adult child moving back

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SSM1
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adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative. She has had abusive controlling relationships, stressful for both of us. She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.
I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).
Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
Thank you.
GmanJeff
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by GmanJeff »

I'd propose that you need a mutually understood and agreed to exit plan as an essential element of moving forward. That is, a defined date or event within which the living arrangement terminates. With that, a similar understanding with regard to responsibilities - for financial contributions to the shared household expenses, and for labor - who does the cooking, grocery shopping, and cleaning, for example? Will your daughter be permitted to have overnight guests, and with what kind of frequency and for what duration (so you don't end up with two roommates instead of one!).

All that notwithstanding, recognize that your daughter may not live up to her end of the bargain. In such a case, what will you do? Are you prepared to formally evict her if necessary? Since she has not been successful academically in the past, has something changed to improve her prospects, or will you and she just be throwing tuition money away?

An alternative, if you're willing and able, might be to offer your daughter some level of short-term financial support in lieu of letting her live with you. She can work full-time and still take classes at night or on-line instead of working only part-time. She can rent a room for herself, taking responsibility for aligning her expenses with her income, rather than being subsidized by you, which may give her more incentive to find her own footing. Any financial support you can give her for some agreed period of time would allow you to be helpful, without enabling your daughter to avoid responsibility for taking care of herself.
delamer
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by delamer »

Ask yourself this — if my daughter moved back in and didn’t contribute to any household expenses like rent, utilities, or food would that create a budget problem for me? What if she didn’t contribute to those expenses and started asking me for help with her personal expenses like tuition, car gas and insurance, etc.? Would that be a financial strain?

Use that information as your guide.
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JoeRetire
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by JoeRetire »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school.
Why not? Has she ever worked and gone to school before, or will this be something new?

I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).

Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
So are you looking for work because your income is insufficient? Can you afford to support your daughter if you don't find work at all and she finds out that she cannot work and attend school at the same time?
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
How much do you trust your daughter?
How do you want this living arrangement to work?

If you have specific concerns about her moving back (such as how long she stays, what she pays for, etc), and you don't completely trust your daughter to follow your "rules", then put it in writing.

Unless you are willing to formally evict your daughter or sue her, then the writing won't matter anyway. But sometimes having things in writing can motivate the behavior that interests you.

Some parents would include who pays for what. Some would charge a nominal rent. Some parents would write down an exit date. Some would include visitation permissions. Etc, etc - whatever is important to you.
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
It makes sense to follow the advice of professionals you are paying. But only you can decide (and you've chosen not to follow such advice before). If you aren't planning to follow the advice, perhaps you could decide not to bother spending money on the attorney in the first place.

That said, most attorneys will honor your wishes regarding trusts - if you make them clear. That will help them provide advice that you would be willing to follow.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jack FFR1846
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

From a parent/child standpoint, it's your house and your rules. Write them on a paper. Hang the paper somewhere it will be visible every day. Having a 23 and 19 year old at home, I know that it's key to keep that right out there. I don't care that legally, you can do xyz. If you don't like my oppressive rules, you're welcome to go live somewhere you pay yourself.

On the community college/job thing, for someone with some disabilities, that can be fine. This also can be mitigated by taking less than a full load. Instead of 5 or 6 classes a semester, maybe 4. I have a son in CC and one thing we make sure he focuses on is taking courses that will later transfer to a 4 year school. So the class he takes isn't as important as getting a B (many schools will only transfer a B or higher) and that the class has transfer value. The journalism end....well, to keep her interest, fine. As a humanities transfer, fine. As a way to be gainfully employed? I don't know.....go look for anyone looking for someone with an associates in journalism. Then compare the salary to a new employee at McDonalds.
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flyingaway
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by flyingaway »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative. She has had abusive controlling relationships, stressful for both of us. She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.
I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).
Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
Thank you.
When my children left home for their jobs elsewhere, I told them to good take care of themselves, and they can always come back to home at any time no matter what happens in their lives.

It is my belief that we brought out children to this world and we will always be responsible for their lives.
HomeStretch
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by HomeStretch »

Only you know your daughter and, if you agree, written rules sound like a good idea. Consider whether your support now to age 22 daughter will allow her to become fully/more easily self-supporting for life.

The Trust sounds like a good recommendation. Is it possible or make sense to name a trusted (younger) family member or friend as co-trustee to keep an eye out for your daughter’s interests (if daughter is not able to self-advocate) while the independent trustee does all the heavy lifting with the Trust?
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Sandtrap
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Sandtrap »

1. "Teamwork" towards establishing, and following, a change in lifestyle and end term career/earning goal that includes:

a. Employment in a trade, certifiable skill, etc.
b. Education/training towards a certificate, degree, etc, with employment in a job that "needed that certification".
(vs random generic courses with no end game in mind. ie: cruising) Suggest: LPN certification, and so forth.
c. Part time work and contribution to the household expenses monetarily.
d. Lifestyle change that does not include; cruising, hanging out, a misdirected teenage lifestyle, and so forth.
e. Awareness that non productive patterns, conflict, substance abuse, etc, will result in having to move out.

