Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

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teelainen
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Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by teelainen » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm

My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Sandtrap » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:28 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
1
Military
Federal
State
City and County

Check each depending on the position.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by nguy44 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:41 pm

IMHO the questions have such varied answers and/or change so quickly that it would be a good learning exercise for the young job seeker to do the research themselves ( change that "looking for a job soon" to "looking for a job now" :happy ), as they can get much of that information via web searches and going to company websites, and attending job fairs. Those questions are a great start for them to do their own research.

As the previous post mentioned, military and federal state/local/government entities are your best chance.

Other areas (Not specific companies) where the odds of a pension are higher than normal are utilities, insurance, unionized jobs.

The only big corporations I can think of off the top of my head are Coca-Cola and Exxon. I don't believe any of the IT, social media, or cloud focused companies (which are the fastest growing in the current economy) offer them, but I could be wrong, that is why current research is important.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by cheese_breath » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:42 pm

Whether a company offers pensions now is irrelevant. The real question is whether it will continue to do so throughout your career until you're ready to retire. Many that used to provide pensions don't anymore. Some just froze them. Others converted them into 401Ks on terms less favorable to the employees than the pension would have been.
Last edited by cheese_breath on Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by jyoung » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:44 pm

Around here (Houston, TX) I would say:

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
Besides gov, most of the larger integrated energy companies in the area do.
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
Where I am it is: 4 years to vest in pension and 15yr/age 55 to get the higher "retiree" payout. I assume that is fairly standard across the industry.
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
Paycheck may be slightly lower because the pension is part of the total compensation calculation, this seems to be something many employees cannot wrap their minds around. These are *very* large corporations so the usual bureaucratic downsides some people point out apply.
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
Just realize that some people may not stay long enough for the potential pension payout to compensate for the lower wage (wage could be higher though who knows?). Of course the risk that the pension may not be there forever is real, so don't stop saving for retirement on your own. Then the usual mega corp stuff.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 pm

Bear in mind that pensions are at the risk of the company. My prior employer froze pension benefits, for example. My current employer offers a 401(k) plan.

Consider that a pension only pays out if you are retirement age. My prior employer did not pay out anything unless you hit 55 years of age. The payout was at a reduced scale and only went to 100% at 65 years old.

Also, what happens if your nephew resigns before retirement age? Considering he's just out of school, there's a near zero chance he'll stay with this company for 35+ years.

I strongly recommend he interview a company for the usual things - it's something he'd like to do, decent starting salary, decent benefits. Having a pension is a detail in the benefits package. All he really needs is a 401(k).

Your job is to teach him how to save for investing. :) Send him this link to get the conversation started: If You Can: How Millennials Can Get Rich Slowly
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by greg24 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 pm

This is a 3rd-hand information request.

There is about a 1% chance that the job seeker will use the information posted in this thread to pursue a job with a company just because it has a pension.

And a 0.1% chance they'll land a job at one of the mentioned companies.

And a 0.01% chance they'll stay long enough to vest.
Last edited by greg24 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by rich126 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 pm

This is largely answered by searching on the Internet. As of ~2 years ago, companies such as Coke & JPMorgan. https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career ... ions.html/

I would caution anyone from starting at a company just because they have a pension. As many can tell you, a large number of companies had pensions 10, 20, 30 years ago that did away with them and/or severely reduced what an employee expected to get from them.

Companies like to "freeze" them and either replace it with a lower payout or just eliminate future earnings on them. A pension is of value because it is based on years of service AND some kind of average of your top "x" years of salary. If a company caps that to what you are earning in your 30s, the value is greatly diminished because you would have likely doubled your salary in the next few decades until you retire.

As an example:
35 years, 1% per year, high 3 year salary of $150K gives you $52,500 per year in retirement (35% of $150K).
If they stopped it at 20 years, not only would you only get 20%, but maybe your salary at that time was only $100K, so now your pension is 20K.

I've worked at companies that did that and long time employees were not happy.

