Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

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burgertimer
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by burgertimer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:59 pm

i did a prenup. fiancé wasn’t that happy but it’s not an issue now. truthfully after 10 years, we are doing ok, but i am glad that we have it.

once you talk to a lawyer in any fashion, your spouse will need a separate lawyer. supposedly if neither party talks to any lawyers, then you “might” be valid, assuming that both of you have a similar education.

we limited alimony to 4 years and separated assets at that time and gifts from parents. that being said, we’ve worked hard at maintaining each other’s careers. also, we don’t deposit anymore into those separate old accounts. all married stuff gets mixed together and there is no mine and not yours.

my lawyer said that child support is governed under other rules, it’s complex and maybe not try.

welsie
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by welsie » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:18 pm

I don't quite understand your rationale for the prenup. You are planning on working part time after the baby comes? I mean your income will drop and she will be the breadwinner...but you want to keep all of the premarriage assets you have separate? That seems like a very weird setup.

So to be clear, if you stopped working entirely to be with the child (or multiple kids) and you got $10K from granny after marriage, you would keep that money for yourself and not sock it away into your joint account? If you would treat that money as shared...then what does it matter if you received it before or after marriage? This all seems very arbitrary. I mean in that scenario her ability to save independently is being hobbled by your decision not to work...that doesn't seem very fair.

If you are planning a life together, especially where people's working lives are fungible to deal with raising kids, I think you are better off just treating all assets as shared. I mean if you stopped working, would you pay out of your pre-marriage assets to cover your "half" of the post-marriage household expenses? If so, then the assets are shared anyways, so why not just share them.

You guys have been together 10 years, have similar incomes and are planning on having children, how uncertain can you possibly be? To simplify this, just don't get married, problem solved. If you are getting married, consider the myriad or work life balance tradeoffs that both of you will need to raise children before doing what you are suggesting.

almostretired1965
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by almostretired1965 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:27 pm

From a financial and risk mitigation point of view, I think a pre-nup makes sense given the disparity in what the two of you bring on your own into the marriage. But as a matter of sentiment, it does feel rather hard-headed for what should be a true partnership, and after you have children, money will take a second seat anyway.

As for myself, when my wife and I married, I was an indebted grad student and she was a working professional with sizable assets from her own savings and gifts/inheritance from her family. She probably could have used a pre-nup, but it was never brought up, though I like to think I would have signed it if she thought it was necessary. Things evened out quickly after I joined the work force, though she put up nearly all of the down payment for our first house. 5 years ago we decided that it made sense for her to retire early since her job, while very rewarding, was highly stressful and emotionally draining. I was very happy to have afforded her that opportunity and our lives have been much more pleasant since she could now handle most of the mundane matters that arise in our household. In a way, it was my way of paying her back for the early years .....

Lots of up and downs over the years and we nearly broke up 15 years ago, but we are still together, nearly 30 years later. Not sure if we are happier than ever in the traditional sense, but we are certainly more content. I know that things can turn bitter if there are trust issues, but for us at least, even when we were contemplating divorce, things never got so bad that either of us thought a pre-nup, even in hindsight, would have been helpful. Your mileage may vary, however.

A

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sunny_socal
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by sunny_socal » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:30 pm

oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:58 pm
sunny_socal wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:56 pm
Why even bother getting married? You've been behaving like a married couple, is that not enough? (Note: I'm a strong advocate for marriage but in my mind planning a divorce doesn't square with the commitment you're supposedly making)

If you decide to get married anyway, don't get a prenup. It weakens your will because you've just left yourself a back door.
There's already an established legal process for ending a marriage. A prenup simply allows a couple of customize certain conditions.
That sounds rather clinical. What is the wife - just a source of income? Just an expense?

And someone else said: "If you're against prenups, don't post" So everyone should get a prenup? Everyone should plan in case they get divorced?

If you get married, don't plan on getting a divorce. Get married, stay married. Else don't get married. Simple! (That's what I teach my kids.)

delamer
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by delamer » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:28 pm

If you have inherited assets or savings that accumulated before your marriage that you want to keep control over in the event of divorce, then a prenup is a good choice.