*This can be a tremendous bonding experience that is productive for both of you, if done properly.

*Both read: "Life Code" by Dr. Phil, "Life Strategies" by Dr. Phil.

*Post a portfolio review (per forum guidelines and format) for comprehensive financial help and the option of not needing "financial advisors"/etc.

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dm200
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by dm200 »

Seems very good that daughter wants to get more education.

Seems, as well, that you could use more money (some from her - if she works) to pay for expensive apartment.

What is she doing now? What other alternatives does she have?

What issues concern you about her moving in? What would you expect of her?

Is she (or can she) get any help/assistance/guidance in dealing with her disabilities/challenges?

If she has not already done so, I would urge her to get whatever assistance or programs at Community College she can qualify for. Such assistance, etc. might be just what she needs to be successful at school and later employment.

When your lease is up on the expensive apartment, can you find an acceptable lower cost one?

In the situation you describe (daughter with issues and you being 62, unemployed and health issues), might there be some kind of housing you could qualify for at a lower cost?
RetiredCSProf
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by RetiredCSProf »

I'll respond to the question about CC

Since your daughter is an adult, it will be her responsibility to disclose to the CC (after admitted as a student) to receive disability services, such as priority registration, extra help with academic counseling, and a note-taker in classes. It will also be up to her to use the services offered. For extra time on taking tests, your daughter will need to disclose that service to professors, although she will not need to disclose her diagnosis to professors.

To get disability services at a CC, your daughter will likely need to have had an evaluation and diagnosis within the past three years.

As for tuition, CCs in my area (California) offer two years of free tuition to residents who have not previously been enrolled in college. Otherwise, tuition is based on the number of credits in which the student is enrolled. My son and most of his friends needed three years to complete CC.

As for which courses to take, most CC students are there to complete their general education requirements (if they plan to continue to a four-year school), not their major. In a sense, it is similar to high school, where students takes classes in a broad range of introductory classes, such as English, mathematics, science, social studies, and fine arts. Otherwise, there are specialty programs for specific occupations, such as paralegal or air conditioning repair person.

If your daughter is not academically inclined, she may want to consider pursuing a career in something that does not require college. My cousin's daughter worked as a dental hygienist and is now a massage therapist.
Shallowpockets
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Shallowpockets »

She wants a minimum wage job while she pursues a creative and artsy sort of further education. Maybe you should look at that. Doesn’t seem to bode well as a profession to make any sort of money beyond a minimum wage. In effect, there may be debt coming for the schooling that will not advance her lifestyle at all and thus her contributions to your household.
You state you are already having stress in your life that impedes it in some way. Doesn’t seem as if this scheme with your daughter will help with that at all.
Even if she goes to community college and realizes a degree of some sort, and then gets a job at minimum wage after, you are in the same boat.
Sometimes lives as we want them have to be put on hold for the sake of life itself and making a living. Pursuing an artsy agenda usually means a long long stretch of lesser,jobs and less money until one breaks out, if that ever even happens.
If your arrangement comes to pass it may be for as long as you yourself have left on this earth. You are 62.
This is a time whereby you set maybe the last direction in which your life may go.
blackwhisker
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by blackwhisker »

flyingaway wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:11 am
SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative. She has had abusive controlling relationships, stressful for both of us. She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.
I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).
Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
Thank you.
When my children left home for their jobs elsewhere, I told them to good take care of themselves, and they can always come back to home at any time no matter what happens in their lives.

It is my belief that we brought out children to this world and we will always be responsible for their lives.
I totally agree with flyingaway! I feel the kids didn't choose but we parents chose to bring the kids to this world.
EnjoyIt
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by EnjoyIt »

blackwhisker wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:58 pm
flyingaway wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:11 am
SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative. She has had abusive controlling relationships, stressful for both of us. She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.
I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).
Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
Thank you.
When my children left home for their jobs elsewhere, I told them to good take care of themselves, and they can always come back to home at any time no matter what happens in their lives.

It is my belief that we brought out children to this world and we will always be responsible for their lives.
I totally agree with flyingaway! I feel the kids didn't choose but we parents chose to bring the kids to this world.
There is a thin line between responsible and enabling. Helping someone get on their feet and help with education is awesome. Letting an adult child live at home while not having a job and/or not going to school is something else. I would not throw them out on the street as you said, we have some responsibility, but I would also not allow them to sit around the house, smoking weed, drinking beer and having friends hang out all the time.

