Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

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Jimsad
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Jimsad »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:51 am
Elysium wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:34 am Oh boy, this is indeed an eye popping discussion. I used to think American way was all supposed to be about getting independence and living life your way. That meant when you are young working hard, earn and spend your own dime, getting yourself up by the bootstraps, and go where you wish to go. Have we come to the point where young people have all become dependent on parents to support them through life :shock:

It's one thing to provide the occasional support or gift to your adult children, but another to support them until they are 'settled' fully in life.

Boy, am I glad our HS aged son keeps telling us he doesn't need a thing from us, and will go his own way at the earliest possible. I get a feeling sometimes he is saying that to get away from being accountable for the time being :wink: but that still makes he happy that I will one day be free to pursue my own hobbies and not working until I croak to pay for adult children to 'settle' in life :oops:
My uncle, one of my closest friends in the world, was basically booted out of the house at 14 when my grandfather remarried and his new wife did not want a kid in the home. He eventually moved in with an aunt in another state, joined the military, put himself through school, and is now a successful business owner who teaches at the local U on the side. Probably the best example of hard work and grit in my life. He told his kids that he'd pay for their college education because his own father didn't help him at all...of course it didn't stop there. His kids are now 30, 27, and 25. All 3 of them still live with him, the 30 and 25yr old are married (so they are in their childhood bedrooms with their spouse), and the 30yr old just had his first child. Only the 30yr old has graduated and finally recently got his first real job...and they bought a home, but as a rental as they continue living with my aunt and uncle. My uncle is nearing 60, as is his wife, and they are both starting to have some health issues but both continue working because they financially support the entire family. They also continue to live in the McMansion that they now have a difficult time maintaining because they have 5 other adults and an infant living with them. He really wants to downsize the home and stop working; he's just plain worn out.

Every time we have a family gathering he pulls me into a corner and tells me he is kicking them all out, but it never happens. They are essentially the family joke. An extreme example and just a single anecdote, but his kids have become my parenting nightmare. Over the last few years, every time we spend time with my uncle we come home and my wife and I have a discussion about what we can do to ensure that our kids do not become them. We will have the means our parents did not have, so we will be able to help out our kids, but where do you draw the line?
This is exact kind of scenario I am worried about , more than me , my DW.
All said and done, it will be very hard for anyone to turn away their kids
Elysium
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Elysium »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:51 am
Elysium wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:34 am Oh boy, this is indeed an eye popping discussion. I used to think American way was all supposed to be about getting independence and living life your way. That meant when you are young working hard, earn and spend your own dime, getting yourself up by the bootstraps, and go where you wish to go. Have we come to the point where young people have all become dependent on parents to support them through life :shock:

It's one thing to provide the occasional support or gift to your adult children, but another to support them until they are 'settled' fully in life.

Boy, am I glad our HS aged son keeps telling us he doesn't need a thing from us, and will go his own way at the earliest possible. I get a feeling sometimes he is saying that to get away from being accountable for the time being :wink: but that still makes he happy that I will one day be free to pursue my own hobbies and not working until I croak to pay for adult children to 'settle' in life :oops:
My uncle, one of my closest friends in the world, was basically booted out of the house at 14 when my grandfather remarried and his new wife did not want a kid in the home. He eventually moved in with an aunt in another state, joined the military, put himself through school, and is now a successful business owner who teaches at the local U on the side. Probably the best example of hard work and grit in my life. He told his kids that he'd pay for their college education because his own father didn't help him at all...of course it didn't stop there. His kids are now 30, 27, and 25. All 3 of them still live with him, the 30 and 25yr old are married (so they are in their childhood bedrooms with their spouse), and the 30yr old just had his first child. Only the 30yr old has graduated and finally recently got his first real job...and they bought a home, but as a rental as they continue living with my aunt and uncle. My uncle is nearing 60, as is his wife, and they are both starting to have some health issues but both continue working because they financially support the entire family. They also continue to live in the McMansion that they now have a difficult time maintaining because they have 5 other adults and an infant living with them. He really wants to downsize the home and stop working; he's just plain worn out.

