Ok to go without health insurance?

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EnjoyIt
Posts: 3211
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:59 am
.....

If it ends up I'm one of the lucky ones that looses money on health insurance I'm OK with that. I think it is almost my social responsibility to contribute to the funds that might help my neighbor in a time of need. Perhaps instead of buying insurance, I could buy shares in an insurance company, but that would rub me the wrong way.

I'm curious what you decide to do. There is no right or wrong decision. Do what feels right to you.
That's the problem, you buying insurance is mostly used to pay for the profits and salaries of the insurance industry. The whole thing is a bit of a scam. Most of the time insurance today is like a third party bookie taking their cut, and rarely they act as a catastrophic insurance plan.

I pay for it also, but many times have contemplated going the route of OP.
That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.

EnjoyIt
Posts: 3211
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am

dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:33 am

The ironic thing for me is the OP is a medical professional. Likely most of their income comes from insurance companies, or premium payers. But they are considering not paying for health insurance. Maybe their practice is in optional medicine. That would make more sense to me. Why pay for insurance for something that is optional?
As a medical professional I completely see how the insurance industry is a total farce. I'm sure OP sees the same thing as I do which is why I to considered going without. I honestly don't have the fortitude for it.

delamer
Posts: 9492
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by delamer » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am

EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:59 am
.....

If it ends up I'm one of the lucky ones that looses money on health insurance I'm OK with that. I think it is almost my social responsibility to contribute to the funds that might help my neighbor in a time of need. Perhaps instead of buying insurance, I could buy shares in an insurance company, but that would rub me the wrong way.

I'm curious what you decide to do. There is no right or wrong decision. Do what feels right to you.
That's the problem, you buying insurance is mostly used to pay for the profits and salaries of the insurance industry. The whole thing is a bit of a scam. Most of the time insurance today is like a third party bookie taking their cut, and rarely they act as a catastrophic insurance plan.

I pay for it also, but many times have contemplated going the route of OP.
That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.
1. Discussing the provisions of the ACA is different than discussing the politics.

2. Your statement that premiums are “mostly used to pay for the profits and the salaries of the insurance industry “ is simply wrong. You may think that profits/salaries are excessive, but that doesn’t mean they make up 51% (or more) of costs — which is what “mostly” means.

EddyB
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by EddyB » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:48 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:59 am
.....

If it ends up I'm one of the lucky ones that looses money on health insurance I'm OK with that. I think it is almost my social responsibility to contribute to the funds that might help my neighbor in a time of need. Perhaps instead of buying insurance, I could buy shares in an insurance company, but that would rub me the wrong way.

I'm curious what you decide to do. There is no right or wrong decision. Do what feels right to you.
That's the problem, you buying insurance is mostly used to pay for the profits and salaries of the insurance industry. The whole thing is a bit of a scam. Most of the time insurance today is like a third party bookie taking their cut, and rarely they act as a catastrophic insurance plan.

I pay for it also, but many times have contemplated going the route of OP.
That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
Yes, one of the marvels of the model is that it incentivizes the insurance industry to inflate medical costs.

dknightd
Posts: 1930
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by dknightd » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:08 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:21 am
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:33 am

The ironic thing for me is the OP is a medical professional. Likely most of their income comes from insurance companies, or premium payers. But they are considering not paying for health insurance. Maybe their practice is in optional medicine. That would make more sense to me. Why pay for insurance for something that is optional?
As a medical professional I completely see how the insurance industry is a total farce. I'm sure OP sees the same thing as I do which is why I to considered going without. I honestly don't have the fortitude for it.
IMO medical professionals are in cahoots with insurance providers. As near as I can tell both make more money than I ever did. Perhaps that is justified. But I see greed from both sides. Insurance companies want to make money. Doctors want to make money. Hospitals want to make money. It is natural.

DeerRunner
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:57 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by DeerRunner » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:19 pm

Not sure if its been mentioned, but you could always go with a "short term" plan (that you can renew indefinitely for up to a year at a time, iirc). They can be had for as little as $300 a month for a family of four, and you can choose your out of pocket max and deductable. Two main catches is they have a lifetime max of $1mil per person, and they don't cover pre-existing conditions. Better then nothing.