Government jobs may be the only ones that keep offering them and I wonder about the longevity of them. I do recall about 20 years ago working at a contractor and this older guy was saying "I should have listened to my father and got the post office job. I would have been retired by now". So yeah, having a good pension is a huge plus, but there is no guarantee of them staying around.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by oilrig » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:56 pm

jyoung wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:44 pm
Around here (Houston, TX) I would say:

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
Besides gov, most of the larger integrated energy companies in the area do.
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
Where I am it is: 4 years to vest in pension and 15yr/age 55 to get the higher "retiree" payout. I assume that is fairly standard across the industry.
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
Paycheck may be slightly lower because the pension is part of the total compensation calculation, this seems to be something many employees cannot wrap their minds around. These are *very* large corporations so the usual bureaucratic downsides some people point out apply.
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
Just realize that some people may not stay long enough for the potential pension payout to compensate for the lower wage (wage could be higher though who knows?). Of course the risk that the pension may not be there forever is real, so don't stop saving for retirement on your own. Then the usual mega corp stuff.

Just to chime in, all of the oil and gas majors offer pensions: Chevron, BP, Shell, Exxon, Saudi Aramco (Technically not a major). I hear Aramco's pension is amazing. I worked for a mid size oil and gas operator and my old boss retired with a $100k/year pension for life, and he had another million+ in the 401k.

From personal experience, while working for a company that offered a nice pension was great, I would rather have no pension at all and like the job and get paid well. The company I work for now offers no pension, but pays me well and I am able to save a ton for retirement. Moral of the story is dont focus too much on the pension aspect, focus on the job itself and if you will like it or not (and get paid well).

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Tamarind » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm

University systems, both public and private, at least in my state, commonly offer pensions to non-exempt employees. Typically one must stay at least 5 years to vest at all. 20 years is about the minimum IMO to get a respectable amount.

Another thing your sister may be missing, however, is how badly underfunded many pensions are. A lot more of them seem likely to go bust or convert to cash balance plans over the next couple of decades. My mother worked 30 years at MegaCorp. 20 years in they forcibly converted her pension to a defined contribution plan. Unfortunately they calculated and invested it very conservatively so she lost out on a lot of growth before they handed her the lump sum.

If your nephew is able to save 15-20% of his gross pay, starting from day 1, and invest it sensibly, he will not need a pension to have a secure retirement.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by DesertDiva » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Tamarind wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm
If your nephew is able to save 15-20% of his gross pay, starting from day 1, and invest it sensibly, he will not need a pension to have a secure retirement.
+1. It's better to focus on career growth and creation/execution of an IPS.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Watty » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:14 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
Almost few non-government pensions are adjusted for inflation.

One other downside with a traditional defined benefit pension is that the way the math works a lot of the value of the pension accrues in the last ten years or so that you work for the company. If you work for the same company for 30 years you might retire with an ample pension if you retire at 65. If you only work for them for 20 years and leave the job when you are 55 the pension you get may be a worth a small fraction of what it would have been worth if you had worked for them for another 10 years. This also has the side effect of;

1) Companies just "happen" to layoff older workers so they cannot get the last ten years of work in.

2) Companies know that you have "golden handcuffs" in the form of the pension so you may get meager raises and may have excessive job demands late in your career. The company knows that you are unlikely to leave because you would lose a lot of your pension, and if you do leave then the company wins because they save a lot of pension costs.

3) Companies have a lot of incentive to not hire older workers because hiring a 55+ year old employee would quickly accumulate a lot of pension costs.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by simplesimon » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:29 pm

I work for a bank that still offers a pension. I just joined and was surprised that they did. It was not the reason I joined. It vests after 5 years. After 10 years, the multiplier increases.

Downsides have been mentioned: the company itself or the pension may not be around in 30-40 years, if one has worked there for a while you may feel trapped via the golden handcuffs. If it works out then yes, you have a nice annuity.

As a young person, if he works for a company that offers a match of say 6%+ then its just as good as a pension in those early years (the math changes as one gets older). Working at the same company for over a decade he will likely not be paid a market salary unless he jumps and by then the jumps won't make up for the loss of pension and he may be stuck in a job he doesn't like (golden handcuffs again). If he's a high performer and makes a jump every 3-5 years early on, he should get compensated much more than if he stayed with the same company even with the pension (again this is as a younger employee. Pensions get ridiculously expensive for companies the closer to retirement age the employee is.)