Every time we have a family gathering he pulls me into a corner and tells me he is kicking them all out, but it never happens. They are essentially the family joke. An extreme example and just a single anecdote, but his kids have become my parenting nightmare. Over the last few years, every time we spend time with my uncle we come home and my wife and I have a discussion about what we can do to ensure that our kids do not become them. We will have the means our parents did not have, so we will be able to help out our kids, but where do you draw the line?
That's quite some story. Supporting college education is fine, after that may be some support to get started in life such as loan a bit money to buy a starter car, or a rental home, and eventually a wedding gift etc. Although these things should not be expected, rather given as a bonus gift. When I was young and we got married, I refused to accept gifts given to me by parents and uncles, because I felt it was my responsibility to build it all by ourselves. Later on I mellowed down from that point of view, but at one time it was important for me to have my own dignity, which meant not accepting any gifts from anyone. `

It is important to draw the line to ensure children get to stand on their own feet. It is not a question of whether parents have the means, it is about the dignity of the children themselves. Adult children should not be needing to live with their parents, there are jobs available, perhaps not enough to support the lifestyle they want, and that is exactly what gives them the motivation to improve that life by working hard.

I would be very uncomfortable if adult children were living in my house, let alone with a spouse. If they are not ready to support a home they are not ready to be married. Confronted with that option I don't know what exactly I would do, but that would certainly start a struggle where I would confront them to pull themselves up, even at the risk of losing relationship, because to me it is so important to have adult children lead their own life and have dignity even if that meant them not speaking to me again. One day they will come back and thank the parents for teaching them that.
Elysium
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Elysium »

Jimsad wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:56 am
stoptothink wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:51 am
Elysium wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:34 am Oh boy, this is indeed an eye popping discussion. I used to think American way was all supposed to be about getting independence and living life your way. That meant when you are young working hard, earn and spend your own dime, getting yourself up by the bootstraps, and go where you wish to go. Have we come to the point where young people have all become dependent on parents to support them through life :shock:

It's one thing to provide the occasional support or gift to your adult children, but another to support them until they are 'settled' fully in life.

Boy, am I glad our HS aged son keeps telling us he doesn't need a thing from us, and will go his own way at the earliest possible. I get a feeling sometimes he is saying that to get away from being accountable for the time being :wink: but that still makes he happy that I will one day be free to pursue my own hobbies and not working until I croak to pay for adult children to 'settle' in life :oops:
My uncle, one of my closest friends in the world, was basically booted out of the house at 14 when my grandfather remarried and his new wife did not want a kid in the home. He eventually moved in with an aunt in another state, joined the military, put himself through school, and is now a successful business owner who teaches at the local U on the side. Probably the best example of hard work and grit in my life. He told his kids that he'd pay for their college education because his own father didn't help him at all...of course it didn't stop there. His kids are now 30, 27, and 25. All 3 of them still live with him, the 30 and 25yr old are married (so they are in their childhood bedrooms with their spouse), and the 30yr old just had his first child. Only the 30yr old has graduated and finally recently got his first real job...and they bought a home, but as a rental as they continue living with my aunt and uncle. My uncle is nearing 60, as is his wife, and they are both starting to have some health issues but both continue working because they financially support the entire family. They also continue to live in the McMansion that they now have a difficult time maintaining because they have 5 other adults and an infant living with them. He really wants to downsize the home and stop working; he's just plain worn out.

