POA Reimbursement

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TinyTim
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POA Reimbursement

Post by TinyTim » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm

I have unrestricted Power-of- Attorney for my elderly mother, who has dementia and is unable to make any financial decisions. She lives in an Adult Family Home and I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc. The POA document does not specify reimbursement for being POA. Am I able to pay myself any reimbursement from my mother's accounts for being her POA? I'm assuming that a reasonable fee is allowed.

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bengal22
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by bengal22 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm

I am POA for my elderly mom and I plan to reimburse myself once I exceed all of the time and effort and money that she put into my first 18 years. She will be 107 when that occurs.
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dbr
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by dbr » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:31 pm

There are more informed people on this forum about this than I am, but as far as I know there is no assumption of reimbursement for a person that has POA. In fact any payment to yourself, even a reimbursement for expenses for the grantor, can end up getting questioned. I have POA for a person who receives Medicaid subsidized care of various kinds and I can tell you the county department of social services periodically examines his finances and can be very nasty about seeking justification for any item of money paid to me. I mostly just give this person things at my own expense rather than try to document where the money went if there is any possible appearance that money went to me. I know, for another example, that a designated payee for receiving Social Security payments, which I have been, needs to submit an annual accounting showing that all receipts were paid out for the benefit of the beneficiary. That does not mean paying the designated payee for their services is explicitly illegal as far as I know, but I sure would not try it.

Note while a POA has a power to handle the affairs of another person, they are not obligated to do anything. I couldn't say if there are legal hazards of omission for a POA.

All of this is different for an executor or a trustee where it is standard that a fee might be charged to the estate.

I'll be interested to hear what the experts say about this.

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HueyLD
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by HueyLD » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:53 pm

TinyTim wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm
I have unrestricted Power-of- Attorney for my elderly mother, who has dementia and is unable to make any financial decisions. She lives in an Adult Family Home and I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc. The POA document does not specify reimbursement for being POA. Am I able to pay myself any reimbursement from my mother's accounts for being her POA? I'm assuming that a reasonable fee is allowed.
It depends on whether your state has adopted UPOAA (Uniform Power of Attorney Act) and other specifics for your own state. You need to consult an attorney in your state before paying yourself for doing the job of a POA.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:03 pm

A POA in and of itself doesn't generally state this. But a caregiver agreement would. If you plan to compensate yourself be prepared to justify in writing why you were paid (i.e., how many hours, what services, does it match what the caregiver agreement says what functions, frequency, etc and what rate is reasonable...consistent with what someone would be paid to perform similar services).

however, re-reading your post, I doubt your mom could consent to a caregiver agreement at this point because of her dementia, so I don't think it would be considered valid.

If you are considering this route, you should consult an elder law attorney in the event you'd need to apply for medicaid for skilled care in the future. You wouldn't want any transfers of assets to be considered gifting which could create a period of ineligibility.
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HomeStretch
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by HomeStretch » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:05 pm

+1 on consulting an elder care attorney to discuss what is reasonable, how to document, etc. Especially if your mother does not have the capacity to agree to the compensation.

I think you need to consider whether you need the reimbursement money, are there heirs/family members to her estate beside you, does she receive Medicaid benefits where Medicaid might question the reimbursement, etc.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:16 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm
I am POA for my elderly mom and I plan to reimburse myself once I exceed all of the time and effort and money that she put into my first 18 years. She will be 107 when that occurs.
This!

OP,

I would think expenses you might spend on behalf your mother could be reimbursed, but it seems you are asking if you could pay yourself for administering your mothers POA....

I had my father's financial POA, and I was his trustee and executor of his estate, and I was entitled to be paid for my activities, according to his trust/will documents.

The only things I actually charged for any of these activities was for the purchase of a couple of new paper shredders I paid for out of his estate.

Honestly, I couldn't have charged anything to administer his affairs in good conscience. I was proud of his trust in me handling his affairs, as he was always generous with his children, and grandchildren.

