Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

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Topic Author
Random Poster
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Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am

My employment situation has suddenly become more uncertain.

It is possible that I will get laid off or asked to relocate to a city that I do not want to go to.

Accordingly, my question to you is: If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?

Here are the personal details:

Age: I'm 42. Wife is 40.

Debt: None.

Housing: Currently rent. Lease goes though April, 2020. If employment ends, we will move--just not sure to where. Seems
unlikely though that, wherever we end up, if we rent, our housing cost would be more than it is now.

Current Monthly Spend: Budgeted amount is $4500. For the year actual monthly spend in $3745.

Anticipated Future Monthly Spend: Probably somewhere between $5250 and $6250 (or $63K to $75K a year). If I lose my job, we are not sure where we are going, if we are going to buy a house or rent, or what we will do about health care. If we can keep our taxable income under $64K a year, we will likely get health insurance through the ACA. If taxable income exceeds $64K, our spend will likely trend towards the $75K a year amount.


Here are the financial details (all numbers have been rounded down to next whole number):

Cash: $490,000, in various money market funds. Also have $35,000 in a money market that is used to make weekly
$5K investments in the taxable account. Also have $45K in a checking account, which should last for 10 months of
monthly expenses.

Taxable Account: $930K in Vanguard Intermediate-Term Tax-Exempt Bonds (has $20K in capital gains)
$370K in Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund (has $40K in capital gains)
$1.5M in Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (has $680K in capital gains)

Roth IRAs: $30K me/$30K wife (all in Vanguard Total Bond Market Fund)

Traditional and Rollover IRAs: $135K me/105K wife

401K and Retirement Plan: $670K me.

Total Investments: $3,770,000

Total Investments and "Non-Operating" Cash: $4,260,000.

Overall portfolio allocation is roughly 40% US Stocks, 10% International Stocks, and 50% Bonds.


Quite honestly, I have been thinking about leaving work for quite some time, but I would really like to save up another $135K to $175K before doing so. But that might not possible now. And while I'd rather be able to leave on my own terms and timeline rather than on my employer's, that might not be possible now either.

Dividends and interest from the taxable account are averaging around $4750 a month, which covers our current monthly budget, but it won't cover our future anticipated monthly budget with its unknown health care insurance costs. That is a bit worrisome to me. Well, more honestly, that is downright frightening to me.

So, based on the foregoing, If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?

And, as a follow-up question, should I keep up my weekly investments or conserve that cash?


Thank you.

livesoft
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by livesoft » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:31 am

You are a multi-millionaire. You will be OK.
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FlyAF
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by FlyAF » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:33 am

You have 4 million dollars and want to know if you'll be ok if you get laid off?

Jags4186
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Jags4186 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am

While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.

Olemiss540
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Olemiss540 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am

This literally MUST be a joke. OP can cover well over $150k per year perpetually on base expenses near the median household income and is worried for their future.

OP,

Step 1:
Decide where DO you want to move?

Step 2:
Move to place.

Step 3:
Find local establishment.

Step 4:
Celebrate your INDEPENDENCE

Step 5:
Design the rest of your life and push for a brighter future for the rest of the poor, destitute, jobless, sick, etc people out there. Teach, help, love, care, and support those less fortunate and die one day a revered and loved human being.
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.

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Stinky
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Stinky » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am

The maximum spend rate that you quote is $75k per year. And you have more than $4 million.

You could draw 2% from your portfolio each year and hit your $75k nut.

You're in fine shape. Take a deep breath, and don't be frantic about moving to the next job.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

stan1
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by stan1 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:37 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am
Total Investments and "Non-Operating" Cash: $4,260,000.
You have achieved financial independence. That gives you a lot of options. I'd focus on what's next for you. At your age you might have other things you want to do. You don't have to "retire" to the country club. You can find something else that interests you, possibly with a lower salary but more interesting or less stressful. Or, you take some time off as a sabbatical and then get back in the game. Or, you start putting your resume out now. Exercise, spend time with your family. You don't want to dwell on the negative. Think of this as an opportunity.

Health insurance is always a major concern so you'd want to figure out your plan for that. If your company typically offers good severance packages I don't see a downside to taking it.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:40 am

Does your state of residence offer unemployment insurance? It may not be much but it will be something.

You are 42, you can look for another job. There must be some skills in your toolset that can be used elsewhere, no? If you have not already done so, polish off the resume and start applying elsewhere. Does your wife work?