Every time we have a family gathering he pulls me into a corner and tells me he is kicking them all out, but it never happens. They are essentially the family joke. An extreme example and just a single anecdote, but his kids have become my parenting nightmare. Over the last few years, every time we spend time with my uncle we come home and my wife and I have a discussion about what we can do to ensure that our kids do not become them. We will have the means our parents did not have, so we will be able to help out our kids, but where do you draw the line?
This is exact kind of scenario I am worried about , more than me , my DW.
All said and done, it will be very hard for anyone to turn away their kids
If you truly love them, then you need to teach them to stand on their own feet and have dignity for their own life, even at the risk of confronting them about it. That is the responsibility of a parent, not enabling them. That said, I have a wealthy friend who is supporting his children through graduate schools and beyond, and already plans to spend large sum for weddings, but that's because it's all within his means, and his children are hard working and going to be well off on their own. In this instance parents are happily giving what the children don't need, because they have the means, and it improves the kids life at this stage. They are fully well capable of supporting themselves in the event parents decided they wish to not work anymore. But my friend enjoys doing what he does and not forced to work.
SrGrumpy
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by SrGrumpy »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:51 am [All 3 of them still live with him, the 30 and 25yr old are married (so they are in their childhood bedrooms with their spouse), and the 30yr old just had his first child.
Perfectly normal!
KlangFool
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by KlangFool »

JoeRetire wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:22 am
bampf wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:18 amI agree with this. Help is one thing. A lot of help is another. It sort of presumes that the value of a thing is the thing itself. Sometimes true. However, I believe the value of a thing is the effort you employ to get that thing. Hard to feel the pride of accomplishment and attainment of one's goals when it is the cashing of a gift. Adversity comes in many forms.
Thus gifts have no value. An interesting point of view.
JoeRetire,

Besides that, it may have a negative value.

Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The system works to ensure fairness and equality. My family history of 2,000+ years proved that.

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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by KlangFool »

Jimsad wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:56 am
This is exact kind of scenario I am worried about , more than me , my DW.
All said and done, it will be very hard for anyone to turn away their kids
Jimsad,

Whoever said that parenting is easy? Doing the right thing is easy?

Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The mistake repeats itself all the time. It is nature's way to get rid of rich family and legacies. It works very well.

My rich multi-millionaire uncle's children lived off the wealth. They are not as accomplished as their father. My poor uncle's children are self-made millionaires. Some never graduated high school.

I did not work as hard as my parents. And, my children would not strive as hard as I am. Only when the future generation drops into abject poverty, the cycle may repeat itself.

The story repeated itself many times across 2,000+ years of my family history.

KlangFool
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by TN_Boy »

Jimsad wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:26 pm Hi .
I would like to know how others feel about this .
We are doing fairly well in terms of meeting our financial goals .
We have kids still in school (middle and high).
Whenever , I feel that may be we can ease up a little bit and cut down on the work , my DW reminds me that our kids are a long way from being settled in life and she feels it is our responsibility till the end to make sure they are settled in life and we cannot relax till then (another 10-12 years at least ).
We plan to help them by Paying for most of their education but my DW feels that itself is not enough and it is our responsibility to make sure they ‘settle ‘ well in life .
How do others feel about this ?
If you have enough money, sure you can claim FI. How much money do you have :happy

I would say (and this topic comes up occasionally and can get heated) I think the best gift you can give a child is teaching them to be independent. I'm not convinced that helping them financially a lot after college is the way to do that. Why work hard when mommy and daddy will help pay for stuff?? But opinions differ; it's not really a financial question.
jambadoc
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by jambadoc »

I would read The millionaire next door with your wife. I would especially read the chapter on economic outpatient care. At some point continuing to provide for adult children's needs actually hurts them. That specific point will be different from person to person, but continuing to provide care into their late 20s or 30s seems likely beyond that point.
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alec
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by alec »

Jimsad wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:26 pm Hi .
I would like to know how others feel about this .
We are doing fairly well in terms of meeting our financial goals .
We have kids still in school (middle and high).
Whenever , I feel that may be we can ease up a little bit and cut down on the work , my DW reminds me that our kids are a long way from being settled in life and she feels it is our responsibility till the end to make sure they are settled in life and we cannot relax till then (another 10-12 years at least ).
We plan to help them by Paying for most of their education but my DW feels that itself is not enough and it is our responsibility to make sure they ‘settle ‘ well in life .
How do others feel about this ?
My kids are the same aged as yours. My wife and I started talking to the kids about expectations for college and after. It’s pretty cool how reasonable and intelligent the kids have been. It also helps that we live in a smallish house and share bathrooms, so it’s easy to start with “if you want your own bathroom one day..” I’d get on the same page as your wife, and then talk to the kids.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair
JackoC
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by JackoC »