To OP, I agree with those who have recommended some kind fo outline regarding responsibilities around the house as well as an exit strategy. Love your daughter, help her, and help her succeed so that she does not need to live off of you any longer than necessary.
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Katietsu
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Katietsu »

I think many problems of adult family members living together or going in to business together are a result of two people going into the situation with different expectations. If you ask yourself what issues would you want discussed if an acquaintance was coming to stay, that might help you identify at least some of the topics for discussion.

While I do not disagree with the my house my rules mantra, I do think that the situation will likely have a more successful outcome if you recognize that she is a 22 year old woman who has been on her own.

Just from personal observation of a few extended family members, working part time may actually help your daughter stay on track if the job is kept to say 10 hours a week with the ability to schedule around school commitments. So, I would not be too quick to rule this out as counter productive.

I think finding a good disability counselor at the very beginning could make a huge difference.
Broken Man 1999
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

I think your first order of business is to get a thorough understanding of your daughter's abilities/disabilities. Until you know what she is capable of any plans you make to accommodate her living arrangements/educational efforts could be a waste of time.

Setting unreasonable/unreachable goals helps neither of you. And, the reverse helps both of you.

Good luck, I wish you success in this activity!

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
ohai
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by ohai »

I am not judging, but I'd take an honest evaluation on daughter's career prospects and whether the minimum wage job is likely to be temporary or persistent after she completes her program. The first possibility is that she is getting a job and being somewhat self sustaining, while working on some degree or certificate with unknown and unreliable prospects. The second view is that the future career is promising and she should go all-in with school. I'm raising this assessment because I know people, including close relative, who have pursued degrees based on hope, but in the mean time, neglected personal finances to their later detriment. Perhaps your daughter has some notion of wanting to hedge her employment route, as the opportunities from the degree could end up being uncertain.

I agree with above people about a written agreement. It might be a bit awkward to draft it up, but among other things, will help daughter's self esteem in that it will feel like a genuine renter agreement, rather than her just taking a subsidy from you. Given her background, it seems that she needs some emotional structure in addition to a job or education plan.

With that being said, should recognize that you are supporting her anyway, even if it is in terms of risk mitigation; if she can't pay or satisfy your initial agreement, are you going to throw her out?

Good luck anyway. Daughter is lucky to have a parent who will take her in and put thought into the situation.
TN_Boy
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by TN_Boy »

EnjoyIt wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:10 pm
blackwhisker wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:58 pm
flyingaway wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:11 am
SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative. She has had abusive controlling relationships, stressful for both of us. She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.
I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).
Financial planner had said to stay in house, so I paid for plan I didn't follow! Ha! House was too big, also a stress with maintenance and too much of a carbon footprint.
1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
Thoughts?
Thank you.
When my children left home for their jobs elsewhere, I told them to good take care of themselves, and they can always come back to home at any time no matter what happens in their lives.

It is my belief that we brought out children to this world and we will always be responsible for their lives.
I totally agree with flyingaway! I feel the kids didn't choose but we parents chose to bring the kids to this world.
There is a thin line between responsible and enabling. Helping someone get on their feet and help with education is awesome. Letting an adult child live at home while not having a job and/or not going to school is something else. I would not throw them out on the street as you said, we have some responsibility, but I would also not allow them to sit around the house, smoking weed, drinking beer and having friends hang out all the time.

To OP, I agree with those who have recommended some kind fo outline regarding responsibilities around the house as well as an exit strategy. Love your daughter, help her, and help her succeed so that she does not need to live off of you any longer than necessary.
It's really not a matter of who chose what. Letting kids come back home without conditions for any reason may not be a good idea.

I am not a parent with a child who has returned home. But I am closely familiar with this situation from multiple family and friend situations.

It's amazing how comfortable some kids (I use the word "kids" for people in their 20s and older ....) get with mom and dad paying the bills. And even if mom and dad charge rent, the kid still isn't living in the real world -- paying bills on time, getting stuff with the house fixed ..... all the things you have to do running your life when on your own. Mommy and daddy are still doing some of the grownup work. The family home is a safe place ... not to make progress in your life....

Note I understand that it may make a lot of sense for some kids to move back home at times. But wow, I've seen people just stagnate moving back home. It allows you to postpone hard choices.

Quote from a family friend's middle child, who was on the six ... or seven .... year college plan living at home: "The best thing that ever happened to me was dad kicking me out of the house."

Anyway, it sounds like the OP is doing the right thing evaluating her daughter's health situation. I would put on the table with her, "when do you think you can be on your own?"
junior
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by junior »

TN_Boy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:15 pm
Quote from a family friend's middle child, who was on the six ... or seven .... year college plan living at home: "The best thing that ever happened to me was dad kicking me out of the house."
On the other hand, a parent in denial about their kid's disability is setting everyone up for disappointment or worse if they kick them out of the house in a situation where the kid won't thrive.