I think you will be fine, you are super liquid. Just in your money market and municipal fund you have enough cash to keep you going for close to 15 years. You should not panic. If you want, stop investing money. If/when you lose employment take some time to decompress, it sounds like you are putting too much unnecessary self imposed pressure on yourself. Why?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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fizxman
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by fizxman » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:44 am

My net worth is about one-tenth of yours and I've been laid off since mid-July (luckily I start a new job in about a week) but I'm okay and so will you. You got COBRA for health insurance, you can get a few bucks with unemployment, but best of all for you, you're sitting on a large pile of cash.

Getting laid off is depressing. Getting turned down for jobs while unemployed is depressing. Luckily, you don't have to worry about money running out for quite some time.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:48 am

Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke. OP can cover well over $150k per year perpetually on base expenses near the median household income and is worried for their future.


Step 1:
Decide where DO you want to move?

Step 2:
Move to place.


Step 4:
Celebrate your INDEPENDENCE

It’s probably not a joke. Some people are creatures of habit, they constantly worry even when they shouldn’t. It’s not healthy which is why I recommended he take time to decompress. I agree, he is financially secure. One who is accustomed to always working, saving investing though will think their world has just been turned upside down. A lay-off is a stressful event for most people, it’s worse if his place of current employ uses the threat of layoffs as a sword of Damocles hanging over his head each day he goes to office. It’s not healthy. I can understand waiting to see if a severance package will be given though, why pass it up? So he stays. With or without it the OP should be fine.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

Topic Author
Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 am

Jags4186 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am
While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.
Security and optionality, mostly.

I'd like to have $625K or so in cash and maybe use some of that to buy, say, a $400K house with a bit leftover for furniture. As it stands now, with $490K, after setting aside $30K for a future car, $40 for furniture, and $75K to $150K for safe living expenses, the maximum spend on a house is something around $270K or so. Not horrible, but it does limit the choices a bit.

Topic Author
Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am

Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.

HomeStretch
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by HomeStretch » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:02 am

With a $4.26k portfolio and $75k annual spend, you have 57x annual expenses saved (before SS income).

You will absolutely positively be fine if you are laid off even without a severance package. Do start updating your resume etc. just to feel like you are doing “something” about a work situation you have no control over. Best of luck.

ETA: if you haven’t already, read CyclingDuo’s thread about layoffs. It has a lot of good info:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=273092&hilit=Lay+off
Last edited by HomeStretch on Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

DiMAn0684
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by DiMAn0684 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:02 am

You're fine. Also, just based on the amount of money you accumulated in your early 40s, I assume you have sufficient skills to easily get a job that will cover all your day-to-day expenses.

P.S. I know where you're coming from. Sometimes I stress about spending an amount of money that's likely less than 5% of daily change in my portfolio, so it helps to get an outside perspective.
Last edited by DiMAn0684 on Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:03 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am
While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.
Security and optionality, mostly.

I'd like to have $625K or so in cash and maybe use some of that to buy, say, a $400K house with a bit leftover for furniture. As it stands now, with $490K, after setting aside $30K for a future car, $40 for furniture, and $75K to $150K for safe living expenses, the maximum spend on a house is something around $270K or so. Not horrible, but it does limit the choices a bit.
There is a difference between wants and needs. You have more than enough to satisfy needs, if you want a house then you may need to seek employment for the next 10 years or so. Depending upon how much income you will earn in new job.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

clip651
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by clip651 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:07 am

If you want more cash, sell a bit of your stock funds from taxable. Stocks are high right now, so it's not a bad time to make your AA slightly more conservative if it will help you sleep and give you more flexibility.

But really, you're in great shape regardless of what happens with your current job. Take some deep breaths. Changes may be ahead, but you will be fine. Livesoft said so in the first reply to your thread!

cj

Dudley
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Dudley » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:09 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night.
Take a moment and think about those in their 50s or 60s who have no skills, credit card debt, no savings and cannot even stump up a couple of hundred dollars would feel.

Olemiss540
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Olemiss540 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:12 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
My apologies for coming off harsh. My advice still holds and if the uncertainty is what is causing your loss of sleep, quit and be certain. You have earned the sleep you so desire by thoughtful and prudent investment to amass your wealth.
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.

