JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

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BeneIRA
Posts: 846
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:43 pm

Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by BeneIRA »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 pm
ThePointsGuy, the biggest Chase shill on the internet, values UR at $0.02/pt. But he doesn't value a single transfer partner's points of Chase at more the $0.017/pt. Go figure...
Not to defend the Points Guy's valuation, but clearly the value of being able to transfer to whole host of programs, some of which may have special award availability at a particular time, justifies valuing URs higher than any single partner points.
If I have $1 worth of real estate, gold, food, etc versus a $1 bill, is that $1 bill worth more because I can turn it into those things? No, it's still worth a dollar. Valuing UR at 1.7 cents per point is fair, but 2 cents is ridiculous. TPG obviously gets more than that because he is booking ultra luxury everything that few would ever pay for in cash.
palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

1. The various insurances that come with CSR may be worth it. I have used it on a few occasions. One time a flight was canceled on Spirit (horrible airline) on a Tuesday....I was stuck at the airport at midnight and the soonest they were willing to fly me home was the following Saturday, with no reimbursement for my expenses. Instead I booked a hotel that night, and a flight home the following day on a different airline. Chase reimbursed me in full for my hotel, additional flight expense and food. I also had my car towed a few times over the past few years and each time Chase paid the bill.

And the travel health insurance could potentially be very valuable.

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

3. The bang for the buck is all in signup bonuses. At, say, $0.02 per dollar spent on a hypothetical card, that is still only $200 per $10K spent, and as somebody else pointed out, the value of the points is a bit of "marketing math" because you might have found a better option if you got to pay with cash instead of points. When you compare that to a card with, say $.015/$ spent or $.03/$ spent, the difference is pretty trivial.

In the past it was much easier to churn cards and get the promo bonuses which were huge. I imagine that the CC companies were making money by raking in a lot of people with promises of a free flight and then collecting 21% interest on their balances for the rest of their life. But once enough frugal people like us learned how to game the system via forums such as these, their profits plummeted, so now it is harder to churn, benefits have been slashed and surcharges, limited seats, increased annual fees etc. have vastly reduced the value of the cards. We were lucky to get into the game when it was still hugely profitable but those days are over. Even Priority Pass lounges have become inconvenient and hard to find.

The only bang for the buck is really in the promos- the rest (i.e. day-to-day spending) is not insignificant but no big whoop. I am considering switching my whole strategy, canceling CSR, keeping a Chase trifecta of the $95/yr Sapphire (or maybe keep CSR instead), Freedom and Freedom Unl. , and finding the best free cash back card available to use day to day. When I run low on points, hopefully I will be well past 5/24 and can then churn again to the best of my ability if it is still worth it. Meanwhile I have enough UR to last me quite awhile.

Thoughts?
Are you sure that you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners? I called Chase yesterday and was told I could make a product change to Sapphire Preferred or Freedom or Freedom Unlimited and keep and use all my UR points.

How would you use the Chase Trifecta? Another approach is to get the Alliant Signature Visa and get out of the points game, and then find better options by paying cash.

What is the problem in finding Priority Pass lounges? Is there another way to get the Priority Pass lounges without CSR?
You can still use the UR points, but you need a card like the Sapphire Preferred or Reserve or one of the business cards to transfer them to partners. You could cash out for Amazon or 1 cent per point with any card, though.

Priority Pass in the U.S. is not great. There are very few in not very many airports. Overseas is where the value in Priority Pass is.

I'll be a broken record, but for most people the $300 travel benefit is not worth $300. Use the credit on Delta flights? BJs and Costco just had 10-15% off gift cards. Uber? Constantly 10% off gift cards at least. Southwest? Frequent sales for 10% off gift cards. Hotels? Hotels.com gift cards go on sale regularly for 15% off. Some people use the credit on tolls, parking, flights on airlines without gift cards and that's fair, value it at $300.

Never mentioned is that the CSP usually comes with a $60 retention credit bringing the annual fee down to $35.
palanzo
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by palanzo »

BeneIRA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 pm
ThePointsGuy, the biggest Chase shill on the internet, values UR at $0.02/pt. But he doesn't value a single transfer partner's points of Chase at more the $0.017/pt. Go figure...
Not to defend the Points Guy's valuation, but clearly the value of being able to transfer to whole host of programs, some of which may have special award availability at a particular time, justifies valuing URs higher than any single partner points.
If I have $1 worth of real estate, gold, food, etc versus a $1 bill, is that $1 bill worth more because I can turn it into those things? No, it's still worth a dollar. Valuing UR at 1.7 cents per point is fair, but 2 cents is ridiculous. TPG obviously gets more than that because he is booking ultra luxury everything that few would ever pay for in cash.
palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

1. The various insurances that come with CSR may be worth it. I have used it on a few occasions. One time a flight was canceled on Spirit (horrible airline) on a Tuesday....I was stuck at the airport at midnight and the soonest they were willing to fly me home was the following Saturday, with no reimbursement for my expenses. Instead I booked a hotel that night, and a flight home the following day on a different airline. Chase reimbursed me in full for my hotel, additional flight expense and food. I also had my car towed a few times over the past few years and each time Chase paid the bill.

And the travel health insurance could potentially be very valuable.

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

3. The bang for the buck is all in signup bonuses. At, say, $0.02 per dollar spent on a hypothetical card, that is still only $200 per $10K spent, and as somebody else pointed out, the value of the points is a bit of "marketing math" because you might have found a better option if you got to pay with cash instead of points. When you compare that to a card with, say $.015/$ spent or $.03/$ spent, the difference is pretty trivial.

In the past it was much easier to churn cards and get the promo bonuses which were huge. I imagine that the CC companies were making money by raking in a lot of people with promises of a free flight and then collecting 21% interest on their balances for the rest of their life. But once enough frugal people like us learned how to game the system via forums such as these, their profits plummeted, so now it is harder to churn, benefits have been slashed and surcharges, limited seats, increased annual fees etc. have vastly reduced the value of the cards. We were lucky to get into the game when it was still hugely profitable but those days are over. Even Priority Pass lounges have become inconvenient and hard to find.

The only bang for the buck is really in the promos- the rest (i.e. day-to-day spending) is not insignificant but no big whoop. I am considering switching my whole strategy, canceling CSR, keeping a Chase trifecta of the $95/yr Sapphire (or maybe keep CSR instead), Freedom and Freedom Unl. , and finding the best free cash back card available to use day to day. When I run low on points, hopefully I will be well past 5/24 and can then churn again to the best of my ability if it is still worth it. Meanwhile I have enough UR to last me quite awhile.

Thoughts?
Are you sure that you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners? I called Chase yesterday and was told I could make a product change to Sapphire Preferred or Freedom or Freedom Unlimited and keep and use all my UR points.

How would you use the Chase Trifecta? Another approach is to get the Alliant Signature Visa and get out of the points game, and then find better options by paying cash.