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Hamberders » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:36 pm

Government and union trade jobs have a high percentage of employees who are covered by defined benefit pension plans.

100% vesting is typically given in five years.

Generally speaking, current defined benefit pension plans are not as generous as they were when your sister accrued her benefits. The inflated stock markets of the 80s and 90s resulted in overfunded plans and generous benefits that have been largely curtailed after the 2000-2002 and 2008 market bubble bursts.

Another major downside is lack of portability of the benefit between employers – unless the jobs are in a union trade, which are typically covered by multiemployer plans in which employees are generally covered no matter where they go.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:37 pm

simplesimon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:29 pm
I work for a bank that still offers a pension. I just joined and was surprised that they did. It was not the reason I joined. It vests after 5 years. After 10 years, the multiplier increases.

Downsides have been mentioned: the company itself or the pension may not be around in 30-40 years,
Once the pension is vested, it should be protected barring company bankruptcy, and even then by the PGBC to some extent, right ?

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Watty » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:51 pm

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:37 pm
simplesimon wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:29 pm
I work for a bank that still offers a pension. I just joined and was surprised that they did. It was not the reason I joined. It vests after 5 years. After 10 years, the multiplier increases.

Downsides have been mentioned: the company itself or the pension may not be around in 30-40 years,
Once the pension is vested, it should be protected barring company bankruptcy, and even then by the PGBC to some extent, right ?
Part of the problem is that you might not be able to take a lump sum so you may not be able to collect it until you are 65. If you work there for 20 years and leave when you are 45 then you might have earned a pension of something like 20%(or whatever) of your final salary when you were 45. When you collect it when you turn 65 then the value of it will have been reduced by 20 years of inflation.

If the pension is discontinued it gets more complicated. I had one that was discontinued when I was in my 40s and they converted it to a cash balance plan where I had a set cash balance that would track the t-bill rate of a fixed interest rate. When you left the company you had the option of rolling the cash balance out to an IRA but not all plans allow that.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:56 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
Other than the military, a 23 year old shouldn’t rely on, or factor in, ANY pension that’s offered, no matter the employer.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by JoeRetire » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:10 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.

1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
One of the local supermarket chains has union employees and pensions.
Very Stable Genius

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by ICMoney » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:15 pm

My sense is the majority of open pension plans outside the government sector are cash balance plans, which look a lot different from the pension the mother likely had. If this young person is looking for an open, traditional final average pay pension plan outside the government sector, it will be hard to come by, and even then they can't expect it to provide ongoing accruals until this young person reaches retirement age. (I.e. it is not unlikely the plan would be frozen/terminated by then) I agree with others that looking at total compensation and career growth for whatever job offers are received will likely serve this young person far better than trying to chase a pension at age 23.

Best, ICM

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by mmmodem » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:26 pm

1. My megacorp still offers a pension. Yes, I was shocked a commercial fortune 500 company still offers a pension.
2. The pension vests fully after 3 years and is payable immediately upon separation of the company or whenever in the future the individual chooses.
3. None that I can tell. Although we don't have an ESPP. My previous company had an ESPP and no pension. My pension is entirely paid for by the company.
4. With my company I see no big advantage or disadvantage to the pension. Another company can easily have a higher 401k match that would exceed my company's pension + 401k match. My preference would be to have it in a 401k where I have full control anyway.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm

I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by CoastalWinds » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:36 pm

greg24 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:51 pm
This is a 3rd-hand information request.

There is about a 1% chance that the job seeker will use the information posted in this thread to pursue a job with a company just because it has a pension.

And a 0.1% chance they'll land a job at one of the mentioned companies.