EnjoyIt
Posts: 3211
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:52 pm

delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:59 am
.....

If it ends up I'm one of the lucky ones that looses money on health insurance I'm OK with that. I think it is almost my social responsibility to contribute to the funds that might help my neighbor in a time of need. Perhaps instead of buying insurance, I could buy shares in an insurance company, but that would rub me the wrong way.

I'm curious what you decide to do. There is no right or wrong decision. Do what feels right to you.
That's the problem, you buying insurance is mostly used to pay for the profits and salaries of the insurance industry. The whole thing is a bit of a scam. Most of the time insurance today is like a third party bookie taking their cut, and rarely they act as a catastrophic insurance plan.

I pay for it also, but many times have contemplated going the route of OP.
That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.
1. Discussing the provisions of the ACA is different than discussing the politics.

2. Your statement that premiums are “mostly used to pay for the profits and the salaries of the insurance industry “ is simply wrong. You may think that profits/salaries are excessive, but that doesn’t mean they make up 51% (or more) of costs — which is what “mostly” means.
Fine, Mr. Exact, "mostly" is a wrong term, but, there is a reason why the insurance industry's profits have skyrocketed since implementation of the ACA. The insurance industry inflates the cost of every aspect of medicine and takes a piece of the action. They are the bookie taking their 20% on every transaction and forcing the hospitals and providers to spend time and money dealing with them. They are also one of the main reasons administrative costs are so high inflating the cost of healthcare for everyone. The insurance industry is a leach on the healthcare system that currently employs 100s of thousands of people and will be very difficult to expunge.
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:08 pm
IMO medical professionals are in cahoots with insurance providers. As near as I can tell both make more money than I ever did. Perhaps that is justified. But I see greed from both sides. Insurance companies want to make money. Doctors want to make money. Hospitals want to make money. It is natural.
Believe me, medical professionals are far from cahoots with those crooks. Sure everyone wants to make an extra buck but we would prefer if things were different.

delamer
Posts: 9492
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by delamer » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:06 pm

EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:52 pm
delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:41 am


That's the problem, you buying insurance is mostly used to pay for the profits and salaries of the insurance industry. The whole thing is a bit of a scam. Most of the time insurance today is like a third party bookie taking their cut, and rarely they act as a catastrophic insurance plan.

I pay for it also, but many times have contemplated going the route of OP.
That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.
1. Discussing the provisions of the ACA is different than discussing the politics.

2. Your statement that premiums are “mostly used to pay for the profits and the salaries of the insurance industry “ is simply wrong. You may think that profits/salaries are excessive, but that doesn’t mean they make up 51% (or more) of costs — which is what “mostly” means.
Fine, Mr. Exact, "mostly" is a wrong term, but, there is a reason why the insurance industry's profits have skyrocketed since implementation of the ACA. The insurance industry inflates the cost of every aspect of medicine and takes a piece of the action. They are the bookie taking their 20% on every transaction and forcing the hospitals and providers to spend time and money dealing with them. They are also one of the main reasons administrative costs are so high inflating the cost of healthcare for everyone. The insurance industry is a leach on the healthcare system that currently employs 100s of thousands of people and will be very difficult to expunge.
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:08 pm
IMO medical professionals are in cahoots with insurance providers. As near as I can tell both make more money than I ever did. Perhaps that is justified. But I see greed from both sides. Insurance companies want to make money. Doctors want to make money. Hospitals want to make money. It is natural.
Believe me, medical professionals are far from cahoots with those crooks. Sure everyone wants to make an extra buck but we would prefer if things were different.
I am sure I’ve been called names occasionally in the past, but “Mr.” has never been one of them.

Insurance is here to stay, but undoubtedly can be improved upon in terms of both quality and costs. As is true for the other components of our health care system.

And if you are going to make an argument, then the language you use is important. Misusing it undercuts your point.