What is the problem in finding Priority Pass lounges? Is there another way to get the Priority Pass lounges without CSR?
You can still use the UR points, but you need a card like the Sapphire Preferred or Reserve or one of the business cards to transfer them to partners. You could cash out for Amazon or 1 cent per point with any card, though.

Priority Pass in the U.S. is not great. There are very few in not very many airports. Overseas is where the value in Priority Pass is.

I'll be a broken record, but for most people the $300 travel benefit is not worth $300. Use the credit on Delta flights? BJs and Costco just had 10-15% off gift cards. Uber? Constantly 10% off gift cards at least. Southwest? Frequent sales for 10% off gift cards. Hotels? Hotels.com gift cards go on sale regularly for 15% off. Some people use the credit on tolls, parking, flights on airlines without gift cards and that's fair, value it at $300.

Never mentioned is that the CSP usually comes with a $60 retention credit bringing the annual fee down to $35.
Thanks for explaining the issue with transferring points to partners. Agreed that Priority Pass shines overseas.

How do you go about getting the retention credit on CSP?
BeneIRA
Posts: 846
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by BeneIRA »

palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:52 pm
BeneIRA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 pm
ThePointsGuy, the biggest Chase shill on the internet, values UR at $0.02/pt. But he doesn't value a single transfer partner's points of Chase at more the $0.017/pt. Go figure...
Not to defend the Points Guy's valuation, but clearly the value of being able to transfer to whole host of programs, some of which may have special award availability at a particular time, justifies valuing URs higher than any single partner points.
If I have $1 worth of real estate, gold, food, etc versus a $1 bill, is that $1 bill worth more because I can turn it into those things? No, it's still worth a dollar. Valuing UR at 1.7 cents per point is fair, but 2 cents is ridiculous. TPG obviously gets more than that because he is booking ultra luxury everything that few would ever pay for in cash.
palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

1. The various insurances that come with CSR may be worth it. I have used it on a few occasions. One time a flight was canceled on Spirit (horrible airline) on a Tuesday....I was stuck at the airport at midnight and the soonest they were willing to fly me home was the following Saturday, with no reimbursement for my expenses. Instead I booked a hotel that night, and a flight home the following day on a different airline. Chase reimbursed me in full for my hotel, additional flight expense and food. I also had my car towed a few times over the past few years and each time Chase paid the bill.

And the travel health insurance could potentially be very valuable.

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

3. The bang for the buck is all in signup bonuses. At, say, $0.02 per dollar spent on a hypothetical card, that is still only $200 per $10K spent, and as somebody else pointed out, the value of the points is a bit of "marketing math" because you might have found a better option if you got to pay with cash instead of points. When you compare that to a card with, say $.015/$ spent or $.03/$ spent, the difference is pretty trivial.

In the past it was much easier to churn cards and get the promo bonuses which were huge. I imagine that the CC companies were making money by raking in a lot of people with promises of a free flight and then collecting 21% interest on their balances for the rest of their life. But once enough frugal people like us learned how to game the system via forums such as these, their profits plummeted, so now it is harder to churn, benefits have been slashed and surcharges, limited seats, increased annual fees etc. have vastly reduced the value of the cards. We were lucky to get into the game when it was still hugely profitable but those days are over. Even Priority Pass lounges have become inconvenient and hard to find.

The only bang for the buck is really in the promos- the rest (i.e. day-to-day spending) is not insignificant but no big whoop. I am considering switching my whole strategy, canceling CSR, keeping a Chase trifecta of the $95/yr Sapphire (or maybe keep CSR instead), Freedom and Freedom Unl. , and finding the best free cash back card available to use day to day. When I run low on points, hopefully I will be well past 5/24 and can then churn again to the best of my ability if it is still worth it. Meanwhile I have enough UR to last me quite awhile.

Thoughts?
Are you sure that you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners? I called Chase yesterday and was told I could make a product change to Sapphire Preferred or Freedom or Freedom Unlimited and keep and use all my UR points.

How would you use the Chase Trifecta? Another approach is to get the Alliant Signature Visa and get out of the points game, and then find better options by paying cash.

What is the problem in finding Priority Pass lounges? Is there another way to get the Priority Pass lounges without CSR?
You can still use the UR points, but you need a card like the Sapphire Preferred or Reserve or one of the business cards to transfer them to partners. You could cash out for Amazon or 1 cent per point with any card, though.

Priority Pass in the U.S. is not great. There are very few in not very many airports. Overseas is where the value in Priority Pass is.

I'll be a broken record, but for most people the $300 travel benefit is not worth $300. Use the credit on Delta flights? BJs and Costco just had 10-15% off gift cards. Uber? Constantly 10% off gift cards at least. Southwest? Frequent sales for 10% off gift cards. Hotels? Hotels.com gift cards go on sale regularly for 15% off. Some people use the credit on tolls, parking, flights on airlines without gift cards and that's fair, value it at $300.

Never mentioned is that the CSP usually comes with a $60 retention credit bringing the annual fee down to $35.
Thanks for explaining the issue with transferring points to partners. Agreed that Priority Pass shines overseas.

How do you go about getting the retention credit on CSP?
If you have the card, after the annual fee posts, call into Chase and say you are considering cancelling the card and they'll see if there are any offers on your account. It is possible you'll have the offer for a $60 statement credit to offset the annual fee.
SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

BeneIRA wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 pm
ThePointsGuy, the biggest Chase shill on the internet, values UR at $0.02/pt. But he doesn't value a single transfer partner's points of Chase at more the $0.017/pt. Go figure...
Not to defend the Points Guy's valuation, but clearly the value of being able to transfer to whole host of programs, some of which may have special award availability at a particular time, justifies valuing URs higher than any single partner points.
If I have $1 worth of real estate, gold, food, etc versus a $1 bill, is that $1 bill worth more because I can turn it into those things? No, it's still worth a dollar.
Yes, a dollar worth of food, or of any other consumable item (points are consumables, not exactly investments, so I think that's the appropriate comparison) is worth less to me than a dollar unless I have immediate need of the food or the like. A dollar can be converted into food, or clothes, those cannot normally be converted back easily, if at all, in a non barter economy. The same would likely hold for gold jewelry (a consumable). Even RE has sales/transfer costs that means a house you buy in $$ isn't worth that many $$ immediately. So to carry the analogy further, a dollar is worth a dollar, but what you transfer it to may be worth less even if you bought it for a dollar.

But more importantly, I'd be willing to exchange points that I have in (say) United for Ultimate Rewards for the redemption ratio. Ditto for most of the other partners that I have points in (probably for all, but I haven't checked redemption ratios for all). I think you'll find very few people who won't be willing to do that, except of course, those who want to use those miles/hotel points immediately.

The reported AA lockdown brings up another point in favor of transferable points. If a crackdown like that happens for United, and even if you have notice, very little you can do except blow those points on shopping or donate to charity. For UR, you can transfer to a partner (assuming your UR account isn't locked) if you are apprehensive.

