EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

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marcopolo
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by marcopolo »

unclescrooge wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:59 pm
marcopolo wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:50 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:17 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:58 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:55 pmHow are those students obtaining those jobs before graduation, Will? Usually they are being interviewed by employers in the Fall/early winter before graduation, the offer comes, then comes graduation, then comes employment. That is how recruitment typically works.
I may have not been clear. The faculty teaching them are well connected in that particular sphere, and employers know that their students are top notch, and many of the students are doing paid internships with the employers while pursuing their degree. The students are then getting and signing offers before graduation.
Will - you are describing the equivalent of a "magic handshake". The same as if you attended Yale or any of the other "ivy's" where networks are what get you your first job and perhaps many others in your career. Not all schools, actually not many schools have professors who are so "well connected". I actually attended a local public college where such connections simply did not exist, the career center was non-existent. The graduates were on their own for finding suitable employment before and after graduation.
No magic handshake required. My older son went to a state school great, but not super start student, did an internship, and graduated in 3 years (due to AP credits and taking summer courses online). He had multiple offers in hand by December prior to graduating in May. Pretty much all of it coordinated through the school career fairs.
Having gone to good schools myself, I now think one's choice of major/career is likely to have a greater impact on your long term income.
Buddy of mine went to ASU, which is known as a party school. He's in his mid-30s, works in digital sales, and makes $300k+ a year. I know several people in that space. He is not the outlier.
I agree. Fortunately, my kids both seem to have an aptitude and interest in such majors.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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willthrill81
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:24 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:16 pm That's why we're working to have our retirement fully funded by the time our daughter reaches college age. If she chooses to go to a university, we should be able to easily cash flow it using funds that earlier on went into retirement accounts.
I’m about 95% certain that I’ve guessed who your employer is, which is a great school. Does your kid get a free ride since you work there?

If so, I can almost envision an interesting, intentional college planning option for parents that are able to do so. :)
Sadly, no. Employees can take a few credits all along, but that's it. No free tuition for family. :(
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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AerialWombat
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by AerialWombat »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:40 pm Sadly, no. Employees can take a few credits all along, but that's it. No free tuition for family. :(
That’s gotta be a bummer. :(
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willthrill81
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:40 pm Sadly, no. Employees can take a few credits all along, but that's it. No free tuition for family. :(
That’s gotta be a bummer. :(
Hey, I'm not complaining. Tuition is very affordable, and the 401a with a generous match + 401k (no match) + 457 + HSA = happy me!
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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teen persuasion
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by teen persuasion »

DeDad wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm I am scratching my head on how this is supposed to work. My EFC on FAFSA and CSS Profile is spitting out a number of 59K. What is wrong with my math? I don't see how we can pay that much

Annual wages: 160k

Pre-tax deductions for healthcare, dental, etc.: -8k
Pre-tax deductions to 401k: -19k (contribution limit)
Est. Federal tax withholding: -24k
Est. State tax: -9k
Est. City tax: -2k

Net income = 98k

Mortgage: -18k
Home insurance: -2k
Auto insurance: -1.5k
Real estate tax: -6k

Netnet: 70.5k

If we pay 59k for college, then we have to live on 1000$ per month? for a family of 4? I must be missing something.

Other than the math, the other issue I have is the typical situation with kids - 'all the other parents in this high school (public) are sending their kids to colleges like johns hopkins, cornell, .... with estimated costs of > 70K'. All the other parents seem to be able to give their kids cars, iphone 11s, support their college dreams, etc. What is wrong with me? You would think I am making enough. I had to work very very hard to get here. I feel like a cheapskate.
FAFSA formulas: https://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/at ... uide.pdf
Start on page 9.