Of course I'm just speaking hypothetically, that comment may not be applicable to the current kid under discussion.
bloom2708
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by bloom2708 »

Op, it is your daughter.

It sounds like you both could perhaps help each other out.

I'm not sure more school (loans) is the answer. Can she find a job, get some stability, pay some bills, maybe pay you some rent and find a good spot to land?

Those interests in more school seem varied. Can she afford more student loan debt?

These are tough for anonymous boards. We have 3 daughters. I would do most anything for them as long as it is a win-win scenario. I know there are drug and addiction issues that make that very hard. The disabilities may make that difficult here.
Last edited by bloom2708 on Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dm200
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by dm200 »

When my wife's niece got married (at the age of 19) and moved out, her parents converted her bedroom into a dining room - so there was no bedroom for her to have of she wanted to move back home.
Broken Man 1999
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Our daughters flew the co-op when they started college. The one who went out of area for college came back during the summer breaks, and worked and also took some classes over the break. She lived with us during the summer. Helped DW alot.

And, last year a daughter and family moved in with us when their house sold quickly, and their new home was under construction.

It was actually a lot of fun having them here for the seven months they were with us. Family dinners, summer activities for the grandchildren, when they moved out I was kinda sad, it was such a good time for all of us.

Our door will always be open to our children if the need to live here for legit circumstances. This year DDs took turns living with us for weeks when DW had knee replacement, they were so very helpful. Nothing extraordinary, that is what family members do for each other. Unless one has a dysfunctional family/member.

Multi-generation family living under one roof used to be pretty standard. Grandpa would die, and Grandma would move into a daughter's or son's home, or the son or daughter would move into grandma's home. Both my grandmothers lived with their daughters, as so many of that generation's women did not work outside the home. The grandmothers provided child care, cooked, etc. Big help with the generation of women who headed out to the workplace.

But, times change, and sometimes I think it was for the worse, in many cases.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
uberdoc
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by uberdoc »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:52 pm Our daughters flew the co-op when they started college. The one who went out of area for college came back during the summer breaks, and worked and also took some classes over the break. She lived with us during the summer. Helped DW alot.

And, last year a daughter and family moved in with us when their house sold quickly, and their new home was under construction.

It was actually a lot of fun having them here for the seven months they were with us. Family dinners, summer activities for the grandchildren, when they moved out I was kinda sad, it was such a good time for all of us.

Our door will always be open to our children if the need to live here for legit circumstances. This year DDs took turns living with us for weeks when DW had knee replacement, they were so very helpful. Nothing extraordinary, that is what family members do for each other. Unless one has a dysfunctional family/member.

Multi-generation family living under one roof used to be pretty standard. Grandpa would die, and Grandma would move into a daughter's or son's home, or the son or daughter would move into grandma's home. Both my grandmothers lived with their daughters, as so many of that generation's women did not work outside the home. The grandmothers provided child care, cooked, etc. Big help with the generation of women who headed out to the workplace.

But, times change, and sometimes I think it was for the worse, in many cases.

Broken Man 1999
You raised your daughters well.
TN_Boy
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by TN_Boy »

junior wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:57 pm
TN_Boy wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:15 pm
Quote from a family friend's middle child, who was on the six ... or seven .... year college plan living at home: "The best thing that ever happened to me was dad kicking me out of the house."
On the other hand, a parent in denial about their kid's disability is setting everyone up for disappointment or worse if they kick them out of the house in a situation where the kid won't thrive.

Of course I'm just speaking hypothetically, that comment may not be applicable to the current kid under discussion.
Sure, that's why it makes sense that the OP is getting some evaluation of her daughter. Perhaps she cannot make it on her own right now.

In which case, it still strikes me as high priority to see if there is a path to getting her self-sufficient. What if mom dies prematurely? Daughter will be on her own then.
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Watty
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Watty »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am 2. I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend), as well as neuropsych evaluation for daughter to decide about her special needs.
One of the biggest mistakes with paying for professional advice like that is not taking it. If there is some question about if what they are suggesting is really right then getting a second professional opinion would be an option.

PS even if your good friend is willing and capable of managing the trust they could very well die or be in a nursing home when you die in 20 years so not using them makes sense.
SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am 1. What should we discuss and put in writing? Roommate agreement
I don't know about putting it in writing but a couple of things where you should have mutual expectations on are;

1) Dating, for both of you. Will she have boyfriends spend the night? Will you have dates spend the night? Will either of you spend the night elsewhere, or be out until three in the morning?

2) What are the rules for her having other guests over?