And a 0.01% chance they'll stay long enough to vest.
And a 0.001% chance that the pension will still be around in 40 years.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by dm200 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:41 pm

teelainen wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:26 pm
My sister's son is 23 years old and is graduating college with a business degree. He will be looking for a full-time job soon. His mom wants him to work for a company that offers a pension. She had a pension with her job, and she said it is a lifesaver. However, that was a long time ago and she is not familiar with the current job market right now.
1. What companies are still offer pensions these days?
2. What is usually the average number of years you need to work for a company before you qualify for a pension? Is it 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
3. What are the downsides of working for a company with a pension?
4. What sort of things should I tell them to watch out for?
In the private sector, I believe there are almost no employers that provide a pension for retired employees. When I graduated from college 50+ years ago, almost all employers of any size provided pensions. Insisting on getting a pension excludes a very large number and percentage of employers - including some otherwise excellent ones.

Some employers that offer pensions (that are not government or education), such as some religious entities - have low pay scales.

So, it seems to me that if he must have a pension, he is limited to government or educational institutions. Of course, down the road, such employers may freeze or drop the pension.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by tim1999 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Numerous employers in my area have cash balance pension plans, but I'd be willing to bet that zero private sector employers in my city still have defined benefit pension plans open to new hires.

The county and state governments here have defined benefit pensions for new hires, and always seem to be hiring, but the pay is terrible; like 50-70% of what you could earn in the private sector for an equivalent position.
Last edited by tim1999 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by dm200 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:45 pm

Unfortunately, I suggest he find the best job/career he can -- and then become 100% committed, come hell or high water, to max out 401k, 403b and/or IRAs.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by tibbitts » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm

It's a horrible idea to put much weight on a pension at such a young age, because terms of the pension are likely to change and realistically nobody is likely to stay in a job for long enough to benefit. Just because you vest in 5 years doesn't mean you have much of value.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:48 pm

tim1999 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:44 pm
Numerous employers in my area have cash balance pension plans, but I'd be willing to bet that zero private sector employers in my city still have defined benefit pension plans open to new hires.

The county and state governments here have defined benefit pensions for new hires, and always seem to be hiring, but the pay is terrible; like 50-70% of what you could earn in the private sector for an equivalent position.
Depends on the location. In my west coast coastal town the city and school district jobs I see posted pay well above average for private sector. The pension is icing on the cake. I don’t think it will be sustainable in long term though as both city and school district budgets are spiraling out of control.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by dm200 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:56 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm
It's a horrible idea to put much weight on a pension at such a young age, because terms of the pension are likely to change and realistically nobody is likely to stay in a job for long enough to benefit. Just because you vest in 5 years doesn't mean you have much of value.
Right!!

My first job out of college was for a MegaCorp that provided (no contributions needed from employees) a pension plan. I cannot recall details, but I think the pension benefits at normal retirement age were good. I worked there for a little over ten years (with two years in the middle out for military service. I was fully vested in the plan and I was probably, for my age, above average in my salary. So, I left that megacorp at the very end of 1977 - or about 42 years ago. I started collecting the pension in 2011 - and chose the option that if I predeceased my wife - she would continue to get the same amount each month. That amount is $150.38 per month - fixed for life, with no inflation adjustment at all. That being said, I am happier to have this $150.38 than not getting it -- but it is so small because I only worked there for ten years -- and not the 30-50 years to get a better benefit. I don't recall when this MegaCorp froze and stopped providing such pensions -- but they no longer do.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:56 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I know people that would move in an instant from the north to the south but don’t because of vesting cliffs in their pension. Life’s too short for that.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Ron » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:58 pm

Union jobs...