I inherited money long after I married that I’ve kept in an account in my name only so I can decide how it is distributed upon my death. Assets accumulated during our marriage will be distributed according to an agreement that my husband and I came to and is incorporated in our wills.

It may be that my husband would get a larger part of our joint assets in the event of divorce due to my having a large inheritance, and I am OK with that.

My marriage didn’t suffer because I kept my inheritance separate. Yours doesn’t need to because you have a prenup.

As others have noted, you and your fiancee each need your own attorney to negotiate the terms.

Good luck.

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mrspock
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by mrspock » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:25 pm

junior wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:44 pm
mrspock wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:21 pm
knightrider wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:53 am
OriolesFan89 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:01 am
Hers - $175k in assets. No debt. $105k salary.
His - $825k plus about $100k of equity in our $325k house that I've lived in for 7 years. No debt aside from mortgage. $120k salary.
I am no expert, but doesn't sound like a prenup is needed for this situation. Since you both earn similar amounts, then there is nothing really to split between you. My understanding is any assets you have before marriage will remain yours.
Oh, oh let me help! What happens when:

1. You divorce and one of you quit working ? Is spousal support due? How much? For how long?

2. Capital gains on house and investments held prior? Are they yours? Split down the middle?

3. Kids — If you split, are you paying for their college? How much? For how long ? Private school?

4. Inheritance — how will this all work?

.... I could go on, and lawyers will have a far longer list. It’s not just about income, it’s about expectations.
I don't even think that a prenup can legally cover child support or whether college will be paid for, your kids won't be parties to it and the child has rights you can't sign away.
A very fair point, perhaps at least make sure both parties are on same page when it comes to kids and everything that goes with them (if the intent is to have a family).

Personally... I’d just avoid the entire enterprise of marriage. :)

oldfatguy
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:58 pm

sunny_socal wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:30 pm
oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:58 pm
sunny_socal wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:56 pm
Why even bother getting married? You've been behaving like a married couple, is that not enough? (Note: I'm a strong advocate for marriage but in my mind planning a divorce doesn't square with the commitment you're supposedly making)

If you decide to get married anyway, don't get a prenup. It weakens your will because you've just left yourself a back door.
There's already an established legal process for ending a marriage. A prenup simply allows a couple of customize certain conditions.
That sounds rather clinical. What is the wife - just a source of income? Just an expense?

And someone else said: "If you're against prenups, don't post" So everyone should get a prenup? Everyone should plan in case they get divorced?

If you get married, don't plan on getting a divorce. Get married, stay married. Else don't get married. Simple! (That's what I teach my kids.)
Marriage is a legal contract. Nothing more, nothing less. Any contract can be broken by either party, so regardless of your intentions or desires, you may end up divorced. It takes two parties to agree to the marriage, but only one to dissolve it.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:21 pm

sunny_socal wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:30 pm
oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:58 pm
sunny_socal wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:56 pm
Why even bother getting married? You've been behaving like a married couple, is that not enough? (Note: I'm a strong advocate for marriage but in my mind planning a divorce doesn't square with the commitment you're supposedly making)

If you decide to get married anyway, don't get a prenup. It weakens your will because you've just left yourself a back door.
There's already an established legal process for ending a marriage. A prenup simply allows a couple of customize certain conditions.
That sounds rather clinical. What is the wife - just a source of income? Just an expense?

And someone else said: "If you're against prenups, don't post" So everyone should get a prenup? Everyone should plan in case they get divorced?

If you get married, don't plan on getting a divorce. Get married, stay married. Else don't get married. Simple! (That's what I teach my kids.)
That is the most unrealistic comment so far. Not everyone is you. And marriages fail. Accept it and move on please. Or please don’t post in a prenup thread.

dekecarver
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by dekecarver » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Prenups; ah you don't need it until you wished you had it. My sixty year old friend in his first marriage with a 14 year old (his) just told me tonight he is getting a divorce. Life changing event by all accounts, I guess retirement will be delayed :oops: Don't know if he has a prenup, I hope so.

basspond
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by basspond » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:13 pm

So you have been dating for almost 10 years, living together for 6 (your information is confusing, you say three years but you say you moved in together in 2013), combining expenses and investments, you are calling your assets "ours" and you are asking if you should do a prenup?

