Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

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AdmiralAdama
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Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by AdmiralAdama »

Friend of mine I've known since I moved to her town at age 10. She is very well connected, a super saleswoman, generous with advice, no history of deceit. Recommended me for a prior contract a few years ago where I broke all records.

She has been trying to get me to help her in one of her current projects. It's a natural for me, but the thing is kind of a sorry [event --admin LadyGeek].
She's got a guy in charge of it that was hired due to him being a loyal guy to one of the main investors. They've also got a main vendor hired for similar reasons who's doing hack work. Lots of money is going down the drain. My friend knows its a problem. They are trying to just spend their way into "success." She's afraid it will fail.

But I've had concerns. Don't want to be in an impossible position. I would be going in as a consultant, so I would have no authority over her COO, and the vast majority of the money is flowing thru a vendor who is likely to see me as a threat. Not a great situation. So I've been putting her off.

She finally got me to go to her office and gave me the hard sell, ask me to do it for her, they have lots of money but no talent, etc.

I thought about it and felt because she is a long time friend and i owe her and she asked for the favor and she would be a great endorser going forward, i would see if i could make it work. I gave her a monthly number for my retainer plus a small monthly budget to hire freelance talent to actually make it a success. She instantly said yes and I said great and then i said let me talk to the COO to make sure he actually wants to work withe me which she assured me he does.

So i sit down with the COO and we have what seems like a good conversation. He brings up the $$ we agreed to and I confirm.

Then my friend emails me and says that she misunderstood (?) what I was asking and they only have 55% of what she agreed to on phone. But we "need you" and how can we make it work?

I'm pissed off that she's retracting the offer we agreed to. Is it because the COO just said it was too much? Not sure about the politics here.

Anyway, would you just walk away or try to make it a success by talking with her, splitting the difference, etc? Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid.

Once I get in, I'm fairly sure the whole thing gets easier because of my results. OTOH, could also go to crap because of the players.

What say you?
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Dan-in-Virginia
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Dan-in-Virginia »

Run away. I don’t see why your relationship with her is a priority. You should make business decisions based on a rational assessment and applying your best judgement. You assessed it pretty clearly. Why would you act in contradiction to your good judgement?
Last edited by Dan-in-Virginia on Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
KlangFool
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by KlangFool »

AdmiralAdama wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:35 pm
Anyway, would you just walk away or try to make it a success by talking with her, splitting the difference, etc? Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid.
AdmiralAdama,

Don't walk. Run away quickly!

<<Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid. >>

One more person in the sinking ship will not help anyone. It is just one more victim. If you want to help her, pull her out of the sinking ship later. It does her no good to be in the same sinking ship together.

For whatever reason, she does not have the political power to make your recommendation works. If she cannot get her way in making sure that you are paid, she cannot support you to get the solution implemented. Your sponsor is weak.

KlangFool
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getco
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by getco »

She just gave you an out by cutting her offer 50%, take the out.

Say you’re available for advice and want to help out as much as you can, but can’t commit to the project in an official capacity.

-g
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Cubicle
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Cubicle »

She & the COO agreed to your number. I'd mention that "the 3 of us should sit down & agree on a number before we move forward".

Otherwise you can be an "opinionated outsider".
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TropikThunder
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by TropikThunder »

getco wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:53 pm She just gave you an out by cutting her offer 50%, take the out.

Say you’re available for advice and want to help out as much as you can, but can’t commit to the project in an official capacity.

-g
+1. Take the exit ramp.

"I'm sorry too, but after careful consideration and out of respect for our history I quoted what I consider to be the bare minimum budget this effort needs to be successful. Initially you and the COO both agreed, but if things have changed (or there was a misunderstanding) and that offer is no longer available, then I will have to respectfully decline to participate. I don't want to waste your money or either of our time pursuing something I don't think will succeed."

or somesuch ......
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Mactheriverrat
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Mactheriverrat »

If there are problems ( RED FLAGS ) now. They are not going to get better as time goes by.