Thegame14
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Thegame14 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:15 am

also it is small, but you can collect unemployment for a while, that is like $2,500 a month for like 9 months.

clip651
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by clip651 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:17 am

clip651 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:07 am
If you want more cash, sell a bit of your stock funds from taxable. Stocks are high right now, so it's not a bad time to make your AA slightly more conservative if it will help you sleep and give you more flexibility.

But really, you're in great shape regardless of what happens with your current job. Take some deep breaths. Changes may be ahead, but you will be fine. Livesoft said so in the first reply to your thread!

cj
Actually, you have almost 7 figures in intermediate term bonds in addition to your cash. You can always spend some from the bonds if needed. I think you can leave your stocks alone and have plenty of flexibility.

And there's no need to move immediately if your current employment ends, either. There is no rush to make more changes.

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Tamarind
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Tamarind » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:19 am

OP, if I were you I'd have retired about $1.5M ago, and my family has similar target spending to yours.

I suggest you take the loss of the job as a needed kick to remind you that you are financially independent and don't need to work. Now go find something interesting to do with yourself!

FrugalConservative
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by FrugalConservative » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:29 am

Get a grip man.

You are worth 4mm and worried about getting laid off. :oops:

Imagine if you actually had really worries in life like most people in life.

Freefun
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Freefun » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:37 am

You are in terrific shape financially. No need to think about or compare yourself to others. Based on your post you have the wherewithal to manage things- there’s lots of exciting options and opportunities for you ahead.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?

Startingover2019
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Startingover2019 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:38 am

FlyAF wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:33 am
You have 4 million dollars and want to know if you'll be ok if you get laid off?
Seriously. I kept reading and my disbelief kept growing.
Some people really live in a different world.

BillWalters
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by BillWalters » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:38 am

Go volunteer, or travel, or something. Your perspective is absurd.

Startingover2019
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Startingover2019 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 am
Jags4186 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:34 am
While part of me wants to ask if this is a serious questions, assuming you are being serious, it seems you are more than fine. I don’t understand what an additional $135k - $175k ontop of the $4.3 million you already have is going to do for you.
Security and optionality, mostly.

I'd like to have $625K or so in cash and maybe use some of that to buy, say, a $400K house with a bit leftover for furniture. As it stands now, with $490K, after setting aside $30K for a future car, $40 for furniture, and $75K to $150K for safe living expenses, the maximum spend on a house is something around $270K or so. Not horrible, but it does limit the choices a bit.
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?

Dave55
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:56 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am
My employment situation has suddenly become more uncertain.

It is possible that I will get laid off or asked to relocate to a city that I do not want to go to.

Accordingly, my question to you is: If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?

Here are the personal details:

Age: I'm 42. Wife is 40.

Debt: None.

Housing: Currently rent. Lease goes though April, 2020. If employment ends, we will move--just not sure to where. Seems
unlikely though that, wherever we end up, if we rent, our housing cost would be more than it is now.

Current Monthly Spend: Budgeted amount is $4500. For the year actual monthly spend in $3745.

Anticipated Future Monthly Spend: Probably somewhere between $5250 and $6250 (or $63K to $75K a year). If I lose my job, we are not sure where we are going, if we are going to buy a house or rent, or what we will do about health care. If we can keep our taxable income under $64K a year, we will likely get health insurance through the ACA. If taxable income exceeds $64K, our spend will likely trend towards the $75K a year amount.


Here are the financial details (all numbers have been rounded down to next whole number):

Cash: $490,000, in various money market funds. Also have $35,000 in a money market that is used to make weekly
$5K investments in the taxable account. Also have $45K in a checking account, which should last for 10 months of
monthly expenses.

Taxable Account: $930K in Vanguard Intermediate-Term Tax-Exempt Bonds (has $20K in capital gains)
$370K in Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund (has $40K in capital gains)
$1.5M in Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (has $680K in capital gains)

Roth IRAs: $30K me/$30K wife (all in Vanguard Total Bond Market Fund)

Traditional and Rollover IRAs: $135K me/105K wife

401K and Retirement Plan: $670K me.

Total Investments: $3,770,000

Total Investments and "Non-Operating" Cash: $4,260,000.

Overall portfolio allocation is roughly 40% US Stocks, 10% International Stocks, and 50% Bonds.


Quite honestly, I have been thinking about leaving work for quite some time, but I would really like to save up another $135K to $175K before doing so. But that might not possible now. And while I'd rather be able to leave on my own terms and timeline rather than on my employer's, that might not be possible now either.