My siblings and I maintained excellent relationships before and after his death, and primarily it was because of the complete transparency and exact treatment of all his children in terms of inheritance.

Now, OP, if being her POA causes you expenses, like losing a day's pay, traveling to handle issues if you weren't local, things like that might run into some serious expenses to you, reimbursement wouldn't be just paying you to be her POA.

I'm sure others could feel differently, but that is the way I feel/felt.

Broken Man 1999
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dbr
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by dbr » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:32 pm

What I know from experience is that POA can be a burdensome obligation that sometimes has to be done just because it does. I have POA for someone who should logically be looked after by another person who can't or won't do it and so I do it. But I would never imagine that somehow I should be paid for this.

That does bring up that it is possible to pay people for these things. A person who can't or doesn't want to handle the affairs of a person who can't manage their own affairs can get a court to declare incompetence and appoint a guardian. A court appointed guardian would be paid. I doubt trying to turn a POA into getting oneself appointed as a professional guardian would fly, nor should it.

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TinyTim
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by TinyTim » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:55 pm

My mother's POA is for Washington State.

bberris
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by bberris » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:33 am

The professional court-appointed guardians are a shady bunch. A few have gone to jail for abuse of the elderly. Judges were apparently complicit in getting these aholes appointed.

As POA, all expenses should be documented. I think paying yourself for time crosses the line. What will the other beneficiaries think of this? These payments could also jeopardize a future Medicaid qualification.

johnnyc321
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by johnnyc321 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:56 am

bberris wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:33 am
The professional court-appointed guardians are a shady bunch. A few have gone to jail for abuse of the elderly. Judges were apparently complicit in getting these aholes appointed.

This is rare and in most cases where a professional guardian is appointed, it was because of litigation or when there was no one else. At least this is the case in Florida. Don’t believe the media hype.

johnnyc321
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by johnnyc321 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:58 am

Most POA statutes provide that the agent is entitled to a reasonable fee. And of course you are entitled to reimbursement for costs incurred by you individually. Consult a local lawyer. Every state is different.

Geologist
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Geologist » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:43 am

Beyond the pure legalities, there are other considerations particularly for payments beyond out-of-pocket reimbursements. Some of these have been touched on, at least indirectly by earlier posters. First, are you an heir. Are their other heirs? What will other heirs, if there are any, think about your paying yourself for doing this work?

I not only had POA for my mother, but was handling her financial affairs for a number of years. She urged me to let her pay me, but I declined because my brother would have become upset that I was being paid and he wasn't. The potential for rupturing my relationship with my brother wasn't worth the money I would have received.

Second, payments beyond expense reimbursement are taxable income to you. On the other hand, inheritance is likely to be non-taxable.

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cheese_breath
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:56 am

TinyTim wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm
I have unrestricted Power-of- Attorney for my elderly mother, who has dementia and is unable to make any financial decisions. She lives in an Adult Family Home and I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc. The POA document does not specify reimbursement for being POA. Am I able to pay myself any reimbursement from my mother's accounts for being her POA? I'm assuming that a reasonable fee is allowed.
Why would you want to? Has she asked you to reimburse her for all the time and money she spent raising you?
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

drawpoker
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:04 pm

TinyTim wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm
.....I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc.....I'm assuming that a reasonable fee is allowed.
You seem to be lumping everything you do into one category deserving of compensation. Which, apparently, is not kosher.

Yes, you are the only one who can pay bills (use money from her accounts) But, errands, driving her to appointments, etc. are tasks that anyone can do, they don't have to hold POA. So, you better tread very carefully if you are thinking of some sort of hourly rate for these things.