2) Drug and alcohol use. I obviously don't know her but I would think that there is a non-zero chance that she might have at least borderline issues with these even if it is social drinking or drug use like marijuana.

3) Use of cars and parking especially if you do not have two parking spaces. Will you drive each others cars? Make sure your car insurance and your umbrella policy will handle her being there OK.

4) You are not roommates. You are not friends. It is your place and you are the parent and she is the kid.

5) A planned date when she will move out, maybe the end of the spring semester if goes to school in January. You can always extend the date but if things are not working out that would be a good time to have her move out without a lot of drama.

6) How is she going to pay for college?
SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts. She enjoys drawing and is creative.
...
She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school.
It would be good to get a realistic idea if the job prospects of these fields.

Newspapers and magazines are in big trouble so the traditional jobs for journalism majors are in trouble.

It would be good to keep an open mind about vocational school might work better for her.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Thanks for all the great input. Quick replies:
- Paying for community college here is not a hardship for me, but she needs to stay on track and not drop out with tuition/time lost. And I agree that we need to see about career path vs. wasting time and funds with no good job prospects. Is the CC advisor good enough to help - or shall we get other input? Vocational/disabilities counselor may be good.
- There is not a problem with substance use, based on numerous conversations with her, her counselor, and friends. Of course we need to continue conversations/check-ins. She has paid her own bills except for phone, I pay (and BF helped some, though using her car). And she has saved some money $3k for emergency.
- I need to manage stress, and ensure responsibilities and expectations. I plan on written agreement that we discuss and sign. (And no overnight guests, as we have not allowed in the past.)
- Cost of living (plus crowding and air pollution) may be too high here for the long term.
- I will follow the attorney's advice re: requesting neuropsych evaluation and fiduciary trustee.
- She is my daughter and I want a better/positive relationship for the long term for both of us. So I'm walking the fine line of promoting responsibility/education/training/self-esteem in light of challenges and disabilities.
Thank you.
--SSM1
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Stinky
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Stinky »

SSM1 wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:37 am I plan on written agreement that we discuss and sign.

- Cost of living (plus crowding and air pollution) may be too high here for the long term.
Make sure that you discuss your possible future move to another location when you have your discussion about the written agreement.

If you "kinda maybe" would be moving to another locale in 10 years, that's not a matter for current concern. But if you hope to move in the next year or two, then that part of the discussion should be front and center.
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Kenkat
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Kenkat »

The disability aspect definitely adds complexity to things as you have to find the balance between setting expectations vs. asking someone to do something that they aren’t really capable of. I have a son with disabilities so I walk this line.

I think it is good that she has a part time job, minimum wage or not. It’s a job, you have to show up at a specific time, do what is expected, etc. Many people attend community college on a part time basis while working. I’d be inclined to let her keep the part time job, maybe scale back hours if possible / practical and begin taking some college courses as a part time student in community college. I’d try to focus on having a goal in mind with those classes, either a two year degree or transfer ability to another college. Ideally a degree that can lead to a job. It’s got to be a fit to what she wants and can do while at the same time you have to be somewhat cognizant of how this can lead to a better job that can sustain her. Again, you will have to balance this with the challenges she has and getting a professional evaluation is key to 1) knowing what you are really dealing with; 2) getting help, both medical and social services where they may apply.

House rules should definitely be applied, just find the right balance between tough love and kindness given the limitations she may face. It’s just a different scenario when you are not dealing with a neuro-typical person as some things can really blow up in your face.
clip651
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by clip651 »

You mentioned that she has been in abusive or controlling relationships in the past. Sounds like she is out of that situation now. If she recognizes the problem and wants to stay away from that in the future, having a safe place to live with you may help her accomplish that, as she won't be as tempted to move in with a new partner quickly before getting to know them well, for instance. So that is another potential benefit to both of you (you mentioned her difficult relationships stressed you as well, understandably). A lot will depend on whether she is open to guidance from you and/or counseling and self-reflection and boundary setting for her future relationships. But I do think having a safe and supportive place to live is a big help.