RUN!
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Brianmcg321
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Pass.

It's only going to get worse.

Either they are so inept at communicating and can't understand simple things, or they are lying to you "Oops, we misunderstood..." doesn't wash with me.
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smitcat
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by smitcat »

AdmiralAdama wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:35 pm Friend of mine I've known since I moved to her town at age 10. She is very well connected, a super saleswoman, generous with advice, no history of deceit. Recommended me for a prior contract a few years ago where I broke all records.

She has been trying to get me to help her in one of her current projects. It's a natural for me, but the thing is kind of a sorry [event --admin LadyGeek].
She's got a guy in charge of it that was hired due to him being a loyal guy to one of the main investors. They've also got a main vendor hired for similar reasons who's doing hack work. Lots of money is going down the drain. My friend knows its a problem. They are trying to just spend their way into "success." She's afraid it will fail.

But I've had concerns. Don't want to be in an impossible position. I would be going in as a consultant, so I would have no authority over her COO, and the vast majority of the money is flowing thru a vendor who is likely to see me as a threat. Not a great situation. So I've been putting her off.

She finally got me to go to her office and gave me the hard sell, ask me to do it for her, they have lots of money but no talent, etc.

I thought about it and felt because she is a long time friend and i owe her and she asked for the favor and she would be a great endorser going forward, i would see if i could make it work. I gave her a monthly number for my retainer plus a small monthly budget to hire freelance talent to actually make it a success. She instantly said yes and I said great and then i said let me talk to the COO to make sure he actually wants to work withe me which she assured me he does.

So i sit down with the COO and we have what seems like a good conversation. He brings up the $$ we agreed to and I confirm.

Then my friend emails me and says that she misunderstood (?) what I was asking and they only have 55% of what she agreed to on phone. But we "need you" and how can we make it work?

I'm pissed off that she's retracting the offer we agreed to. Is it because the COO just said it was too much? Not sure about the politics here.

Anyway, would you just walk away or try to make it a success by talking with her, splitting the difference, etc? Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid.

Once I get in, I'm fairly sure the whole thing gets easier because of my results. OTOH, could also go to crap because of the players.

What say you?
"Anyway, would you just walk away or try to make it a success by talking with her, splitting the difference, etc? Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid."
Do not take the job, it would have been best if you never agreed to it in the first place.

"Once I get in, I'm fairly sure the whole thing gets easier because of my results."
I have been in these positions and have no idea why you would believe this. You own posts indicates a hack product and top line folks hired only due to relationships. This is a loser from the start.

"But I've had concerns. Don't want to be in an impossible position"
Great insight - get out now and stay out completely.
Good luck
Sic Vis Pacem
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Sic Vis Pacem »

Sounds like you know the answer to this one.

If you decide to take it, get a retainer and don't let your invoices get out more than 30 days.

Good luck.
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galving
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by galving »

"No thanks. Good luck with your project."

Don't even waste another second thinking about it.
There's going to be other jobs, and it didn't seem that you really wanted to be involved especially if you were going to be dealing with the dysfunctional politics.

Can you imagine attempting to buy a car or house for 55% of the previously agreed price?
How far do you think the dealer would let that go?
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Watty
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Watty »

AdmiralAdama wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:35 pm .....and they only have 55% of what she agreed to on phone.
It sounds more like they are having cash problems than they don't want to pay you what you agreed on.

It was a totally different situation since I was a software developer but I once took a job at a company that had lots of computer problems but that is why they needed me and I knew that when I took the job. Once I started working there it became obvious that they had a lot more computer problems than they had told me about in the interviews, which was no big surprise, and that they were not going to let me do some of the things that needed to be done to fix the problems since it would likely have cost several people their jobs.

After a month on the job I started looking for another job and within three months I quit to work somewhere else. Within two years the company was out of business largely because of the computer problems.