Jimsad wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:26 pm
Whenever , I feel that may be we can ease up a little bit and cut down on the work , my DW reminds me that our kids are a long way from being settled in life and she feels it is our responsibility till the end to make sure they are settled in life and we cannot relax till then (another 10-12 years at least ).
Others called this weird, but my own wife says also uses the phrase 'until they are settled' often, though the context isn't exactly the same. I see this feeling and 'FI" as being separate things however, even if related. We've been retired awhile. One kid still lived at home at our retirement and others had stints coming back home for awhile. My wife means it in the sense of 'a feeling of peace and readiness to move on (even from this life if that's how it is)' not a test for whether we're ready to stop working, which we clearly were and are from the numbers.

People can disagree on both what's 'FI' and their responsibility to adult kids. But I see financial independence as mainly a numbers thing and responsibility to kids mainly a values thing, definitely not the same thing. We reached 'FI' after deducting for education expenses we still planned to pay, and also assuming our *free choice* to spend some $'s of a given budget to help kids rather than on ourselves, even now with all of them living on their own with decent jobs. And the plus/minus of that also depends a lot if it's a little help, but much less than what they'll eventually receive when we die, v help that can't be sustained once the parents are gone.

The key obviously is if the two spouses see eye to eye. Other people's opinions like 'well I worked the docks when I was 11', 'oh, that's very admirable' (IOW 'who cares?'). :happy
dbr
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by dbr »

If your wife wants the security of you continuing to earn a large income and you want relief from the stress, time, and effort involved, then the two of you are going to have to work it out. Note that how much money is needed to do what is a highly fluid and relative thing.

It isn't clear if this is debate about how hard and how long both of you have to work or only just you. It could be a compromise would be to put the onus on your wife to provide for these contingencies. Then again that might be taken very badly. But this is a relationship problem and not a financial problem.

To answer the question in the header the answer is that certainly it is possible to claim financial independence with kids in school if you have enough money relative to what you think you might need to spend. I also know people who have severely compromised their own retirements by trying to subsidize children that they couldn't afford to subsidize. It can work the other way as well.
bampf
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by bampf »

JoeRetire wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:22 am
bampf wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:18 amI agree with this. Help is one thing. A lot of help is another. It sort of presumes that the value of a thing is the thing itself. Sometimes true. However, I believe the value of a thing is the effort you employ to get that thing. Hard to feel the pride of accomplishment and attainment of one's goals when it is the cashing of a gift. Adversity comes in many forms.
Thus gifts have no value. An interesting point of view.

Or, you know, you could read the whole quote.
traveler901
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by traveler901 »

What your wife is implying is that she wants to pay for their college, their post-grad if they want, a house for them, car after college, wedding, etc. etc.

You need to discuss that with her and get on the same page.
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by HawkeyePierce »

My parents let me live at home for six months after college to juice my savings. I had joined a consulting company and was off at the client during the week anyways so I was barely there.

After that, I was out. They made it clear that if I’m on the verge of homelessness I can move back in, otherwise I’m an adult and can provide for myself. A fair arrangement IMO. It balanced giving me an initial boost with building my own life, since the assistance was in the form of reduced expenses (no rent) rather than cash gifts.

That arrangement let me start my adult life with $15k of my own savings in the bank which has been a huge leg-up ever since, plus I earned it myself. A lot of my financial stability in the last 8 years comes from that.

My point, OP, as others have said, is that you can provide assistance without compromising your own financial goals. Doing so is likely better for you and better for your children.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by JoeRetire »

bampf wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:25 pm
JoeRetire wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:22 am
bampf wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:18 amI agree with this. Help is one thing. A lot of help is another. It sort of presumes that the value of a thing is the thing itself. Sometimes true. However, I believe the value of a thing is the effort you employ to get that thing. Hard to feel the pride of accomplishment and attainment of one's goals when it is the cashing of a gift. Adversity comes in many forms.
Thus gifts have no value. An interesting point of view.