Only you know your daughter, what she is capable of, and how your dynamic is and whether you will enjoy or not enjoy having her under your roof. Certainly sounds like she could benefit from your support and guidance for a time, if you are able to offer that. Figuring out finances, ground rules, etc have been mentioned by other posters, and you haven't given us a lot of information to be more specific in advice on those areas. But it sounds like you are going in with open eyes, at least. I hope it works out for both of you.

best wishes,
cj
oldfatguy
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by oldfatguy »

SSM1 wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:37 am Thanks for all the great input. Quick replies:
- Paying for community college here is not a hardship for me, but she needs to stay on track and not drop out with tuition/time lost. And I agree that we need to see about career path vs. wasting time and funds with no good job prospects. Is the CC advisor good enough to help - or shall we get other input? Vocational/disabilities counselor may be good.
Depending on the nature and extent of her disabilities, she should be working with a Vocational Rehabilitation counselor. Check with your state department of labor/workforce development for eligibility and access to those services.
StealthRabbit
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by StealthRabbit »

For the living arrangement I wholly agree with above:
1) Have an exit plan, before you open the door. (Including infringements that will expedite that plan)
2) Write out the rules and post them.
3) Schedule shared space. (laundry, Kitchen)
4) Have separate cupboards and fridge for food.
5) Keep a 'balance' log of expenses and payments (Utilities go up? Know what your normal rate is, and charge her for increases)
6) Showers. <5 minutes or get a 'coin machine' like a campground.
7) TV, No TV, throw the thing out or store it till she leaves.
8) Internet, she should have her own and pay for it.
9) Car? no shared car EVER.
10) Rent. She must pay a share of the rent or you will both be out on the street. This is no crime, my mom started charging me at age 15. I was gone by age 16. (found a cheaper place by myself!)

Career... get her into something that is much higher than minimum wage (that is for HS kids). Learn a trade, work night shift in a factory, work 2-3 extra jobs on weekends (more pay) Work nights as much as possible so everyday is free for attending school (+ a whole lot less time spent at your house).

School - WAIT until she has worked some jobs that she KNOWS she likes, is good at, and can provide a secure income and future. Her company should PAY for school, at least $3k - $5k / yr (even Walmart does this).

Relationships - off limits until career is found, then school is complete (4-6 yrs from now). No rush. She will be better prepared to 'throw-the-bums-OUT' if she has achieved her own confidence, independence, and greatness. No need for 'enablers' or 'dead-beats'.

Have a plan, stick with the plan.
Have an escape, exercise the escape plan if necessary.
JGoneRiding
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by JGoneRiding »

McDonald's in our area is paying $15 n hr. This makes it hard for other employers to compete but it means "min wage" is really relative. Unfortunately it also means artsy carriers either need to step up and pay more or people just can't afford to pursue them. Starbucks provides benefits. Since she may be stuck in these types of jobs it's good to know the beat options.

Oh yeah and McDonald's gives some form of school assistance. It really can be a great job and teach team work and doing as you are told.
NotTooDeepLearning
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by NotTooDeepLearning »

I would encourage her to take only 1 or 2 classes (that are required prereqs or transfer to a 4-year program) the first semester if shes working as well. Getting back into the groove of coursework can be stressful and I think 4-6 courses right off the bat for a lot of people is way too much. Of course if someone is only taking 2 classes they really ought to be getting straight A's as well.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

She plans to take 3 community classes, including some "easy" ones, and work 10-15 hrs/wk.
I agree with written rules that we work on together, knowing that things need to change for both of us. I am not comfortable with being way too strict on the food separation. But then she should contribute to shopping, some funds, cooking, cleaning, etc.
PS She did another art conference all weekend trying to sell her printed artwork, lots of work but apparently not successful. She is talented, but learning the hard way, school of hard knocks I guess.
Thanks again.
remomnyc
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by remomnyc »

College, and even CC, is not for everyone. Even if you can afford CC, it may be a waste of her time. I would say first meet with a specialist to review her disabilities and her abilities and discuss potential career paths before throwing time and money at CC. Let her move back in with firm rules and a plan that will lead to independence. I know too many "kids" who moved back home and have yet to move out or become self-sufficient 10 years later, and many of these have 4-yr degrees and now work part-time minimum wage jobs.
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Johnsson
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Johnsson »

Sandtrap wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:28 am 1. "Teamwork" towards establishing, and following, a change in lifestyle and end term career/earning goal that includes:
a. Employment in a trade, certifiable skill, etc.
b. Education/training towards a certificate, degree, etc, with employment in a job that "needed that certification".
(vs random generic courses with no end game in mind. ie: cruising) Suggest: LPN certification, and so forth.
c. Part time work and contribution to the household expenses monetarily.
d. Lifestyle change that does not include; cruising, hanging out, a misdirected teenage lifestyle, and so forth.
e. Awareness that non productive patterns, conflict, substance abuse, etc, will result in having to move out.

*This can be a tremendous bonding experience that is productive for both of you, if done properly.

*Both read: "Life Code" by Dr. Phil, "Life Strategies" by Dr. Phil.

*Post a portfolio review (per forum guidelines and format) for comprehensive financial help and the option of not needing "financial advisors"/etc.

j :happy
THIS!!!!!!!

Especially 'Education/training towards a certificate, degree, etc, with employment in a job that "needed that certification".
(vs random generic courses with no end game in mind. ie: cruising) Suggest: LPN certification, and so forth.'