I am not defending the Points Guy's valuation, I don't really care for any outside valuation since valuation is so subjective. I'm simply pointing out that there are very good reasons to value URs, or MRs higher than the max valuation of the partner programs.
MindBogler
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by MindBogler »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
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VictoriaF
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by VictoriaF »

protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:02 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:54 pm
My typical redemption is 60k miles in United Economy for trans-Atlantic round-trip flights. In the past, I was paying anywhere from $1,200 to $2,000 for these flights. Thus, my redemption is at least 2c/mile.

It's possible that the revenue-based redemption may require me to use more miles for these flights, but even then, using miles provides me with more flexibility than paying cash.

Victoria
Wow....that sounds very high for coach transatlantic flights. But maybe not.
I don't look for the cheapest flights. My main criteria is to maximize my sleep. After I've discovered day flights, they became my primary means of going to Europe. On the way back, I don't like to catch early morning flights, and fly from Europe no earlier than 11 am.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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VictoriaF
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by VictoriaF »

protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

1. The various insurances that come with CSR may be worth it. I have used it on a few occasions. One time a flight was canceled on Spirit (horrible airline) on a Tuesday....I was stuck at the airport at midnight and the soonest they were willing to fly me home was the following Saturday, with no reimbursement for my expenses. Instead I booked a hotel that night, and a flight home the following day on a different airline. Chase reimbursed me in full for my hotel, additional flight expense and food. I also had my car towed a few times over the past few years and each time Chase paid the bill.
Was it difficult to claim travel reimbursement? Some blog comments indicate that Chase-provided insurance is difficult to collect.

Was towing due to car malfunction or improper parking?
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm 2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.
In a month, I'll reach 48 months since collecting a Sapphire bonus and will apply for either CSP or CSR. If CSR increases the sign-up bonus, I'll get it. Even if $155 is not worth it, I like the convenience of having a single travel card with 3% return and the peace of mind with its travel protections.
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm3. The bang for the buck is all in signup bonuses. At, say, $0.02 per dollar spent on a hypothetical card, that is still only $200 per $10K spent, and as somebody else pointed out, the value of the points is a bit of "marketing math" because you might have found a better option if you got to pay with cash instead of points. When you compare that to a card with, say $.015/$ spent or $.03/$ spent, the difference is pretty trivial.
Have you considered a new Chase MileagePlus Business card offering 100k United miles?

Victoria
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VictoriaF
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by VictoriaF »

WhiteMaxima wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:34 pm Summer is always expensive. But summer is not the best season for european travel: expensive , crowd, hot. I prefer travel in spring and fall. cheap and weather is pleasant. Winter travel durimg Christmas is also very fun and interesting. Avoid crowd and expensive summer travel.
I like Europe in summer, because the weather is much better than in most of the U.S. Also, I have an annual European event in August that I like to attend.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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WhiteMaxima
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by WhiteMaxima »

jainn wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:00 pm
WhiteMaxima wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:45 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:36 pm
EddyB wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:30 pm
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Wow....that sounds very high for coach transatlantic flights. But maybe not.
Price a summer trip from the west coast to Europe and tell me whether you still think that's expensive.
I just priced a bunch of itineraries in June and July:

SFO to Vienna
SFO to Venice
SFO to Paris
LAX to Vienna
LAX to Venice
LAX to Paris

All priced between $750 and $1300.
Good to be retired to get a $750 trip. rent an AirBNB for $800/month in Europe heartland is not expensive than America.
$27/night ($24 EUR/nt) Airbnb? Gross. No thank you!
Long term lease (3 months or more). immerse living (live and eat like local). No expensive place (Swiss, UK, Danmark, Norway). You would be amazed how much will get you in EU for $800/month.
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
Are you sure that you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners? I called Chase yesterday and was told I could make a product change to Sapphire Preferred or Freedom or Freedom Unlimited and keep and use all my UR points.
Not positive, but that is what I recall when I looked into it years ago.
How would you use the Chase Trifecta? Another approach is to get the Alliant Signature Visa and get out of the points game, and then find better options by paying cash.
Freedom for category spending.
Freedom Unl. for everything that did not offer 2x or more points via Sapphire.
Sapphire for dining, restaurants.
What is the problem in finding Priority Pass lounges? Is there another way to get the Priority Pass lounges without CSR?
Nothing to do with CSR....my experience lately has been that it has been much harder than in the past to find PP lounges when I fly, or they are in different terminals far from the gate....Maybe that is just my experience, I don't know .
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

VictoriaF wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:37 am

Was it difficult to claim travel reimbursement? Some blog comments indicate that Chase-provided insurance is difficult to collect.
It was easy for me to collect, but they required significant documentation. Probably took an hour or two of my time.
Was towing due to car malfunction or improper parking?
The former.


Have you considered a new Chase MileagePlus Business card offering 100k United miles?
Yes, but I forgot about that. Good option.
H-Town
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by H-Town »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:03 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:45 pm
ThePointsGuy, the biggest Chase shill on the internet, values UR at $0.02/pt. But he doesn't value a single transfer partner's points of Chase at more the $0.017/pt. Go figure...
Not to defend the Points Guy's valuation, but clearly the value of being able to transfer to whole host of programs, some of which may have special award availability at a particular time, justifies valuing URs higher than any single partner points.
The Points Guy's way of redemption is such a turn off for me. He's all about luxurious bookings, which can burn through all the points with a single click. I'm on the opposite spectrum. I maximize the number of nights or flights for the amount of points I have.
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

protagonist wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:57 pm
VictoriaF wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:37 am

Was it difficult to claim travel reimbursement? Some blog comments indicate that Chase-provided insurance is difficult to collect.
It was easy for me to collect, but they required significant documentation. Probably took an hour or two of my time.
Was towing due to car malfunction or improper parking?
The former.


Have you considered a new Chase MileagePlus Business card offering 100k United miles?
Yes, but I forgot about that. Good option. I only fly one or two times a year these days and have plenty of points so I have not stayed on top of all of this stuff like I used to when I was churning a lot. Like you I may wind up just sticking with CSR for the benefits and due to inertia, I don't know.

The older I get the less effort I want to put into saving money. Time is my money and it is precious and limited.
Jags4186
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by Jags4186 »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:39 pm I am not defending the Points Guy's valuation, I don't really care for any outside valuation since valuation is so subjective. I'm simply pointing out that there are very good reasons to value URs, or MRs higher than the max valuation of the partner programs.
Yes, it is obvious that more options increases utility but trying to boil it down to a set cents per point is futile.

