Daughter's Boston Job Offer

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Elysium
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Elysium »

BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
Elysium wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm $68K is pretty good for a a fresh graduate. Starting salaries almost don't matter, instead the work and company matters. If the work is good and the company has many interesting projects she can learn from and have experienced folks to interact with, then in a year or two she can build up the resume and salary will go up if she goes out back in the job market. That's how you increase salaries, by gaining experience, building up profile, networking, and negotiating better salaries at new jobs. At least in my industry this is how it works. Congratulations to her on landing a job and good luck!
I think starting salary matters a ton because its the starting point of all salaries moving forward. Every recruiter that has ever contacted me has always asked what my current salary is during the first conversation.

I've found that companies usually have a range for their open role but they will often make you an offer just enough above your current salary to be enticing, so it snowballs. Let's say you make $70k, next employer has a role paying $70-90k, they offer you $77k (10% raise over your 70k) but if you were making $80k they might offer $88k, for the same role. This has been my experience in the corporate world.
It doesn't matter. You can tell them what you are making now, and still ask for a substantial hike because you believe the market supports it for your skills and profile. Employers will pay if they think they have the salary range, and that's where negotiation skills come in. You don't get to do that if you are out of job, but do it when you are on the job and doing really well. Do not accept the job if a particular employer is set on your current salary and tries to low ball you. Good employers will pay if they need your skills and it is supported by the market. I am speaking as someone who started with a very low base salary that doubled in a couple of years, and have been able to substantially increase it over the years. I once went from a $78K job to a $100K job in a year timeframe. Basically I took the low paying job for a particular reason to get into an industry vertical and when I realized it was low and my profile is looking good, negotiated a much higher salary with a competitor doing almost exactly same job. Also, my simple rule of thumb is not to move jobs for salary hikes unless you get a 20% hike in salary, when I was in the low-mid range up to $150K (after that 10% hikes okay). Aim for 20% hikes, accept if you get 15%, and at 10% do not leave unless you really don't like the current job or the new job offers substantial career prospects. Below 10% hikes reject offers unless again you are in a hell hole with current employer.
Last edited by Elysium on Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:41 am, edited 6 times in total.
Mr.BB
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Mr.BB »

She should also consider not just the value of the salary but the value of the company. It is her first job, literally getting her foot in the door somewhere. If the reputation of the company she would be working for is regarded in high standard for the field she is interested in, it may be worth taking a little less money to have that place on her resume.
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BW1985
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by BW1985 »

Elysium wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:30 am
BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
Elysium wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm $68K is pretty good for a a fresh graduate. Starting salaries almost don't matter, instead the work and company matters. If the work is good and the company has many interesting projects she can learn from and have experienced folks to interact with, then in a year or two she can build up the resume and salary will go up if she goes out back in the job market. That's how you increase salaries, by gaining experience, building up profile, networking, and negotiating better salaries at new jobs. At least in my industry this is how it works. Congratulations to her on landing a job and good luck!
I think starting salary matters a ton because its the starting point of all salaries moving forward. Every recruiter that has ever contacted me has always asked what my current salary is during the first conversation.

I've found that companies usually have a range for their open role but they will often make you an offer just enough above your current salary to be enticing, so it snowballs. Let's say you make $70k, next employer has a role paying $70-90k, they offer you $77k (10% raise over your 70k) but if you were making $80k they might offer $88k, for the same role. This has been my experience in the corporate world.
It doesn't matter. You can tell them what you are making now, and still ask for a substantial hike because you believe the market supports it for your skills and profile. Employers will pay if they think they have the salary range, and that's where negotiation skills come in. You don't get to do that if you are out of job, but do it when you are on the job and doing really well. Do not accept the job if a particular employer is set on your current salary and tries to low ball you. Good employers will pay if they need your skills and it is supported by the market. I am speaking as someone who started with a very low base salary that doubled in a couple of years, and have been able to substantially increase it over the years. I once went from a $78K job to a $100K job in a year timeframe. Basically I took the low paying job for a particular reason to get into an industry vertical and when I realized it was low and my profile is looking good, negotiated a much higher salary with a competitor doing almost exactly same job.
Finding these employers is easier said then done IMO. Our experiences differ so of course we have different perspectives.
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Elysium
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Elysium »

BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:39 am
Elysium wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:30 am
BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
Elysium wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm $68K is pretty good for a a fresh graduate. Starting salaries almost don't matter, instead the work and company matters. If the work is good and the company has many interesting projects she can learn from and have experienced folks to interact with, then in a year or two she can build up the resume and salary will go up if she goes out back in the job market. That's how you increase salaries, by gaining experience, building up profile, networking, and negotiating better salaries at new jobs. At least in my industry this is how it works. Congratulations to her on landing a job and good luck!
I think starting salary matters a ton because its the starting point of all salaries moving forward. Every recruiter that has ever contacted me has always asked what my current salary is during the first conversation.

I've found that companies usually have a range for their open role but they will often make you an offer just enough above your current salary to be enticing, so it snowballs. Let's say you make $70k, next employer has a role paying $70-90k, they offer you $77k (10% raise over your 70k) but if you were making $80k they might offer $88k, for the same role. This has been my experience in the corporate world.
It doesn't matter. You can tell them what you are making now, and still ask for a substantial hike because you believe the market supports it for your skills and profile. Employers will pay if they think they have the salary range, and that's where negotiation skills come in. You don't get to do that if you are out of job, but do it when you are on the job and doing really well. Do not accept the job if a particular employer is set on your current salary and tries to low ball you. Good employers will pay if they need your skills and it is supported by the market. I am speaking as someone who started with a very low base salary that doubled in a couple of years, and have been able to substantially increase it over the years. I once went from a $78K job to a $100K job in a year timeframe. Basically I took the low paying job for a particular reason to get into an industry vertical and when I realized it was low and my profile is looking good, negotiated a much higher salary with a competitor doing almost exactly same job.
Finding these employers is easier said then done IMO. Our experiences differ so of course we have different perspectives.
Right. So the industry matters. I totally agree. But then again I don't know if an up and coming Biotech engineer would be limited in a field like that. I worked in IT & Consulting all my life, perhaps tainted by that experience.
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gr7070
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by gr7070 »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:54 pm
gr7070 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm $65k would seem to be a reasonable starting salary in typical COLAs. Boston being rather HCOL would have that $65k appear low.