Before you say that they are not "professional" positions, you're correct. However, we had a lot of long time employees that started out as teachers. The reality was that those in the union were paid much more (vehicle assembly) than the local teacher (also represented by unions) pay scale at the time.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Dottie57 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:13 pm

DesertDiva wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:03 pm
Tamarind wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm
If your nephew is able to save 15-20% of his gross pay, starting from day 1, and invest it sensibly, he will not need a pension to have a secure retirement.
+1. It's better to focus on career growth and creation/execution of an IPS.
+1

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Dottie57 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I would not have wanted a job I hated but stayed because of a pension. Lots of areas to balance. Salary, benefits, work culture, career growth, retirement benefits, lifestyle, lcation. These and more need to be prioritized. A pension may not come out on top.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:42 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I would not have wanted a job I hated but stayed because of a pension. Lots of areas to balance. Salary, benefits, work culture, career growth, retirement benefits, lifestyle, lcation. These and more need to be prioritized. A pension may not come out on top.
Exactly, it's a balance. I don't know why a pension would make one completely disregard all the other factors and stay in a job they hate.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm

I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm

I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash out sooner. Sure I’ll take a free pension on top of those things with a market base salary.

student
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by student » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:53 pm

Tamarind wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm
University systems, both public and private, at least in my state, commonly offer pensions to non-exempt employees. Typically one must stay at least 5 years to vest at all. 20 years is about the minimum IMO to get a respectable amount.

Another thing your sister may be missing, however, is how badly underfunded many pensions are. A lot more of them seem likely to go bust or convert to cash balance plans over the next couple of decades. My mother worked 30 years at MegaCorp. 20 years in they forcibly converted her pension to a defined contribution plan. Unfortunately they calculated and invested it very conservatively so she lost out on a lot of growth before they handed her the lump sum.

If your nephew is able to save 15-20% of his gross pay, starting from day 1, and invest it sensibly, he will not need a pension to have a secure retirement.
It is good that you have that in your state as we do not have that in our state. This article gives that breakdown https://protectpensions.org/2017/07/26/ ... rofessors/

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:56 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
As would I, options and RSUs are about as (un)common as pensions.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:01 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:56 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
As would I, options and RSUs are about as (un)common as pensions.
You have to be in an upper level position, but by no means C-suite or anything like that. But I think a 23 year old should shoot for that. Or being a business owner or whatever. Aim high!

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by JD2775 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:13 pm

I think pensions are become more and more rare these days. I keep forgetting I actually have a pension (been at company since 2006, pension was frozen/stopped in 2014). It's not much, 11k a year when I retire...but hey, maybe that will pay for my health insurance in retirement. Or a chunk of it at least.

I agree with others that it's much more important to look out for yourself savings-wise. I wish I did that in my 20's

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:18 pm

DesertDiva wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:03 pm
Tamarind wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:57 pm
If your nephew is able to save 15-20% of his gross pay, starting from day 1, and invest it sensibly, he will not need a pension to have a secure retirement.
+1. It's better to focus on career growth and creation/execution of an IPS.
+1 and better to focus on landing at a good company with decent benefits. A decent 401k match + a 15% gross savings rate is close to a pension with portability rights - you leave, you can take the assets to another employer if the investment options are good or better, or you can leave it there if the account value exceeds $5k or you can roll it over to an outside provider.

The graduates mother is a little late in expressing her wishes, she should have done this at age 18 so child could have researched this in advance as well as what majors are in demand at those companies.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:20 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:01 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:56 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
As would I, options and RSUs are about as (un)common as pensions.
You have to be in an upper level position, but by no means C-suite or anything like that. But I think a 23 year old should shoot for that. Or being a business owner or whatever. Aim high!
I'd love options or RSU's. I'm one step from c-suite, they aren't a thing in my industry.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:20 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
Yes, the folks at Enron, Worldcom, Eastman Kodak, Xerox, Bear Stearns and Lehman are all in agreement with you.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:23 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:20 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:01 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:56 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
As would I, options and RSUs are about as (un)common as pensions.
You have to be in an upper level position, but by no means C-suite or anything like that. But I think a 23 year old should shoot for that. Or being a business owner or whatever. Aim high!
I'd love options or RSU's. I'm one step from c-suite, they aren't a thing in my industry.
Interesting. I’m two steps down from C-suite and have very generous options in a blue collar type industry. People a step down from me have options too. It’s a large company but not a Goliath company like Apple or something.