Dividends and interest from the taxable account are averaging around $4750 a month, which covers our current monthly budget, but it won't cover our future anticipated monthly budget with its unknown health care insurance costs. That is a bit worrisome to me. Well, more honestly, that is downright frightening to me.

So, based on the foregoing, If I lose my employment, and even if I do not receive any sort of severance package, will we be okay?

And, as a follow-up question, should I keep up my weekly investments or conserve that cash?


Thank you.
With your cash & bonds cushion, you have plenty of time to figure out your next job/career move when the time comes, that is, if you want to go back to work.

Dave

LongRoad
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by LongRoad » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:07 am

OP: Sorry to hear of your situation. Not because you're in any financial danger, but because it is obviously causing you such distress.

Something that might help, if you're able.

Try to distance yourself from your feelings, and read your post through a lens as if it were posted by a newcomer here. Think of what advice you'd offer, and draft a helpful response to them (don't post it). Then sit back and read the advice you'd give yourself. I'd have to think you'd be able to reassure the newcomer that any problems they will have won't be financial in nature.

Best of luck to you.

wolf359
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by wolf359 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:08 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
Loss of job is an emergency. That's what the cash is for.
Cash: $490,000, in various money market funds. Also have $35,000 in a money market that is used to make weekly
$5K investments in the taxable account. Also have $45K in a checking account, which should last for 10 months of
monthly expenses.
First, your expenses are covered for 10 months from your checking account balance alone. Should you not find another job in that time, you can start tapping your $490K, for an additional 9 years.

Calm down, and take a breath. And another breath, and another. Actually, you have 10 years of breathing room to find another job. If you are unable to do that, then you may have to start living off your dividends in your taxable account.

Ten years from now, your balance should have grown considerably, and will probably have doubled (according to the rule of 72). However, your taxable account already throws off enough dividends TODAY to fund your current expenses. You're probably getting about 2% in dividends, or approximately $4,667/month. This means you are already financially independent.

My suggestions:
Make sure your checking account is funded for a year. You know you have no worries for that time. Then figure out what you want to do next.

There is a very big difference between having enough money to live on, and structuring it so that you're actually living on it. It also requires you to be mentally prepared to start drawing down your assets.

You're fine. In fact, if you want it, you're done. Give yourself a year to figure it out.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:20 am

Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
$40k?

If I were to hit $40k, I'd have to include buying a new Kabota BX 4x4 diesel tractor and a new 4 post lift. Even then......
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

KlangFool
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by KlangFool » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:20 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:29 am

If we can keep our taxable income under $64K a year, we will likely get health insurance through the ACA. If taxable income exceeds $64K, our spend will likely trend towards the $75K a year amount.

Random Poster,

With the amount of money that you have in the taxable account, this may not be possible. But, on the other hand, you could afford COBRA insurance from your ex-employer. And, you have only 60 days to sign up. You should plan to sign up for COBRA as a backup plan.

KlangFool

bloom2708
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by bloom2708 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:27 am

I would just rent if you end up somewhere.

Don't rush and buy a house just because you can. It anchors you down. Stay flexible. At least until "new normal" takes hold.

You will be completely fine. What if you cruise along for 5 years. Can you find A job? Certainly. There are jobs everywhere. Maybe not the pay you are used to, but a lower stress/part-time/part-year job might not be too bad.

Congrats on your success. Change and dealing with change is a complex animal. You are way ahead and that gives you fantastic options. You didn't mention kids. If it is just you and the spouse, the world is your oyster.

Buy a Leisure Travel Van Serenity Murphy Bed edition and travel the US/Canada until you find a place to land. :beer
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Lalamimi
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Lalamimi » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:30 am

If they offer you a job in another city and you decline, will you get a severance package? Usually not. Is your wife working? If not, why not.
I was laid off last year age 64. That is when you worry, not at 40.
If you really are worried, get ready NOW. Go get checkups and all meds filled. Cut your internet/TV bill. Cut your cell phone bill. Don't eat out, including at work. Get your resume updated. You will probably be laid off and or fired another 3 or 4 times in your career. Don't fret now.

stoptothink
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by stoptothink » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:32 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:20 am
Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
$40k?

