The difficulty of discarding frugality?

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midareff
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Cyclesafe wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:48 am
Ah, the scarce resource is now time. Invest your bounty to maximize your enjoyment of it. Sooner than latter, as one by one the options for pleasure drop away.
I think these are wise words.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:33 pm

BlueEars wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:49 am
This is sort of fun to talk about.

When at restaurants I have to remember to not go after the lower cost dishes just to save money. We will probably replace our 18 year old Camry this coming year. We could easily have afforded a Mercedes but DW loves her car. Might replace with the new hybrid Honda CRV coming out in 2020. :happy

Buy that up to date smartphone. I bought an iPhone XR a year ago and it is really awesome. Great for traveling too. Don't forget to take those trips before it is too late.
Amen.... have a clothes dryer repair guy coming Monday. Need to get that stuff squared away before I know if I'm buying a Smartphone or a Smartphone and a Washer/Dryer package on a new Brands 10% off for 14 days card. I had to scuttle two paid for trips this year medically..... looks like I'm locked onto a 35 day cruise around South America Dec/Jan and the doctors have all waved their magic wands... Houston we are A GO.
Last edited by midareff on Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:38 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am
After my younger kid left house for his job in another state, I recently decided that we should experience a larger and more desirable lifestyle than we originally planned, and I started doing One More Year(s) to fund the additional expenses.

For example, I spend more money on heating and cooling house (higher utility bill), watering lawn (higher water bill), resuming a very expensive hobby, traveling to Europe with better hotels and food. I am frugal in nature and I still buy price reduced (one day before their expiration date) donuts at Kroger, but I believe most people have an internal desire for better (more expensive) lifestyle, if money is not a problem (or potential problem). In many cases, we withhold spending (live frugally) when we could spend more money, because we do not know what will happen in the future. We worry about potential money shortfall in the future or in later life. We do not know how long we will live. There are lots of uncertainties in the future.

One way of reducing some uncertainties is to keep working (OMY), which may not be the case if you are retired. I am going to evaluate my situations on an every six month basis.
Very intuitive response IMHO. Have been considering moving to a nicer, larger residence in another part of the state for awhile. Once (physically, the travel thing diminishes) the good problem of excess disposable income rears it's not very ugly head. Why not more comfortable?

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by KlangFool » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:54 pm

midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:08 am


1) Tea -> check out Upton tea
https://www.uptontea.com/ I will..... although after being in China I did develpop a taste for what they call Emperor although it does vary year to year a bit much.

<<Genevalia Coffee>>

2) Not good enough for me. I tend to shop around for our local micro coffee roaster. OK, sounds great but tastes are different.

<<Perhaps an internet streamer is my kind of match for B.? >>

3) I used to sing in an amateur choir. To really hear everything, you would need a Sony Monitor Headphone. They are used by professional sound engineers for mixing music. LOL, sorry Kland and I get your point....... . to hear everything a great set of 6 foot tall electrostatic speakers will do just fine in a professionally set up and dampered room with the right driving electronics and source, cables, amps, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDR7506-Pro ... B000AJIF4E

4) Most music CDs are not good enough. Check out some Audiophile Music CDs I would agree with you to a significant extent although some players are really superb on redbook. The Sony XA 5400 ES being a former Stereophile A+ rated CD/SACD player being one of them.... anmd not all "Audiophile recordings are what they are advertised to be. Mobile Fidelity Gold for example is highly colored and brass sounding ... Chesky when they were doling them were excellent.... and so on. Not going to go name by name here but we could in another venue.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Audiophile+M ... _sb_noss_2

When the image in front of you has the sound of her phloem rolling off her tonsils you are getting close.

KlangFool
midareff,

<<to hear everything a great set of 6 foot tall electrostatic speakers will do just fine in a professionally set up and dampered room with the right driving electronics and source, cables, amps, etc.>>

You will be surprised by how well that Sony headphone delivers close to that. My friend is a professional sound engineer.

<<The Sony XA 5400 ES being a former Stereophile A+ rated CD/SACD player being one of them.>>

It does not matter how well the player is if the recording on the CD is not up to par. If the source is no good, the player cannot make it better.

The following CD is in the XRCD format.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_ ... mpact_Disc
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Audiophile- ... NYFJG7EFBN

KlangFool

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:02 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:54 pm



midareff,

<<to hear everything a great set of 6 foot tall electrostatic speakers will do just fine in a professionally set up and dampered room with the right driving electronics and source, cables, amps, etc.>>

You will be surprised by how well that Sony headphone delivers close to that. My friend is a professional sound engineer.

Klang... I've listened to great phones through top electronics..... detail is superb... sound stage not so much. There is quite a difference between the sound stage being in your head and the singer 5 - 7 feet in front of you with the band spread as if you were in the first few rows or even on stage. IMHO phones won't do that like a real set up room will.

