Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

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Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by nisiprius » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:54 am

(I started by showing the rankings and asking readers what was being ranked).

On what list are these colleges ranked in this order?

1 Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences
2 St Louis College of Pharmacy
3 Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences
4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
5 Stanford University
6 Maine Maritime Academy
7 Babson College
8 Harvard University
9 Georgetown University
10 United States Merchant Marine Academy
11 University of the Sciences
12 St Paul's School of Nursing-Queens
13 Massachusetts Maritime Academy
14 Harvey Mudd College
15 Stevens Institute of Technology
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 California State University Maritime Academy
18 California Institute of Technology
19 Colorado School of Mines
20 Bentley University

The answer appears in this article by researchers at one of the schools appearing within the top twenty on their own list. I saw it in a news article in the Washington Post this morning so it's probably in all the news, and something tells me that over the next few years we are going to get very tired of hearing about it.
Last edited by nisiprius on Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by augryphon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:32 am

So its the 40 year NPV of education at those schools. The data is deceptive, though, as the top earning schools are Pharmacy schools. They are listed as 4 years schools, when in fact pharmacists require 3-4 years post graduate work to earn a DPh.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by oxothuk » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:16 am

This list is an indirect way of showing in which majors higher education pays off. Only a few liberal arts schools on the list, and those only from the top tier.

No surprise to me.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:45 am

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:49 pm

After moderator review, the topic has been moved to the Investing - Theory, News & General forum and has been unlocked.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 pm

oxothuk wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:16 am
This list is an indirect way of showing in which majors higher education pays off. Only a few liberal arts schools on the list, and those only from the top tier.

No surprise to me.
Me either.

For a long time now, the lion's share of the benefit of a college education has been in medicine, STEM, business, and law. Other areas have seen much a far smaller return on the investment of time and money. Consequently, some private lenders in the student loan market now take the borrower's major into account when evaluating how much they will lend that person, which seems perfectly logical to me. A nurse practitioner or CPA is likely to have far greater ability to repay their student loans than a historian, for instance.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:57 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 pm
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:16 am
This list is an indirect way of showing in which majors higher education pays off. Only a few liberal arts schools on the list, and those only from the top tier.

No surprise to me.
Me either.

For a long time now, the lion's share of the benefit of a college education has been in medicine, STEM, business, and law. Other areas have seen much a far smaller return on the investment of time and money. Consequently, some private lenders in the student loan market now take the borrower's major into account when evaluating how much they will lend that person, which seems perfectly logical to me. A nurse practitioner or CPA is likely to have far greater ability to repay their student loans than a historian, for instance.
Smart business and good for them.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Portfolio7 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:48 pm

Well, being in the college dance right now with my youngest, I almost immediately guessed it was some variation of earnings relative to the cost of a degree - but of course that's already in the first comment. There are other versions of this chart that are a bit different, as I recall, probably some different underlying assumptions. Anyways, Mines, MIT, Stanford, Harvard and the Academies clued me in. I hadn't even heard of Stevens until last night when my son told me he may apply there.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by rcjchicity » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:04 pm

augryphon wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:32 am
So its the 40 year NPV of education at those schools. The data is deceptive, though, as the top earning schools are Pharmacy schools. They are listed as 4 years schools, when in fact pharmacists require 3-4 years post graduate work to earn a DPh.
A clarification, although I agree with the point you're making.

Before pharmacy school, a student would have done 2 years of pre-pharmacy work (or longer, if they didn't start out as pre-pharmacy. This was my path as I got a B.A. in Chemistry first). Then, pharmacy school is 4 years, where they graduate with a Pharm.D. Some programs have an integrated pre-pharmacy/pharmacy path requiring only 5 years total out of high school.

But, I agree regarding the deceptive data, as this college ranking compares professional degree doctorate holders to bachelor degree holders. So, not surprising that professional schools would sort favorably.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Munir » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm

Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by bryanm » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:29 pm

Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
To gain a badge often necessary (but insufficient) to gain access to advantages within society. Money and education can also be used to gain access to advantages, but I suspect many overlook the "stamp of approval" aspect of higher education. Indeed, my suspicion is that the ROI from many of the liberal arts colleges on the list are more about the stamp and less about the education.

I also observe that this is a correlative study. Perhaps going to these colleges doesn't make one money, but those who make money tend to go to these colleges?