Pierre Delecto
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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:24 pm

Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:23 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:20 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:01 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:56 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:51 pm
I’d much rather have options or RSUs than a pension. More flexible and can cash our sooner.
As would I, options and RSUs are about as (un)common as pensions.
You have to be in an upper level position, but by no means C-suite or anything like that. But I think a 23 year old should shoot for that. Or being a business owner or whatever. Aim high!
I'd love options or RSU's. I'm one step from c-suite, they aren't a thing in my industry.
Interesting. I’m two steps down from C-suite and have very generous options in a blue collar type industry. People a step down from me have options too. It’s a large company but not a Goliath company like Apple or something.
My former employer did not have options at my level.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by BradJ » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:35 pm

I have worked in utilities/electric business my entire life and most companies I have worked for had a pension.
Most require 5 years to be vested. Pensions are amazing if they are fully funded by employer and as an employee, you save like it doesn’t exist. In the end, you don’t own the it until it’s given to you, unlike a 401k that is 100% yours. Also, many come with penalties if you want to gift to your spouse when you pass.

Interesting tidbit: Union Pacific used to give employees AND their spouses a pension a piece.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by simplesimon » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:48 pm

It's too bad there's such a negative view on the long term viability of private pensions that some (like myself) can't live like it's going to be there when he retires.

If an individual saves and invests a high % of income AND the pension is there when he retires, he'll likely be in a higher tax bracket in retirement especially when RMDs hit. A nice problem to have but in hindsight could've afforded a higher standard of living during the working years.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Socal77 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:48 pm

cheese_breath wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:42 pm
Whether a company offers pensions now is irrelevant. The real question is whether it will continue to do so throughout your career until you're ready to retire. Many that used to provide pensions don't anymore. Some just froze them. Others converted them into 401Ks on terms less favorable to the employees than the pension would have been.
Can you elaborate on this? Mine froze a year ago and is ending this year. I've heard rumors of the 401K conversion possibility instead of defined benefit payments or as one of the options but not sure what it is.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by Pierre Delecto » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:56 pm

I find it hard to believe that millennials after bankrolling their under-funded parents’ generations public pensions will then be willing to bankroll their peers’ underfunded public pensions . Massive haircuts seem inevitable for a 23 year old starting out with a public pension.

No comment on private pensions other than they’re rare so thus easily retired from an HR perspective for new hires.

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Re: Entry-Level Jobs with Pensions - What companies still offer pensions these days?

Post by warner25 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:59 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:42 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 pm
Pierre Delecto wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:33 pm
I personally would avoid the handcuffs of a pension. I know too many government employees who are relatively young and would like to move to a different state or do something different but feel they can’t leave because of the pension. So they’re just sticking it out in a sub-optimal situation for the pension. And for years! No thanks.
This way of thinking is odd to me. You'd prefer not to have a huge benefit because it may make you not want to leave? Is the 7% 401k match or completely subsidized health insurance premiums provided by my wife's employer "handcuffs" too? The "handcuffs" are in your head, you're just as free to leave as anybody else who doesn't have the huge benefit.
I would not have wanted a job I hated but stayed because of a pension. Lots of areas to balance. Salary, benefits, work culture, career growth, retirement benefits, lifestyle, lcation. These and more need to be prioritized. A pension may not come out on top.
Exactly, it's a balance. I don't know why a pension would make one completely disregard all the other factors and stay in a job they hate.
I am handcuffed by a pension, so let me give some perspective here.

No, your wife's 401k match and health insurance are not handcuffs. She can obtain similar benefits elsewhere, so there is no opportunity cost of leaving her current employer.

As an active duty military officer, I am 8 years shy of a pension and retiree healthcare worth ~$2M. If I only continue for 7.9 years, I get $0. I would need to find a new job paying $500k+ after taxes to break even in financial terms, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not worth anywhere near $500k+ to any other organization. The military's organizational structure just depends on retaining people with 10-20 years of institutional knowledge and experience unique to military service, thus hard to replace and not easily transferable. So, yes, I'm "free to leave," but it's like cutting off my hands to do so. But, yes, it's a balance. My wife and I just need to decide what $2M is worth to our family. Whatever the outcome, like Pierre, I would also caution people from taking a job where so much compensation is deferred rather than paid out as you go.

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