This explains it better.

https://www.themckenziefirm.com/power-o ... mpensated/

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David Jay
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by David Jay » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:12 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm
I am POA for my elderly mom and I plan to reimburse myself once I exceed all of the time and effort and money that she put into my first 18 years. She will be 107 when that occurs.
Wow, you were a low maintenance kid. :D
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cashboy
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by cashboy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:43 pm

TinyTim wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm
I have unrestricted Power-of- Attorney for my elderly mother, who has dementia and is unable to make any financial decisions. She lives in an Adult Family Home and I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc. The POA document does not specify reimbursement for being POA. Am I able to pay myself any reimbursement from my mother's accounts for being her POA? I'm assuming that a reasonable fee is allowed.

i was POA for my father who was not a pleasant man (enough said). i spent 100s of hours, and some of my own money (in the way of travel, supplies, etc.) looking after his affairs while he was alive. i took nothing for it (and was content with that).

i would suggest that you let your conscience be your guide.
Last edited by cashboy on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dm200
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by dm200 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:47 pm

One potential risk is that when she dies, others who receive any proceeds of her estate might take exception to such reimbursement.

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FIREchief
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by FIREchief » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:18 pm

dm200 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:47 pm
One potential risk is that when she dies, others who receive any proceeds of her estate might take exception to such reimbursement.
Yep, I could certainly see that happening! :P

That said, from a practical standpoint, how would anybody ever know? Let's say I'm granted a DPOA for a mentally incapacitated person. There is no court involvement, and I have full access to all assets. As may be very common, I'm also nominated in the will to serve as executor. I decide that it's wearing me out and that I need a couple weeks in Hawaii to recuperate, so I reimburse myself for the costs incurred. Unless somebody became suspicious and got the courts involved, wouldn't it all be just between me, God and the soon-to-be decedent that I might have to face on the other side? I'm seriously asking because I don't know. I have read that granting somebody DPOA is essentially giving them a legal right to steal from you. :annoyed
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by dbr » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:47 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:18 pm
dm200 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:47 pm
One potential risk is that when she dies, others who receive any proceeds of her estate might take exception to such reimbursement.
Yep, I could certainly see that happening! :P

That said, from a practical standpoint, how would anybody ever know? Let's say I'm granted a DPOA for a mentally incapacitated person. There is no court involvement, and I have full access to all assets. As may be very common, I'm also nominated in the will to serve as executor. I decide that it's wearing me out and that I need a couple weeks in Hawaii to recuperate, so I reimburse myself for the costs incurred. Unless somebody became suspicious and got the courts involved, wouldn't it all be just between me, God and the soon-to-be decedent that I might have to face on the other side? I'm seriously asking because I don't know. I have read that granting somebody DPOA is essentially giving them a legal right to steal from you. :annoyed
As I posted before a person applying for or receiving public benefits, Medicaid in particular, may find their finances under scrutiny for income and asset limits. In my experience when those people see things they are very persistent in understanding exactly who is taking money out for what. The issue, however, only extends to considerations of benefits eligibility and not whether or not all the siblings are getting equal shares or something like that.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Geologist » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:09 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:18 pm
dm200 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:47 pm
One potential risk is that when she dies, others who receive any proceeds of her estate might take exception to such reimbursement.
Yep, I could certainly see that happening! :P

That said, from a practical standpoint, how would anybody ever know? Let's say I'm granted a DPOA for a mentally incapacitated person. There is no court involvement, and I have full access to all assets. As may be very common, I'm also nominated in the will to serve as executor. I decide that it's wearing me out and that I need a couple weeks in Hawaii to recuperate, so I reimburse myself for the costs incurred. Unless somebody became suspicious and got the courts involved, wouldn't it all be just between me, God and the soon-to-be decedent that I might have to face on the other side? I'm seriously asking because I don't know. I have read that granting somebody DPOA is essentially giving them a legal right to steal from you. :annoyed
My late mother’s POA (naming me as agent) says that the agent must use due care, act for the benefit of the principal, must keep her funds separate from the agent’s funds, and a court can take away the powers. In addition, I had to sign that I would keep a full and accurate record of all actions, receipts and disbursements on behalf of the principal.

Anyone with an interest could demand this accounting. Who has an interest? potential heirs to the estate who can go to court and demand an accounting. If the heirs (especially if they are siblings) become suspicious, then they are likely to want to see an accounting.