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:10 pm

Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Prior to WW2, it was almost entirely to gain an education, and making money was viewed as a nice potential byproduct. After the G.I. bill of 1944, it began to change to making money. These days, the lion's share of college students report that the primary reason they are there is to improve their job prospects.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:10 pm
Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Prior to WW2, it was almost entirely to gain an education, and making money was viewed as a nice potential byproduct. After the G.I. bill of 1944, it began to change to making money. These days, the lion's share of college students report that the primary reason they are there is to improve their job prospects.
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by texasdiver » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:52 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 pm
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:16 am
This list is an indirect way of showing in which majors higher education pays off. Only a few liberal arts schools on the list, and those only from the top tier.

No surprise to me.
Me either.

For a long time now, the lion's share of the benefit of a college education has been in medicine, STEM, business, and law. Other areas have seen much a far smaller return on the investment of time and money. Consequently, some private lenders in the student loan market now take the borrower's major into account when evaluating how much they will lend that person, which seems perfectly logical to me. A nurse practitioner or CPA is likely to have far greater ability to repay their student loans than a historian, for instance.
I went to what is considered an elite liberal arts college. Yes, lots of students with English, History, Poly Sci, etc. majors. Also lots of STEM majors. But, in reality the great majority of my peers went on to law school, med school, MBA programs, or graduate studies of some sort. For most students attending elite liberal arts college, the BA degree is rarely their terminal degree. It is merely a stepping stone on the way to some other advanced degree or training. If your objective is to be say...an orthopedic surgeon or be a partner in a white shoe law firm then an elite liberal arts school may be the best springboard into a top med school or law school. I’m willing to bet that the med school and law school admissions rates are pretty good from places like Swarthmore, Amherst, Pomona, Reed, etc.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:00 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:52 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:55 pm
oxothuk wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:16 am
This list is an indirect way of showing in which majors higher education pays off. Only a few liberal arts schools on the list, and those only from the top tier.

No surprise to me.
Me either.

For a long time now, the lion's share of the benefit of a college education has been in medicine, STEM, business, and law. Other areas have seen much a far smaller return on the investment of time and money. Consequently, some private lenders in the student loan market now take the borrower's major into account when evaluating how much they will lend that person, which seems perfectly logical to me. A nurse practitioner or CPA is likely to have far greater ability to repay their student loans than a historian, for instance.
I went to what is considered an elite liberal arts college. Yes, lots of students with English, History, Poly Sci, etc. majors. Also lots of STEM majors. But, in reality the great majority of my peers went on to law school, med school, MBA programs, or graduate studies of some sort. For most students attending elite liberal arts college, the BA degree is rarely their terminal degree. It is merely a stepping stone on the way to some other advanced degree or training. If your objective is to be say...an orthopedic surgeon or be a partner in a white shoe law firm then an elite liberal arts school may be the best springboard into a top med school or law school. I’m willing to bet that the med school and law school admissions rates are pretty good from places like Swarthmore, Amherst, Pomona, Reed, etc.
That's a good point, but it basically reaffirms my statement: medicine, STEM, business, and law are the areas where the 'real money' is to be made with a college education. Certainly there are exceptions to this (e.g. aviation), but they are just that: the exception.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Silence Dogood » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by stoptothink » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm

Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Silence Dogood » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:40 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.
I missed out on a lot of the "college experience" because I worked/commuted.

If I have children, I hope they will get to have that experience.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Stormbringer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:51 pm

But is it the college, or the students who lead to the big ROI?

For example, if you want to get a Computer Science degree from Stanford, just getting in probably means you already have a very high aptitude for computer programming. Having a very high aptitude for programming means you have increased odds of becoming a tech millionaire regardless of where you went to school, but because Stanford is mostly high-aptitude students, and other colleges are a mixed bag, Stanford is going to be made to look better than other schools because of the students who attend.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:59 pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:51 pm
But is it the college, or the students who lead to the big ROI?

For example, if you want to get a Computer Science degree from Stanford, just getting in probably means you already have a very high aptitude for computer programming. Having a very high aptitude for programming means you have increased odds of becoming a tech millionaire regardless of where you went to school, but because Stanford is mostly high-aptitude students, and other colleges are a mixed bag, Stanford is going to be made to look better than other schools because of the students who attend.
Certainly the top-schools' success begets success, and such universities can largely control their outputs (e.g. successful alumni) by carefully controlling their inputs (e.g. already successful students).
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by asset_chaos » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:06 pm

Without first reading down the thread I'll guess average alumni salary or lifetime earnings.