Its good that you are taking the next step but after 10 years you know what your decision should be. Have a great marriage!

NoFred
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by NoFred » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:39 pm

Tamarind wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:40 pm
You sound a lot like my wife and I:
* Early 30s
* Been together many years already
* Have shared home and expenses, if not accounts
* Both frugal and savers
* One has somewhat more assets

I also came here to ask about a prenup (free free to read my old thread). The forum talked me out of it and I'm glad they did.

This tidbit was the decider for me:
If one of you decides to go "nuclear" in a divorce, a prenup will not save you. You can spend plenty of money just as easily challenging or defending the the prenup as you can on a divorce without one.

Go ahead and have the conversations you'd want to have to draft a prenup. Talk about what fair means to each of you. Draw up financial disclosures for each other that establish your pre-marital financial situations. (We got ours notarized.) Think hard about your level of trust in each other, your ability to argue without getting too furious. Promise each other that in the event of a divorce you'll get mediation, keep your pre-marital property, split all the marital property down the middle (or however you both think is fair), and spend as little time with lawyers as possible even if you have each other's guts.

Then skip the prenup.

Prenups do make sense for the following:
*Non-egalitarian couples with drastically different financial situations (ie one will stop working and give up marketable skills in return for a commitment to be provided for by the other).
*People getting married for the second time who already have children.
*People who will likely inherit very large sums, family businesses, etc
*People who own large, illiquid assets (ie businesses and land)
*People who have some other reason that the normal "fair" distribution rules of divorce are not right for them.

ETA: age
+1 fantastic summary imo
-NoFred

Katietsu
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by Katietsu » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:53 pm

welsie wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:18 pm
I don't quite understand your rationale for the prenup. You are planning on working part time after the baby comes? I mean your income will drop and she will be the breadwinner...but you want to keep all of the premarriage assets you have separate? That seems like a very weird setup.

So to be clear, if you stopped working entirely to be with the child (or multiple kids) and you got $10K from granny after marriage, you would keep that money for yourself and not sock it away into your joint account? If you would treat that money as shared...then what does it matter if you received it before or after marriage? This all seems very arbitrary. I mean in that scenario her ability to save independently is being hobbled by your decision not to work...that doesn't seem very fair.

If you are planning a life together, especially where people's working lives are fungible to deal with raising kids, I think you are better off just treating all assets as shared. I mean if you stopped working, would you pay out of your pre-marriage assets to cover your "half" of the post-marriage household expenses? If so, then the assets are shared anyways, so why not just share them.

You guys have been together 10 years, have similar incomes and are planning on having children, how uncertain can you possibly be? To simplify this, just don't get married, problem solved. If you are getting married, consider the myriad or work life balance tradeoffs that both of you will need to raise children before doing what you are suggesting.
This.

I think with the scenario described and your young age, it will be difficult to come up with a prenup that is more fair than the decision of the “divorce court.” So, if you still want this, each get your own lawyers and do what feels right to you. Just think about how fair the prenup will seem if one sacrifices career advancement to move for the other or take care of kids. Or if spouse A owns a rental but spouse B takes over management of it. Or one of you becomes disabled. It is not easy to do “fair” a couple of decades in advance.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by EnjoyIt » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:35 pm

Katietsu wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:53 pm
welsie wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:18 pm
I don't quite understand your rationale for the prenup. You are planning on working part time after the baby comes? I mean your income will drop and she will be the breadwinner...but you want to keep all of the premarriage assets you have separate? That seems like a very weird setup.

So to be clear, if you stopped working entirely to be with the child (or multiple kids) and you got $10K from granny after marriage, you would keep that money for yourself and not sock it away into your joint account? If you would treat that money as shared...then what does it matter if you received it before or after marriage? This all seems very arbitrary. I mean in that scenario her ability to save independently is being hobbled by your decision not to work...that doesn't seem very fair.

If you are planning a life together, especially where people's working lives are fungible to deal with raising kids, I think you are better off just treating all assets as shared. I mean if you stopped working, would you pay out of your pre-marriage assets to cover your "half" of the post-marriage household expenses? If so, then the assets are shared anyways, so why not just share them.

