for the more expensive full disability coverage.

And physicians can include a student loan rider in their disability insurance, but only something like 2% do so.

And physicians can purchase disability insurance for 10 years, 15 years or to age 65. Even though most physicians pay off their student loans in the first few years of practice, almost 70% opt for the age 65 policy long after student loans are paid off.

So it would seem not to be the case that student loans are the primary motivating factor in the purchase of disability insurance.
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climber2020
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by climber2020 »

JonnyB wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:03 pm This seems to be one of those insurance products that are sold, not bought.

What percentage of physicians buy this? Why is medicine the only major profession that buys this? Physicians seem to be a target rich environment for insurance sales.
Nearly everyone I know in my specialty has an own occupation disability policy. It's essential, and most of us actively seek this out when we're still in training. Much more important for surgeons than for doctors who aren't as dependent on their hands.
toofache32
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by toofache32 »

JonnyB wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:27 pm
toofache32 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:06 am The issue is that most physicians have huge negative net worth due to loans which can go over half a million dollars in some scenarios. Combine this with the inability for most of them to payback the loans any other way, and disability insurance can be good.
You hear this a lot but it doesn't seem to be backed up by the facts from the insurance industry.

Physicians can purchase stand alone student loan insurance much more cheaply, but only a tiny percentage do so. Instead they opt for the more expensive full disability coverage.

And physicians can include a student loan rider in their disability insurance, but only something like 2% do so.

And physicians can purchase disability insurance for 10 years, 15 years or to age 65. Even though most physicians pay off their student loans in the first few years of practice, almost 70% opt for the age 65 policy long after student loans are paid off.

So it would seem not to be the case that student loans are the primary motivating factor in the purchase of disability insurance.
Interesting info about student loan insurance. I didn't know that existed. Disability insurance is more expensive, but doesn't it also pay more?
I have 3 disability policies and the coverage adds up to maybe 60% of my income and goes until I am 65 although I will cancel it when I am "financially independent." I pay the premiums with after tax dollars.
DesertGator
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by DesertGator »

BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:34 pm
COLA riders are nowhere near close to doubling the price of a policy. The ADA policy pales in comparison to an individual policy and still has the negatives that all association plans do.
You're right, nowhere near close to doubling the price of a policy:

Your age: 40
Your gender: Female
Amount of Member coverage: $10,000
Waiting Period: 60 days
Residual Plus Option: No
Future Increase Option: No
Cost of Living Adjustment Option: Yes

Semi-annual premium:
Disability income protection $1,672.27
COLA: $1,076.35


(Quoted today at https://www.insurance.ada.org/disabilit ... quote.aspx)
BruDude
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by BruDude »

DesertGator wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:07 pm
BruDude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:34 pm
COLA riders are nowhere near close to doubling the price of a policy. The ADA policy pales in comparison to an individual policy and still has the negatives that all association plans do.
You're right, nowhere near close to doubling the price of a policy:

Your age: 40
Your gender: Female
Amount of Member coverage: $10,000
Waiting Period: 60 days
Residual Plus Option: No
Future Increase Option: No
Cost of Living Adjustment Option: Yes

Semi-annual premium:
Disability income protection $1,672.27
COLA: $1,076.35


(Quoted today at https://www.insurance.ada.org/disabilit ... quote.aspx)
That's an association plan, not an individual DI policy. Example from a recent quote I ran for an individual Guardian DI policy for a 32 year old male ER doc:

$13,380/month benefit
Age-65 benefit period
90-day elimination period
Enhanced Partial Disability rider
3% COLA rider


Base policy premium = $473.55/month
Enhanced Disability rider = $82.60/month
3% COLA rider = $91.65/month

$91.60 / $473.55 = 19% of base premium cost
dardeninvestor
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by dardeninvestor »

JonnyB wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:27 pm
toofache32 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:06 am The issue is that most physicians have huge negative net worth due to loans which can go over half a million dollars in some scenarios. Combine this with the inability for most of them to payback the loans any other way, and disability insurance can be good.
You hear this a lot but it doesn't seem to be backed up by the facts from the insurance industry.

Physicians can purchase stand alone student loan insurance much more cheaply, but only a tiny percentage do so. Instead they opt for the more expensive full disability coverage.

And physicians can include a student loan rider in their disability insurance, but only something like 2% do so.

And physicians can purchase disability insurance for 10 years, 15 years or to age 65. Even though most physicians pay off their student loans in the first few years of practice, almost 70% opt for the age 65 policy long after student loans are paid off.

So it would seem not to be the case that student loans are the primary motivating factor in the purchase of disability insurance.
I would argue quite strongly it should be bought NOT sold.

Especially for a surgeon, it would be totally insane not to have an individual disability policy. It is simply a cost of doing business. There is no disputing this.

You should max out what is allowed by the company, as you cannot/should not rely on whatever hospital system, practice, or University group coverage they have if you want to keep your options open.

That is sound financial sense. Life changes. Interests change. Circumstances change. It is expensive but necessary.
Carguy85
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Re: Personal disability insurance for dentists and surgeons

Post by Carguy85 »

I started with Principle and some years later switched to ADA (great west) just to consolidate disability and term life. They seemed very competitive if not slightly cheaper...good luck with school! Don’t be like a lot of ur classmates start and off right by paying cash for everything except maybe a 15 year 20% down mortgage...you will thank yourself sooner than you know.
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