If I were to hit $40k, I'd have to include buying a new Kabota BX 4x4 diesel tractor and a new 4 post lift. Even then......
Our home was furnished for <$4k...Needless to say, this thread is bizarro world for 95% of the population. If I remember correctly, OP has hated their job for a while; in their shoes I would have called it quits a while ago.

smitcat
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by smitcat » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:46 am

Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke. OP can cover well over $150k per year perpetually on base expenses near the median household income and is worried for their future.

OP,

Step 1:
Decide where DO you want to move?

Step 2:
Move to place.

Step 3:
Find local establishment.

Step 4:
Celebrate your INDEPENDENCE

Step 5:
Design the rest of your life and push for a brighter future for the rest of the poor, destitute, jobless, sick, etc people out there. Teach, help, love, care, and support those less fortunate and die one day a revered and loved human being.

"This literally MUST be a joke. OP can cover well over $150k per year perpetually on base expenses near the median household income and is worried for their future."
I do not understand how you get well over $150K per year in perpetuity with a 50/50 portfolio and the OP's approx. $4 million?

retiredjg
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by retiredjg » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:47 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
Your problem is not your finances. You are way beyond just being OK, but you can't see it.

Your problem is emotional. I believe your "sick and worried and cannot sleep" is real. Even "rich" people have uncertainties and you apparently do not handle uncertainty well.

You have already identified the problem (handling uncertainty). I don't know what the solution is, but I'd concentrate on that, not on the money.

I feel sure that logic is at least a partial solution to your angst so let's try a little of that. Let's say your monthly expenses grow to $10k. You'll need about $5k from your portfolio to get by (in addition to what the portfolio is already supplying). How many months will that $490,000 in cash cover at $5k a month.

Does it seem likely you will get another job within that time period?

Let's say you don't get another job and your expenses grow to $10k a month ($120k a year plus taxes). That would be about a 3.2% withdrawal rate until Medicare kicks in and even less than that when you take SS. That may be less than the buffer you wanted but it is certainly not a reckless withdrawal rate by any means.

If you were unhappy at your job, this may turn out to be a real blessing in disguise. Financially, there is no need for panic. Give this (and yourself) time to work through this rough patch.

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Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 am

Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
Well, we currently rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

If we were to buy a house, it would presumably be a 3 bedroom one. Which would require purchasing two new beds ($2K each, maybe?), some bedside tables ($1K, total?), probably a new couch ($2K, I guess?), some regular tables ($1K?), perhaps some chest or drawers or whatever it is called for the dining room (1K?), probably some rugs ($2K?), likely some window treatments of some sorts (who knows how much that costs), maybe some outdoor seating ($3K?), and probably a lot of paint and the like, or even new flooring ($5K?).

And then we'd need outdoor equipment, like a mower, some shovels, a rake, hoses, and so on. Just the basic stuff that pretty much every homeowner has but likely no apartment dweller does. All of that will likely cost at least $5K.

I'm not sure what the total amount of everything would (or even should) be, but I'm sure that it all adds up quickly.

njuser
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by njuser » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:57 am

Dear OP-

I am an extremely nervous, ultra-saver and I think you are fine.

You should feel great. My husband worries about his job too and I have to keep reminding him that he literally doesn't need to work anymore. It's just that mindset about losing control. You actually have control. Enjoy it.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by EnjoyIt » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:04 am

I have read several posts in the past from OP who in general is a “fearful of the financial future” individual. Reality is, that Random Poster will be just fine and can spend much more than $75K/yr.

Unfortunately OP ran some crazy Monte Carlo scenarios that has created this fear and no amount of conversation in the past has dissuaded him of it.

There really is no advice anyone here can give that can help with this irrationality. Maybe seeing a retirement expert and a counselor to address these fears can be money very well spent.

I am truly sorry for your fear and very much hope you can get better and move on. Good luck since financially you are just fine and will likely have to consider estate taxes in the future.
Last edited by EnjoyIt on Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Random Poster
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Random Poster » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:05 am

bloom2708 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:27 am
I would just rent if you end up somewhere.

Don't rush and buy a house just because you can. It anchors you down. Stay flexible. At least until "new normal" takes hold.
I appreciate this comment.

I am seriously wondering whether it would be better to buy a house now in order to "fix" a large portion of our living expenses or if it would be better to keep renting even if that means that our annual spending is higher than it might be with a house. I'd like to run some anticipated numbers to see what comes out better: obviously, a house comes with upkeep, property taxes, and insurance costs that are higher than what renters insurance costs, but if the total of that is less than what you'd pay in rent, wouldn't buying make more sense even if you reduce your cash holdings?