...

And now having skimmed the thread, it's clear I've made the consensus guess. The only surprise to me is all the maritime colleges. I had no idea maritime careers were particularly lucrative.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (career guidance). The answer to nisiprius' question is in the first reply. I agree and will play the spoiler - I retitled the thread. :)

To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by Random Musings » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:30 pm

They have a Bacon number of one in the Six Degrees of getting a job?

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:46 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.
If I recall correctly, you studied a hard science, without looking to go into medicine. Hard sciences, generally speaking, don’t pay.

So would it be fair to say you choose your course of study primarily due to personal interest, and secondarily due to remuneration?

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by bhsince87 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:20 pm

I couldn't find any of the major US MIlitary Academies on there.

Seems like their return would be off the charts.
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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by jabberwockOG » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

The days of going to a university to get a classic higher education may be over as the modern expectation seems to be that that higher education at an expensive university is a waste unless it is essentially a glorified trade school.

Last year our youngest graduated in the top 1% of his class with BSEE degree at a top 10 engineering school. Given the crazy rigorous curriculum requirements at the school, he received an intensive and thorough (and very lucrative) leading edge technical/trade school style education. He most certainly did not receive a "higher" university education in the classic sense. He had CLEP'd out of all basic prereqs with high school AP classes. I tried multiple times to suggest he take more varied classes on the side, as well as attend the school's theater and concert productions, but he did not feel he had the time or energy to do so.

He will likely be wildly successful in terms of salary/career, but I actually feel bad about his experience at school and how the void in his education will affect his life going forward. My university experience (BA Econ at a modest state school) 40 years ago was very well rounded, with lots of varied classes that fostered personal growth and clear eyed thinking about history, society, culture, etc. I loved every minute of it and would not trade my experience for his for all the money in the world.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:56 pm

jabberwockOG wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm
The days of going to a university to get a classic higher education may be over as the modern expectation seems to be that that higher education at an expensive university is a waste unless it is essentially a glorified trade school.

Last year our youngest graduated in the top 1% of his class with BSEE degree at a top 10 engineering school. Given the crazy rigorous curriculum requirements at the school, he received an intensive and thorough (and very lucrative) leading edge technical/trade school style education. He most certainly did not receive a "higher" university education in the classic sense. He had CLEP'd out of all basic prereqs with high school AP classes. I tried multiple times to suggest he take more varied classes on the side, as well as attend the school's theater and concert productions, but he did not feel he had the time or energy to do so.

He will likely be wildly successful in terms of salary/career, but I actually feel bad about his experience at school and how the void in his education will affect his life going forward. My university experience (BA Econ at a modest state school) 40 years ago was very well rounded, with lots of varied classes that fostered personal growth and clear eyed thinking about history, society, culture, etc. I loved every minute of it and would not trade my experience for his for all the money in the world.
This is my fear for my kids as well.

My plan is to start them young on the classics, and hope it takes.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:55 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm
To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
I'm not sure. Our local, public comprehensive university's tuition for in-state students for four years is just under $28k. With at least some majors, the ROI would have to be very high indeed when costs are that low.
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by MathIsMyWayr » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:16 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:10 pm
Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Prior to WW2, it was almost entirely to gain an education, and making money was viewed as a nice potential byproduct. After the G.I. bill of 1944, it began to change to making money. These days, the lion's share of college students report that the primary reason they are there is to improve their job prospects.
My wild guess:
Before WW II, college education was not wide spread. Mostly only kids from wealthy families and talented kids who were certain for success went to colleges. Major was not important because they were already wealthy or bound for success any way. After WW II, college education became wide spread. Many not from the above highly selective group also began to go to college and they now have to worry about livelihood. Now many view a large portion of college education as a job training.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by Clever_Username » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:28 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm
This thread is now in the Personal Finance (Not Investing) forum (career guidance). The answer to nisiprius' question is in the first reply. I agree and will play the spoiler - I retitled the thread. :)

To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
I think I looked at this earlier when it was still under review, but I did a slightly modified query and found my alma mater near the top in my state. I'd say I have had a pretty good ROI on my degrees, and it'd be higher if I didn't choose a career with it that has lower income than other choices with the same degree.
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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by CZjc1330 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:58 am

note to augryphon

In the old days Pharmacy was 4 yrs for a bachelor's. A Doctorate was another 4 years plus.
Now they have a 5 yr program and you graduate w/ a doctorate!! Can you believe that? :oops: What nonsense but it's all show business and marketing.