<<The Sony XA 5400 ES being a former Stereophile A+ rated CD/SACD player being one of them.>>

It does not matter how well the player is if the recording on the CD is not up to par. If the source is no good, the player cannot make it better.

Of course, but some players are (way) better at stuff than others.

The following CD is in the XRCD format.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_ ... mpact_Disc
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Audiophile- ... NYFJG7EFBN

KlangFool

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Mel Lindauer » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:15 pm

Here's the first of a three-part Forbes series I did on this topic a while back. A number of Bogleheads forum members shared their thoughts and experiences.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theboglehe ... ding-mode/
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by GerryL » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Retired 5 years. Have always been frugal, sometimes cheap. (As kids my brother labeled me a frugal miser.) It has taken a while to loosen the purse strings, but I am discarding the cheapness and embracing both frugality AND spending. Routine tracking of spending, so I know that I am well within my spending target, is now making me feel freer to let the dollars go.

I'm still frugal but more generous, both to myself and others. Travel. Charitable giving. More dining out (and tipping). Experiences (have been buying a symphony subscription for two so I can invite friends). And impulse purchases (just bought my first-ever Lego set!)

For a long time you had goals for saving. Now you may want to consider your goals for spending.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Small Law Survivor » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm

I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
68 yrs, semi-retired lawyer, 50/40/10 s/b/c, 70/30 dom/int'l. Plan: 4% WR until age 70, 3% after social security kicks in. Boglehead since day 1 (and M* Diehard before that) under various other names

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:07 pm

If you think you are being unnecessarily frugal, take advantage of the anchoring bias. Force yourself to buy something expensive, and the next time this or similar purchase will be easier. I now don't think twice about signing up for local comedy courses for ~$300 each and now experimenting with traveling for comedy in New York City.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Mel Lindauer » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Here are links to the second and third columns in my Forbes series on this topic.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theboglehe ... a5fde52f1f

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theboglehe ... 874140675b

The first column link appears above: viewtopic.php?p=4838594#p4838594
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Toons » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:46 pm

I "crossed over" about 6 years ago,regarding spending
I have seen some familiar names in the obituaries in those 6 years.
Mine is not one of them.
Nothing is guaranteed.
Day by Day.
If you see it
Want it
Can afford it
Buy it.
Get 2 of Them.
Give One Away :happy
What Are You Living For
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Toons wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:46 pm
I "crossed over" about 6 years ago,regarding spending
I have seen some familiar names in the obituaries in those 6 years.
Mine is not one of them.
Nothing is guaranteed.
Day by Day.
If you see it
Want it
Can afford it
Buy it.
Get 2 of Them.
Give One Away :happy
What Are You Living For
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
:thumbsup
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by iamblessed » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:21 pm

You can still be frugal just retire 10 or 20 years sooner. No need to change lifestyle.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by delamer » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:15 pm

Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
I know people who grew up poor who love to spend money as adults with good incomes. They felt deprived as children, and spend whatever they earn now to compensate. So basically, they don’t accumulate. :(

That absolutely isn’t true for all people who were poor as children, of course. My parents fit the frugal mold, like yours.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by shess » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:34 am

delamer wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:15 pm
Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
I know people who grew up poor who love to spend money as adults with good incomes. They felt deprived as children, and spend whatever they earn now to compensate. So basically, they don’t accumulate. :(

That absolutely isn’t true for all people who were poor as children, of course. My parents fit the frugal mold, like yours.
Yeah, I don't think the blanket assertion works. My family had some really dicey times, and I've always been frugal, my sister (3 years younger) often seemed to have no idea how to hold onto a dollar, and my brother (8 years younger) is very similar to me in this area. It's not like our family situation was variable, either, and I don't think our parents shared differently with us, we just took away different things from the experience, I guess.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by White Coat Investor » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:46 am

midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:12 am
I would not say cheap.. well, maybe just a little but mostly best bang for the buck frugal type of guy (couple now) with a modest life style and a high percentage of earnings saved throughout the 46 years I worked. Of course, much more savings in the later years when pay and employment stature had grown, but always very cautious of expenses. LOL, I just remembered my first company stock purchase plan I put in $4 a week to get the company $5 a month matching bucks. .. long, long time ago in a far distant galaxy. Toward the later employment years lunch buddies were dropping $2 or $2.50 on a soda with lunch daily and I'm getting a cup of free municipal water and still investing the extra $40 - $50 a month. That kind of frugal, but eating the same burger, chicken, steak sandwich or whatever. Drove cars long time.. 7 - 11 years generally based on experienced reliability. .. and so forth. Modest but nice residences, never the biggest model on the block or most space in the condo.