We aren't sure to where we should move, but we have a few location ideas. Some are cheaper than others, and some have very little rental inventory.

bloom2708 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:27 am
You didn't mention kids. If it is just you and the spouse, the world is your oyster.
No kids that I am aware of.

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Stinky
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Stinky » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:07 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 am
Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
Well, we currently rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

If we were to buy a house, it would presumably be a 3 bedroom one. Which would require purchasing two new beds ($2K each, maybe?), some bedside tables ($1K, total?), probably a new couch ($2K, I guess?), some regular tables ($1K?), perhaps some chest or drawers or whatever it is called for the dining room (1K?), probably some rugs ($2K?), likely some window treatments of some sorts (who knows how much that costs), maybe some outdoor seating ($3K?), and probably a lot of paint and the like, or even new flooring ($5K?).

And then we'd need outdoor equipment, like a mower, some shovels, a rake, hoses, and so on. Just the basic stuff that pretty much every homeowner has but likely no apartment dweller does. All of that will likely cost at least $5K.

I'm not sure what the total amount of everything would (or even should) be, but I'm sure that it all adds up quickly.
I would definitely continue to rent until your employment situation is resolved. That is, you keep your current job. Or, lose your current job, maybe relocate, and get a new job.

Having a house is much more complex than renting. No reason to complicate your life right now.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

travelnut11
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by travelnut11 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:08 am

OP, I recommend therapy. I understand your fear is real but it is so misplaced. If you don't get help you're never going to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Financially you're fine and if I had the assets you have I'd be done right now (we're the same age). Actually, I probably would've been done 1.5 million ago (as someone else said).
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrowmindedness ...and many of our people need it solely on these accounts. - Mark Twain | | Life is either a daring adventure or it is nothing. - Helen Keller

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:13 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 am
Startingover2019 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:45 am
I need to know what kind of furniture people are buying for 40k. Serious question because I have filled up a 3,000 SF house full of furniture for like 8k. But I don’t like a lot of extra stuff. How much house are you buying and where do you buy this furniture from?
Well, we currently rent a 1 bedroom apartment.

If we were to buy a house, it would presumably be a 3 bedroom one. Which would require purchasing two new beds ($2K each, maybe?), some bedside tables ($1K, total?), probably a new couch ($2K, I guess?), some regular tables ($1K?), perhaps some chest or drawers or whatever it is called for the dining room (1K?), probably some rugs ($2K?), likely some window treatments of some sorts (who knows how much that costs), maybe some outdoor seating ($3K?), and probably a lot of paint and the like, or even new flooring ($5K?).

And then we'd need outdoor equipment, like a mower, some shovels, a rake, hoses, and so on. Just the basic stuff that pretty much every homeowner has but likely no apartment dweller does. All of that will likely cost at least $5K.

I'm not sure what the total amount of everything would (or even should) be, but I'm sure that it all adds up quickly.
OP, you need to get out more.

You can buy a great mattress, box spring, and even a bedframe at Costco and not spend $600.
A "beside table" is called a "night table". If you spend more than say $300 on one, something is wrong.
A couch can be purchased for $1,000 or less.
A mower, shovels, rake and hoses won't cost a fraction of $5,000. Given you have never mowed, you'd either hire a service or buy a $300 - $500 push mower.

With your money, worrying shouldn't be on your list.

I worked for a company 2007 - 2008. Started off great, then I realized what a monster the CEO was. We went through multiple layoffs. I had to decimate staff. I couldn't sleep at night due to the pressure, and was about to resign when the next layoff caught me, just a few weeks after I helped one of my subordinates file a complaint against a coworker who happened to have too close a relationship with the CEO.

I came home that day, before 9, since I was the most senior laid off that day, with a huge smile on my face. Rejoice, freedom is near!
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

J295
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by J295 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:20 am

Respectfully, OP you may wish to consider whether this may not a strictly financial issue. It is possible that financial angst/job loss may be the symptom, with something entirely different being the cause. Taking care of a symptom typically provides relief, while fixing a cause typically provides long term healing.

Best of luck.

clip651
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by clip651 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:24 am

What does your wife think about all of this?