EnjoyIt
Posts: 3211
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:06 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:21 pm

delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:06 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:52 pm
delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am


That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.
1. Discussing the provisions of the ACA is different than discussing the politics.

2. Your statement that premiums are “mostly used to pay for the profits and the salaries of the insurance industry “ is simply wrong. You may think that profits/salaries are excessive, but that doesn’t mean they make up 51% (or more) of costs — which is what “mostly” means.
Fine, Mr. Exact, "mostly" is a wrong term, but, there is a reason why the insurance industry's profits have skyrocketed since implementation of the ACA. The insurance industry inflates the cost of every aspect of medicine and takes a piece of the action. They are the bookie taking their 20% on every transaction and forcing the hospitals and providers to spend time and money dealing with them. They are also one of the main reasons administrative costs are so high inflating the cost of healthcare for everyone. The insurance industry is a leach on the healthcare system that currently employs 100s of thousands of people and will be very difficult to expunge.
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:08 pm
IMO medical professionals are in cahoots with insurance providers. As near as I can tell both make more money than I ever did. Perhaps that is justified. But I see greed from both sides. Insurance companies want to make money. Doctors want to make money. Hospitals want to make money. It is natural.
Believe me, medical professionals are far from cahoots with those crooks. Sure everyone wants to make an extra buck but we would prefer if things were different.
I am sure I’ve been called names occasionally in the past, but “Mr.” has never been one of them.

Insurance is here to stay, but undoubtedly can be improved upon in terms of both quality and costs. As is true for the other components of our health care system.

And if you are going to make an argument, then the language you use is important. Misusing it undercuts your point.
Yes Ma'am.

I was being dramatic. I did not expect we were about to have a lecture on semantics.

michaeljc70
Posts: 6073
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Ok to go without health insurance?

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:39 pm

delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:06 pm
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:52 pm
delamer wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am
EnjoyIt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:19 am
michaeljc70 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:45 am


That is not correct. The ACA requires most insurers to pay at least 80% of their premiums on health care claims and quality improvement, leaving 20% for administration, marketing, and profit. For the large group market it is a minimum 85% medical loss ratio. Are people in the insurance industry supposed to work for free? Are people investing in insurance companies supposed to do so without getting any return?
We should not discuss the ACA or any other laws/politics in this thread. If you want to talk about this further please feel free to PM me. There is a reason why all the insurance companies profits have increased since the ACA.
1. Discussing the provisions of the ACA is different than discussing the politics.

2. Your statement that premiums are “mostly used to pay for the profits and the salaries of the insurance industry “ is simply wrong. You may think that profits/salaries are excessive, but that doesn’t mean they make up 51% (or more) of costs — which is what “mostly” means.
Fine, Mr. Exact, "mostly" is a wrong term, but, there is a reason why the insurance industry's profits have skyrocketed since implementation of the ACA. The insurance industry inflates the cost of every aspect of medicine and takes a piece of the action. They are the bookie taking their 20% on every transaction and forcing the hospitals and providers to spend time and money dealing with them. They are also one of the main reasons administrative costs are so high inflating the cost of healthcare for everyone. The insurance industry is a leach on the healthcare system that currently employs 100s of thousands of people and will be very difficult to expunge.
dknightd wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:08 pm
IMO medical professionals are in cahoots with insurance providers. As near as I can tell both make more money than I ever did. Perhaps that is justified. But I see greed from both sides. Insurance companies want to make money. Doctors want to make money. Hospitals want to make money. It is natural.
Believe me, medical professionals are far from cahoots with those crooks. Sure everyone wants to make an extra buck but we would prefer if things were different.
I am sure I’ve been called names occasionally in the past, but “Mr.” has never been one of them.

Insurance is here to stay, but undoubtedly can be improved upon in terms of both quality and costs. As is true for the other components of our health care system.

And if you are going to make an argument, then the language you use is important. Misusing it undercuts your point.
I have found Bogleheads to be very intelligent, educated, diligent, and fact based. I try to double check all facts in my responses. :D I've been called out before and appreciated being corrected on a fact. Opinions are another matter.

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