That being said, I don't know Boston. It's possible that there's something about the Boston market and mechanical engineering that makes the starting ME jobs lower paid than expected. I doubt that's the case, but it's possible.
I am not biomedical engineer (senior director in mid-size health company, most of my employers are biologists and chemists/chemical engineers), but my star employee did her undergrad in biomed and is starting her PhD in biotech at Johns Hopkins this fall - I know what I was able to pay her. As someone who is in upper management in a 4,000 employee STEM company in a MCOL area, the idea that $68k/yr for a recent grad with no experience is low is insane to me; that's ~20k more than I have ever been able to offer anybody in a similar situation. And a quick Google search suggests that $68k/yr is crazy high for new engineers in my area. Salary discussions on this board are generally a different world to me.
$48k?! When's the last time you hired a new grad?

You brought up ChE. I personally know *multiple* ChE hired out of undergrad in *1993* making more than $65k. In typical midwest cities.

Civil, typically the lowest paid engineer, are starting in the $60s in typical cities. I would think a Boston ME would be making more than a Madison CE???

I know multiple MEs starting at $65k in typical Midwest cities. I know ME managers in those cities hiring new grad MEs at $65k and above.

These aren't NoCal software engineers salaries I'm talking about, as stated.
stoptothink
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

gr7070 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:50 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:54 pm
gr7070 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm $65k would seem to be a reasonable starting salary in typical COLAs. Boston being rather HCOL would have that $65k appear low.

That being said, I don't know Boston. It's possible that there's something about the Boston market and mechanical engineering that makes the starting ME jobs lower paid than expected. I doubt that's the case, but it's possible.
I am not biomedical engineer (senior director in mid-size health company, most of my employers are biologists and chemists/chemical engineers), but my star employee did her undergrad in biomed and is starting her PhD in biotech at Johns Hopkins this fall - I know what I was able to pay her. As someone who is in upper management in a 4,000 employee STEM company in a MCOL area, the idea that $68k/yr for a recent grad with no experience is low is insane to me; that's ~20k more than I have ever been able to offer anybody in a similar situation. And a quick Google search suggests that $68k/yr is crazy high for new engineers in my area. Salary discussions on this board are generally a different world to me.
$48k?! When's the last time you hired a new grad?
...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
stoptothink
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

wrongfunds wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:21 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:54 pm
gr7070 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm $65k would seem to be a reasonable starting salary in typical COLAs. Boston being rather HCOL would have that $65k appear low.

That being said, I don't know Boston. It's possible that there's something about the Boston market and mechanical engineering that makes the starting ME jobs lower paid than expected. I doubt that's the case, but it's possible.
I am not biomedical engineer (senior director in mid-size health company, most of my employers are biologists and chemists/chemical engineers), but my star employee did her undergrad in biomed and is starting her PhD in biotech at Johns Hopkins this fall - I know what I was able to pay her. As someone who is in upper management in a 4,000 employee STEM company in a MCOL area, the idea that $68k/yr for a recent grad with no experience is low is insane to me; that's ~20k more than I have ever been able to offer anybody in a similar situation. And a quick Google search suggests that $68k/yr is crazy high for new engineers in my area. Salary discussions on this board are generally a different world to me.
I presume as a director of this company your compensation is in low hundreds?

HECK NO! You make similar to what other senior director in mid-size health company would be making which is more likely to be three times that number. When you compare your compensation, you don't look at fly over zone companies only.

This does rub me the wrong way when I see a higher up throwing "comparative compensation" to lower level rank employees.
This is too ironic, because I do in fact make low 6-figures; senior director, PhD, and a decade of experience in related fields (5 in this specific niche industry). FWIW, I have (director/senior director) colleagues who make less than I do and I know exactly what my counterparts at our two most direct competitors make...because they both recruited me. Don't worry, you certainly would not be the first on this board to tell me I was lying about how low my compensation was. Go ahead, I don't get some odd rush from people thinking I make less than I do.

Discussions of salary on this board tend to be heavily skewed to HCOL areas and super high achievers. I might meet the latter threshold for some considering I hit senior director at 35, but I'm not HCOL (although definitely not LCOL). All it takes is a quick Google search to confirm that the salaries thrown around on here are not the norm.
ohai
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by ohai »

I don't know how to answer OP's question on whether the $68k offer is reasonable. All graduates have different schools, GPA, personality, and interview quality. Some are going to be offered 2x others to start. Graduates are not all comparable.

If daughter has other offers for a higher salary, then $68k is not reasonable. If that's the best or only offer and they won't negotiate, then it's hard to say it's unreasonable.
stoptothink
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

ohai wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:41 pm
If daughter has other offers for a higher salary, then $68k is not reasonable. If that's the best or only offer and they won't negotiate, then it's hard to say it's unreasonable.
Sums it up. Impossible to discuss what is "reasonable" when there is one data point. The only thing that matters is what her options are offering.
BanquetBeer
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by BanquetBeer »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm
...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
Lol, chemistry is not anywhere near equivalent to engineering. That just proves the point.

https://aggiesurveys.tamu.edu/public/Reports.aspx

Look at spring 2019 (summer grads usually less because not good academically and have to take another semester)

Mechanics engr avg $73k
Biomedical engr avg: $68k
Chemistry: $57k (but salaries don’t climb as fast as engineer after you get a job)

These jobs are typically in Texas area low to medium cost of living. These numbers also have a wide range including people who almost didn’t pass.