Coming up on 8 years retired and thank you dear Uncle Jack. State pension (well funded state) and SS can pay all the monthly bills. Portfolio at VPW withdrawal rate funds travel and luxuries. I'm able to (psychologically) to write the travel check, got over the car life cycle thing 2 years ago but things like a new suit, a new phone after 4 models and such are still a real problem pulling the trigger when they are easily afforded.

Dealing with the fruits of labor has been a bit of an issue for me since the high savings rate days have been gone and frankly, with the bull, decumulation isn't decumulating. Do any of you have problems pulling the trigger despite being well able (not for frivolous items, high end jewelry and such) and how have you handled the issue?

Thanks in advance for all comments.
Use a credit card. It makes spending less painful. Give some money away each year too. When you're giving money away, it's easier to tell yourself yes to something that might make you happier.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by catdude » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:10 am

frugalmama wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:42 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:46 pm
I have no problem with small indulgences such as coffee shop spending, a movie online, etc. what I am having problem with is buying a new condo which is slightly bigger than current and has a/c that is not a room a/c , and a 3 season porch. All rooms are slightly bigger. My calculations say I have the money, but I just can’t do it.
That is me. I'm not sure how to overcome it. However, I really need a larger house and yet, I don't see myself ever pulling the trigger because I can make due with what I have.
A few months ago I bought a bigger house, even tho I could've made do with my old one. My new house is in a LCOL area (compared to the old house) so the equity in my old place paid for the new one. But I still had to shell out quite a few $$$ for A/C, appliances, blinds, a new fence, etc. etc. I'm really glad I did... I'm happier now. It's OK to let go of frugality every now and then.
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 am

White Coat Investor wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:46 am
midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:12 am
I would not say cheap.. well, maybe just a little but mostly best bang for the buck frugal type of guy (couple now) with a modest life style and a high percentage of earnings saved throughout the 46 years I worked. Of course, much more savings in the later years when pay and employment stature had grown, but always very cautious of expenses. LOL, I just remembered my first company stock purchase plan I put in $4 a week to get the company $5 a month matching bucks. .. long, long time ago in a far distant galaxy. Toward the later employment years lunch buddies were dropping $2 or $2.50 on a soda with lunch daily and I'm getting a cup of free municipal water and still investing the extra $40 - $50 a month. That kind of frugal, but eating the same burger, chicken, steak sandwich or whatever. Drove cars long time.. 7 - 11 years generally based on experienced reliability. .. and so forth. Modest but nice residences, never the biggest model on the block or most space in the condo.

Coming up on 8 years retired and thank you dear Uncle Jack. State pension (well funded state) and SS can pay all the monthly bills. Portfolio at VPW withdrawal rate funds travel and luxuries. I'm able to (psychologically) to write the travel check, got over the car life cycle thing 2 years ago but things like a new suit, a new phone after 4 models and such are still a real problem pulling the trigger when they are easily afforded.

Dealing with the fruits of labor has been a bit of an issue for me since the high savings rate days have been gone and frankly, with the bull, decumulation isn't decumulating. Do any of you have problems pulling the trigger despite being well able (not for frivolous items, high end jewelry and such) and how have you handled the issue?

Thanks in advance for all comments.
Use a credit card. It makes spending less painful. Give some money away each year too. When you're giving money away, it's easier to tell yourself yes to something that might make you happier.
Thanks WCI ... I do play the credit card games with $2K to $3K a year in cash back. .. all on auto-pay in full monthly so I haven't paid a penny in credit card interest in at least 35 + years. I'm also a supporter of quite a few children's charities.. St Jude, Operation Smile, UNESCO, UNICEF, Ronald McDonald House, Fred Hollows Foundation.... a few more and Wounded Warrior and Wounded Warrior Families. .. yup, do give some away.. 3% to maybe 4% of income annually and don't even consider that spending.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:42 am

GerryL wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:37 pm
Retired 5 years. Have always been frugal, sometimes cheap. (As kids my brother labeled me a frugal miser.) It has taken a while to loosen the purse strings, but I am discarding the cheapness and embracing both frugality AND spending. Routine tracking of spending, so I know that I am well within my spending target, is now making me feel freer to let the dollars go.

I'm still frugal but more generous, both to myself and others. Travel. Charitable giving. More dining out (and tipping). Experiences (have been buying a symphony subscription for two so I can invite friends). And impulse purchases (just bought my first-ever Lego set!)