FrequentMiler offers a much more nuances and even keeled approach.

https://frequentmiler.boardingarea.com/ ... lues-rrvs/
the way
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by the way »

MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
heh this post seems to come back every 50 posts or so. Look, if you spend $300 on a personal ticket and the CSR reimburses it, you can think of it one of two ways: either that you got the ticket for free (and the annual fee for $550) or you got the annual fee for $250 (and a ticket for $300). But if you spend $300 on business and your company reimburses it, and then CSR does too, then you only have one choice: you got the annual fee for $250. Ignore the ticket.
MindBogler wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:26 am Now by this same logic, if I spend my first $300/yr on work related expenses, and both my company and Chase reimburse me $300 each, I am net $50 on $550 fee.
You're somehow making up an additional $300 credit in your mind. Why stop there? Say you expensed $500 and got $500 back from the company and $300 back from CSR. By your logic the annual fee is now -$250! And then you expense a trip to Europe for $3k, now your annual fee is -$3250! C'mon!
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VictoriaF
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by VictoriaF »

protagonist wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:53 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:42 pm
Are you sure that you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners? I called Chase yesterday and was told I could make a product change to Sapphire Preferred or Freedom or Freedom Unlimited and keep and use all my UR points.
Not positive, but that is what I recall when I looked into it years ago.
If you don't have an AF-based UR card, you can still can accumulate and store UR points, but you can't transfer them to airline or hotel partners.

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TravelGeek
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by TravelGeek »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:35 pm
Yes, it is obvious that more options increases utility but trying to boil it down to a set cents per point is futile.
Yup. I like having a diversified portfolio of miles and points (and bank points like UR and MR are a key part of that strategy) because it increases my ability/likelihood of actually get any meaningful value from my award points.
H-Town wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:58 pm The Points Guy's way of redemption is such a turn off for me. He's all about luxurious bookings, which can burn through all the points with a single click.
If you can actually find the premium class award seats that you see featured in TPG infomercials.
hoffse
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by hoffse »

My husband and I were early adopters of the CSR - we each got the 100k sign up bonus when it first came out - and we have really enjoyed having it. The increase to the annual fee does make us pause though. We have recently opened a Schwab AmEx platinum for lounge access and the 5x multiplier on airfare. AmEx’s credits are not nearly as easy to use as Chase’s, but my husband travels for work 6-8 times per year, almost always at the last minute (so airfare is $$$), and he gets reimbursed for things like bag fees and seat upgrades. We also happen to live within 5 miles of a Saks. So I think we will have an easier time than most using those credits.

We went with Schwab so I can cash out the points at a 1.25x multiplier and get real cash in our brokerage account. We have a young child now and gone are the days when we take the flight with 2 layovers to get to our destination in order to use transferable points. These days we pick the flight that’s shortest or has the best layover schedule relative to our kiddo’s nap schedule... that’s a more pleasant experience for everybody on board!

I do always check to see if transferable points work, but being locked into specific dates and travel times means I use most of our UR points through the travel portal these days. I view them as a semi-cash equivalent that I can exchange for our annual family vacation. I do occasionally transfer to Hyatt or Southwest when it accommodates our itinerary, but I don’t go out of my way for it. So I personally value these points at 1.5cents because that’s how they are valued through the portal.

Our annual fee posts in December, so we are going to hang onto it for the rest of the year and see if moving our flight expenses to AmEx will gut the CSR enough to downgrade to CSP. We are keeping the AmEx regardless because the lounges are great for my husband, and but I have a hard time bringing myself to pay a high annual fee on 2 cards.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by UpperNwGuy »

hoffse wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:19 am I do always check to see if transferable points work, but being locked into specific dates and travel times means I use most of our UR points through the travel portal these days. I view them as a semi-cash equivalent that I can exchange for our annual family vacation. I do occasionally transfer to Hyatt or Southwest when it accommodates our itinerary, but I don’t go out of my way for it. So I personally value these points at 1.5cents because that’s how they are valued through the portal.
I use the 1.5 cents travel portal valuation, too. My actual redemptions, however, are almost always via transfer of Chase points to United miles because I live in a United hub city. I've found the value of United miles for economy flights to vary from slightly above 1.5 cents a mile to slightly under, so I use 1.5 cents for both Chase points and United miles.

I'll be downgrading my Sapphire Reserve to the Freedom when the next annual fee is billed on September 1. With the $100 fee increase, the math no longer works for me. My standard is 2% because that's what I can earn on any number of no-fee cash-back credit cards. With the old fee, I only needed $6,000 of travel/dining expenses to break the 2% barrier. With the new fee, I'll need to spend $10,000, and that's probably not going to happen most years.
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by azurik »

protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

...

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

...

Thoughts?
Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.

Sapphire Reserve:
$10,333 x 3 points per dollar = 31,000 Ultimate Rewards points
31,000 x 1.5 cents = $465

Sapphire Preferred:
$10,333 x 2 points per dollar = 20,666 Ultimate Rewards points
20,666 x 1.5 cents = $310

The difference between $465 and $310 is $155, which is the additional annual fee cost for the Sapphire Reserve.

Chase Sapphire Reserve: Is It Still Worth It?

No one (not even TPG secretly) values Chase at 2 cents per point.
xb7
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by xb7 »

azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.

Sapphire Reserve:
$10,333 x 3 points per dollar = 31,000 Ultimate Rewards points
31,000 x 1.5 cents = $465

Sapphire Preferred:
$10,333 x 2 points per dollar = 20,666 Ultimate Rewards points
20,666 x 1.5 cents = $310

The difference between $465 and $310 is $155, which is the additional annual fee cost for the Sapphire Reserve.

Chase Sapphire Reserve: Is It Still Worth It?

No one (not even TPG secretly) values Chase at 2 cents per point.
If I'm understanding your use of the 1.5 multiplier to mean using the points on the Chase Portal, note that the Sapphire Preferred doesn't give 1.5x but rather 1.25x on the Portal.
Retired CPA
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by Retired CPA »

This has been a most interesting thread, and I appreciate all of the well informed comments that have been posted, since we are new to the JPM Reserve card. From our perspective, it seems to me that the annual fee is paid for several times over just by using the trip cancellation benefits, since we travel only for leisure now, are of “the age” where any trip is subject to potential medical issues, therefore trip insurance is always purchased.
SuzBanyan
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by SuzBanyan »

Retired CPA wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:43 am This has been a most interesting thread, and I appreciate all of the well informed comments that have been posted, since we are new to the JPM Reserve card. From our perspective, it seems to me that the annual fee is paid for several times over just by using the trip cancellation benefits, since we travel only for leisure now, are of “the age” where any trip is subject to potential medical issues, therefore trip insurance is always purchased.
The problem with valuing the travel insurance is that the Chase Reserve card does not cover cancellations or interruptions for pre-existing medical conditions of the cardholder. As a result, you may find that it gives you less value as you age, because more and more medical conditions are probably “pre-existing.”
Retired CPA
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by Retired CPA »