If your daughter has a good GPA (3.4 or better) she should be looking towards top quartile:
$76k and $73k, respectively, but a bit more for the higher COL

Also, what was the signing bonus? 10 years ago I got a $10-15k signing bonus (to help move and set up) from a megacorp. Smaller companies may not pay these.

Salary differences tend to magnify over your career. What’s ‘only $5k’ now grows to $20k and you look and the lifetime lost earnings it’s a few hundred thousand.

You can always job hop more aggressively to minimize this though. But that’s a bit of work.
Fogbank
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Fogbank »

One minor point I thought of that might explain this:

Boston is definitely a HCOL area, no doubt about that. But IMHO another thing that must be considered before plugging a salary offer into a tool and comparing differences between zip codes is that the Boston area is awash in universities with STEM programs... All together they are cranking out thousands of STEM graduates each semester. The talent pool of eager-beaver recent grads is likely more than ample, which may explain what some posters have discerned to be an average to mediocre salary offer.

Personally, I would be just as -if not more- concerned with things like 401k Match %, Investment Selections, HSA offerings, etc. than squeezing every last dollar out of the base salary turnip.
stoptothink
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

BanquetBeer wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:56 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm
...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
Lol, chemistry is not anywhere near equivalent to engineering. That just proves the point.

https://aggiesurveys.tamu.edu/public/Reports.aspx

Look at spring 2019 (summer grads usually less because not good academically and have to take another semester)

Mechanics engr avg $73k
Biomedical engr avg: $68k
Chemistry: $57k (but salaries don’t climb as fast as engineer after you get a job)

These jobs are typically in Texas area low to medium cost of living. These numbers also have a wide range including people who almost didn’t pass.

If your daughter has a good GPA (3.4 or better) she should be looking towards top quartile:
$76k and $73k, respectively, but a bit more for the higher COL

Also, what was the signing bonus? 10 years ago I got a $10-15k signing bonus (to help move and set up) from a megacorp. Smaller companies may not pay these.

Salary differences tend to magnify over your career. What’s ‘only $5k’ now grows to $20k and you look and the lifetime lost earnings it’s a few hundred thousand.

You can always job hop more aggressively to minimize this though. But that’s a bit of work.
All I was asked was "when was the last time you hired a new grad?" When was the last time I hired a new chemical engineering grad?...That would be ~6 months ago, and I believe they started at $44k as well. I am not searching for chemical engineers, chemists are more suited to the entry-level positions I am generally looking to fill, but I get a ton of interest from recent grads in chemical engineering and I have hired (off the top of my head) 2 in the last few years. Same thing with biomed, and I have hired one. We're one of the largest STEM-related employers in the state and there are not a ton of opportunities in chemical/biomed engineering in the area, at least that is my perception because I get a ton of applicants with these education backgrounds.

Furthermore, none of these anecdotes are relevant to the question. What is "reasonable" is completely dependent on available options. Right now it seems OP's daughter has one opportunity; to determine if it is "reasonable" get some more offers.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Another topic worth looking into that is very important. Massachusetts still allows enforcement of non-compete agreements. This is absolutely horrible and can greatly limit the career of a new grad. I worked at one of these companies and when an engineer attempted to get a job that even hinted of being a competitor, they sicked their lawyers on the hiring company and the engineer personally. I know that in every single case, the offer was rescinded and the engineer had to find a non competing job in state or move to a state that would not enforce the non compete (like California). I know Medtronic was one of the worst I heard of, holding an employee to 3 years of non compete. If the company requires a non-compete, reject that offer and move on. I nearly left my company with a non compete to work at Home Depot for a year just to let the non compete expire. Unlike California, where you can literally walk across the street and take a job at the main competitor, in Mass, if you are under non compete, you can't. The good news is that the percentage of companies who require this is low.

As an example, here's a summary of a case where Medtronic is using their non compete in court: https://www.fordharrison.com/noncompete ... tate-court

I looked around a bit more as I know the legislature had been trying to modify or eliminate non competes for some time (I testified before the committee myself) and it seems they moved a bit in the right direction. But they did not remove non compete agreements. It looks like they're now limited to a year.

https://newenglandinhouse.com/2019/11/2 ... e-happens/
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wrongfunds
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by wrongfunds »

Do they make you sign non-compete at entry level (heck even at senior grunt aka engineers) position?
ddurrett896
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by ddurrett896 »

fru-gal wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:23 pm Even in this day and age, she may be hitting a gender pay gap. I got hired by a Boston area company and 3-4 years later when I moved into management and had access to salary data, I found I'd been hired at about 1/3 less than the people I was now supervising.
How would they know the persons gender without asking - which I highly doubt happened during the interview process.
BanquetBeer
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by BanquetBeer »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:23 pm All I was asked was "when was the last time you hired a new grad?" When was the last time I hired a new chemical engineering grad?...That would be ~6 months ago, and I believe they started at $44k as well. I am not searching for chemical engineers, chemists are more suited to the entry-level positions I am generally looking to fill, but I get a ton of interest from recent grads in chemical engineering and I have hired (off the top of my head) 2 in the last few years. Same thing with biomed, and I have hired one. We're one of the largest STEM-related employers in the state and there are not a ton of opportunities in chemical/biomed engineering in the area, at least that is my perception because I get a ton of applicants with these education backgrounds.

Furthermore, none of these anecdotes are relevant to the question. What is "reasonable" is completely dependent on available options. Right now it seems OP's daughter has one opportunity; to determine if it is "reasonable" get some more offers.
Looking at the 2 main texas state schools, $44k is way below the bottom 25% of offers. 10 years ago, small municipalities were offering $60k for government jobs for life.