For a long time you had goals for saving. Now you may want to consider your goals for spending.
Good point mentioning tipping ... I've recently started going 20% whenever service is at least decent. It's kinda like when the waiter says how is everything and the chef cooked the steak just right and you say; It's much better for me than it was for the cow.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:47 am

catdude wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:10 am
frugalmama wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:42 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:46 pm
I have no problem with small indulgences such as coffee shop spending, a movie online, etc. what I am having problem with is buying a new condo which is slightly bigger than current and has a/c that is not a room a/c , and a 3 season porch. All rooms are slightly bigger. My calculations say I have the money, but I just can’t do it.
That is me. I'm not sure how to overcome it. However, I really need a larger house and yet, I don't see myself ever pulling the trigger because I can make due with what I have.
A few months ago I bought a bigger house, even tho I could've made do with my old one. My new house is in a LCOL area (compared to the old house) so the equity in my old place paid for the new one. But I still had to shell out quite a few $$$ for A/C, appliances, blinds, a new fence, etc. etc. I'm really glad I did... I'm happier now. It's OK to let go of frugality every now and then.
Yeah... wrestling with the entire move to larger condo thing too. From HCOL to a slightly lower, but still high one with a much larger apartment for a few bucks more. Flip side of that coin for me is I have some medical issues and have a collection of specialists that keep me rolling along pretty good for the issues involved. ... and access to an well scheduled international airport rather than a domestic regional.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:51 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
Strikes home .... folks were depression era kids and never got over it. When dad passed at 94 I think he still had possession of the third nickel (and all subsequent ones) he ever earned. They were a bit past frugal to be kind. .... and I guess yeah, you grow up that way as a way of life that may never leave.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by msk » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:57 am

Fly First Class; or your heirs will. LoL, I still agonize over paying full whack for Business Class. Old habits...

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by retired early&luv it » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:54 am

Don't worry about your frugal lifestyle.

I am:
- Vanguard Flagship level,
- drive a 2003 truck,
- am on Medicare (paying the Medicare high income penalty),
- not yet taking Social Security because that would put me in a higher income tax bracket,
- I do not clip coupons, but I do stock up at the grocery store when they have a sale,
- paid off my condo mortgage three years after i bought it in the mid 1990s,
- occasionally shop at Dollar Tree.

I could spend more if I wanted to. But choose not to.

Live your life the way you want to live your life. If others feel you should spend (or waste) more money, it was your mistake to let them know that you had the money in the first place.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 am

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:47 am
OP,

1) I save a lot of money. But, I am not frugal.

2) I do "Pay Yourself First" saving method and I spend the rest.

3) I enjoy good food, coffee, and tea.

4) I enjoy good music.

5) I eat out regularly my whole life.

I know what I like and where I would spend more money.

A) I bought an electric bike last year.

B) I will be buying a Karaoke system this week and do some singing at home.

C) I upgraded my tea by buying expensive tea.

In summary, I enjoy certain stuff in life and I would spend more money on it.

What do you enjoy doing?

KlangFool
I think we have the same spending plan. I certainly followed the same philosophy ; to save first and rest spend as you like.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Dottie57 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:35 am

Toons wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:46 pm
I "crossed over" about 6 years ago,regarding spending
I have seen some familiar names in the obituaries in those 6 years.
Mine is not one of them.
Nothing is guaranteed.
Day by Day.
If you see it
Want it
Can afford it
Buy it.
Get 2 of Them.
Give One Away :happy
What Are You Living For
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
So very true.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by jimkinny » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:45 am

What has helped me is knowing and accepting that if I don't spend my money then my heirs will. I decided to withdraw 3% each January. I started this 2 years ago after after retiring in 2012. I place that money in a a savings account at the same bank as my checking account. It makes it easier to spend and keep track of. The act of transferring the 3% from my investment accounts is just a psychological trick that seems to work for me. I know that I could likely take another 1-2% out yearly but so far that is a bit out of my reach.

Jim

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by is50xenough » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:56 am

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:47 am
OP,

B) I will be buying a Karaoke system this week and do some singing at home.


KlangFool
Haven’t been on this site too long, but did not see that coming. Please attach an mp3. ;)

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by TresBelle65 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:30 am

A key word I have not seen yet mentioned is: security.

I grew up in a financially insecure family and remember absorbing those feelings of insecurity as a kid.

Through a combination of hard work, diligence and luck, I am now financially secure.

I sleep well with this knowledge.

The next step is focusing on how to use these resources to maximize joy...very few material items bring me joy...so this is the new study, but I am liking it so far :)

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:21 am

My 90+ year old MIL said "I'm not paying for someone to do my laundry" when we moved them to independent living. Then we handed her the box of laundry pods so she wouldn't have to lug a box of detergent through the halls. She criticized that too. Fast forward a week and she asked us to sign them up for the laundry service...
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Caduceus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am

I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have. You should feel free to spend on things that bring you genuine joy, and continue saving if there's no point in excess.

Warren Buffett has billions and lives in a house that's smaller and valued much less than many of my peers.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by KlangFool » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:29 am

Dottie57 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 am
KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:47 am
OP,

1) I save a lot of money. But, I am not frugal.

2) I do "Pay Yourself First" saving method and I spend the rest.

3) I enjoy good food, coffee, and tea.