I've tried reverse engineering your $59k EFC with the details you've given, and I'm way off, I don't know how you've gotten that number. Basic FAFSA calculations:

AGI + untaxed income = total income
Allowances: federal tax paid + state tax proxy + FICA calculated + income protection allowance + employment expense allowance
Total income - allowances = Available Income
Contributions from Assets = 12% (taxable accounts + 529 accounts - asset protection allowance)
Adjusted Available Income (AAI) = Available Income + Contributions from Assets
Look up parent's contributions in chart (top rate 47%) and divide by number in college = EFC

Using numbers you've given:
Total income $152k (only health insurance contributions decrease this)
Allowances: $24k (federal tax +FICA paid?)+ ??(state unknown, rate varies 2 to 9% of total income) + $29340 (income protection allowance family of 4, 1 in college) + $0 (only one earner) = $53340 + state proxy amount
Total income = $98660 - state proxy
Contributions from Assets = 12% ($30k + $110k - $5k(wild guess on parent's age, but not much anyways)) = 12% ($135k) = $16200
Adjusted Available Income (AAI) = $98660 - state proxy + $16200 = $114860 - something
EFC from chart = for AAI > $34.5k, $9343 + 47% (AAI - $34.5k) = $9343 + 47% ($114860 - $34500) = $48052

Your state tax proxy number will reduce your total income, reducing the EFC somewhat, really hard to guesstimate that number since it varies so greatly by state, but in the end it's only going to drop you 47% of the state proxy allowance, maybe $1k - $6k?

To get your $59k EFC, either you have significant taxable accounts you didn't mention, you included something you should NOT have on the FAFSA (home value, retirement accounts, etc), or there's a rare item I glossed over (business value, rental property, etc), or your children have income and/or savings (I skipped the student portion).
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:34 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:23 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
It's definitely false, but on these boards i think even more vocal are the ones who think that every cent spent more than the cost of 2 years of CC and then 2 years at the flagship StateU is a cent wasted, or that a student can "work" their way through an elite school by washing dishes at school and getting a summer job.

Not saying that's you - just that there are a few distinct factions on this board.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody on this board state that a young adult can cashflow an "elite" without significant scholarships (really, cashflow $50k+/yr?). The delta in costs is simply outrageous. Cashflow their way through many of the others, absolutely, and there are several members of my family who have done it recently. The average cost of tuition+ fees at public universities in this country is a few dollars over $10k/yr, which is within the realm of possibility for many young people with a strong work ethic.
It's worth pointing out that wages haven't kept up with college costs, and for many students, the kind of job they have pre-college doesn't allow for four years of full-time study. So one does need to figure six years to degree, at least, and keep an eye on the 42% (at the uni near you, which is one of the cheaper options nationally) completion rate in those six years. It's possible, but it's hard to say that it's feasible for most once living expenses are factored in, or comparable to thirty years ago.
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AerialWombat
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by AerialWombat »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:48 pm Hey, I'm not complaining. Tuition is very affordable, and the 401a with a generous match + 401k (no match) + 457 + HSA = happy me!
Sounds good to me. :sharebeer

I’d also add that it’s probably a much better quality of life than, say, the other side of the state at the flagship school. :D
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:48 pm Hey, I'm not complaining. Tuition is very affordable, and the 401a with a generous match + 401k (no match) + 457 + HSA = happy me!
Sounds good to me. :sharebeer

I’d also add that it’s probably a much better quality of life than, say, the other side of the state at the flagship school. :D
No kidding! We love our blessed life over here very much. :D
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F150HD
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by F150HD »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
Most expensive colleges in the United States for the academic year of 2018-2019, by total annual cost (in U.S. dollars)*

$75k/per
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

F150HD wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
Most expensive colleges in the United States for the academic year of 2018-2019, by total annual cost (in U.S. dollars)*

$75k/per
Sadly, many people would probably look at that list and make direct inferences with regard to the quality of education provided merely on the basis of the high price tag.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Vulcan »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:44 pm
F150HD wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
Most expensive colleges in the United States for the academic year of 2018-2019, by total annual cost (in U.S. dollars)*

$75k/per
Sadly, many people would probably look at that list and make direct inferences with regard to the quality of education provided merely on the basis of the high price tag.
I personally find the middle 50% ACT range to be a much more useful yardstick than any other common metric, be it price or USNWR ranking.
By that measure Caltech is an undisputed king, and even though MIT is son's top choice, it is his Caltech admission that we are most proud of.

That said, the differences in sticker price between truly exceptional schools and merely fancy ones are not terribly meaningful.
They all MSRP at around 70K, give or take a few grand.
The real differences come into play once you run your own numbers through their NPCs. What you will find there is that, as a general rule, the top 10 schools tend to be significantly more generous than the rest with need-based aid.