I’m not sure under what circumstances you can hire an engineer for $44k but I hope it isn’t for anything critical or safety related.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

BanquetBeer wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:49 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:23 pm All I was asked was "when was the last time you hired a new grad?" When was the last time I hired a new chemical engineering grad?...That would be ~6 months ago, and I believe they started at $44k as well. I am not searching for chemical engineers, chemists are more suited to the entry-level positions I am generally looking to fill, but I get a ton of interest from recent grads in chemical engineering and I have hired (off the top of my head) 2 in the last few years. Same thing with biomed, and I have hired one. We're one of the largest STEM-related employers in the state and there are not a ton of opportunities in chemical/biomed engineering in the area, at least that is my perception because I get a ton of applicants with these education backgrounds.

Furthermore, none of these anecdotes are relevant to the question. What is "reasonable" is completely dependent on available options. Right now it seems OP's daughter has one opportunity; to determine if it is "reasonable" get some more offers.
Looking at the 2 main texas state schools, $44k is way below the bottom 25% of offers. 10 years ago, small municipalities were offering $60k for government jobs for life.

I’m not sure under what circumstances you can hire an engineer for $44k but I hope it isn’t for anything critical or safety related.
I'm not in Texas and still not sure what your point is. Because they are paid less here than they are in HCOL areas somehow means that they are less than? As I stated earlier, my biomed engineer is on her way to Johns Hopkins for her PhD in biotech - she was a Fulbright scholar and valedictorian of her college graduating class, a literal genius - but she had no interest in leaving the area she was born and raised in for college or her first job. She probably could have gotten 6-figures as a 20yr old grad in Minneapolis, Boston, Philly, the Bay, or others areas with ample biomed opportunities but she chose to live in Utah so $48k it was.

For the 3rd time, "reasonable" pay can only be determined by the available options; do you disagree with that?
wrongfunds
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by wrongfunds »

What? Utah is so cheap? Nobody told me Salt Lake City is cheap nor did I get that feeling when I visited southern part of Utah (bordering on Arizona).
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simplesimon
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by simplesimon »

Has anybody successfully used cost of living as justification for their salary when negotiating? It's a free market and salaries will be whatever people are willing to accept.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by KyleAAA »

I'm not sure why so many people are talking about the COL. That is irrelevant. What matters is supply and demand for her set of skills. What's the market salary for that job title at that class of company in that city? What are other companies paying. COL has nothing to do with it. The only real way to know if $68k is good for Boston is to get another offer in Boston, preferably several.
CMD1
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by CMD1 »

I'd rather a new grad be in a HCOL big city than a smaller market. Starting wage will be much less relevant in a few years than it would be in a smaller market, career growth and opportunities will far outpace smaller markets. I wish I had taken this route.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

wrongfunds wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:02 pm Do they make you sign non-compete at entry level (heck even at senior grunt aka engineers) position?
At the company where I was under one, everyone had to.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

wrongfunds wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:06 pm What? Utah is so cheap? Nobody told me Salt Lake City is cheap nor did I get that feeling when I visited southern part of Utah (bordering on Arizona).
It isn't (necessarily), but the availability of opportunities for chem and biomed engineers isn't like it is in Boston so neither is the compensation. With that education background, if you want to stay in this area, you might not have the opportunity to go immediately into a true engineering position (which is where I come in). I'm not sure how else this can be explained.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

KyleAAA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 pm I'm not sure why so many people are talking about the COL. That is irrelevant. What matters is supply and demand for her set of skills. What's the market salary for that job title at that class of company in that city? What are other companies paying. COL has nothing to do with it. The only real way to know if $68k is good for Boston is to get another offer in Boston, preferably several.
It really is this simple. All the anecdotes saying it is low or high (including mine) are irrelevant; what is "reasonable" is what the opportunities in that specific area are offering.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by LawEgr1 »

I don't think it's unreasonable. My experience has been that biotech may be lower pending the specific job.

I also agree that the starting salary isn't truly going to set his/her future salary raises. Performance, market and niche will. I, too, like a poster above went from 78k to 102k in <1 year. In 5 years from started @ 63k now to 112k.

I wouldn't turn down the job because of it being 'perceived to be low' and desiring a higher salary out of the gate for a measly $5k or what not when you never know what the future holds.

It's the first job, it's decent enough salary. I think average starting for BMEs at my school about 5 years ago were in the mid-50s. Of the engineering disciplines, EE/ChemE/CompE started out highest, BME/Civil/Industrial started out lowest (on average).

So I would suggest that if the job is interesting enough to take, take it! Many other opportunities will come along. If the student is a strong engineer and executes well, keeps the business in mind and can communicate better than a typical engineer, I don't think you'll be worrying about what the student started at...there will be plenty of opportunities!
BW1985
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by BW1985 »

KyleAAA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 pm I'm not sure why so many people are talking about the COL. That is irrelevant. What matters is supply and demand for her set of skills. What's the market salary for that job title at that class of company in that city? What are other companies paying. COL has nothing to do with it. The only real way to know if $68k is good for Boston is to get another offer in Boston, preferably several.
What if she gets another offer that's not in Boston? How would you compare salaries without taking COL into account? OP didn't say their daughter was set on Boston.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by KyleAAA »

LawEgr1 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:38 pm I don't think it's unreasonable. My experience has been that biotech may be lower pending the specific job.

I also agree that the starting salary isn't truly going to set his/her future salary raises. Performance, market and niche will. I, too, like a poster above went from 78k to 102k in <1 year. In 5 years from started @ 63k now to 112k.

I wouldn't turn down the job because of it being 'perceived to be low' and desiring a higher salary out of the gate for a measly $5k or what not when you never know what the future holds.