4) I enjoy good music.

5) I eat out regularly my whole life.

I know what I like and where I would spend more money.

A) I bought an electric bike last year.

B) I will be buying a Karaoke system this week and do some singing at home.

C) I upgraded my tea by buying expensive tea.

In summary, I enjoy certain stuff in life and I would spend more money on it.

What do you enjoy doing?

KlangFool
I think we have the same spending plan. I certainly followed the same philosophy ; to save first and rest spend as you like.
Money is meant to be spent. Life is to be enjoyed.

KlangFool

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Nowizard » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:42 am

You reflect our greatest "First world" challenge. Though not wealthy by standards of many posters, we are comfortable with this being largely attributable to disciplined saving and reasonable investment returns over long periods of time. Our issue is basically difficulty moving from an accumulation to a preservation/distribution stage of investing. Like many other important things in life, we tend to focus on Spring and Summer seasons more than Autumn and Winter.

Tim

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midareff
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:37 am

jimkinny wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:45 am
What has helped me is knowing and accepting that if I don't spend my money then my heirs will. I decided to withdraw 3% each January. I started this 2 years ago after after retiring in 2012. I place that money in a a savings account at the same bank as my checking account. It makes it easier to spend and keep track of. The act of transferring the 3% from my investment accounts is just a psychological trick that seems to work for me. I know that I could likely take another 1-2% out yearly but so far that is a bit out of my reach.

Jim
I have a younger wife so I follow the IRS table on RMD requirements while keeping an eye on the VPW tables. FWIW, I too retired in 2012 and my first 4 years averaged a WR of 3.08% and by then I was so far over predictions and wanted to travel more in the years while my arthritic carcass would allow me to so I went to 5% and the bull keeps snorting. .. my decumulating isn't decumulating still although I know that does not go on forever. Real nice to retire into the longest bull on record. I withdraw 1/12 per month automatic from VG, set up to drain taxable and IRA simultaneously... Roth is at FIDO and I draw what adjusts to 5.5% annually, again on a monthly basis, the % adjusted quarterly.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:40 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:21 am
My 90+ year old MIL said "I'm not paying for someone to do my laundry" when we moved them to independent living. Then we handed her the box of laundry pods so she wouldn't have to lug a box of detergent through the halls. She criticized that too. Fast forward a week and she asked us to sign them up for the laundry service...
Until three years ago I cleaned the apartment.. floors vacuumed, tile mopped, every week. I guess I must have lost a little frugality as I hired a maid service then. Still do laundry.. T shirts, water shorts and undie stuff, it's South Florida.. A shirt with a collar and long pants are formal wear here.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:42 am

Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am
I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have. You should feel free to spend on things that bring you genuine joy, and continue saving if there's no point in excess.

Warren Buffett has billions and lives in a house that's smaller and valued much less than many of my peers.
Understood and am definitely not trying to be, or want to be, the leader of the pack. Just a head down middle of the road keep myself under the radar kind of guy.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 am

I don't consider frugality a virtue in itself.

It may be a virtue to LBYM enough during your accumulation years that you can save enough to be financially secure in retirement. It may be a virtue to avoid wasting food or fuel. But spending on things that bring comfort and joy isn't bad if you can afford it, and refusing to spend on those things when you can afford it isn't praiseworthy. Either option is just a matter of personal preference, neither "better" than the other.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by SQRT » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:09 am

Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
I was raised middle class and have no difficulty spending up to my means.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by SQRT » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:13 am

Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am
I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have.
In my opinion, this is debateable and will depend on one’s definition of “frugality”. Especially once retired. Save while working so you can spend in retirement seems reasonable to me. Agree that spending more than you have is a failing.

Wealth can only be spent or given away now or later.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by flaccidsteele » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:37 am

iamblessed wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:21 pm
You can still be frugal just retire 10 or 20 years sooner. No need to change lifestyle.
+ 1

Great suggestion. This is a good idea for those who dislike work or have difficulty achieving work-life balance because of looking after kids, aging parents, etc.
msk wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:57 am
Fly First Class; or your heirs will. LoL, I still agonize over paying full whack for Business Class. Old habits...
+1

This is another good suggestion. One of the worst parts of travel is the flight. First class solves this beautifully. Lines are short, lounges are relaxing, seats are comfortable, you get your luggage before the masses, and stress is low. Highly recommended

Frugality isn’t a virtue. It’s a psychological condition. A psychological issue resulting from a perceived suffering that continues despite the change in circumstances. Extreme frugality is anchored in a feeling of scarcity, that a person owns their money and the amounts are limited

Money isn’t scarce IMO. Time is scarce. Money is plentiful. It’s so plentiful that it becomes worthless over time. And once you reach a certain age, it becomes meaningless