And definitely, definitely, do not buy a house until you are super duper sure where you want to live for the next bunch of years. No need to tie yourself down. With your savings, you could travel and stay in expensive hotels for extended time periods to try out various locations to and hardly put a dent in your savings.

At this stage, a house will add to your worries. Maybe later it's the right move, maybe not. But not while you are in this frame of mind. Travel, or rent a nicer apartment, or stay where you are for now until the dust settles and you and your wife figure things out.

best wishes,
cj

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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:36 am

The OP is not alone. DW falls into the same shoes. An example.....when showing DW my investments spreadsheet (we only have about $2.5M), I said something like "I could stop working right now". She got very angry and upset and said that we have college to pay for, we can't possibly stop working. So I asked for informational purposes...."what if we had $10M?", $100M?, $100 Billion dollars? Even then, to her, it wasn't enough because we have to pay for college and how can we possibly do it without working. There isn't a way to look at glide paths and spread sheets and logic when someone has that much fear of failure to have enough to live on.

So OP......is your number more than $100 Billion? No, really....is it?
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Watty
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by Watty » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:54 am

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
Olemiss540 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am
This literally MUST be a joke.
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
Financially you will be fine.

In addition to your savings you will also get Social Security some day.

Don't discount the non-financial aspects of being "OK" though since even if you find a new job tomorrow this would still be a big change in your life. Even people who retire at the traditional age of 65 have a hard time adjusting to it and they have know when it was coming for a long time.

Unless you wanted to you will also likely not be retiring, you will find some other job even if it takes a while.

It would be good to consider getting some professional counseling to help you adjust to the change to sleep better at night. You may be able have your health insurance pay for the counseling or your employer may have some sort of EAP(employee assistance program)

I went through a similar situation during a merger but for me moving made sense for a number of reasons. To the companies credit they offered to relocate anyone who wanted to relocate including clerical staff. Out of an office of around 100 people only 3 IT people including myself decided to relocate.

That was not long after the Dot Com bust, and Y2K projects were winding down, so the IT job market was very bad at that time.

A couple of things to watch out for;

1) The timing of the layoff may be unpredictable. People were laid off at different times, some people were laid right after the announcement but other people were not laid off until the office was finally closed over a year later.

2) The original plan was to close the office within a in a year but it took longer than planned so some people had to stick around for about 18 months to get the severance. The people who remained did not have a fun time. They were either swamped with work or they were had little to do and were bored. The uncertainty of just when they would laid off made their job hunting difficult.

3) Of the three of us who relocated the other two people were laid off within about five years. They were not real strong employees but once their jobs were transitioned they were not really needed. I continued to work there for about 13 more years until I voluntarily retired but I was in sort of a special situation.
Last edited by Watty on Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

GT99
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by GT99 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:07 am

travelnut11 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:08 am
OP, I recommend therapy. I understand your fear is real but it is so misplaced. If you don't get help you're never going to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Financially you're fine and if I had the assets you have I'd be done right now (we're the same age). Actually, I probably would've been done 1.5 million ago (as someone else said).
This post might be interpreted as a slight, but I genuinely agree - the level of paranoia that leads to stress the impacts sleep here is major. It's akin to not being able to sleep because you're worried about a meteor striking your home.

If I were the OP and had that much saved with no kids, I would have been retired a long time ago. As it is, I have 2 young kids, and I'd be very close to retirement if I had that much saved.

visualguy
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by visualguy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:04 pm

At your age, just focus on finding another job if you lose your current job. Don't obsess about whether you have enough to last you for the rest of your life and your wife's life (which could be 50+ years). You should be able to find another job. You definitely have enough not to stress too much about the situation. Just keep your career on track, or get it back on track.

SrGrumpy
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Re: Possible Layoff: Need Assurance That We Will Be Okay

Post by SrGrumpy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:29 pm

Random Poster wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:00 am
It isn't a joke. Since the news hit, I have felt pretty sick and worried and couldn't sleep at all last night. Got up at 2:00 and came into the office to think and ponder. And to post my query. I do not handle uncertainty well.
You're clearly a successful, hard-working guy - and now you are being rejected, tossed on the scrap heap. Some reward! I understand your anxiety, and I doubt any advice here can ameliorate things. You are who you are. Just remember that you are still super young, and stay focused on the doors that will open up for you rather than on the imaginary trapdoors. Keep the wife in the loop. Hopefully you'll look back on this period with a modest amount of gratitude.

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