In extreme cases, people have gone to prison for violating the terms of POA's (look up Brooke Astor).

Beyond that, an executor is not a dictator. They have even greater rules for accounting for their actions. This is especially true if the decedent dies in a state with inheritance/estate taxes, because using estate assets for your example of a recuperation trip would lead to tax evasion.

Whether some people can get away with things with POA is not material. People get away with breaking many laws; that doesn't make it legal or right.

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:28 pm

You may be able to bill your mother for services that you provide that you/she otherwise would have to pay for. In fact if there are several adult children but only one is doing all the caregiving tasks, billing for services now is better than trying to negotiate a bigger share of the estate later.

You would need to do it formally though. Document your time, report your earnings, pay taxes.

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FIREchief
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by FIREchief » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 pm

Geologist wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Whether some people can get away with things with POA is not material. People get away with breaking many laws; that doesn't make it legal or right.
I don't believe I've seen a single post in this tread where somebody suggested it would be "legal or right." Not sure what your point is here.....
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Gnirk
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Gnirk » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:23 pm

What does the POA say about reimbursements?

I was POA for my mom with dementia. She also was in a care home for 8 years and I was responsible for managing her health care, doctor's appointments, purchasing her clothing and depends, and all financial matters.

I reimbursed myself for anything I purchased directly for her use. Before she moved to the care home near me, I had to drive 2 hours, including a ferry commute, to her island home to take her to doctor's appointments, prepare meals for her, take her to the bank and grocery shopping. I was fortunate that I could take whatever time off from work was needed to do this.

I kept a monthly spreadsheet of all expenses and income, just in case my brother wanted to know the details.

I wouldn't have even considered paying myself for the time spent managing her care and financial matters.

However, if you need to be paid for your time and expertise, then please see an attorney to draw up formal documents, claim the income you receive as POA and pay taxes on it.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Geologist » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:07 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 pm
Geologist wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Whether some people can get away with things with POA is not material. People get away with breaking many laws; that doesn't make it legal or right.
I don't believe I've seen a single post in this tread where somebody suggested it would be "legal or right." Not sure what your point is here.....
You are the one who suggested that a POA "is essentially giving them [the agent] a legal right to steal from you." I was just pointing out that it isn't.

However, it could be said that this is straying from the OP's question, which has to do with whether he or she can be reimbursed for work and then the related question of whether or not it is a good idea.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:28 pm

Gnirk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I reimbursed myself for anything I purchased directly for her use......I kept a monthly spreadsheet of all expenses and income....
Not quite understanding why you did it this way. Maybe the laws in Wash state are different? How did you reimburse yourself, by writing out checks payable to you?

Here, the 1st thing upon being designated POA for my dad was follow instructions from family lawyer. To go to the bank with the document and have his accounts changed over and re-titled as "John Doe" and "Mary Doe Smith, attorney-in-fact for John Doe ". Then all bills were paid by writing checks from checking account.

I suppose there might be some occasion where you would need to use cash (like tipping a taxi driver or delivery person)
Still, I was advised it would be better to write a check with "for petty cash fund" in memo line and use that $$ for those occasions. Of course, goes without saying to be sure and keep a ledger of petty cash disbursements with the dates and purposes.

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FIREchief
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by FIREchief » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:26 pm

Geologist wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:07 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 pm
Geologist wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Whether some people can get away with things with POA is not material. People get away with breaking many laws; that doesn't make it legal or right.
I don't believe I've seen a single post in this tread where somebody suggested it would be "legal or right." Not sure what your point is here.....
You are the one who suggested that a POA "is essentially giving them [the agent] a legal right to steal from you." I was just pointing out that it isn't.