As for the list at the link, I've never heard of most of those schools, with few obvious exceptions. I bet doughnuts to dollars that places like Southern Methodist University (middle 50% ACT 28-32) discount themselves pretty aggressively to top candidates, because those candidates can go to some of its academic peers (e.g. OSU) for less than half the SMU's list price once merit money is awarded.
Last edited by Vulcan on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by AlphaLess »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Is that a state school?

If so, it is not costing $26K for four years.

It is subsidized by your fellow taxpayers.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Vulcan »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:17 pm If you're willing to make whatever financial sacrifices you have to in order to pay for your kids to go to X school, that's your choice. It's most certainly not one that I would make. At least in our family, going to college is primarily a financial choice (i.e. not primarily a 'personal development' choice), and as such, the amount of the financial investment and the ROI both play a fundamental role in determining whether a specific university is worth it. Others are free to use other criteria in their decision making process.
willthrill81, if I remember, your daughter is still pretty young.
When our kids were younger, we were of the same opinion.

The truth about ROI, though, is that it is impossible to know in advance, and the intangibles like 'personal development' are, of course, impossible to quantify.

So what we are all left with is having to make big decisions in the absence of foresight.
The only thing we can know for sure is the tuition bill, and even that only for the first year.
And while minimizing that number is one possible strategy, of course, choosing to forego a cheaper/free option is not always a frivolous decision.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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willthrill81
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

AlphaLess wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:16 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Is that a state school?

If so, it is not costing $26K for four years.

It is subsidized by your fellow taxpayers.
Yes, yes, and yes. This was once much more the norm until most states decided to shift the burden of paying for higher ed to the students, for better or worse.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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willthrill81
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

Vulcan wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:19 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:17 pm If you're willing to make whatever financial sacrifices you have to in order to pay for your kids to go to X school, that's your choice. It's most certainly not one that I would make. At least in our family, going to college is primarily a financial choice (i.e. not primarily a 'personal development' choice), and as such, the amount of the financial investment and the ROI both play a fundamental role in determining whether a specific university is worth it. Others are free to use other criteria in their decision making process.
willthrill81, if I remember, your daughter is still pretty young.
When our kids were younger, we were of the same opinion.

The truth about ROI, though, is that it is impossible to know in advance, and the intangibles like 'personal development' are, of course, impossible to quantify.

So what we are all left with is having to make big decisions in the absence of foresight.
The only thing we can know for sure is the tuition bill, and even that only for the first year.
And while minimizing that number is one possible strategy, of course, choosing to forego a cheaper/free option is not always a frivolous decision.
I'll just say this. I've experienced a lot of college myself both as a student and as a professor, I have dozens of colleagues around the country, and I've had thousands of students. The quality of the output of a university is primarily determined by the quality of its inputs. Top students will generally do well no matter where they go. Bottom students will generally not do as well no matter where they go. For those in the middle, the university may make a difference. YMMV.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by black jack »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:47 pm
I personally know a lot of people who have helped put their kids through a wide variety of schools and fields of study, but AFAIK none has ever sacrificed or significantly reduced their retirement to do so. I'm sure that some have postponed their anticipated retirement date to do so. Perhaps that is what posters here are referring to.

This topic seems to be the new tipping topic.
AFAYK.

But then, we usually don't know whether our neighbors are really making that much more than us, or are living large by saving that much less than us. Because we usually don't talk frankly about finances with acquaintances, and often not even with family members.

I'm partway through Indebted https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardc ... 1/indebted, at the recommendation of RevFran on the "What Book Are You Currently Reading" thread. It's an examination of the impact of college costs on middle-class families, written by an economic anthropologist who interviewed several dozen families who were willing to talk honestly (because anonymously) about their finances. Some of the stories are heartbreaking, illustrating how even the best-laid plans can be wrecked by unforeseen events (like divorce, loss of a job, or a housing crash). And as we know from endless discussions of common investment choices (made by others, not Bogleheads), many people do not devise "best-laid plans" in the first place.

The author also gives context by talking about how much more expensive college has become over the past several decades (and especially since the Great Recession, when virtually all states cut back on support for higher education), how students who are barely savvy enough to handle a credit card can take on tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, how many colleges have shifted their aid strategy to attract students from middle-income families at the expense of students from lower-income families, how the FAFSA enforces a particular type of family structure and ignores expenses that many families have (e.g, supporting other family members), and other interesting sidelights.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by mortfree »

Embarrassed to see my school on that list of most expensive.