As other noted, too many end up with a Bachelors Degree at McDonald's.

Her dreams need to be aligned with a practical plan of action BEFORE moving in...
'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' Yogi Berra
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Have neuropsych eval scheduled for early Feb (soonest appointment)
Signed up for 3 Classes at CC = creative writing, drawing, math are transferable.
Got her a new HP laptop for Christmas.
Counselor does not discourage romantic relationships, and spending (hair color, tatoos/piercings, "alternative"art conventions) - I think too much focus on appearance and maybe even victim role...venting here
Next need to work on agreements, escape plan B
Thanks
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dm200
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by dm200 »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:47 pm Have neuropsych eval scheduled for early Feb (soonest appointment)
Signed up for 3 Classes at CC = creative writing, drawing, math are transferable.
Got her a new HP laptop for Christmas.
Counselor does not discourage romantic relationships, and spending (hair color, tatoos/piercings, "alternative"art conventions) - I think too much focus on appearance and maybe even victim role...venting here
Next need to work on agreements, escape plan B
Thanks
Best of luck to both of you.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Update on 23yo:
Primary care doctor did not feel the "thorough evaluation" was that helpful.
Completed 3 CC classes: Math = B, Art and Creative Writing = A. Improvement, but it's a long haul here.
Started taking low dose medication to help with mood, hopefully appetite, plus Rx strength Vitamin D, weekly calls with new PA.
Wants to take summer off to work at retail store, works late hours low wage. Plans to save money, take classes toward associate degree, plans to move to Florida on her own transfer to retail store there. I'm concerned about health and climate change issues in Fl.
Also, going to get hearing evaluation, loss is significant, getting worse. :-(
Challenging times with pandemic now too.
I revised my LRT, can specify special needs, possibly.
Counselor suggests discussing nutrition/health milestones required for continued living and tuition support.
Any further input?
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Ged
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Ged »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:52 pm
Multi-generation family living under one roof used to be pretty standard.

But, times change, and sometimes I think it was for the worse, in many cases.

Broken Man 1999
I think extended families make a whole lot of sense from an economic and social perspective.
JBTX
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by JBTX »

It really is hard to answer and is very specific to the situation. There are some situations where it is just impossible for the young adult to live at home because of the tension and the stress, and the inevitability to fall into prior parent child roles. Especially if there are psych issues involved ( this is where we are at currently) In other cases it may be OK or a good thing.

I agree it is probably a good idea to document and agree upon expectations, rules etc. It may or may not help, but it least the conditions were made clear. Perhaps if you did something on a trial basis - one, two or three months. At the end if you decide it isn't working out at least there is a firm stopping point.

As to psych issues, some seem to really want to get the correct diagnosis, with the thought being that will pave the way to successful treatment. Our experience has been that diagnoses can vary between seemingly competent professionals, but ultimately the treatment needs to be individualized. The diagnosis is less important, unless you are filling out some application for specific services. I'd bet that most parents with kids of psych issues have received all kinds of diagnoses over their lifetime.
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Sandtrap »

Good opportunity to sell your home and rent.
Then you could always move away as an exit plan and rent elsewhere.

It is very important to have an exit plan even with the best of intentions.

As a culture and UHCOL Hawaii has a plethora of multi generational living under one roof with great and interesting results.

j🌺
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Katietsu
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Katietsu »

Has your daughter been living with you for the last semester? Your description makes it seem like she did well in school and has secured a part time job. That seems like success. Have there been problems that you have left out that would make either of you feel that the situation is not working?

Would it make sense from a financial point of view for her to stay with you through the end of the year? I assume that fall weather is not too bad where you are. That could give her an extra semester to save on living expenses. And the coronavirus situation might be more predictable.

One other comment based on personal experience, sometimes when dealing with a ill or disabled family member, I have had to remind myself to look at the person as a person and not just at the challenge that needs managed.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Thank you. Yes, she has been living with me, going to community college, and working part time. I'll send a PM. Thank you.
Normchad
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Normchad »

Best of luck to everybody. My general take has always been "everybody needs to be productive". Everybody should be moving forward.

I would never let me kid live in my house as an adult and screw off. But OP, it sounds like your daughter is doing all the right things. She is going to school, she is working. She is working on improving herself, and her lot in life. She is moving forward. And you're doing a good thing (I think) by letting her live with you. Life would be so much harder if she had to pay rent someplace, etc. Good on you!

I never in a million years thought I'd be in that boat. But there is a pandemic out there. Any my daughter just graduated college, and the dream job she had already accepted; vanished before she even started. So now she's trying to figure out how to move forward.