It's the first job, it's decent enough salary. I think average starting for BMEs at my school about 5 years ago were in the mid-50s. Of the engineering disciplines, EE/ChemE/CompE started out highest, BME/Civil/Industrial started out lowest (on average).

So I would suggest that if the job is interesting enough to take, take it! Many other opportunities will come along. If the student is a strong engineer and executes well, keeps the business in mind and can communicate better than a typical engineer, I don't think you'll be worrying about what the student started at...there will be plenty of opportunities!
I would add that in many states and cities it is already illegal to ask a candidate their current compensation. It will be made illegal in all states eventually. So the traditional relationship between starting salary and lifetime earnings will be dramatically diminished over time.

https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-hist ... st/516662/
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by KyleAAA »

BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:49 pm
KyleAAA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 pm I'm not sure why so many people are talking about the COL. That is irrelevant. What matters is supply and demand for her set of skills. What's the market salary for that job title at that class of company in that city? What are other companies paying. COL has nothing to do with it. The only real way to know if $68k is good for Boston is to get another offer in Boston, preferably several.
What if she gets another offer that's not in Boston? How would you compare salaries without taking COL into account? OP didn't say their daughter was set on Boston.
You'd obviously compare COL, advancement opportunity, and QOL at that point. The OP's question was whether $68k was reasonable IN BOSTON. That cannot be answered without getting another offer in Boston.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Silence Dogood »

gobucks4657 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:44 pm My daughter majored in mechanical and biomedical engineering in college, graduating in May. She recently got a job offer for 68k in the Boston metro area. We are not familiar with the area but know that the cost of living is expensive. Is this salary reasonable for a new grad? Thanks
What does your daughter think?
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Amar99 »

gobucks4657 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:30 pm Thank you all for the replies. A couple extra points:
  • This is her first offer and has not started negotiating yet. It is still early in the semester and she is also interviewing elsewhere.
  • The company is well established (not a start-up).
  • Location is Waltham.
1)that salary looks like a decent number to start with
2)Waltham has a ton of biotech firms, so there would be more opportunities if your daughter want to change jobs after a few months.
3)If commuting from New Hampshire is an option that could result in more savings. State tax free, low cost of living than Mass area.

My $0.02
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Sailorgirl »

I have two daughters. They are accountants not engineers. We encouraged our daughters to counter their first job offer. Both did and their counters were accepted. Most women generally make less than their male peers. A counter of 4-6% is generally accepted. The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate. Negotiating your first job offer will encourage her to negotiate promotions and future job offers. Most importantly it will encourage her to speak up, be heard and hold her own in her male dominated team.

Make a counter to get her over 70k.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Freetime76 »

Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm I have two daughters. They are accountants not engineers. We encouraged our daughters to counter their first job offer. Both did and their counters were accepted. Most women generally make less than their male peers. A counter of 4-6% is generally accepted. The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate. Negotiating your first job offer will encourage her to negotiate promotions and future job offers. Most importantly it will encourage her to speak up, be heard and hold her own in her male dominated team.

Make a counter to get her over 70k.
This is important advice. Up the salary she wants (of any offer- there will be room), ask for a sign on bonus, ask about PTO and benefits cost to employees, watch the non-competes. Also critical, though you didn’t ask: does she like her would-be manager? First job, try to get a mentor-type person.

Salaries are tricky, if you start in the low end of the range at a company, you’ll stay there no matter what you do. So...as others said, negotiate, and also suggest she find a position and team that gets her experience she wants as a stepping stone. If she doesn’t like something, the world not end (not sure if she’s stressing out about it). Go get something else :wink:
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by bluebolt »

BW1985 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:08 am
Elysium wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm $68K is pretty good for a a fresh graduate. Starting salaries almost don't matter, instead the work and company matters. If the work is good and the company has many interesting projects she can learn from and have experienced folks to interact with, then in a year or two she can build up the resume and salary will go up if she goes out back in the job market. That's how you increase salaries, by gaining experience, building up profile, networking, and negotiating better salaries at new jobs. At least in my industry this is how it works. Congratulations to her on landing a job and good luck!
I think starting salary matters a ton because its the starting point of all salaries moving forward. Every recruiter that has ever contacted me has always asked what my current salary is during the first conversation.

I've found that companies usually have a range for their open role but they will often make you an offer just enough above your current salary to be enticing, so it snowballs. Let's say you make $70k, next employer has a role paying $70-90k, they offer you $77k (10% raise over your 70k) but if you were making $80k they might offer $88k, for the same role. This has been my experience in the corporate world.
It's illegal to ask for your current salary in MA.

https://qz.com/749476/massachusetts-sal ... nterviews/
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by warner25 »

Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm...The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate...
Yes... I applied for jobs in the Boston area as a college senior in 2008, computer science, and I had no idea what I was doing. During my first on-site interview, an HR person asked about my salary requirements and I said, "Oh I don't know, maybe mid-40s, as long as it's enough to live in the city." The HR person replied that I should really do my homework on compensation, but she was bound by corporate rules to offer at least mid-60s for a fresh graduate. I was like, "Whoa, really!?" They ended up offering $63k and I made no attempt to counter. :oops:
Amar99 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:14 pmIf commuting from New Hampshire is an option that could result in more savings. State tax free, low cost of living than Mass area.
I would not recommend this to a 20-something single person. Even if she can make/save more money elsewhere, it's worth living in Boston for a while. It's a fantastic city for young people. Now married with three little kids, I think it would be a nightmare, so I'm glad I got to experience it in college and for a while thereafter.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Wellfleet »

I live in the Boston area and this salary should be fine to enjoy most of what Boston offers. As a new grad though, they might try to get a job in Cambridge- Kendall Square because that is the heart of the engineering industry right now.

Waltham will require a car and is a decent 30-60 minute commute from Boston/Cambridge/Somerville where many new grads want to live.