If I had stayed there that would have been a major blot on my resume since it would have looked like the computer problems were at least in part my fault.

Not that it is a good idea, or that they could or would agree to it, but the only way that I can see that this might work for you would be if they gave you part ownership in the company in exchange for working at a lower rate.
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Raymond
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Raymond »

As above, this situation is a hard "pass".

And please don't come back and tell us you did it anyway :(
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veindoc
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by veindoc »

I don’t know why you are torturing yourself.

I am 46 years old and only just learned in the last maybe 8 years that it’s best to just be brutally honest.

I don’t want to work with x,y person.
I absolutely have no interest.
I just don’t want to.
I want more money.

If you give an excuse other than the real one, people will try to resolve the excuses for you. They will allocate additional money, time, resources to get what they want done. And if the excuse you gave is not the real one, you are forced to make additional excuses.

Tell her flat out you don’t want to do it. Because she is your friend tell her why but don’t sign up for it.

Also don’t you have a reputation to uphold? When this fails as you expect it to, you really want your name attached to that sinking ship?
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Kenkat
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Kenkat »

I would try to determine what your real bottom line is.

You were willing to work for x. They offered you 55% of x.

If you really don’t want to do it, then you say sorry I really can’t go any lower than x.

If you are still interested, you’ve got to decide if you would do it for 80% of x, 70% of x? Because in that case, you could go back and say look, I can’t go any lower than 80% of x. I just can’t. Then it’s their move.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Tell her that you're going to do her a huge favor. Give her free advice right now.

Then tell her that what they need to do is fire the guy in charge and hire someone unconnected who is competent.

Then tell her to fire the hack vendor and hire a vendor who is competent.

Follow this up with "if either of these recommendations are unwelcome, then it's clear that this is a hobby to keep incompetent people busy rather than a profit making venture.".

Or you could tone that down, maybe.
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barnaclebob
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by barnaclebob »

If they "needed" you they wouldnt lowball you. Politely decline.
veindoc
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by veindoc »

barnaclebob wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:20 pm If they "needed" you they wouldnt lowball you. Politely decline.
+1. I am paying my practice manager a premium salary because I really needed and wanted her.
WildBill
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by WildBill »

Howdy

“I regret there was a misunderstanding. Good luck with the project”

No more need be said

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid
PoppyA
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by PoppyA »

What is it you MOST WANT, but are AFRAID YOU’LL GET?

Put MOST WANT, & AFRAID YOU’LL GET. On a balance scale. Which one weighs more? That will give you your answer.

In this example MOST WANT is a positive reason to do it. AFRAID YOU’LL GET is a negative reason not to do it.
Klmaxx
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Klmaxx »

Never do business w/ friends.
TallBoy29er
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by TallBoy29er »

You are going to have to do something really hard here. You're going to need to shoot straight with someone you respect and want the respect of, and tell her things you believe she does not want to hear.

You are not going to be able to get out with a simple "hasta la vista." You owe her the truth. From your post, I read it as though you know why your engagement would fail, whether the full budget be there or not. You need to tell her that.

I'm sorry for your difficult situation. Being a friend comes with burdens, being honest is one of those.
Dottie57
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Dottie57 »

Op,

If you work for this project, you have no authority. You are a consultant. Why you think you will be able to get results is beyond me. Don’t be a fool. Run away now.
WildBill
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by WildBill »

TallBoy29er wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:55 pm You are going to have to do something really hard here. You're going to need to shoot straight with someone you respect and want the respect of, and tell her things you believe she does not want to hear.

You are not going to be able to get out with a simple "hasta la vista." You owe her the truth. From your post, I read it as though you know why your engagement would fail, whether the full budget be there or not. You need to tell her that.

I'm sorry for your difficult situation. Being a friend comes with burdens, being honest is one of those.
Howdy

Complete nonsense

This “friend” pressured you to come on to a project, set you up with a string of promises then reneged and lowballed you after you agreed on terms.