I think the list is bogus on so many levels as pointed out by others so I won't comment. Bottom line it's a lot of baloney. lot of baloney. Highly inaccurate IMHO.
:sharebeer .

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by IMO » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:03 am

This is what the purpose of the study from the site:

"Using data from the expanded College Scorecard, this report ranks 4,500 colleges and universities by return on investment. A First Try at ROI: Ranking 4,500 Colleges finds that bachelor’s degrees from private colleges, on average, have higher ROI than degrees from public colleges 40 years after enrollment. Community colleges and many certificate programs have the highest returns in the short term, 10 years after enrollment, though returns from bachelor’s degrees eventually overtake those of most two-year credentials."

As a parent soon to have a child starting college, I find this study of absolutely no value.

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Watty
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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by Watty » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:10 am

LadyGeek wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm
To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
I have a Computer Science degree from to Missouri University of Science and Technology which was called University of Missouri-Rolla when I was there. It was ranked 42 in the 40 year NPV rank.

At least at the time I was there it was the University of Missouri's main science and engineering campus and many STEM degrees, like Computer Science, were only offered there.

It is a relatively small university with around 7,000 undergraduate students and back when I was there I would guess that maybe 99% of the degrees were in the STEM field.

As I recall the few non-STEM degree programs where a few things like English degrees which were mainly available so that a spouse of a STEM student, especially graduate students, could also go to college while their spouse studied for a STEM degree.

It is a good University and I got a good education there but the focus on STEM really makes it rank a lot higher on the list than some other universities that also offer a lot of non-STEM degrees.

In contrast I just checked the University of Missouri-Columbia which is the state's flagship university mega-campus with around 30,000 students with almost 100 different degree programs. It now also offers a Computer Science degree. I would guess that no more than 20% of the students at the Columbia Mo campus are working on STEM degrees. In contrast it is ranked 541 in the 40 year NPV rank.

The in-state tuition costs for a degree at the 42nd ranked Rolla campus and the 541 ranked Columbia Mo. campus are similar and I would assume that career prospects for someone with a Computer Science degree from either campus are not dramatically different.

I don't think that NPV ranking by university is very useful since it lumps so many degrees together at universities that offer a wide variety of degrees.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:12 am

Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:40 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.
I missed out on a lot of the "college experience" because I worked/commuted.

If I have children, I hope they will get to have that experience.
As did I, I worked full-time through 11yrs of education and finished debt-free without a penny of assistance. I have then have taught off and on as a side gig, back on next fall, at universities for the last 7yrs. My children (at 7 and 4) already have college pretty much covered in 529s, but if they really want that "college experience" then they are going to have to find a way to pay for it themselves. Count me in as someone who definitely doesn't believe universities are the best environment to develop as a person and have memorable experiences; get in, get out, as fast and cheap as possible (at the most respected institution at your pricepoint).

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by stoptothink » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:25 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:46 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.
If I recall correctly, you studied a hard science, without looking to go into medicine. Hard sciences, generally speaking, don’t pay.

So would it be fair to say you choose your course of study primarily due to personal interest, and secondarily due to remuneration?
I was the first person in my family to attend college, my (single mother) did not graduate high school and neither did the father who I never really knew (or anybody in his family). I also attended a high school that had a fantastic honors/AP program, but that where less than half of incoming freshman graduated; you were not expected to go to college. I didn't know what I was doing and had nobody to mentor me. Yes, I studied "hard sciences", primarily because as a 16yr old college freshman on their own I didn't have access to the information I do now, but nothing I studied is anywhere near any list of worst-ROI degrees and I have been quite successful.

I agree 100% with Daymond John about the value of mentors and that it is important to put in context the importance of university education https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/02/shark-t ... ccess.html . I attended one of the top public universities in the world for undergrad and the university where I got my PhD has a top-5 program in my field of research; IMO, mentors have meant way more for my career success than anything I did or anybody I met in academia.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by ncbill » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:07 am

bhsince87 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:20 pm
I couldn't find any of the major US MIlitary Academies on there.

Seems like their return would be off the charts.
Yep, I was generous in covering my kid's extra costs (travel, etc.) & I still didn't spend more than $10,000 over the 4 years they were at their service academy.

I also view "4 years & out" as another benefit to the academies...especially for parents!