SuzBanyan wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:15 am
Retired CPA wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:43 am This has been a most interesting thread, and I appreciate all of the well informed comments that have been posted, since we are new to the JPM Reserve card. From our perspective, it seems to me that the annual fee is paid for several times over just by using the trip cancellation benefits, since we travel only for leisure now, are of “the age” where any trip is subject to potential medical issues, therefore trip insurance is always purchased.
The problem with valuing the travel insurance is that the Chase Reserve card does not cover cancellations or interruptions for pre-existing medical conditions of the cardholder. As a result, you may find that it gives you less value as you age, because more and more medical conditions are probably “pre-existing.”
Ahhh, so it does not have a pre-existing condition waiver like the policies I purchase do?
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

Around five to ten years ago I almost always transferred points to partner airline programs or used miles instead of points. To Europe (for example) there was usually a wide choice of flights with very reasonable(if any) surcharges, costing in the 40-60K miles range RT, and often allowing free stopovers.
These days it seems to me, at least for the flying that I do (mostly international), that the best deals are usually to be had via the Chase portal using CSR points, at 1.5 UR points/dollar. Using miles, the "good deals" are often on inconvenient flights with high surcharges and almost always with no stopover allowed. Since Freedom Unlimited points are worth 2.25 points and category specific Freedom points are worth 7.5 points when transferred to CSR points and used for travel, I usually book through Chase rather than through the airline sites.

That said, I am considering the BoA Cash Rewards card ($200 sign up bonus plus 3% in category of your choice with option to change monthly and 2% in grocery stores). No annual fees . Groceries only get 1% with Chase cards. Any feelings about these cards?? And are there better options that I don't know about?

As I posted before, the bang for the buck with "points" or "miles" cards is all in the promos. For day to day spending, I am starting to think that a proverbial bird in the proverbial hand is worth two in the proverbial bush. Cash back may be the smart way to go. I'd keep the Chase trifecta for travel and restaurant expenses.

Thoughts?
Last edited by protagonist on Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
essbeer
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by essbeer »

azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.
Another option is the Ink Preffered. Still $95 like the CSP, but you get 3X travel like the CSR, you just lose the dining bonus. So you can look at it as you are paying $155 just for dining on the CSR. There are more good dining card options (Amex Gold) than travel card options.
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

essbeer wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:36 am
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.
Another option is the Ink Preffered. Still $95 like the CSP, but you get 3X travel like the CSR, you just lose the dining bonus. So you can look at it as you are paying $155 just for dining on the CSR. There are more good dining card options (Amex Gold) than travel card options.

If you combine it with BoA Cash Rewards you can choose dining at 3% cash back. You can change that every month (so if, for example, you were about to buy a computer online, you could change to online purchases that month). The BoA card is free and also offers a $200 sign up bonus.
You would be losing all the insurance perks you get with CSR as well as the option to redeem travel at 1.5x points. Or combine with Capital One Savor card- 4% on dining and entertainment . That's cash back....you don't have to wait until you buy a plane ticket.

Given how broadly CSR defines travel, $861 monthly on travel and dining translates to about $10K/year. I think I easily spend that. I think many people who play this credit card game probably do.

So I'm leaning towards keeping CSR (partly out of inertia- downgrading seems like a toss-up)... at least until I need points (and thus sign-up bonuses) for my travel needs- and adding BoA Cash Rewards for non-travel or dining expenses or stuff covered by quarterly Freedom categories. Between 2% for groceries and 3% for category expenses on BoA (eg online purchases), that should cover most things at at least 2% reimbursement. 2% immediate cash back is , IMHO, worth more than 3 (or more) points that must be used for specific purposes or lost, and subject to changes in rules, with an annual fee. Bird in the hand.....

It's a lot to think about.
Last edited by protagonist on Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
protagonist
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by protagonist »

Is the new Chase rule that you can only receive a sign-up bonus on any UR rewards card once every four years, but you can upgrade, downgrade, whatever as often as desired?

And does that also include business UR cards?

How about non-UR Chase branded cards?
hoffse
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by hoffse »

azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

...

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

...

Thoughts?
Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.

Sapphire Reserve:
$10,333 x 3 points per dollar = 31,000 Ultimate Rewards points
31,000 x 1.5 cents = $465

Sapphire Preferred:
$10,333 x 2 points per dollar = 20,666 Ultimate Rewards points
20,666 x 1.5 cents = $310

The difference between $465 and $310 is $155, which is the additional annual fee cost for the Sapphire Reserve.

Chase Sapphire Reserve: Is It Still Worth It?

No one (not even TPG secretly) values Chase at 2 cents per point.
The break-even is actually lower than that because you only get 1.25 cents per point through the Chase portal if you have the CSP. I calculate the break-even somewhere around $7,750/year in travel and dining:

CSR: $7,750 x 3 points = 23,250 --> worth $348.75 through the CSR portal at 1.5 cents per point
CSP: $7,750 x 2 points = 15,500 --> worth $193.75 through the CSP portal at 1.25 cents per point

The difference is the $155 you noted.
azurik
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by azurik »

xb7 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:40 am
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.

Sapphire Reserve:
$10,333 x 3 points per dollar = 31,000 Ultimate Rewards points
31,000 x 1.5 cents = $465

Sapphire Preferred:
$10,333 x 2 points per dollar = 20,666 Ultimate Rewards points
20,666 x 1.5 cents = $310

The difference between $465 and $310 is $155, which is the additional annual fee cost for the Sapphire Reserve.

Chase Sapphire Reserve: Is It Still Worth It?

No one (not even TPG secretly) values Chase at 2 cents per point.
If I'm understanding your use of the 1.5 multiplier to mean using the points on the Chase Portal, note that the Sapphire Preferred doesn't give 1.5x but rather 1.25x on the Portal.
Sorry, I should have made it more clear. The 1.5 multiplier is what I value a Chase point (1.5 cents). The TPG team does a lot of their analysis based on 2 cents a point. While I see that's possible, I don't believe the majority of people utilizing the points in ways to get to that level. I don't based it necessarily on the portal itself, but the average value on programs you can transfer it to (especially Hyatt + United).
azurik
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by azurik »

hoffse wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:38 pm
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 am
protagonist wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:25 pm A few points:

...

2. For those of us who have a lot of UR points, the question is not so much whether the card is worth $250/year as much as it is whether it is worth the $155 more that it will cost vs. the $95/yr Sapphire card, since you need to maintain a paid UR card to be able to transfer points from Freedom or Freedom Unlimited to partners. I'm not sure whether it is or not. It was def. worth $55 more in the past. If you use the food delivery service (reimbursing $60/yr) that could lower the additional annual premium difference to $95. I rarely use Lyft so I don't give that much value.

...

Thoughts?
Break-even is if you spend at least $861 per month on travel and dining. If you don't, it's better to get the Chase Sapphire Preferred in most cases.