Nothing is owed here except a polite refusal to be involved in this comedy. And your “friend” has some serious explaining to do, but I would not hold my breath waiting for it.

W B
"Through chances various, through all vicissitudes, we make our way." Virgil, The Aeneid
muffins14
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by muffins14 »

Either

a) they have plenty of money and are disrespecting you

Or

B) they don’t have money and are lying to you about their available cash
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Tamarind
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Tamarind »

Hard pass. This sounds like a kind of situation I have encountered professionally more than once. Never works out well for anyone except those who decline to get involved. I would not be at all surprised if the existing vendor was doing fine work until their invoices stopped being paid timely.
manatee2005
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by manatee2005 »

AdmiralAdama wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:35 pm Friend of mine I've known since I moved to her town at age 10. She is very well connected, a super saleswoman, generous with advice, no history of deceit. Recommended me for a prior contract a few years ago where I broke all records.

She has been trying to get me to help her in one of her current projects. It's a natural for me, but the thing is kind of a sorry [event --admin LadyGeek].
She's got a guy in charge of it that was hired due to him being a loyal guy to one of the main investors. They've also got a main vendor hired for similar reasons who's doing hack work. Lots of money is going down the drain. My friend knows its a problem. They are trying to just spend their way into "success." She's afraid it will fail.

But I've had concerns. Don't want to be in an impossible position. I would be going in as a consultant, so I would have no authority over her COO, and the vast majority of the money is flowing thru a vendor who is likely to see me as a threat. Not a great situation. So I've been putting her off.

She finally got me to go to her office and gave me the hard sell, ask me to do it for her, they have lots of money but no talent, etc.

I thought about it and felt because she is a long time friend and i owe her and she asked for the favor and she would be a great endorser going forward, i would see if i could make it work. I gave her a monthly number for my retainer plus a small monthly budget to hire freelance talent to actually make it a success. She instantly said yes and I said great and then i said let me talk to the COO to make sure he actually wants to work withe me which she assured me he does.

So i sit down with the COO and we have what seems like a good conversation. He brings up the $$ we agreed to and I confirm.

Then my friend emails me and says that she misunderstood (?) what I was asking and they only have 55% of what she agreed to on phone. But we "need you" and how can we make it work?

I'm pissed off that she's retracting the offer we agreed to. Is it because the COO just said it was too much? Not sure about the politics here.

Anyway, would you just walk away or try to make it a success by talking with her, splitting the difference, etc? Important to me to keep my relationship with her solid.

Once I get in, I'm fairly sure the whole thing gets easier because of my results. OTOH, could also go to crap because of the players.

What say you?
First she says they have lots of money but no talent. Then she says she only has 55% of what you agreed to. Sounds like BS to me. Then she says how can we make it work. Say simple, we make it work but you giving me 100% of what I asked.

I was in a similar situation. A friend of mine asked me to consult, I told her $300/hr, she said that's too much, I said fine. Her startup failed.
Fogbank
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Re: Advice Please: Easy Negotiations Just Turned Hairy

Post by Fogbank »

Greetings Bogleheads, long-time listener first-time caller.

Anyhow WRT the topic:

OP: Sounds like the COO currently has very little authority and had to run your hiring up the ladder to someone. Possibly the higher-up(s) is/are wise to the issues at hand. If the COO doesn't even have the juice to hire a consultant at what I am assuming is somewhere around market rate, I have to wonder how little authority he is granted with respect to other types of decision making. The "misunderstood your compensation requirements" excuse is laughable, and a 55% counter-offer is insulting.

Is he going to have to run every recommendation of yours up the ladder also? There are so many warning signs here, I'd have to take a pass. Sounds like they are in the midst of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I would stay on the dock rather than board...
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:15 pm Follow this up with "if either of these recommendations are unwelcome, then it's clear that this is a hobby to keep incompetent people busy rather than a profit making venture.".
Probably not far off the mark. :D
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