Back in mid-90’s I thought it was expensive (low $2x,000 per year.)
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by jeroly »

The OP complains about having to “live on $1,000/month...” but this is AFTER paying their mortgage, health/car/home insurance, and taxes, and fully paying into their 401(k). So yes, they should be able to do this.

Moreover, they already have $55k saved in the 529, giving (without taking likely additional earnings on the 539 into account) an extra $14k/ year. Presto change-o, that’s now more than $2k/ month over and above housing, health, taxes, and retirement expenses.

Additionally, as many others have noted above, there are many alternatives to sending your kids to schools that bill above $59k/yr for each of four years.

A further thought... depending on the spacing of the ages of the two kids, if they have overlapping stays in college, then that EFC for the years they are both in college won’t be twice the $58.5k, possibly lowering the parents’ contribution further.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by bonglehead »

Does anyone know if/how the following are accounted for in FAFSA:
  • Deferred Compensation
  • Unvested Stock/RSUs
  • DB Pension
My eldest will be graduating middle school this summer so I thought I had few years to learn the details of this process but maybe I should start now!

Thanks
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Vulcan »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:12 amThe quality of the output of a university is primarily determined by the quality of its inputs. Top students will generally do well no matter where they go. Bottom students will generally not do as well no matter where they go. For those in the middle, the university may make a difference. YMMV.
Agreed - up to a point.

Some (not all) selective universities can provide top students with the level of academic rigor and peer stimulation that simply is not possible at a school where majority of other students aren't their academic peers, even if all the courses are nominally the same.

And those in the middle do not typically get accepted to those universities.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by mjb »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:44 pm
F150HD wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
Most expensive colleges in the United States for the academic year of 2018-2019, by total annual cost (in U.S. dollars)*

$75k/per
Sadly, many people would probably look at that list and make direct inferences with regard to the quality of education provided merely on the basis of the high price tag.
As someone who occasionally recruits for my company, half of those schools would not even be noticed.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by mjb »

DeDad wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:27 pm
cshell2 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:19 pm You might have to think outside the box here. You say you're a one income family. Could your spouse get a job and that income go just towards college? Each kid has about 14K/year to work with in savings. What can you cash flow? They can take about 27K in Stafford loans over 4 years.

Good point. We are exploring this path too.

I mean really, it's not that hard to find a very good school for a lot less than 59K. If your kid is good enough to get into JH or Cornell other schools a tier down will be throwing money at him/her to attend. Nothing cheap about going that route. A lot of families that could afford to pay the full 70K choose not to.
I agree. Do the kids coming out of the top-most tier colleges fare significantly better than those coming out of the next tier (with no debt)? I don't know..
It is very major dependent. I'm nominally still an engineer, although transitioning to management/staff engineer. My wife is in a non technical field.

If you kids want to remain "local", then a good local/regional school will likely give the same if not better bump than a top tiered school.

Overall, GPA matters, for any college undergrad. When I recruit, I look for GPA, internship experience, and skills listed that matter. However, after 5 years of work experience, college matters less.

For engineering and science ungrad/masters not PhD, schools that have national recognition in their type of engineering do tend to get better national recruiters, but those companies also recruit heavily from schools local to their facilities and the salaries would be relatively equivalent. FWIW, I went to a top school but work with plenty of people that didn't. I would say my experiences from that school did help, but I had a very unique set of experiences that would be a whole thread.

For prospective med school, GPA and your exams probably matter the most.

For the humanities and business, school name tends to matter more.

If your child wants a PhD, school name and the professors matter a lot more. Getting into a PhD program is more like dating than applying IMO.

I will say, I do encounter snobs that can be very elitist in both recruitment and in the office. I also tend to find those individuals use that to try to make up for not being too performers.