Or, you know, you could read the whole quote.
You stated what you believe. I believe it doesn't make sense.

I read the whole quote. Perhaps you don't believe what you actually wrote.
It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | It's the end of the world as we know it. | And I feel fine.
mak1277
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by mak1277 »

My kid will be 2 when I retire.

I have set aside a (generous) allowance for his college education above and beyond what is needed for our retirement. But beyond that, and assuming there are no special needs down the road, I am not worried about retiring before he's even in kindergarten.
HomeStretch
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by HomeStretch »

IMO you both have reasonable points. Your spouse wants to be supportive until the youngest is launched from college in 10-12 years. You want to cut back on working when your retirement portfolio is “enough” or on track to be “enough”. Sounds like you both need to discuss this further to better understand each other’s position and come to an understanding.

Have you done any retirement projections? If your current portfolio is 33x your net spending (including supporting kids until launched), likely you can cut back on work and reduce contributions to savings. If you are at 5x, continuing to save is necessary. Does your spouse work outside the home? If not, spouse could do so to help you both reach financial independence sooner.
latesaver
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by latesaver »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:04 am I have to ask, have I missed that people "claim" financial independence? Are there t-shirts?

Don't people just retire/stop working?
+1

I have this vision in my head that people want to put a sticker on their car or a flag on their balcony.
SGM
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by SGM »

I have seen the following efforts to help grown children in our extended family.

1. Set up 529s for grandchildren or pay tuition directly
2. Pay daughter in law to stay at home with young children instead of working
3. Give child the family home or sell it to child at a very low price
4. Pay for graduate or professional school
5. Pay down payment on a house
6. Pay for college degree for son in law
7. Help start a business for son in law
8. Pay medical care directly
9. Gift up to 30,000 a year from a couple to a grown child
10. Gift income property or business.
11. Buy long term care insurance for child

Several family members have chosen not to retire at all. Work can be fun and not too demanding for some folks. A lot of BHs don't like their work, but there is another point of view. I wouldn't argue with anyone including family members about these choices. I retired a few years before I planned to, but still many people told me I was too young to retire. I retired at the right time for me, but could have done so earlier, but I was still having fun in my third career.
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PhysicianOnFIRE
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by PhysicianOnFIRE »

Of course, you can. One of my pre-FIRE goals was to have 6-figure 529 plans for each of our two sons. We met that goal, along with between 40x and 50x our anticipated annual spending in our own nest egg.

I planted my FI flag firmly in the ground and walked away from work to enjoy the remaining 8 to 10 years we have left with our boys living with us.

:beer
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EnjoyIt
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by EnjoyIt »

Jimsad wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:11 am
JoeRetire wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:02 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:16 am Working a few more years is likely 6 figures. What in earth could you think you should provide to an independent child that has that magnitude of cost?
There are plenty of thing that could be expensive. Depending on how tight the FI budget is, they could easily derail plans.
- education expenses
- delayed independence of the children
- housing
- medical issues
- marriages, divorces
- grandchildren issues
- etc, etc.

The earlier you retire, the bigger the risk of unexpected financial burden. The more years you are exposed to such risks, the higher the probability.
The issues highlighted by Joe Retire above,

"- delayed independence of the children
- housing
- medical issues
- marriages, divorces "

All of these may apply to grandchildren also if we live long enough . So no end in sight? :(
This forum has a lot of vocal pessimism. It sort of catches onto you and breads more pessimism. If you read long enough, you will find more and more examples of why you can never retire and must work until you stroke out or have a heart attack. I'm sorry to be blunt, but that is idiotic thinking that creates more harm than good.