I suggested no such thing. I merely shared that this is something I read. Somebody else's extreme illustration, likely to just make a point that granting a DPOA is a risky move that should be approached with extreme caution.
I have read that granting somebody DPOA is essentially giving them a legal right to steal from you. :annoyed
However, it could be said that this is straying from the OP's question, which has to do with whether he or she can be reimbursed for work and then the related question of whether or not it is a good idea.
Agreed.
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by TN_Boy » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:27 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:28 pm
Gnirk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I reimbursed myself for anything I purchased directly for her use......I kept a monthly spreadsheet of all expenses and income....
Not quite understanding why you did it this way. Maybe the laws in Wash state are different? How did you reimburse yourself, by writing out checks payable to you?

Here, the 1st thing upon being designated POA for my dad was follow instructions from family lawyer. To go to the bank with the document and have his accounts changed over and re-titled as "John Doe" and "Mary Doe Smith, attorney-in-fact for John Doe ". Then all bills were paid by writing checks from checking account.

I suppose there might be some occasion where you would need to use cash (like tipping a taxi driver or delivery person)
Still, I was advised it would be better to write a check with "for petty cash fund" in memo line and use that $$ for those occasions. Of course, goes without saying to be sure and keep a ledger of petty cash disbursements with the dates and purposes.
I do precisely what Gnirk does. Track expenses I pay for out of my own pocket (typically things like grocery stores runs or other shopping expeditions for the benefit of the POA) where I prefer to use credit cards. The key here is to not combine shopping trips -- I'm buying as POA for somebody else, don't put stuff for me on that trip. Many expenses are paid out of the POA bank accounts (using a billpay mechanism rather than actually writing a check whenever possible).

Well not precisely. All income (SS, etc) is deposited directly into the appropriate POA bank account, so I don't track that in a spreadsheet. I just track things I pay for as POA.

And yes, I write a check to myself and deposit in MY account.... from myself as POA from the POA checking account ... for the expenses amount I paid every month.

If I wanted to abuse the POA, I could simply combine a shopping trip for the POA person and myself and write one check for everything. It is certainly true someone with POA could abuse it in ways that would be hard to track. I do what is simpler for me -- since I'm doing the work -- and maintain records. In addition to the spreadsheet, I keep hard copies of utility bills and such.

To answer the question in the OP, I don't pay myself any reimbursement for POA duties (or anything else I do for the person). I do let them buy me lunch when visiting.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Gnirk » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:36 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:28 pm
Gnirk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I reimbursed myself for anything I purchased directly for her use......I kept a monthly spreadsheet of all expenses and income....
Not quite understanding why you did it this way. Maybe the laws in Wash state are different? How did you reimburse yourself, by writing out checks payable to you?

Here, the 1st thing upon being designated POA for my dad was follow instructions from family lawyer. To go to the bank with the document and have his accounts changed over and re-titled as "John Doe" and "Mary Doe Smith, attorney-in-fact for John Doe ". Then all bills were paid by writing checks from checking account.

I suppose there might be some occasion where you would need to use cash (like tipping a taxi driver or delivery person)
Still, I was advised it would be better to write a check with "for petty cash fund" in memo line and use that $$ for those occasions. Of course, goes without saying to be sure and keep a ledger of petty cash disbursements with the dates and purposes.
I used my credit card when I purchased special clothing for my mom online, and for her doctor visit co-pays; these were the items I was reimbursed for. Yes, I wrote myself a check for reimbursement for those expenses. Otherwise I used her checking account on which I was a signer to purchase depends and over-the-counter medications for her.

BTW, I eventually used the powers of the DPOA to set up a revocable living trust for her that followed the terms of her will in order to designate an alternate trustee since I was the only POA because I was concerned about who would manage her care and finances if something should happen to me. I then transferred all of her assets to the living trust.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Ged » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:44 pm

bengal22 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm
I am POA for my elderly mom and I plan to reimburse myself once I exceed all of the time and effort and money that she put into my first 18 years. She will be 107 when that occurs.
I think that is a likely understatement.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by Artful Dodger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16 pm

I was POA for my mom the last four years of her life when she had dementia. I certainly reimbursed myself for any expenses, bills, etc I paid on her behalf. It would have never occurred to me to charge her for my time.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 am