One last point, some schools do have reputations for having smart grads that are useless in the real world for either being overly theoretical, arrogant yet unperforming, or so ideological that they are a pain to work with. I won't say which ones, but some are on the expensive list I quoted. I ignore it when I do recruiting, but sadly, those reputations have shown to be true.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
So their official web page lies?

https://admissions.psu.edu/costs-aid/tuition/

$31.8k to $35k
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by cshell2 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:21 am
abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
So their official web page lies?

https://admissions.psu.edu/costs-aid/tuition/

$31.8k to $35k
That's just Penn State which isn't even technically a public university. There are a lot more PA state universities.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by cshell2 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Well there's your problem! :wink:
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Vulcan »

cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
New Mexico State University middle 50% ACT: 18-24

Oy, vey...
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by AerialWombat »

cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
Also, out here we have the wonderful Western Undergraduate Exchange program, where students from a number of neighboring states can get in-state tuition rates across state lines.

Now that I’ve semi-retired, I’ve contemplated going back to school myself to finally do that MS I’ve dropped out of twice before. The main school I’m eyeballing runs the most prestigious particle accelerator lab in the world, and tuition/fees even for an international student is less than $2,000 per year. Getting accepted in my 40’s is a different challenge, of course...
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

Vulcan wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:49 am
cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
New Mexico State University middle 50% ACT: 18-24

Oy, vey...
I don't see what's surprising about that. It sounds normal for a public, non-flagship university's middle 50% of their student populace. Students who have a 30 ACT or higher are likely to get at least a partial scholarship to more prestigious and otherwise pricier universities.
Last edited by willthrill81 on Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by stoptothink »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:02 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:34 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:23 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
It's definitely false, but on these boards i think even more vocal are the ones who think that every cent spent more than the cost of 2 years of CC and then 2 years at the flagship StateU is a cent wasted, or that a student can "work" their way through an elite school by washing dishes at school and getting a summer job.

Not saying that's you - just that there are a few distinct factions on this board.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody on this board state that a young adult can cashflow an "elite" without significant scholarships (really, cashflow $50k+/yr?). The delta in costs is simply outrageous. Cashflow their way through many of the others, absolutely, and there are several members of my family who have done it recently. The average cost of tuition+ fees at public universities in this country is a few dollars over $10k/yr, which is within the realm of possibility for many young people with a strong work ethic.
It's worth pointing out that wages haven't kept up with college costs, and for many students, the kind of job they have pre-college doesn't allow for four years of full-time study. So one does need to figure six years to degree, at least, and keep an eye on the 42% (at the uni near you, which is one of the cheaper options nationally) completion rate in those six years. It's possible, but it's hard to say that it's feasible for most once living expenses are factored in, or comparable to thirty years ago.
I have two sisters and several cousins, and a staff full of employees who did it all by themselves in the last handful of years. I finished it myself in '12. None of us had a choice because most parents aren't Bogleheads. Of course everybody's situations and options are different - we are blessed in Utah with some of the most affordable options in the country (although none of the 4 universities I attended were in Utah) - but we all have options. Is it hard? Sure. We can do hard things.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:14 am I have two sisters and several cousins, and a staff full of employees who did it all by themselves it in the last handful of years. They didn't have a choice because none of their parents are Bogleheads. Of course everybody's situations and options are different - we are blessed in Utah with some of the most affordable options in the country - but we all have options. Is it hard? Sure. We can do hard things.
Between my wife and I, we have 13 years of college under our belt, and we paid for all of it on our own. Five of those years were me being in grad school and getting most of my tuition waived and getting a small stipend but at the price of not being able to engage in outside employment. Aside from my first two years at a CC being free due to my ACT score, neither of us had scholarships or grants enough to move the needle. We had $30k in student loans by the time it was over and were earning multiples of that immediately after graduation.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by cshell2 »

Is tuition reimbursement not a thing other places where there are universities nearby? Here most of the companies have that as a benefit and there are a lot of kids working off shifts (nights or weekends) and going to college during the weekdays. I haven't looked into it in a while since I used it go to to school many years ago, but I believe they reimburse up to 5K/year in tuition which is about 75% of the cost of the public tuition here. I think I live in a bit of an oasis though. There are tons of manufacturing jobs around here with shift work that pays $13-$15/hour to kids right out of high school with good benefits besides the tuition.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by AerialWombat »

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the “free” college options. Many employers will offer up to the $5-$6k or so cap per year on tuition reimbursement, so a person could just get a non-degreed job first and work their way through school.

It took me 8 years to finish college, but it’s because I was working. And, my employer picked up the entire tab. A free education is just one of numerous perks of military service.

I’ve already mentioned dirt cheap tuition in Europe — some are even free — and they are open to foreigners, and have majors taught in English.