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by fasteddie911 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:26 am

If those are averages, I also wonder how many are inflated due to outlier millionaires/billionaires.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by student » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:55 pm
LadyGeek wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm
To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
I'm not sure. Our local, public comprehensive university's tuition for in-state students for four years is just under $28k. With at least some majors, the ROI would have to be very high indeed when costs are that low.
At my school (medium size R2), it is more expensive (about $50k) but we are partnered with many community colleges in town so one can reduce the cost to approximately $35k. (Many students also have have financial aid resulting in lower tuition.) So I agree with your statement. To go off tangent a bit, I think this country still offers affordable university education if one plans carefully.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is? [40 year ROI by Net Present Value]

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:35 am

student wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:55 pm
LadyGeek wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm
To keep this actionable, has anyone gone to one of the colleges in the article? How well does the article's data match your own?
I'm not sure. Our local, public comprehensive university's tuition for in-state students for four years is just under $28k. With at least some majors, the ROI would have to be very high indeed when costs are that low.
At my school (medium size R2), it is more expensive (about $50k) but we are partnered with many community colleges in town so one can reduce the cost to approximately $35k. (Many students also have have financial aid resulting in lower tuition.) So I agree with your statement. To go off tangent a bit, I think this country still offers affordable university education if one plans carefully.
So do I. 30% of graduates have no student loan debt at all. Average student loan debt upon graduation, which reflects significantly more than just debt incurred from pursuing higher education (i.e. using loaned funds for other purposes, which many borrowers do), is roughly the price of a new car. That's hardly the enormous burden that the media portrays it to be. Yes, around 20% of graduates owe more than $75k, and that does represent a lot of people, but the lion's share are not in a horrendous position unless their major is an area where the job prospects are poor (e.g. 16th century Italian poetry).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by dziuniek » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:20 pm

augryphon wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:32 am
So its the 40 year NPV of education at those schools. The data is deceptive, though, as the top earning schools are Pharmacy schools. They are listed as 4 years schools, when in fact pharmacists require 3-4 years post graduate work to earn a DPh.
2 years pre-pharmacy + 4 years pharmacy schoold here in CT.

A residency is optional, though obviously helpful in certain settings.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by Arlington2019 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:44 pm

I went to the University of Washington, graduating with a master's degree in analytical chemistry in the early 80's. I was fortunate to be able to work my way through school and graduated with no debt. Graduating at the height of the recession then, there were no jobs for bright young chemists, so I had to immediately retrain myself in another field entirely. So my ROI from the UW was very low. Some years later, I earned a distance-learning MBA from the Edinburgh Business School in Scotland while remaining full-time in my professional career. That degree cost me approximately $ 7,000 and boosted my career considerably. So the ROI from my distance-learning business school has been high.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by JoeRetire » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:22 pm

Meh.

IMHO, you get out of college what you put into it. For the most part, it depends on you, not the school you attended.

(full disclosure, I graduated from one of the listed schools)
Don't be a lemming.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by 7eight9 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:52 pm

I graduated from one of the top 10 in the list with a BS in Finance. Just a little over 30 years out of college so can't speak for how I'll be doing after 40 years. I did manage to get a decent job straight out of college. After that first job things have been pretty much downhill. Would I go there again? No.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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Re: Study ranks 4,500 colleges by net present value of 40 year ROI

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:11 pm

Arlington2019 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:44 pm
I went to the University of Washington, graduating with a master's degree in analytical chemistry in the early 80's. I was fortunate to be able to work my way through school and graduated with no debt. Graduating at the height of the recession then, there were no jobs for bright young chemists, so I had to immediately retrain myself in another field entirely. So my ROI from the UW was very low. Some years later, I earned a distance-learning MBA from the Edinburgh Business School in Scotland while remaining full-time in my professional career. That degree cost me approximately $ 7,000 and boosted my career considerably. So the ROI from my distance-learning business school has been high.
I think that it's easier to get a high monetary ROI from a low cost university, although the absolute return may be higher from a high cost and prestigious university. Those who can go to the latter for free (e.g. full scholarship) or nearly so are obviously in the best possible scenario.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by smitcat » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:49 am

stoptothink wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:12 am
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:40 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:33 pm
Silence Dogood wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:17 pm
I have a hard time believing that anybody in this day-and-age who didn't grow up in the socioeconomic elite (or is in a different situation, like a senior or SAHP doing it for fun) honestly pursued a college degree for the "experience" or "education" and not to improve career/income prospects.They may study something that they know does not result in high-paying career opportunities, but they are still there to gain access to opportunities that are not available without a college degree. But, I learn every day that I seem to exist in a different world than many (especially on this board).
Mutually exclusive?
No, but not sure what difference that makes. There is always a primary motivating factor as the article linked by Willthrill discusses. I wanted to be educated and have the experience, but make no mistake, I was well aware that I could do that through various other means without paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 11yrs of university education. I was there and willing to pay for the career opportunities 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...education and experience somewhere down the line.
I missed out on a lot of the "college experience" because I worked/commuted.