I'm just going to list a few food for thought items:
  • If you give too much to your kids without letting them figure out and fend for themselves, there is a good chance you will have them financially enslaved to your wallet their entire lives.
  • Time spent with your kids, teaching them, being with them, having fun with them is far more valuable than helping them furnish their apartment.
  • Although helping your kids out financially in some way is nice, it does not mean you have to pay for everything. Be reasonable about your choices and let them fend for themselves. It is your responsibility to teach them to become self sufficient, not pay their way through life.
  • There are plenty of very successful people who grew up in poor households who did not have much financial assistance from their parents. Giving them money is not a recipe for success.
  • If you feel you have enough money now to sustain your current life, then maybe work another 2-4 years to let the nest egg grow a little more, build a little cushion and then retire. This does not have to be an all or nothing.
My advice for you is to see where you are at right now regarding current expenses and possible future expenses. Be realistic. There is no need to plan for solar flares burning down your house. Or the Russians invading your home city. Agree to allot $X a month you are willing to spend on your kids as they get into college and beyond if giving them financial gifts is so important to you. Realize that you are spending a certain amount of money on your kids right now every month. Many of those expenses will disappear once they launch. You can transfer those dollars to assist them financially in other ways you see fit. Understand that if your money is left invested it will grow over the years. I suggest creating a spread sheet that shows growth of 2%, 3%, 4%, and 5% growth over the next few years. Discuss this with your spouse and get a realistic plan that is far better than working for another 10-12 years.

Just to let you know, I will be in my 60s when we would become empty nesters (done with high school) and I'll me damned if someone is going to make we work full time well past that. In fact I should be well retired from my current career way before then.

Good luck with whatever you come up with. Sounds to me like you may have a few years to chisel out a legitimate plan.
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FoolMeOnce
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by FoolMeOnce »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The mistake repeats itself all the time. It is nature's way to get rid of rich family and legacies. It works very well.
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The system works to ensure fairness and equality.
It certain can pass 3 or more generations. It just isn't guaranteed.
KlangFool
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by KlangFool »

FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The mistake repeats itself all the time. It is nature's way to get rid of rich family and legacies. It works very well.
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The system works to ensure fairness and equality.
It certain can pass 3 or more generations. It just isn't guaranteed.
FoolMeOnce,

Out of my family history of 2,500+ years, the historical record shows that the likelihood of passing more than 3 generations is small. In any case, by the 5th or 6th generations, it will be gone. I am the 169th generation. So, we have a fair amount of sample size.

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FoolMeOnce
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by FoolMeOnce »

KlangFool wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:01 am
FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The mistake repeats itself all the time. It is nature's way to get rid of rich family and legacies. It works very well.
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The system works to ensure fairness and equality.
It certain can pass 3 or more generations. It just isn't guaranteed.
FoolMeOnce,

Out of my family history of 2,500+ years, the historical record shows that the likelihood of passing more than 3 generations is small. In any case, by the 5th or 6th generations, it will be gone. I am the 169th generation. So, we have a fair amount of sample size.

KlangFool
I understand that is your family's experience, and is probably the experience of many families. My only point is that does not make it an absolute rule the way you wrote it.
KlangFool
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by KlangFool »

FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:05 am
KlangFool wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:01 am
FoolMeOnce wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:30 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The mistake repeats itself all the time. It is nature's way to get rid of rich family and legacies. It works very well.
KlangFool wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 am Wealth does not pass 3 generations. The system works to ensure fairness and equality.
It certain can pass 3 or more generations. It just isn't guaranteed.
FoolMeOnce,

Out of my family history of 2,500+ years, the historical record shows that the likelihood of passing more than 3 generations is small. In any case, by the 5th or 6th generations, it will be gone. I am the 169th generation. So, we have a fair amount of sample size.

KlangFool
I understand that is your family's experience, and is probably the experience of many families. My only point is that does not make it an absolute rule the way you wrote it.
FoolMeOnce,

We are arguing a minor point that does not make a difference.

Wealth does not pass the nth generation. It may not be the 3rd. It could be the 5th or the 6th. It won't last.

The most famous ancestor among my family died of abject poverty. But, his words and deed are followed by millions of people over thousands of years. That lasts. The wealth did not last.