It’s also possible to complete a limited number of majors completely by testing out. It can be done in 6 months for less than $5k, for a regionally accredited BA.

Where there is a will, there is a way.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by an_asker »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
So, tuition at will's university is two third's that at MA community college. Plausible? Of course!
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by an_asker »

Vulcan wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:49 am
cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
New Mexico State University middle 50% ACT: 18-24

Oy, vey...
FL flagship Univ
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

bonglehead wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:14 am Does anyone know if/how the following are accounted for in FAFSA:
  • Deferred Compensation
  • Unvested Stock/RSUs
  • DB Pension
My eldest will be graduating middle school this summer so I thought I had few years to learn the details of this process but maybe I should start now!

Thanks
DB Pension contributions made by employer on your behalf are/should not be included.
Deferred Compensation where you willfully make an election to defer are/should be included for FAFSA calculations.
Unvested Stock/RSU's are unearned compensation, should not be included. The same can not be said for vested RSU's/stock - that is fair game for FAFSA.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by student »

an_asker wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:31 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
So, tuition at will's university is two third's that at MA community college. Plausible? Of course!
I am at a midsize R2 public university and our tuition is about $13k a year (less that 20% of our budget is from the state). Nearby cc is about $5k. So doing 2+2 costs $36k. The average student debt at our school is $25k. It seems MA is very expensive.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by marcopolo »

cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:26 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:21 am
abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
So their official web page lies?

https://admissions.psu.edu/costs-aid/tuition/

$31.8k to $35k
That's just Penn State which isn't even technically a public university. There are a lot more PA state universities.
Well, when one says "Pennsylvania State universities", I guess you can see why some of us might think that would include "Pennsylvania State University", right?

Why do you say it is not a public school?

The web site doesn't lie, that is what we are paying. PSU is one of, if not the, most expensive in-state school in the country, probably because it gets less state support than most state flagship schools.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by chipperd »

Assuming the OP is thinking his/her EFC is high, planning to reduce that number is part of college planning not to many discuss or consider in time to do anything about.
That said, a good chunk (I've reports of at least half in my research) of your EFC is family income. If there is a way to reduce your income, you could play with specific schools' net cost calculator to see if your reduction in income yields the reduction in net cost that makes income reduction worth it to you.
Assets held outside of retirement accounts need to be dealt with more than two years from the time your child applies.
It's these bits of information I never know about until it was to late. We are older parents with most of our $ in retirement accounts and one of us lost work at the time two of our three were/are in school. We appealed both kids' financial awards and both schools came back with more aid due to lost income. Lesson learned. Fortunately, we have retirement funds in 457b so can access after one year of separation of service and only the amount withdrawn counts on the FAFSA/CSS profile.
Hope that helps someone with kids younger than sophomore year in h.s.
Best of luck.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by cshell2 »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:42 am
Well, when one says "Pennsylvania State universities", I guess you can see why some of us might think that would include "Pennsylvania State University", right?

Why do you say it is not a public school?

The web site doesn't lie, that is what we are paying. PSU is one of, if not the, most expensive in-state school in the country, probably because it gets less state support than most state flagship schools.
Because you picked a super expensive school as your example of what tuition costs in PA. It's not representative of the cost of ALL PA state universities.

https://sites.psu.edu/psutuitionreform/ ... te-debate/
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by lazydavid »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:20 pm You hit the nail on the head. For many students, the decision to move out when they attend college is not out of necessity; it's a personal choice. That's completely fine, but its cost shouldn't be treated as a necessity when the real goal is to get an education.
That actually wasn't what I meant. I meant that often times students choose to live off-campus instead of in the dorm because they want their own bedroom and not to be subject to dorm rules and RA oversight. I still think most university students live on/near campus more out of necessity.