I’m the custodian of money that wasn’t mine when I got it, and won’t be mine in the end. It makes little sense to cling onto a manufactured tool
VictoriaF wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:07 pm
If you think you are being unnecessarily frugal, take advantage of the anchoring bias. Force yourself to buy something expensive, and the next time this or similar purchase will be easier. I now don't think twice about signing up for local comedy courses for ~$300 each and now experimenting with traveling for comedy in New York City.
+1

I think this is a good suggestion. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It depends how deep the psychological impact is that resulted in the frugality. A brush with Death is another good wake up call, but harder to manufacture

My parents are frugal and so are their friends. Their friends are starting to pass and they’re just leaving large sums of money to be used by someone else

I’ve spent money on cars M3, S550, first class flights, watches and, like those on this forum, the NW continues to increase. Until I’m dead. And then someone else will spend it

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Dandy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:22 pm

Old habits that have worked well for decades are hard to change. I am in a similar position in that our income almost equals our normal expenses. The bull market has made our conservatively invested portfolio grow nicely. I started to gradually increase our standard of living e.g. out for dinner more, new vs used car, season tickets to the theater, an extra vacation most years, etc. Our frugal habits still show up when shopping and they are hard to fight e.g. I'm not paying $70 for a pair of jeans!. Next car will have all the latest safety features - I'll pay more for that than buy those jeans. :oops:

We are happy with our current life style and don't have expensive additional wishes. We have decided to gift some "early inheritance" to our children so they and our grandchildren can enjoy life a bit more while we are still here. It seems that even though both couples work hard -- it seems much harder to get a comfortable level of assets then when we started out. e.g. we bought a house for 50k with a 31k mortgage wife could stay at home. Now trying to pay the mortgage for a modest home requires both working which also adds the expense of having kids in nursery school or after care. Also no pensions in most cases and not all have access to employment sponsored health care.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by JediMisty » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:51 pm

shess wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:34 am
delamer wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:15 pm
Small Law Survivor wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:48 pm
I think if you grow up poor or middle class, you behave frugally for the rest of your life, no matter how much money you accumulate. That was true of my parents, it's true of me and my wife.
I know people who grew up poor who love to spend money as adults with good incomes. They felt deprived as children, and spend whatever they earn now to compensate. So basically, they don’t accumulate. :(

That absolutely isn’t true for all people who were poor as children, of course. My parents fit the frugal mold, like yours.
Yeah, I don't think the blanket assertion works. My family had some really dicey times, and I've always been frugal, my sister (3 years younger) often seemed to have no idea how to hold onto a dollar, and my brother (8 years younger) is very similar to me in this area. It's not like our family situation was variable, either, and I don't think our parents shared differently with us, we just took away different things from the experience, I guess.
Well, my sister and I grew up in the same family. Our shared experience included having less toys, clothes, vacations, dinners out, no braces, etc than most of the kids we went to school with. We always had shoes, albeit one pair at a time. And our coats had to last us each two years. I also wore a lot of her hand me downs. (She's the oldest) And our mother made us (terrible) dresses. But we always had enough to eat and mostly medical care. But there were differences in how we were treated. For reasons still mysterious to us, our Dad spoiled my sister with extra gifts and would take her out for treats each week when she hastily spent her meager allowance. Our mother was very strict with money for us both but our Dad would give her money often. I put myself through college. My sister focused on partying. At 61 I have lived BMM my whole life and have 2MM invested and a paid for .5MM house. My sister and her spendthrift husband have declared bankruptcy repeatedly. They just finished a 1.5 year stint living with a friend and have bought a 85k POS condo in Largo, Fla. She's 64 and has no investments. They have one car with a lien. So in our case, different treatment of the family of origin shows up 50 years later. :oops: :dollar

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by willthrill81 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:23 pm

SQRT wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:13 am
Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am
I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have.
In my opinion, this is debateable and will depend on one’s definition of “frugality”. Especially once retired. Save while working so you can spend in retirement seems reasonable to me. Agree that spending more than you have is a failing.

Wealth can only be spent or given away now or later.
I agree that it is debatable, but I would argue that frugality, as I have defined it above, is indeed a virtue in the same way that wastefulness is a vice. I believe frugality to be spending one's resources (i.e. money, time, and effort) mainly on those areas that are most valuable to the individual and minimizing or eliminating everything else. Consequently, I see it as wasteful for individuals to spend significant resources on things that do not matter to them. If flying first class doesn't matter to me, then why I should spend money on it, especially when there are so many very worthy causes that could make much better use of those funds?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by BuddyJet » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:26 pm

I'm comfortably retired but still get a charge from frugality. I don't deny myself things that I really want but find that I don't want much and more stuff is a bother.