You guys have been together 10 years, have similar incomes and are planning on having children, how uncertain can you possibly be? To simplify this, just don't get married, problem solved. If you are getting married, consider the myriad or work life balance tradeoffs that both of you will need to raise children before doing what you are suggesting.
This.

I think with the scenario described and your young age, it will be difficult to come up with a prenup that is more fair than the decision of the “divorce court.” So, if you still want this, each get your own lawyers and do what feels right to you. Just think about how fair the prenup will seem if one sacrifices career advancement to move for the other or take care of kids. Or if spouse A owns a rental but spouse B takes over management of it. Or one of you becomes disabled. It is not easy to do “fair” a couple of decades in advance.
What about the half million OP is bringing into the marriage. 20 years from now that is worth $2 million and they get divorced needing to split it in half.

Even if the odds of divorce for this person is 10% that is still too much to risk losing $1 million.

AlphaLess
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by AlphaLess » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:49 pm

knightrider wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:53 am
OriolesFan89 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:01 am
Hers - $175k in assets. No debt. $105k salary.
His - $825k plus about $100k of equity in our $325k house that I've lived in for 7 years. No debt aside from mortgage. $120k salary.
I am no expert, but doesn't sound like a prenup is needed for this situation. Since you both earn similar amounts, then there is nothing really to split between you. My understanding is any assets you have before marriage will remain yours.
That assumes that they are really careful and don't co-mingle.

Also, that assumes that one of that does not hit a jackpot and starts making 10x of what she or he is making today in a couple of years.
"A Republic, if you can keep it". Benjamin Franklin. 1787. | Party affiliation: Vanguard. Religion: low-cost investing.

ucla-engineer
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by ucla-engineer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:01 am

Silence Dogood wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:39 pm
WingsFan4Life wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:14 pm
Give it time :twisted:
oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:14 pm
That's likely because many of them are more recently married and won't get divorced for another 5-10 years. :P
deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:15 pm
... the oldest millennial isn't even 40 so how would such a poll be conducted practically
I would encourage you to look at the statistics.

The divorce rate for millennials is lower and it has nothing to do with the fact that millennials are still young.
Lower doesn't mean 0%. People buy flood insurance expecting a .2-1% chance of needing it. Divorce rates are considerably higher. A protracted legal battle can cost all the combined assets. Spend a few $k up front and keep the lawyers out of it should the worst happen. Also, you will both need separate representation.

Silence Dogood
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by Silence Dogood » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:26 am

ucla-engineer wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:01 am
Silence Dogood wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:39 pm
WingsFan4Life wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:14 pm
Give it time :twisted:
oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:14 pm
That's likely because many of them are more recently married and won't get divorced for another 5-10 years. :P
deltaneutral83 wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:15 pm
... the oldest millennial isn't even 40 so how would such a poll be conducted practically
I would encourage you to look at the statistics.

The divorce rate for millennials is lower and it has nothing to do with the fact that millennials are still young.
Lower doesn't mean 0%. People buy flood insurance expecting a .2-1% chance of needing it. Divorce rates are considerably higher. A protracted legal battle can cost all the combined assets. Spend a few $k up front and keep the lawyers out of it should the worst happen. Also, you will both need separate representation.
Again, context.

I was not using this fact to justify not getting a prenup.

I was simply refuting the (false) claim that divorce is becoming more prevalent.

Momus
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by Momus » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:35 am

Please get a prenup and disregard the naysayers. What worked for them may not be in your best interest. You don't gamble on your investment, you do not gamble $1M to red. 60 yrs is a long time.

Don't be stupid. Protect what you have. You never know what happens in the future. Anyone of you can get bored later and get a divorce (many do).
Last edited by Momus on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

EnjoyIt
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by EnjoyIt » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:36 am

Even a prenup that only dictates that they both agree to arbitration without litigation is better than what is available in every state. Ideally every marriage should have such a clause so as to keep their savings out of the hands of third parties.

Flyer24
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Re: Prenuptial agreement for moderately successful 30 year olds

Post by Flyer24 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:55 am

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