For example, I live in the Chicago suburbs (25 miles or so from the city), and the only state school within commuting distance is UIC. Depending on time of day, that could be a 90-120 minute commute (or as little as 40) each way. If my son went there, I would expect he'd live on campus. And if he went to any other state school, he'd have no choice. We are three hours from the flagship.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by stoptothink »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:23 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:14 am I have two sisters and several cousins, and a staff full of employees who did it all by themselves it in the last handful of years. They didn't have a choice because none of their parents are Bogleheads. Of course everybody's situations and options are different - we are blessed in Utah with some of the most affordable options in the country - but we all have options. Is it hard? Sure. We can do hard things.
Between my wife and I, we have 13 years of college under our belt, and we paid for all of it on our own. Five of those years were me being in grad school and getting most of my tuition waived and getting a small stipend but at the price of not being able to engage in outside employment. Aside from my first two years at a CC being free due to my ACT score, neither of us had scholarships or grants enough to move the needle. We had $30k in student loans by the time it was over and were earning multiples of that immediately after graduation.
Read my earlier post. Between my wife's family and mine, there are 11 kids, 8 with undergrad degrees and 3 with graduate degrees. I spent 11 yrs studying, also put an ex-wife through undergrad and dental school, and current wife through undergrad (finished fall '20). Combined we've received exactly $0 in financial assistance from the parents. I believe my sister is the only with student debt, and that's on her because she chose to get a pair of MAs (with zero related career track) from two "elite" exorbitantly expensive universities. Our parents on the other hand, both are near retirement age with significant student loan debt, and in the case of my FIL so much that there is essentially zero chance he'll ever pay it off.

We were blessed with really good parents, but equally, really good examples of what not to do regarding finances and education.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by Vulcan »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:00 am
Vulcan wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:49 am
cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
You mean someone doesn't have to spend a quarter of a million dollars to get a decent undergraduate degree?!? :wink:

Tuition for the regional, comprehensive university near us for four years is about $26k.
Where might this university be? This is 2/3 the cost of tuition alone at any Massachusetts community college (I just paid my son's bill....I can give you exact numbers if you like). It's about $9500 per year.
Pretty much any state university in New Mexico or Utah for starters. Most of the state universities in the midwest are less than $9000/year for tuition and fees if you avoid the flagships.
New Mexico State University middle 50% ACT: 18-24

Oy, vey...
I don't see what's surprising about that. It sounds normal for a public, non-flagship university's middle 50% of their student populace. Students who have a 30 ACT or higher are likely to get at least a partial scholarship to more prestigious and otherwise pricier universities.
Not surprising at all, even though it means about half of their student body is not even college ready.

A "regional, comprehensive university" such as this is not an academic match for all students.

And there are very few states that are blessed with public universities that are an academic match for top students. Going there out of state costs similar to privates.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by abuss368 »

marcopolo wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:57 pm
abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
Where are you getting that? I am paying quite a bit more than that, all in.
What are you paying for Pennsylvania state school (not private)?
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by abuss368 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:21 am
abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
So their official web page lies?

https://admissions.psu.edu/costs-aid/tuition/

$31.8k to $35k
Not Penn State but the public universities.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by cshell2 »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:20 pm You hit the nail on the head. For many students, the decision to move out when they attend college is not out of necessity; it's a personal choice. That's completely fine, but its cost shouldn't be treated as a necessity when the real goal is to get an education.
That actually wasn't what I meant. I meant that often times students choose to live off-campus instead of in the dorm because they want their own bedroom and not to be subject to dorm rules and RA oversight. I still think most university students live on/near campus more out of necessity.

For example, I live in the Chicago suburbs (25 miles or so from the city), and the only state school within commuting distance is UIC. Depending on time of day, that could be a 90-120 minute commute (or as little as 40) each way. If my son went there, I would expect he'd live on campus. And if he went to any other state school, he'd have no choice. We are three hours from the flagship.
It is location dependent, but in my neck of the woods (MN/WI) every town over 20K people has a public university it seems and most don't have any kind of commuting issues in that situation. We live in the country 12 miles from the university and can drive there, get parked within a couple blocks and walk to class in the space of 20 minutes from our garage to desk.
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by willthrill81 »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:02 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:23 am
stoptothink wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:14 am I have two sisters and several cousins, and a staff full of employees who did it all by themselves it in the last handful of years. They didn't have a choice because none of their parents are Bogleheads. Of course everybody's situations and options are different - we are blessed in Utah with some of the most affordable options in the country - but we all have options. Is it hard? Sure. We can do hard things.
Between my wife and I, we have 13 years of college under our belt, and we paid for all of it on our own. Five of those years were me being in grad school and getting most of my tuition waived and getting a small stipend but at the price of not being able to engage in outside employment. Aside from my first two years at a CC being free due to my ACT score, neither of us had scholarships or grants enough to move the needle. We had $30k in student loans by the time it was over and were earning multiples of that immediately after graduation.
Read my earlier post. Between my wife's family and mine, there are 11 kids, 8 with undergrad degrees and 3 with graduate degrees. I spent 11 yrs studying, also put an ex-wife through undergrad and dental school, and current wife through undergrad (finished fall '20). Combined we've received exactly $0 in financial assistance from the parents. I believe my sister is the only with student debt, and that's on her because she chose to get a pair of MAs (with zero related career track) from two "elite" exorbitantly expensive universities. Our parents on the other hand, both are near retirement age with significant student loan debt, and in the case of my FIL so much that there is essentially zero chance he'll ever pay it off.