Also, no offense intended but I actually wish I didn’t consult my parents on my first job offer! I declined what could’ve been a lucrative career path because they thought the salary was too low and I kept looking.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:03 pm
BanquetBeer wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:49 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:23 pm All I was asked was "when was the last time you hired a new grad?" When was the last time I hired a new chemical engineering grad?...That would be ~6 months ago, and I believe they started at $44k as well. I am not searching for chemical engineers, chemists are more suited to the entry-level positions I am generally looking to fill, but I get a ton of interest from recent grads in chemical engineering and I have hired (off the top of my head) 2 in the last few years. Same thing with biomed, and I have hired one. We're one of the largest STEM-related employers in the state and there are not a ton of opportunities in chemical/biomed engineering in the area, at least that is my perception because I get a ton of applicants with these education backgrounds.

Furthermore, none of these anecdotes are relevant to the question. What is "reasonable" is completely dependent on available options. Right now it seems OP's daughter has one opportunity; to determine if it is "reasonable" get some more offers.
Looking at the 2 main texas state schools, $44k is way below the bottom 25% of offers. 10 years ago, small municipalities were offering $60k for government jobs for life.

I’m not sure under what circumstances you can hire an engineer for $44k but I hope it isn’t for anything critical or safety related.
I'm not in Texas and still not sure what your point is. Because they are paid less here than they are in HCOL areas somehow means that they are less than? As I stated earlier, my biomed engineer is on her way to Johns Hopkins for her PhD in biotech - she was a Fulbright scholar and valedictorian of her college graduating class, a literal genius - but she had no interest in leaving the area she was born and raised in for college or her first job. She probably could have gotten 6-figures as a 20yr old grad in Minneapolis, Boston, Philly, the Bay, or others areas with ample biomed opportunities but she chose to live in Utah so $48k it was.
Do you think she made the right choice in staying in Utah and working for you for $48k?

Do you think she'll come back to Utah after her PhD?
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by soxfan10 »

warner25 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:10 pm
Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm...The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate...
Yes... I applied for jobs in the Boston area as a college senior in 2008, computer science, and I had no idea what I was doing. During my first on-site interview, an HR person asked about my salary requirements and I said, "Oh I don't know, maybe mid-40s, as long as it's enough to live in the city." The HR person replied that I should really do my homework on compensation, but she was bound by corporate rules to offer at least mid-60s for a fresh graduate. I was like, "Whoa, really!?" They ended up offering $63k and I made no attempt to counter. :oops:
Amar99 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:14 pmIf commuting from New Hampshire is an option that could result in more savings. State tax free, low cost of living than Mass area.
I would not recommend this to a 20-something single person. Even if she can make/save more money elsewhere, it's worth living in Boston for a while. It's a fantastic city for young people. Now married with three little kids, I think it would be a nightmare, so I'm glad I got to experience it in college and for a while thereafter.
There's not even any tax savings if you're working in Massachusetts as the income is Massachusetts sourced.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by AerialWombat »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm ...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
For where you are located (Utah, if I recall), this seems appropriate.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by mroe800 »

LawEgr1 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:38 pmI also agree that the starting salary isn't truly going to set his/her future salary raises. Performance, market and niche will. I, too, like a poster above went from 78k to 102k in <1 year. In 5 years from started @ 63k now to 112k.

I wouldn't turn down the job because of it being 'perceived to be low' and desiring a higher salary out of the gate for a measly $5k or what not when you never know what the future holds.
You really have to know the market. I started fairly low IMO for my industry, but with about 0% “real” OTJ experience beyond ~10-20hrs/week in college for a few years I don’t know that I could have gotten more and my parents seemed to think it was a godsend that I even got a job offer.

My journey this far I’ve tripled my income in ~6 years including an early 20% pay cut (to reduce my commute, improve benefits) and a year I went from $73K to $101K; I stress that you must know the market. I regret allowing myself to take the pay cut; however, it opened doors into the software industry for me and I’m not even a software developer or engineer. First jobs are about building experience and networks, but starting pay can definitely set /expectations/ for future rates. Had I not done more research and contacts through my network, I’d never be making low six figures today.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

ARoseByAnyOtherName wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:03 pm
BanquetBeer wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:49 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:23 pm All I was asked was "when was the last time you hired a new grad?" When was the last time I hired a new chemical engineering grad?...That would be ~6 months ago, and I believe they started at $44k as well. I am not searching for chemical engineers, chemists are more suited to the entry-level positions I am generally looking to fill, but I get a ton of interest from recent grads in chemical engineering and I have hired (off the top of my head) 2 in the last few years. Same thing with biomed, and I have hired one. We're one of the largest STEM-related employers in the state and there are not a ton of opportunities in chemical/biomed engineering in the area, at least that is my perception because I get a ton of applicants with these education backgrounds.

Furthermore, none of these anecdotes are relevant to the question. What is "reasonable" is completely dependent on available options. Right now it seems OP's daughter has one opportunity; to determine if it is "reasonable" get some more offers.
Looking at the 2 main texas state schools, $44k is way below the bottom 25% of offers. 10 years ago, small municipalities were offering $60k for government jobs for life.

I’m not sure under what circumstances you can hire an engineer for $44k but I hope it isn’t for anything critical or safety related.
I'm not in Texas and still not sure what your point is. Because they are paid less here than they are in HCOL areas somehow means that they are less than? As I stated earlier, my biomed engineer is on her way to Johns Hopkins for her PhD in biotech - she was a Fulbright scholar and valedictorian of her college graduating class, a literal genius - but she had no interest in leaving the area she was born and raised in for college or her first job. She probably could have gotten 6-figures as a 20yr old grad in Minneapolis, Boston, Philly, the Bay, or others areas with ample biomed opportunities but she chose to live in Utah so $48k it was.
Do you think she made the right choice in staying in Utah and working for you for $48k?