Sapphire Reserve:
$10,333 x 3 points per dollar = 31,000 Ultimate Rewards points
31,000 x 1.5 cents = $465

Sapphire Preferred:
$10,333 x 2 points per dollar = 20,666 Ultimate Rewards points
20,666 x 1.5 cents = $310

The difference between $465 and $310 is $155, which is the additional annual fee cost for the Sapphire Reserve.

Chase Sapphire Reserve: Is It Still Worth It?

No one (not even TPG secretly) values Chase at 2 cents per point.
The break-even is actually lower than that because you only get 1.25 cents per point through the Chase portal if you have the CSP. I calculate the break-even somewhere around $7,750/year in travel and dining:

CSR: $7,750 x 3 points = 23,250 --> worth $348.75 through the CSR portal at 1.5 cents per point
CSP: $7,750 x 2 points = 15,500 --> worth $193.75 through the CSP portal at 1.25 cents per point

The difference is the $155 you noted.
But that's only if you're assigning the value based on the Chase portal. I can tell you personally I've never used it. If I'm not using points, I'm going through the AMEX Platinum card which gives me 5x points on flights.

If you ARE using the Chase portal exclusively, I can see how that makes sense. I don't consider portals though, rather, I consider what type of value I can get out of a Chase point in general.
essbeer
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by essbeer »

hoffse wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:38 pm The break-even is actually lower than that because you only get 1.25 cents per point through the Chase portal if you have the CSP. I calculate the break-even somewhere around $7,750/year in travel and dining:

CSR: $7,750 x 3 points = 23,250 --> worth $348.75 through the CSR portal at 1.5 cents per point
CSP: $7,750 x 2 points = 15,500 --> worth $193.75 through the CSP portal at 1.25 cents per point

The difference is the $155 you noted.
Since you don't earn points on the first $300 travel on the CSR, but you do on the CSP, wouldn't you want to include 600 points at 1.25 on the CSP? So the difference between them is actually 162.50?
muffins14
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by muffins14 »

MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
Yes, it is $250 if you think that items that cost $300 are worth as much as $300 cash.
If you spend your own $300 and are reimbursed for that $300 by chase, in effect you have a $300 item (like a plane ticket) and have paid a $550 fee so you're "out" $550 but have your "free" plane ticket.

in your business example, you still pay the first $300, its just that both your company and chase reimburse you for it. So you have paid a $550 fee, have a business trip that chase "paid for", and have $300 in your pocket because your business reimbursed you. But, you have no personal items to show for it. You're just at -$550 + $300 = $250 in the hold to chase.

Would you rather have a $250 balance on your card and zero personal items, or a $550 balance and a $300 personal item? What if you're certainly going to buy a $300 item later in the year anyway?

edited for attempted clarity
Last edited by muffins14 on Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
muffins14
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by muffins14 »

azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:55 pm But that's only if you're assigning the value based on the Chase portal. I can tell you personally I've never used it. If I'm not using points, I'm going through the AMEX Platinum card which gives me 5x points on flights.

If you ARE using the Chase portal exclusively, I can see how that makes sense. I don't consider portals though, rather, I consider what type of value I can get out of a Chase point in general.

We typically find the chase portal very useful. It's an easy 1.5x on your points, whereas the amount of time searching for the optimal travel partner combined with usually inflexible dates that limit award availability make the hassle not feel worth it for us to transfer.

Do you feel there are somewhat straightforward options that are better than the 1.5x per point? Which carriers or hotels?
MindBogler
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by MindBogler »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm in your business example, you still pay the first $300, it just that both your company and chase reimburse you for it. So you have paid a $550 fee, have a business trip, and have $300 in your pocket (not $600 since you had to pay off your credit card with one of those reimbursements), but have no personal items to show for it. You're just at -$550 + $300 = $250.

Would you rather have a $250 balance on your card and zero items, or a $550 balance and a $300 item?
You're getting closer to understanding. I have $300 of something that I had to buy either way. If I pay the $300 with your money am I better off or the same as using my own money? There is a benefit there whether you see it or not.
EnjoyIt
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by EnjoyIt »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm
MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
yes, it is $250 if you think that items that cost $300 are worth as much as $300 cash.
If you spend your own $300 and are reimbursed for that $300 by chase, in effect you have a $300 item (like a plane ticket) and have paid a $550 fee so you're out $250.

in your business example, you still pay the first $300, it just that both your company and chase reimburse you for it. So you have paid a $550 fee, have a business trip, and have $300 in your pocket (not $600 since you had to pay off your credit card with one of those reimbursements), but have no personal items to show for it. You're just at -$550 + $300 = $250.

Would you rather have a $250 balance on your card and zero items, or a $550 balance and a $300 item?
You start off with a $550 card. You are -$550
You buy a plane ticket for $300. You are now down -$850 plus have a plane ticket.
Your employer reimburses you $300 and chase reimburses you $300. You are now -$250 and have a plane ticket. Basically the plane ticket cost you $250 and you get a fancy credit card on top of that.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79939&start=400#p5275418
SuzBanyan
Posts: 366
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by SuzBanyan »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:08 pm
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:55 pm But that's only if you're assigning the value based on the Chase portal. I can tell you personally I've never used it. If I'm not using points, I'm going through the AMEX Platinum card which gives me 5x points on flights.

If you ARE using the Chase portal exclusively, I can see how that makes sense. I don't consider portals though, rather, I consider what type of value I can get out of a Chase point in general.

We typically find the chase portal very useful. It's an easy 1.5x on your points, whereas the amount of time searching for the optimal travel partner combined with usually inflexible dates that limit award availability make the hassle not feel worth it for us to transfer.

Do you feel there are somewhat straightforward options that are better than the 1.5x per point? Which carriers or hotels?
One straightforward option for me are Hyatt Hotels. I find I can usually save by transferring points to Hyatt.

I recently priced a last minute RT flight on a United route that always has good availability to book on points. Using United miles, it would be 24K points. Using the Chase Reserve portal, economy basic would be about 22K and standard economy would be about 26K points. As I value not having to check a bag, I transferred points to UA and booked with miles.
EddyB
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by EddyB »

EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:26 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm
MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
yes, it is $250 if you think that items that cost $300 are worth as much as $300 cash.
If you spend your own $300 and are reimbursed for that $300 by chase, in effect you have a $300 item (like a plane ticket) and have paid a $550 fee so you're out $250.

in your business example, you still pay the first $300, it just that both your company and chase reimburse you for it. So you have paid a $550 fee, have a business trip, and have $300 in your pocket (not $600 since you had to pay off your credit card with one of those reimbursements), but have no personal items to show for it. You're just at -$550 + $300 = $250.