We were blessed with really good parents, but equally, really good examples of what not to do regarding finances and education.
Excellent work on yours and your siblings' part! You're certainly a good example for your children.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:14 am
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:02 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:34 pm
BuckyBadger wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:23 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:14 pm But to be frank, I really believe that many people have gotten this snobbish attitude about a university education and believe that huge amounts of money must be spent on one in order to get a good one. That's completely false.
It's definitely false, but on these boards i think even more vocal are the ones who think that every cent spent more than the cost of 2 years of CC and then 2 years at the flagship StateU is a cent wasted, or that a student can "work" their way through an elite school by washing dishes at school and getting a summer job.

Not saying that's you - just that there are a few distinct factions on this board.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody on this board state that a young adult can cashflow an "elite" without significant scholarships (really, cashflow $50k+/yr?). The delta in costs is simply outrageous. Cashflow their way through many of the others, absolutely, and there are several members of my family who have done it recently. The average cost of tuition+ fees at public universities in this country is a few dollars over $10k/yr, which is within the realm of possibility for many young people with a strong work ethic.
It's worth pointing out that wages haven't kept up with college costs, and for many students, the kind of job they have pre-college doesn't allow for four years of full-time study. So one does need to figure six years to degree, at least, and keep an eye on the 42% (at the uni near you, which is one of the cheaper options nationally) completion rate in those six years. It's possible, but it's hard to say that it's feasible for most once living expenses are factored in, or comparable to thirty years ago.
I have two sisters and several cousins, and a staff full of employees who did it all by themselves in the last handful of years. I finished it myself in '12. None of us had a choice because most parents aren't Bogleheads. Of course everybody's situations and options are different - we are blessed in Utah with some of the most affordable options in the country (although none of the 4 universities I attended were in Utah) - but we all have options. Is it hard? Sure. We can do hard things.
With respect, my point was not that "it's not possible" just that "tuition and fees is under $10K" understates the costs for many people. Utah is somewhat of an outlier with respect to public education in that the state has done a good job of keeping costs down for students, and that the population concentration is such that most of the population is within an hour of a university that will fit their needs, which minimizes living costs. (We'll see how well that continues to work with skyrocketing real estate prices. Fingers crossed.)

And even with all that, the #1 reason students stop-out is cost, and the graduation rate is around 45% in six years at public institutions in Utah. I'm not by any means saying it can't be done, or one can't do hard things, just that it's important to consider the general experience when making generalizations about the growing expense of college. I paid less than the typical Utah grad for my extremely elite education, but I'm not going to conclude from that that elite private colleges are cheap.
getthatmarshmallow
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Re: EFC of 59K?! That is more than my net pay

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

marcopolo wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:42 am
cshell2 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:26 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:21 am
abuss368 wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Pennsylvania state universities are $21,000 a year all in.
So their official web page lies?

https://admissions.psu.edu/costs-aid/tuition/

$31.8k to $35k
That's just Penn State which isn't even technically a public university. There are a lot more PA state universities.
Well, when one says "Pennsylvania State universities", I guess you can see why some of us might think that would include "Pennsylvania State University", right?

Why do you say it is not a public school?

The web site doesn't lie, that is what we are paying. PSU is one of, if not the, most expensive in-state school in the country, probably because it gets less state support than most state flagship schools.
Penn State is an oddball. The PASSHE schools are the better comparison for public education. I forget what they call it -- but Penn State is not a public institution, but a legacy state school that gets about 8% of its funding from the state IIRC. Pennsylvania's "flagship" isn't a public institution.
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