If I have children, I hope they will get to have that experience.
As did I, I worked full-time through 11yrs of education and finished debt-free without a penny of assistance. I have then have taught off and on as a side gig, back on next fall, at universities for the last 7yrs. My children (at 7 and 4) already have college pretty much covered in 529s, but if they really want that "college experience" then they are going to have to find a way to pay for it themselves. Count me in as someone who definitely doesn't believe universities are the best environment to develop as a person and have memorable experiences; get in, get out, as fast and cheap as possible (at the most respected institution at your pricepoint).
"Count me in as someone who definitely doesn't believe universities are the best environment to develop as a person and have memorable experiences; get in, get out, as fast and cheap as possible"

Hope that works out well for you - we had the opposite view and the "college experience" has been very favorable in our case.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by sunny_socal » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:57 am

Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Money. 'Education' these days is brainwashing.

I'll make sure my kids are truly educated:
- Know the difference between a truth and a lie
- Recognize how statistics can be made to lie
- How polls can be skewed
- Understand how half-truths can also be a lie

So that means sticking them into a community college or an engineering school. No way they're going to a liberal arts school if I have anything to do with it.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:08 am

sunny_socal wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:57 am
Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Money. 'Education' these days is brainwashing.

I'll make sure my kids are truly educated:
- Know the difference between a truth and a lie
- Recognize how statistics can be made to lie
- How polls can be skewed
- Understand how half-truths can also be a lie

So that means sticking them into a community college or an engineering school. No way they're going to a liberal arts school if I have anything to do with it.
You forgot a fifth key principle, which is not surprising because it’s unlikely to be gleaned from STEM courses and very likely to be covered in the liberal arts:

- Multiple, incommensurate truths can exist simultaneously

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by Munir » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:25 am

sunny_socal wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:57 am
Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Money. 'Education' these days is brainwashing.

I'll make sure my kids are truly educated:
- Know the difference between a truth and a lie
- Recognize how statistics can be made to lie
- How polls can be skewed
- Understand how half-truths can also be a lie

So that means sticking them into a community college or an engineering school. No way they're going to a liberal arts school if I have anything to do with it.
I don't agree. A true liberal arts education in undergraduate school would encourage an inquisitive mind & critical analysis thus creating a sound basis for a career in whatever profession a student chooses. Such an open mind is required to address the value questions one faces in life. A stand-alone technical education is insufficient.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by IMO » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:53 pm

Munir wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:25 am
sunny_socal wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:57 am
Munir wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Why does one go to college? To make money or to gain an education? Or both? If both, what are the percentages for each goal? Such clarifying questions hopefully would lead to a school choice consistent with one's goals. Or am I misunderstanding the purposes & goals of this article?
Money. 'Education' these days is brainwashing.

I'll make sure my kids are truly educated:
- Know the difference between a truth and a lie
- Recognize how statistics can be made to lie
- How polls can be skewed
- Understand how half-truths can also be a lie

So that means sticking them into a community college or an engineering school. No way they're going to a liberal arts school if I have anything to do with it.
I don't agree. A true liberal arts education in undergraduate school would encourage an inquisitive mind & critical analysis thus creating a sound basis for a career in whatever profession a student chooses. Such an open mind is required to address the value questions one faces in life. A stand-alone technical education is insufficient.
That's funny because earlier in my life I used to think like the last post. Now in my older wiser years, it's seems apparent in my view of life that having a college education in general doesn't seem to do a great job a developing truly critical thinking. Even on the most basic of things like critically thinking about simple things like "is this one product truly better than the other product" can be lacking with highly educated individuals that I've interacted with in life.

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Re: Can you guess what this ranked list of colleges is?

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:03 pm

sunny_socal wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:57 am
'Education' these days is brainwashing.

So that means sticking them into a community college or an engineering school.
LOL!

So I assume you feel they won't get an education in community college or an engineering school?
Or is brainwashing okay on those cases?

:confused
Don't be a lemming.

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