Would you rather have a $250 balance on your card and zero items, or a $550 balance and a $300 item?
You start off with a $550 card. You are -$550
You buy a plane ticket for $300. You are now down -$850 plus have a plane ticket.
Your employer reimburses you $300 and chase reimburses you $300. You are now -$250 and have a plane ticket. Basically the plane ticket cost you $250 and you get a fancy credit card on top of that.
Except that you’re flying for work. Do you want to pay $250 to fly for work?
EnjoyIt
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by EnjoyIt »

EddyB wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:55 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:26 pm
muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm
MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
yes, it is $250 if you think that items that cost $300 are worth as much as $300 cash.
If you spend your own $300 and are reimbursed for that $300 by chase, in effect you have a $300 item (like a plane ticket) and have paid a $550 fee so you're out $250.

in your business example, you still pay the first $300, it just that both your company and chase reimburse you for it. So you have paid a $550 fee, have a business trip, and have $300 in your pocket (not $600 since you had to pay off your credit card with one of those reimbursements), but have no personal items to show for it. You're just at -$550 + $300 = $250.

Would you rather have a $250 balance on your card and zero items, or a $550 balance and a $300 item?
You start off with a $550 card. You are -$550
You buy a plane ticket for $300. You are now down -$850 plus have a plane ticket.
Your employer reimburses you $300 and chase reimburses you $300. You are now -$250 and have a plane ticket. Basically the plane ticket cost you $250 and you get a fancy credit card on top of that.
Except that you’re flying for work. Do you want to pay $250 to fly for work?
The other option is you don’t get a fancy credit card for $250. I guess it all depends if you want the fancy card because you are still flying for work no matter what.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79939&start=400#p5275418
azurik
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by azurik »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:08 pm
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:55 pm But that's only if you're assigning the value based on the Chase portal. I can tell you personally I've never used it. If I'm not using points, I'm going through the AMEX Platinum card which gives me 5x points on flights.

If you ARE using the Chase portal exclusively, I can see how that makes sense. I don't consider portals though, rather, I consider what type of value I can get out of a Chase point in general.

We typically find the chase portal very useful. It's an easy 1.5x on your points, whereas the amount of time searching for the optimal travel partner combined with usually inflexible dates that limit award availability make the hassle not feel worth it for us to transfer.

Do you feel there are somewhat straightforward options that are better than the 1.5x per point? Which carriers or hotels?
I find that Hyatt hotels and United flights give me a better value than the 1.5 cents that the portal gives. I hear you on the time it takes to find an award ticket though. I'm a former hardcore member of Flyertalk so knowing where to look and how to book the best flight comes second nature to me. It's only when my family and friends have a difficult time doing the same thing that I realized it's not for everyone (or it's a long learning curve).

For example, for my honeymoon a year ago, I booked a business class flight on Qatar (known for the best international business class flights with their QSuites) and 14 days at Hyatt Hadahaa in Maldives. The flight themselves were approaching $10k per ticket and a night at Hyatt Hadahaa in the high season were running $1,400 a night. We were getting way above the 1.5 cent rate.
02nz
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by 02nz »

MindBogler wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
muffins14 wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am
You’re still double-counting a reimbursement for work expenses:

-550 fee
0 ( spend 300 for work, get reimbursed 300 for work)
300 chase reimbursement

= 250 fee equivalent
Nope, I'm not. You are changing the math depending on the source of the spend. If you spend your own $300 is the fee net $250 or not? Why or why not?
So I've only followed this thread off and on, but I can't believe you're running around in circles on this! And it seems you briefly saw the light but then started running around in circles again.

The annual fee is $550, and as long as you spend $300 on travel, you get that reimbursed from Chase. Most people who would consider this card would spend $300 on travel regardless (i.e., without this card they would've put it on another card and not gotten it credited; that's the part that you seem not to get). So the net annual fee is really $250 (disregarding that you don't get points on the $300). Sure you can add say a hotel or plane ticket purchased for work to the cost side of the equation, but you get reimbursed for that by the employer, so it cancels out.

Now sure, if you weren't going to spend anything on travel, and got this $550 card and then bought a $300 plane ticket that was of no value to you only to get the credit from Chase, then your real cost is more than $250. But it's hard to imagine anybody getting this card doing that, esp. when there are so many ways of getting the credit (hotels, Uber/Lyft, transit, etc.).
Last edited by 02nz on Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by 02nz »

Maybe this example will help:

John and Jane each spends $500 on airfare this year. (It doesn't actually matter, but let's say it's for personal travel, not reimbursable by employer.)

John has a no-annual-fee card that doesn't have a travel credit. He puts the airfare on that card, net cost to him is $500 (minus maybe $10 in rewards that he got from that spend).

Jane has the Sapphire Reserve card with the $550 annual fee and $300 travel credit. She puts the airfare on that card. So her statement looks like this: $550 annual fee, $500 airfare, minus $300 travel credit. Net cost: 550 + 500 – 300 = 750, or $250 more than John's no-annual-fee card.
EnjoyIt
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by EnjoyIt »

azurik wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:07 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:08 pm
azurik wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:55 pm But that's only if you're assigning the value based on the Chase portal. I can tell you personally I've never used it. If I'm not using points, I'm going through the AMEX Platinum card which gives me 5x points on flights.

If you ARE using the Chase portal exclusively, I can see how that makes sense. I don't consider portals though, rather, I consider what type of value I can get out of a Chase point in general.

We typically find the chase portal very useful. It's an easy 1.5x on your points, whereas the amount of time searching for the optimal travel partner combined with usually inflexible dates that limit award availability make the hassle not feel worth it for us to transfer.

Do you feel there are somewhat straightforward options that are better than the 1.5x per point? Which carriers or hotels?
I find that Hyatt hotels and United flights give me a better value than the 1.5 cents that the portal gives. I hear you on the time it takes to find an award ticket though. I'm a former hardcore member of Flyertalk so knowing where to look and how to book the best flight comes second nature to me. It's only when my family and friends have a difficult time doing the same thing that I realized it's not for everyone (or it's a long learning curve).

For example, for my honeymoon a year ago, I booked a business class flight on Qatar (known for the best international business class flights with their QSuites) and 14 days at Hyatt Hadahaa in Maldives. The flight themselves were approaching $10k per ticket and a night at Hyatt Hadahaa in the high season were running $1,400 a night. We were getting way above the 1.5 cent rate.
How do you recommend someone like me to learn the ropes on figuring out the best way to use my UR points.

Normally I just get 2 business class tickets to where we are going on United. I’m willing to take the plung on some reading and learning.

I am a member of FlyerTalk and have participated a little bit and have had some questions answered in the past.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79939&start=400#p5275418
MindBogler
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by MindBogler »

02nz wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:43 am
So I've only followed this thread off and on, but I can't believe you're running around in circles on this! And it seems you briefly saw the light but then started running around in circles again.

The annual fee is $550, and as long as you spend $300 on travel, you get that reimbursed from Chase. Most people who would consider this card would spend $300 on travel regardless (i.e., without this card they would've put it on another card and not gotten it credited; that's the part that you seem not to get). So the net annual fee is really $250 (disregarding that you don't get points on the $300). Sure you can add say a hotel or plane ticket purchased for work to the cost side of the equation, but you get reimbursed for that by the employer, so it cancels out.
The issue here seems to be that people consider the $300 travel credit as reducing their $550 fee. Well, it only does that if you buy something for $300 that you consider valuable or would have needed. If you spend $300 just to get $300 back, it could be considered a waste. The problem with all of these arguments against me is that they assume the $300 was spent on something of no value, like a business hotel or airfare -- wrong.