TinyTim wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 pm
... She lives in an Adult Family Home and I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc...
Are wives more deserving than mothers? I ask because DW lives in a nursing home, and "I take care of bills, errands, doctor appointments, etc.". I even do her laundry because the detergents in nursing homes are too hard on her skin. Maybe I should charge her for that time too plus the All free and clear. She has two bank accounts in her name only with money she inherited from her mother. As her POA should I reimburse myself from them? But dummy me, all I've done is add an occasional dollar to each to keep them from going dormant and move one into a CD to earn her a little more than she was making before.

I know the husband has more legal obligations to the wife than to the mother, but what about the moral ones?
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:49 am

I think cheese_breath has stated the case very well, bravo.

If you are POA for a loved one it seems somewhat distasteful to expect to be paid just for your time. Being reimbursed for purchases paid for out of your own pocket for some reason is different.

But, if the POA is in such dire circumstances him/herself that they really could use some extra money - the loved one would be aware of that at the time of signing the POA, wouldn't they? Then some financial arrangement could be worded into the document to allow for regular payment for time spent.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 am

I know the husband has more legal obligations to the wife than to the mother, but what about the moral ones?
Yes, I would say the moral/ethical obligations to a spouse are much greater than to a parent.

If I was in a position to be providing a significant level of care for either of my parents, I think it would be very reasonable to expect to be compensated.

drawpoker
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:19 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 am
If I was in a position to be providing a significant level of care for either of my parents, I think it would be very reasonable to expect to be compensated.
Are you a doctor? Nurse?

Seems like managing financial affairs is a whole lot different that "providing significant level of care" :?:

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:28 am

It is not the POA activities OP was really asking about, it is the caregiving activities. But the POA can decide whether those services should be compensated. Different family dynamics and individual circumstances will come into play, but Medicaid has recognized family provided care as a valid expense. Again, documented and reported as income.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:29 am

oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 am
cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 am

I know the husband has more legal obligations to the wife than to the mother, but what about the moral ones?
Yes, I would say the moral/ethical obligations to a spouse are much greater than to a parent.

If I was in a position to be providing a significant level of care for either of my parents, I think it would be very reasonable to expect to be compensated.
And the significant level of care they've provided for you? Have you compensated them for that?
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:46 am

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:28 am
It is not the POA activities OP was really asking about, it is the caregiving activities. But the POA can decide whether those services should be compensated. Different family dynamics and individual circumstances will come into play, but Medicaid has recognized family provided care as a valid expense.....
Apples and oranges. The Medicaid angle you refer to is when the person is still living in the family home. The OP posted his mother is in an adult care home for her dementia.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 am

Not money Medicaid would pay, but payments they would not count as gifts.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:01 pm

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 am
Not money Medicaid would pay, but payments they would not count as gifts.
Very, very slippery slope. Definitely need advice of elder care attorney on that.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by straws46 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:13 pm

Can you? See RCW 11.25.120. Should you? ???

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:22 pm

You left off a decimal. For the people looking it up now it is Chap. 11.125 RCW

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:14 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:19 am
oldfatguy wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:15 am
If I was in a position to be providing a significant level of care for either of my parents, I think it would be very reasonable to expect to be compensated.
Are you a doctor? Nurse?

Seems like managing financial affairs is a whole lot different that "providing significant level of care" :?:
There are many types of caretaking beside medical care. There are lots of people who do get paid to manage other people's financial affairs, help with chores around the house, etc.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:17 pm

cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:29 am

And the significant level of care they've provided for you? Have you compensated them for that?
As a parent, I have absolutely no expectation that my child should have to take care of me, and would strongly discourage her from doing so if/when the time comes. I chose to have and raise a child, and do not think she has any obligation whatsoever to compensate me for that.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by andypanda » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:32 pm

If you take money for your time, is it taxable income? If it's taxable, wouldn't you be better off inheriting it later? Of course I am an only child and had POAs for both my parents, so whatever I did wouldn't come back to bite me... unless it was the IRS.