KlangFool
nonfacebookuser365
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by nonfacebookuser365 »

Cut the cord when the kids reach age 18. Military service, working and loans are viable ways that they can finance any additional education.
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Jimsad
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Jimsad »

PhysicianOnFIRE wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:31 am Of course, you can. One of my pre-FIRE goals was to have 6-figure 529 plans for each of our two sons. We met that goal, along with between 40x and 50x our anticipated annual spending in our own nest egg.

I planted my FI flag firmly in the ground and walked away from work to enjoy the remaining 8 to 10 years we have left with our boys living with us.

:beer

I believe you still get a good chunk of income from your blogging income . So I do not think you are truly retired
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PhysicianOnFIRE
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by PhysicianOnFIRE »

Jimsad wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:47 pm
PhysicianOnFIRE wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:31 am Of course, you can. One of my pre-FIRE goals was to have 6-figure 529 plans for each of our two sons. We met that goal, along with between 40x and 50x our anticipated annual spending in our own nest egg.

I planted my FI flag firmly in the ground and walked away from work to enjoy the remaining 8 to 10 years we have left with our boys living with us.

:beer

I believe you still get a good chunk of income from your blogging income . So I do not think you are truly retired
Correct! If you've read anything I've written about it in recent months, you'd see that we agree. Half of it goes to charity, but the other half is enough to support our current standard of living. "Retired not retired" I call it (like the "sorry not sorry" pseudo-apologies) because I do spend a lot of time online, but it's nothing like the work I once did.

Doesn't change the fact that I retired from medicine or that a person can indeed claim FI with school-aged kids.

:beer
-PoF
Bronko
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Bronko »

StealthRabbit wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:00 am Yes, yes, YES... 1000 x yes... (FIRE ASAP!)

My idea... Not shared by many :mrgreen:
(I am the opposite of a conformist... ask my parents, teachers, bosses, spouse, friends, kids...) :wink:

1) Retire while your kids are home, go back to work (if you must) when they leave home!
2) Start a few family businesses that you can do together as a family (kids will learn a lot, and so will you)
3) Train kids to be financially independent very early. About age 12 is a good time, so as teenagers they can fund their own needs (especially clothes and sports),
4) Allow (require) kids to participate in budget, bill paying, travel planning, grocery shopping, and charitable giving. Help fund some of their choices / projects. Engage the entire family in international and local aid... volunteering in homeless shelters and orphanages. Gives them a very wide perspective. (and attitude adjustment)
5) Enable them to become Bogleheads. Ours started at age 12. 8 would have been better. (They had enough in Roth IRA's to fund their college, should they have chosen to use 'qualified' funds to do that. They chose loans (at 2.7%) because they were making much better returns in their investments (acceptable idea for parents as well). or... help them to pay off THEIR loans AFTER they graduate. (grows their personal responsibility and accountability)
6) Sit them down at age 12 and explain how THEY will be on the hook for their college costs (that gives them plenty of time to pursue many opportunities for vast options including FREE college (USA and abroad), employer reimbursed, military, loans, investments, J-O-B-S, grants...
7) Teach them some skills so they can get high paying jobs in HS and College (or run their own businesses).
8) Consider helping them grow a business / investments / skills to be fully self funded by High School. (ours designed built their own homes while in Jr High (family project)) We all helped each other, as we had just finished a family home a year earlier (together). One local 'home-school' started business now employs 100+ (in a community that really needs jobs) and has annual sales of $10m.
9) Spend whatever precious time you can with your very Short duration time at home with kids. POOF... they are GONE!!! (we lived and worked and volunteered internationally as a family)
10) Grow a heritage that will be healthy for your kids. Mine are FAR smarter about 'work-life' and recreation and social sensitivity that I ever was.

Kids are VERY resilient and creative. They will shine brightly as they are set free and trusted by you. (about age 12...)

Ours and most of their peers are nearing age 40, and have done very well with the above plan.