It's a tough world out there. We all need to stick together, and help each other out.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Hello. I added to my other post early retirement and portfolio. Pandemic made things more difficult. She is working, not contributing much, and does not want to go back to college with on-line classes. I am not feeling well either, and want out of high expense area with bad air pollution... trying....
JBTX
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by JBTX »

I posted earlier but we have a very similar situation with young adult daughter. She isn't living at home. We are paying her rent and living expenses. Luckily we can afford to. Right now her living at home is just an impossibility due to certain behaviors.

Every day I deal with how best to support - I struggle to not enable by too much support, but the flip side without support she has made bad decisions, and the real potential for catastrophically bad decisions is there, which would hurt not only her, but us. How do you find that balance? I don't know. We have talked to various psych professionals that have different POVs on the matter.

If there is an upside, some professionals have told us that some of these "kids" just take longer to develop. You are combining an undeveloped pre frontal cortex(which is responsible for self control and impulse control) which most teens and young adults have, with specific psych issues, and the combination is very difficult to deal with. With some of them, as they age and pre frontal cortex develops, they become better able to implement strategies they have previously learned. That could take as long as late 20s.

I know of a friend who has a young adult with similar issues as my daughter. Smart but couldn't focus on school and couldn't hold a job. He is now in early 20s and living by himself, keeping a job, and avoiding most of the destructive behaviors. He still needs support, but the progress has been significant.

Good luck.
bsteiner
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by bsteiner »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. ... She has several disabilities/challenges, hope she will use accessibility programs at school. She seems to be maturing but has struggled academically and has hurdles. She eventually wants to move to lower cost of living warm climate, maybe Florida.

I am single, have sold my house net about 577 put in money market in July, and moved to an expensive 2 BR apartment (step 1 good, step 2 not so great). I don't know if I will stay here (but I don't like Fla). I have stress-related health problems, not working almost 3 yrs, but looking/applying without luck (overqualified, LT unemployed & age 62 ).

... I'm revising my LRT, and the new elder care attorney suggests lifetime trust for her with independent fiduciary (fiduciary because too much to ask of a good friend) ...
Is there a reason for a revocable trust? They make sense in some cases, and in some states, but they're overhyped and oversold, and for most people in most states aren't necessary. Are you in a state like California where probating a Will and dealing with the court is difficult?

Our clients generally provide for their children in trust rather than outright even absent any disabilities. Since she has some disabilities, you would certainly want to provide for her in trust. It's often difficult for a sibling to be a trustee for a person with disabilities. If you don't have appropriate friends and family to serve as trustees (or even if you do), a bank or trust company is often a good choice as trustee for a beneficiary with disabilities. The issue is the degree of control (if any) that she should have over the trust. Should she have the power to change the bank or trust company?

A trusts and estates lawyer might be more appropriate for this since it's an estate planning (trusts and estates) matter.
SSM1 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:24 am She plans to take 3 community classes, including some "easy" ones, and work 10-15 hrs/wk.
...
That sounds like a good plan. Depending on how she finds it, she may need to take fewer classes, or drop the job, or both.
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SSM1
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by SSM1 »

Update: not taking classes, not contributing much at all.
TimeTheMarket
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by TimeTheMarket »

SSM1 wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:25 am My daughter almost 23 wants to move back with me, work part-time at minimum wage job, take classes at community college. She really wants to continue working part time, but IDK if she could handle it with school. She is interested in journalism, editing, maybe graphic arts.
I stopped reading after this.

This is nonsense/not a plan. I assume you know that. She needs a real plan. Journalism in 2020 at community college is not a plan. Part-time is an even worse one. She's 23 and needs to get going with a tangible approach. I've no problem with her moving back home but to work part time and get a useless credential is not doing her any favors.
Username is not serious :)
Katietsu
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Re: adult child moving back

Post by Katietsu »

SSM1 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:29 pm Update: not taking classes, not contributing much at all.
I have followed this from the beginning. I understand that there are longer term issues.

Evaluating the current situation both from your perspective and hers is just near impossible thanks to the pandemic. It does not help you, but you can read the research discussing the very real struggles of community college students with online only learning. It is reasonable, and probably wise, for her to opt out of this option.

As far as not contributing much, do you mean financially?That too is hard to evaluate during a pandemic with tens of millions unemployed and even more underemployed. My nephew is working at Walmart, attending community college and living at home. Would have thought that the job was pandemic proof but had his hours cut from 20 to 12 per week.

This was going to be a stressful situation from the beginning in ordinary times. With the extra challenges introduced by Covid-19, I am sure it is very difficult for both of you.

If you daughter was not living with you, would your finances look much different? Would you have moved to a smaller place or a lower COL location?

Is your daughter covering her own personal expenses that you would not have without her there? Is she keeping any physical mess to her own room? Right now, I personally would be happy if just those goals were met.
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