Do you think she'll come back to Utah after her PhD?
That's not a question for me to answer. As a 20yr old recent grad, she was able to buy a house on that salary; she was very thankful.

I think it is very likely she returns to Utah. She now has a husband who doesn't want to leave (he still doesn't have a plan for this fall) and she has an extremely close family. FWIW, she doesn't make $48k now (3yrs in), she's a rockstar, but that's what I was able to offer her initially.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Valuethinker »

Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:32 am She should also consider not just the value of the salary but the value of the company. It is her first job, literally getting her foot in the door somewhere. If the reputation of the company she would be working for is regarded in high standard for the field she is interested in, it may be worth taking a little less money to have that place on her resume.
This is the key:

- the work she will be doing

- the reputation of the company

It's worth asking for another 5-10k to see how anxious they are to have her.

But if you work for a gold standard employer in a field, that carries with your resume/ CV for life. It lets you into "the club".

The danger is you join a place that looks like a star (an Enron at worst case; or a GE on the turn) and it gets tarnished before you get out.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

AerialWombat wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:55 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm ...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
For where you are located (Utah, if I recall), this seems appropriate.
Utah County. Tech is exploding and pays quite well here - as someone who's wife makes low 100s in tech, 4yrs into her career without a college degree (working on it) or any prior experience - but otherwise salaries are low compared to the numbers constantly thrown around on this board. There are directors in my mid-size corp making <$75k/yr. When I have openings, I get 100+ applicants in a matter of days (some of them with chem and biomed engineering backgrounds), for jobs requiring a STEM degree and starting at $36k-48k/yr.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by AerialWombat »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:50 am
AerialWombat wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:55 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm ...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
For where you are located (Utah, if I recall), this seems appropriate.
Utah County. Tech is exploding and pays quite well here - as someone who's wife makes low 100s in tech, 4yrs into her career without a college degree (working on it) or any prior experience - but otherwise salaries are low compared to the numbers constantly thrown around on this board. There are directors in my mid-size corp making <$75k/yr. When I have openings, I get 100+ applicants in a matter of days (some of them with chem and biomed engineering backgrounds), for jobs requiring a STEM degree and starting at $36k-48k/yr.
Totally makes sense. While things are booming, compared to past years, from Provo to Sandy, it’s not Seattle, San Francisco, or Boston. There is less demand, COL is cheaper, and local universities are pumping out STEM talent, so of course salaries will be lower. It’s a great place to live, so people that want to stay probably outweigh those wanting to leave. Simple supply and demand.

COL clearly influences local salaries. In Boston, this has to push them up. But also, a lot of grads in Boston, so that pushes salaries down a bit. So, the offer for the OP’s kid seems about right.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by Mr.BB »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:50 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:32 am She should also consider not just the value of the salary but the value of the company. It is her first job, literally getting her foot in the door somewhere. If the reputation of the company she would be working for is regarded in high standard for the field she is interested in, it may be worth taking a little less money to have that place on her resume.
This is the key:

- the work she will be doing

- the reputation of the company

It's worth asking for another 5-10k to see how anxious they are to have her.

But if you work for a gold standard employer in a field, that carries with your resume/ CV for life. It lets you into "the club".

The danger is you join a place that looks like a star (an Enron at worst case; or a GE on the turn) and it gets tarnished before you get out.
The only way you're going to find out if it is a star company is to get a job there. Getting to know your field of business and the people in there will help distinguish their reputation.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

AerialWombat wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:48 am
stoptothink wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:50 am
AerialWombat wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:55 am
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm ...this morning actually. BS in chemistry, $44k to start.
For where you are located (Utah, if I recall), this seems appropriate.
Utah County. Tech is exploding and pays quite well here - as someone who's wife makes low 100s in tech, 4yrs into her career without a college degree (working on it) or any prior experience - but otherwise salaries are low compared to the numbers constantly thrown around on this board. There are directors in my mid-size corp making <$75k/yr. When I have openings, I get 100+ applicants in a matter of days (some of them with chem and biomed engineering backgrounds), for jobs requiring a STEM degree and starting at $36k-48k/yr.
Totally makes sense. While things are booming, compared to past years, from Provo to Sandy, it’s not Seattle, San Francisco, or Boston. There is less demand, COL is cheaper, and local universities are pumping out STEM talent, so of course salaries will be lower. It’s a great place to live, so people that want to stay probably outweigh those wanting to leave. Simple supply and demand.

COL clearly influences local salaries. In Boston, this has to push them up. But also, a lot of grads in Boston, so that pushes salaries down a bit. So, the offer for the OP’s kid seems about right.
Exactly. I'm in Pleasant Grove, if you are familiar with the area you can probably guess who my employer is. The anecdotes are pointless, the offers are the offers; to determine what is "reasonable", get more offers.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by oilrig »

Freetime76 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:14 pm
Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm I have two daughters. They are accountants not engineers. We encouraged our daughters to counter their first job offer. Both did and their counters were accepted. Most women generally make less than their male peers. A counter of 4-6% is generally accepted. The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate. Negotiating your first job offer will encourage her to negotiate promotions and future job offers. Most importantly it will encourage her to speak up, be heard and hold her own in her male dominated team.

Make a counter to get her over 70k.
This is important advice. Up the salary she wants (of any offer- there will be room), ask for a sign on bonus, ask about PTO and benefits cost to employees, watch the non-competes. Also critical, though you didn’t ask: does she like her would-be manager? First job, try to get a mentor-type person.