Our big charge is shopping for deals on stuff to donate. It's a wonderful feeling to buy over 100 winter coats at Sears for donation when they had a closeout at about 75% off.
People say nothing is impossible. I do nothing all day.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by SQRT » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:36 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:23 pm
SQRT wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:13 am
Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am
I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have.
In my opinion, this is debateable and will depend on one’s definition of “frugality”. Especially once retired. Save while working so you can spend in retirement seems reasonable to me. Agree that spending more than you have is a failing.

Wealth can only be spent or given away now or later.
I agree that it is debatable, but I would argue that frugality, as I have defined it above, is indeed a virtue in the same way that wastefulness is a vice. I believe frugality to be spending one's resources (i.e. money, time, and effort) mainly on those areas that are most valuable to the individual and minimizing or eliminating everything else. Consequently, I see it as wasteful for individuals to spend significant resources on things that do not matter to them. If flying first class doesn't matter to me, then why I should spend money on it, especially when there are so many very worthy causes that could make much better use of those funds?
This definition of “frugality” makes it easy to agree with you. You are basically saying not to spend money on things that aren’t worth it to you. This rational approach is indeed a virtue. The problem is deciding what’s important and how important it is to you. I meet this test ( I think) but I doubt many people would view me as frugal.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by bhsince87 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:30 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:47 am
OP,

1) I save a lot of money. But, I am not frugal.

2) I do "Pay Yourself First" saving method and I spend the rest.


3) I enjoy good food, coffee, and tea.

4) I enjoy good music.

5) I eat out regularly my whole life.

I know what I like and where I would spend more money.

A) I bought an electric bike last year.

B) I will be buying a Karaoke system this week and do some singing at home.

C) I upgraded my tea by buying expensive tea.

In summary, I enjoy certain stuff in life and I would spend more money on it.

What do you enjoy doing?

KlangFool
I agree, and this worked great for me for 35+ years.

But now that I'm retired, it's a different story altogether!

What should I pay myself now when I have no income other than market returns? Should I keep saving?
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace." Samuel Adams

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:12 am

SQRT wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:36 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:23 pm
SQRT wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:13 am
Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:14 am
I think frugality is a virtue in and of itself, unrelated to how much you have.
In my opinion, this is debateable and will depend on one’s definition of “frugality”. Especially once retired. Save while working so you can spend in retirement seems reasonable to me. Agree that spending more than you have is a failing.

Wealth can only be spent or given away now or later.
I agree that it is debatable, but I would argue that frugality, as I have defined it above, is indeed a virtue in the same way that wastefulness is a vice. I believe frugality to be spending one's resources (i.e. money, time, and effort) mainly on those areas that are most valuable to the individual and minimizing or eliminating everything else. Consequently, I see it as wasteful for individuals to spend significant resources on things that do not matter to them. If flying first class doesn't matter to me, then why I should spend money on it, especially when there are so many very worthy causes that could make much better use of those funds?
This definition of “frugality” makes it easy to agree with you. You are basically saying not to spend money on things that aren’t worth it to you. This rational approach is indeed a virtue. The problem is deciding what’s important and how important it is to you. I meet this test ( I think) but I doubt many people would view me as frugal.
I don't really think that it matters much if others view you as frugal. In a real way, I view it as aligning your resource usage with your values. That's just rational and efficient. The problem I see with so many is that they just throw money around at things that clearly aren't important to them, often due to what seems to be simply laziness. But it could also be that many people haven't really consciously considered what is really important to them, and as such, they feel pulled in many directions and waste much of what they have.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by flyingaway » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:56 am

midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:38 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am
After my younger kid left house for his job in another state, I recently decided that we should experience a larger and more desirable lifestyle than we originally planned, and I started doing One More Year(s) to fund the additional expenses.

For example, I spend more money on heating and cooling house (higher utility bill), watering lawn (higher water bill), resuming a very expensive hobby, traveling to Europe with better hotels and food. I am frugal in nature and I still buy price reduced (one day before their expiration date) donuts at Kroger, but I believe most people have an internal desire for better (more expensive) lifestyle, if money is not a problem (or potential problem). In many cases, we withhold spending (live frugally) when we could spend more money, because we do not know what will happen in the future. We worry about potential money shortfall in the future or in later life. We do not know how long we will live. There are lots of uncertainties in the future.

One way of reducing some uncertainties is to keep working (OMY), which may not be the case if you are retired. I am going to evaluate my situations on an every six month basis.
Very intuitive response IMHO. Have been considering moving to a nicer, larger residence in another part of the state for awhile. Once (physically, the travel thing diminishes) the good problem of excess disposable income rears it's not very ugly head. Why not more comfortable?
I also consider to move to another (warmer and more fun) state after retirement, which means now. But my wife does not want to leave her many friends here. It is unlikely that we will have any chances to have many new friends as we get older.

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midareff
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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:21 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:56 am
midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:38 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am
After my younger kid left house for his job in another state, I recently decided that we should experience a larger and more desirable lifestyle than we originally planned, and I started doing One More Year(s) to fund the additional expenses.