You can easily get the $300 bonus simply by eating out for dinner. Let's use this example. I am traveling and I go out for a fancy dinner that I would not otherwise enjoy (I'm a frugal boglehead, right)? I spend $300 on dinner. Chase reimburses my $300 and so does my company. I am double dipping on this bonus so long as I buy something that I gain enjoyment from.

If you went to the same dinner and spent the same $300 you would receive the same enjoyment. The difference is I have an extra $300 in my pocket.
02nz
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by 02nz »

MindBogler wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:49 am
02nz wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:43 am
So I've only followed this thread off and on, but I can't believe you're running around in circles on this! And it seems you briefly saw the light but then started running around in circles again.

The annual fee is $550, and as long as you spend $300 on travel, you get that reimbursed from Chase. Most people who would consider this card would spend $300 on travel regardless (i.e., without this card they would've put it on another card and not gotten it credited; that's the part that you seem not to get). So the net annual fee is really $250 (disregarding that you don't get points on the $300). Sure you can add say a hotel or plane ticket purchased for work to the cost side of the equation, but you get reimbursed for that by the employer, so it cancels out.
The issue here seems to be that people consider the $300 travel credit as reducing their $550 fee. Well, it only does that if you buy something for $300 that you consider valuable or would have needed. If you spend $300 just to get $300 back, it could be considered a waste. The problem with all of these arguments against me is that they assume the $300 was spent on something of no value, like a business hotel or airfare -- wrong.

You can easily get the $300 bonus simply by eating out for dinner. Let's use this example. I am traveling and I go out for a fancy dinner that I would not otherwise enjoy (I'm a frugal boglehead, right)? I spend $300 on dinner. Chase reimburses my $300 and so does my company. I am double dipping on this bonus so long as I buy something that I gain enjoyment from.

If you went to the same dinner and spent the same $300 you would receive the same enjoyment. The difference is I have an extra $300 in my pocket.
A number of things wrong in your post, starting with the fact that the $300 travel credit won’t reimburse you for that fancy dinner. It’s called a travel credit because it applies to travel expenses like airfare and lodging.
rich126
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by rich126 »

Some people have some strong feelings about paying annual fees (AF). Others seem obsessed about getting more points w/o factoring the cost to get them. For example you get the bloggers saying this card gives you 4X points on dining instead of 3X. They often leave out that in order to break even with the (often) high AF, you'd have to pay $5,000 a year in dining whereas the lower earning 3X may have a cheaper AF and you'd break even at $2,000.

You really need to figure out your expenses. In my case, currently I spend maybe $35 every 2 weeks (yeah, 2) on gas. So $910 on gas isn't going to matter a lot whether I get 1X, 2x, 3X, etc. in bonus money or if you prefer (1%,3%, 6%) cash back if I have to pay an annual fee. Even at 6% rebate that would only earn me ~$55. Others may spend thousands on gas. Or buy gift cards and use various techniques to increase their spending.

Back to the travel credit, unless you never pay for a ticket on your own, it is hard to imagine someone not using all $300 of it. Right now I'm curious as to how I've used over $100 of it this year. My last trip was in early December and I haven't stayed in a hotel, rented a car, etc. in 2020. Somehow something I did triggered over $100 of the rebate (eating/drinking in a hotel?). I'll have to see if I can figured that one out.

You also get bloggers pushing other benefits like $100 credit on Clear or Global Entry, but it isn't really a benefit if you have four cards providing it since you can only use it once (unless family can use it).

Sometimes a 2-3% cashback is nice but if I can get 3X Chase or American Express points, I'd rather take those since I know I can use them for more than 3% in value.
Jags4186
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by Jags4186 »

MindBogler wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:49 am
02nz wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:43 am
So I've only followed this thread off and on, but I can't believe you're running around in circles on this! And it seems you briefly saw the light but then started running around in circles again.

The annual fee is $550, and as long as you spend $300 on travel, you get that reimbursed from Chase. Most people who would consider this card would spend $300 on travel regardless (i.e., without this card they would've put it on another card and not gotten it credited; that's the part that you seem not to get). So the net annual fee is really $250 (disregarding that you don't get points on the $300). Sure you can add say a hotel or plane ticket purchased for work to the cost side of the equation, but you get reimbursed for that by the employer, so it cancels out.
The issue here seems to be that people consider the $300 travel credit as reducing their $550 fee. Well, it only does that if you buy something for $300 that you consider valuable or would have needed. If you spend $300 just to get $300 back, it could be considered a waste. The problem with all of these arguments against me is that they assume the $300 was spent on something of no value, like a business hotel or airfare -- wrong.

You can easily get the $300 bonus simply by eating out for dinner. Let's use this example. I am traveling and I go out for a fancy dinner that I would not otherwise enjoy (I'm a frugal boglehead, right)? I spend $300 on dinner. Chase reimburses my $300 and so does my company. I am double dipping on this bonus so long as I buy something that I gain enjoyment from.

If you went to the same dinner and spent the same $300 you would receive the same enjoyment. The difference is I have an extra $300 in my pocket.

Sorry, you're just wrong. No matter how you slice it you only get one $300 reimbursement against a $550 annual fee. Say its a $250 annual fee. Say its a $550 annual fee with a $300 credit. But there's no possible way to construe it as a -$50 annual fee or a $600 reimbursement.
MindBogler
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by MindBogler »

02nz wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:02 am A number of things wrong in your post, starting with the fact that the $300 travel credit won’t reimburse you for that fancy dinner. It’s called a travel credit because it applies to travel expenses like airfare and lodging.
Do you even have this card? I'm guessing not, because you don't even know how the travel credit works.
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NavyIC3
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by NavyIC3 »

Wife and I take 2 or 3 major vacations a year. For us, the AF for this card is worth the cost in travel insurance even without the $300 credit. We are in our 70's. The older you get, the more expensive travel insurance is. Plus we get the 3% credit that we use at 1 1/2 times the valve.
Last edited by NavyIC3 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MindBogler
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Re: JPM Chase Reserve Card gets more expensive

Post by MindBogler »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 amSorry, you're just wrong. No matter how you slice it you only get one $300 reimbursement against a $550 annual fee. Say its a $250 annual fee. Say its a $550 annual fee with a $300 credit. But there's no possible way to construe it as a -$50 annual fee or a $600 reimbursement.
Case A:
Spend your own $300 and get a $300 travel credit.

Case B:
Spend someone else's $300 and get a $300 travel credit.

These two cases have clearly different mathematical results and yet they are being evaluated equally by the detractors.
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