Salaries are tricky, if you start in the low end of the range at a company, you’ll stay there no matter what you do. So...as others said, negotiate, and also suggest she find a position and team that gets her experience she wants as a stepping stone. If she doesn’t like something, the world not end (not sure if she’s stressing out about it). Go get something else :wink:
This is very iffy advice. I agree one should always try and negotiate, but not just for the sake of negotiating. In the OP's case, his daughter is right out of school with no other offers. She has very little leverage in this situation. Im in HR and if an entry-level recent grad tried to negotiate for more money for no reason at all, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and the hiring team's mouth. I've seen it happen before.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by AerialWombat »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:01 pm The anecdotes are pointless, the offers are the offers; to determine what is "reasonable", get more offers.
+1. This really is the best answer to the OP’s question. Encourage daughter to get more offers.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by stoptothink »

oilrig wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:19 pm
Freetime76 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:14 pm
Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm I have two daughters. They are accountants not engineers. We encouraged our daughters to counter their first job offer. Both did and their counters were accepted. Most women generally make less than their male peers. A counter of 4-6% is generally accepted. The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate. Negotiating your first job offer will encourage her to negotiate promotions and future job offers. Most importantly it will encourage her to speak up, be heard and hold her own in her male dominated team.

Make a counter to get her over 70k.
This is important advice. Up the salary she wants (of any offer- there will be room), ask for a sign on bonus, ask about PTO and benefits cost to employees, watch the non-competes. Also critical, though you didn’t ask: does she like her would-be manager? First job, try to get a mentor-type person.

Salaries are tricky, if you start in the low end of the range at a company, you’ll stay there no matter what you do. So...as others said, negotiate, and also suggest she find a position and team that gets her experience she wants as a stepping stone. If she doesn’t like something, the world not end (not sure if she’s stressing out about it). Go get something else :wink:
This is very iffy advice. I agree one should always try and negotiate, but not just for the sake of negotiating. In the OP's case, his daughter is right out of school with no other offers. She has very little leverage in this situation. Im in HR and if an entry-level recent grad tried to negotiate for more money for no reason at all, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and the hiring team's mouth. I've seen it happen before.
All depends on demand. OP's daughter has 1 offer, if she can get a few more; absolutely, start negotiating. If a candidate just out of school with no experience asks me for more than the initial offer, I don't even respond and immediately go to candidate #2. It has happened several times in my experience, and a few times gotten a bit awkward because they usually come back asking if the original offer still exists (and it doesn't, cause I already hired my 2nd choice). I usually have some wiggle room when it comes to candidates with advanced degrees or experience, but the pay band is what it is for the newbies. Maybe it is different for smaller organizations.

...GET MORE OFFERS...
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by metacritic »

I agree with the below. Also, I will be shocked if someone new to the workforce can negotiate for an entry role. None of my friends with PhDs in STEM fields have negotiated an entry level salary. The key is to find a place where one can acquire new skills, broad networks, and good stories of experience. Those are used to leverage internal or external opportunities later.
stoptothink wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:54 pm
gr7070 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm $65k would seem to be a reasonable starting salary in typical COLAs. Boston being rather HCOL would have that $65k appear low.

That being said, I don't know Boston. It's possible that there's something about the Boston market and mechanical engineering that makes the starting ME jobs lower paid than expected. I doubt that's the case, but it's possible.
I am not biomedical engineer (senior director in mid-size health company, most of my employers are biologists and chemists/chemical engineers), but my star employee did her undergrad in biomed and is starting her PhD in biotech at Johns Hopkins this fall - I know what I was able to pay her. As someone who is in upper management in a 4,000 employee STEM company in a MCOL area, the idea that $68k/yr for a recent grad with no experience is low is insane to me; that's ~20k more than I have ever been able to offer anybody in a similar situation. And a quick Google search suggests that $68k/yr is crazy high for new engineers in my area. Salary discussions on this board are generally a different world to me.
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Re: Daughter's Boston Job Offer

Post by KyleAAA »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:29 pm
oilrig wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:19 pm
Freetime76 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:14 pm
Sailorgirl wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:48 pm I have two daughters. They are accountants not engineers. We encouraged our daughters to counter their first job offer. Both did and their counters were accepted. Most women generally make less than their male peers. A counter of 4-6% is generally accepted. The important task learned in this whole process is to negotiate. Negotiating your first job offer will encourage her to negotiate promotions and future job offers. Most importantly it will encourage her to speak up, be heard and hold her own in her male dominated team.

Make a counter to get her over 70k.
This is important advice. Up the salary she wants (of any offer- there will be room), ask for a sign on bonus, ask about PTO and benefits cost to employees, watch the non-competes. Also critical, though you didn’t ask: does she like her would-be manager? First job, try to get a mentor-type person.

Salaries are tricky, if you start in the low end of the range at a company, you’ll stay there no matter what you do. So...as others said, negotiate, and also suggest she find a position and team that gets her experience she wants as a stepping stone. If she doesn’t like something, the world not end (not sure if she’s stressing out about it). Go get something else :wink:
This is very iffy advice. I agree one should always try and negotiate, but not just for the sake of negotiating. In the OP's case, his daughter is right out of school with no other offers. She has very little leverage in this situation. Im in HR and if an entry-level recent grad tried to negotiate for more money for no reason at all, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and the hiring team's mouth. I've seen it happen before.
All depends on demand. OP's daughter has 1 offer, if she can get a few more; absolutely, start negotiating. If a candidate just out of school with no experience asks me for more than the initial offer, I don't even respond and immediately go to candidate #2. It has happened several times in my experience, and a few times gotten a bit awkward because they usually come back asking if the original offer still exists (and it doesn't, cause I already hired my 2nd choice). I usually have some wiggle room when it comes to candidates with advanced degrees or experience, but the pay band is what it is for the newbies. Maybe it is different for smaller organizations.

...GET MORE OFFERS...
I have never done this. Why would I discard my top candidate over a few thousand $$$? That makes no sense to me, and I've hired at the largest organizations in the world.
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