I don't know the answers. I moved my parents to the retirement community on short notice at my father's request. He went into assisted living and mom went into the nursing home. He lived there for 4.5 years and I ran errands, took him to lunch, bought things, etc. He gave me his 6-month-old car and gave me money every month. My driving time alone was 4 to 5 hours every Friday just for lunch. He liked to pay his own way.

My mother lived there 9.5 years, most of it in a coma from dementia. I did not take any money for the 5 years after my father died. She wasn't capable of making a legal gift.

Speaking of Social Security. As her representative, I had to file a form every year stating how much of her SSA retirement I spent on her. There was one guy in an office somewhere out to get me for a couple of years because I would write on the reporting form that I spent ZERO on her. Her social security accumulated in the bank where SSA sent it every month because all of her bills were paid by a trust that was required to support her, etc. The guy would call me up from time to time and grill me... and then get frustrated to the point that he would yell into phone, "Trust, trust, trust all you ever say is trust."
Okay guy, so sue me. He never did.

I actually spent a lot of my own money on $100 flower arrangements on holidays and birthdays. I knew my mother didn't know I'd sent them or even what a flower was anymore, but the staff and other residents loved them and had my permission to take the nice vases and baskets home.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by drawpoker » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:48 pm

andypanda wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:32 pm
.....actually spent a lot of my own money on $100 flower arrangements on holidays and birthdays. I knew my mother didn't know I'd sent them or even what a flower was anymore.....
Don't be so sure. She may have known on some mysterious level that dementia sufferers do reach from time to time. But just not possible to communicate her emotions to others. Visual cues, esp. concerning holidays, can at times trigger actual memories for Alzheimer patients.

Anyway, bravo to you, you sound like a straight-up sort of guy! (Or girl)
Last edited by drawpoker on Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dbr
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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by dbr » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:48 pm

andypanda wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:32 pm

Speaking of Social Security. As her representative, I had to file a form every year stating how much of her SSA retirement I spent on her. There was one guy in an office somewhere out to get me for a couple of years because I would write on the reporting form that I spent ZERO on her. Her social security accumulated in the bank where SSA sent it every month because all of her bills were paid by a trust that was required to support her, etc. The guy would call me up from time to time and grill me... and then get frustrated to the point that he would yell into phone, "Trust, trust, trust all you ever say is trust."
Okay guy, so sue me. He never did.
They should be calling you up to get an explanation of what is happening. It is appropriate that you be able to show that her needs have been met and that the money left over is saved or invested for the benefit of the recipient. It is appropriate because it is the law. They should not be yelling at you.

You have not misused these funds but in the event one did it is not sue but rather "The penalty upon conviction for a payee's misuse of funds may be a fine of up to $250,000, imprisonment up to 10 years, or both." Fraud and misuse of Federal benefits is a big deal and should have people employed to prevent it.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by andypanda » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:32 pm

"They should be calling you up to get an explanation of what is happening."

The explanation was written on the form every year.
1. A trust is paying all of her bills.
2. Her SSA money is in the account where you send it every month. Every penny.

Seriously, he reminded me of the SNL character yelling, "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger."

Once or twice I considered spending every penny on flowers. Weekly deliveries to her room, the day room where they pushed her wheelchair, the dining room where they fed her every bite and maybe even the bathroom. It probably would have taken multiple weekly deliveries, but the staff would have had the burden of watering them, cleaning around and under them and picking them up when someone knocked them over. Great people, good folks. The Virginia Mennonite Retirement Community in Harrisonburg.

I worked for the state for 38.5 years. Trust me, I have a full understanding of bureaucratic regulations and bureaucratic nonsense and which is which.

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Re: POA Reimbursement

Post by TCB » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:14 pm

....
You’re talking about charging your mother.

IT’S YOUR MOTHER!!!!

:oops: :oops: :oops:

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