Socially engaged in their communities, secure in finances, employment (or companies they own), and have not rebelled (yet)...

great post.
Never let a little bit of money get in the way of a real good time.
Bronko
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Bronko »

EnjoyIt wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:05 am
Jimsad wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:11 am
JoeRetire wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:02 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:16 am Working a few more years is likely 6 figures. What in earth could you think you should provide to an independent child that has that magnitude of cost?
There are plenty of thing that could be expensive. Depending on how tight the FI budget is, they could easily derail plans.
- education expenses
- delayed independence of the children
- housing
- medical issues
- marriages, divorces
- grandchildren issues
- etc, etc.

The earlier you retire, the bigger the risk of unexpected financial burden. The more years you are exposed to such risks, the higher the probability.
The issues highlighted by Joe Retire above,

"- delayed independence of the children
- housing
- medical issues
- marriages, divorces "

All of these may apply to grandchildren also if we live long enough . So no end in sight? :(
This forum has a lot of vocal pessimism. It sort of catches onto you and breads more pessimism. If you read long enough, you will find more and more examples of why you can never retire and must work until you stroke out or have a heart attack. I'm sorry to be blunt, but that is idiotic thinking that creates more harm than good.

I'm just going to list a few food for thought items:
  • If you give too much to your kids without letting them figure out and fend for themselves, there is a good chance you will have them financially enslaved to your wallet their entire lives.
  • Time spent with your kids, teaching them, being with them, having fun with them is far more valuable than helping them furnish their apartment.
  • Although helping your kids out financially in some way is nice, it does not mean you have to pay for everything. Be reasonable about your choices and let them fend for themselves. It is your responsibility to teach them to become self sufficient, not pay their way through life.
  • There are plenty of very successful people who grew up in poor households who did not have much financial assistance from their parents. Giving them money is not a recipe for success.
  • If you feel you have enough money now to sustain your current life, then maybe work another 2-4 years to let the nest egg grow a little more, build a little cushion and then retire. This does not have to be an all or nothing.
My advice for you is to see where you are at right now regarding current expenses and possible future expenses. Be realistic. There is no need to plan for solar flares burning down your house. Or the Russians invading your home city. Agree to allot $X a month you are willing to spend on your kids as they get into college and beyond if giving them financial gifts is so important to you. Realize that you are spending a certain amount of money on your kids right now every month. Many of those expenses will disappear once they launch. You can transfer those dollars to assist them financially in other ways you see fit. Understand that if your money is left invested it will grow over the years. I suggest creating a spread sheet that shows growth of 2%, 3%, 4%, and 5% growth over the next few years. Discuss this with your spouse and get a realistic plan that is far better than working for another 10-12 years.

Just to let you know, I will be in my 60s when we would become empty nesters (done with high school) and I'll me damned if someone is going to make we work full time well past that. In fact I should be well retired from my current career way before then.

Good luck with whatever you come up with. Sounds to me like you may have a few years to chisel out a legitimate plan.
Solid points. Enabling kids by parenting them when they become young adults is like tying an anchor around the neck when you teach them to swim. If you don't teach anti-fragility, personal responsibility, and strength of body/mind early then you aren't really parenting. Sure you can continue to be the warm cozy blanket against hardship or let them come to mommy and daddy with every problem. It all depends what kind of human beings you want to send into the world. If something tragic happens to both parents wouldn't you want strong independent children who can handle life without the NEED of handouts?

Realistically looking back some of my hardest times when I had the least are the best memories. With hardship comes strength.

Or just plan to work until you die so they don't have to. What do I know.

I'll FI with kids in the house. With zero hesitation.

“If you want your children to turn out well, spend twice as much time with them, and half as much money.”

― Abigail Van Buren
Never let a little bit of money get in the way of a real good time.
Cascade425
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Re: Can you claim financial independence with kids still in school

Post by Cascade425 »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:30 pm
The best time to FIRE is when the kids left for college and the nest is empty.
That is our plan. Kids leave in 3 years. Then we work one more year to get a handle on what expenses look like for just the two of us. We assess the situation and see. I bet I retire first and my wife works 2-3 more years. We're close...
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