For example, I spend more money on heating and cooling house (higher utility bill), watering lawn (higher water bill), resuming a very expensive hobby, traveling to Europe with better hotels and food. I am frugal in nature and I still buy price reduced (one day before their expiration date) donuts at Kroger, but I believe most people have an internal desire for better (more expensive) lifestyle, if money is not a problem (or potential problem). In many cases, we withhold spending (live frugally) when we could spend more money, because we do not know what will happen in the future. We worry about potential money shortfall in the future or in later life. We do not know how long we will live. There are lots of uncertainties in the future.

One way of reducing some uncertainties is to keep working (OMY), which may not be the case if you are retired. I am going to evaluate my situations on an every six month basis.
Very intuitive response IMHO. Have been considering moving to a nicer, larger residence in another part of the state for awhile. Once (physically, the travel thing diminishes) the good problem of excess disposable income rears it's not very ugly head. Why not more comfortable?
I also consider to move to another (warmer and more fun) state after retirement, which means now. But my wife does not want to leave her many friends here. It is unlikely that we will have any chances to have many new friends as we get older.
Hmmmm... make new friends all the time but they can't replace friends of 40, 30, 20 years. All ready in the T shirt and water shorts league living in South Florida.

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by Mel Lindauer » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:52 pm

midareff wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:21 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:56 am
midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:38 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am
After my younger kid left house for his job in another state, I recently decided that we should experience a larger and more desirable lifestyle than we originally planned, and I started doing One More Year(s) to fund the additional expenses.

For example, I spend more money on heating and cooling house (higher utility bill), watering lawn (higher water bill), resuming a very expensive hobby, traveling to Europe with better hotels and food. I am frugal in nature and I still buy price reduced (one day before their expiration date) donuts at Kroger, but I believe most people have an internal desire for better (more expensive) lifestyle, if money is not a problem (or potential problem). In many cases, we withhold spending (live frugally) when we could spend more money, because we do not know what will happen in the future. We worry about potential money shortfall in the future or in later life. We do not know how long we will live. There are lots of uncertainties in the future.

One way of reducing some uncertainties is to keep working (OMY), which may not be the case if you are retired. I am going to evaluate my situations on an every six month basis.
Very intuitive response IMHO. Have been considering moving to a nicer, larger residence in another part of the state for awhile. Once (physically, the travel thing diminishes) the good problem of excess disposable income rears it's not very ugly head. Why not more comfortable?
I also consider to move to another (warmer and more fun) state after retirement, which means now. But my wife does not want to leave her many friends here. It is unlikely that we will have any chances to have many new friends as we get older.
Hmmmm... make new friends all the time but they can't replace friends of 40, 30, 20 years. All ready in the T shirt and water shorts league living in South Florida.
Two things:
1. Just about everyone in Florida came from somewhere else and find that making new friends is extremently easy.
2. You'd be surprised how many of your old friends come to visit you in Florida, especially in the winter months! :-)
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Re: The difficulty of discarding frugality?

Post by midareff » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:53 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:52 pm
midareff wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:21 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:56 am
midareff wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:38 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:56 am
After my younger kid left house for his job in another state, I recently decided that we should experience a larger and more desirable lifestyle than we originally planned, and I started doing One More Year(s) to fund the additional expenses.

For example, I spend more money on heating and cooling house (higher utility bill), watering lawn (higher water bill), resuming a very expensive hobby, traveling to Europe with better hotels and food. I am frugal in nature and I still buy price reduced (one day before their expiration date) donuts at Kroger, but I believe most people have an internal desire for better (more expensive) lifestyle, if money is not a problem (or potential problem). In many cases, we withhold spending (live frugally) when we could spend more money, because we do not know what will happen in the future. We worry about potential money shortfall in the future or in later life. We do not know how long we will live. There are lots of uncertainties in the future.

One way of reducing some uncertainties is to keep working (OMY), which may not be the case if you are retired. I am going to evaluate my situations on an every six month basis.
Very intuitive response IMHO. Have been considering moving to a nicer, larger residence in another part of the state for awhile. Once (physically, the travel thing diminishes) the good problem of excess disposable income rears it's not very ugly head. Why not more comfortable?
I also consider to move to another (warmer and more fun) state after retirement, which means now. But my wife does not want to leave her many friends here. It is unlikely that we will have any chances to have many new friends as we get older.
Hmmmm... make new friends all the time but they can't replace friends of 40, 30, 20 years. All ready in the T shirt and water shorts league living in South Florida.
Two things:
1. Just about everyone in Florida came from somewhere else and find that making new friends is extremently easy.
2. You'd be surprised how many of your old friends come to visit you in Florida, especially in the winter months! :-)


:sharebeer

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